The Rationale behind Karma Theory

[sravna]

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Let me clarify what I said in my previous post that it is the effect of karma that one is acting, thinking or doing something. Actually I think karma is only one component, the other is the free will. But you earn your free will by being attracted to and doing good karma. As the good karma accumulates the free will increases. To acquire free will in the first place one needs external guidance and when the external guidance is strong enough to break the negative make up of a mind and appeal to the mind, is when the soul will begin to be released of the bondage and begin to acquire free will. When the soul is liberated it has complete free will.

 

[Raji Ram]

.......... By the way one gentleman from mumbai who raised his voice against such beliefs was knocked off by so called believers. I am hoping I do not meet a similar fate

Dear Krish Sir,

Please do not join any get together in Sing. Chennai! :nono:

It might be a trap for you!! :lol:

P.S: This post is not serious but just for kidding!

 

[sarang]

Bharat is a gnana bhoomi, karma bhoomi and punya bhoomi; many rishis, saints, philosophers, poets, azhwars and nayanmars have not only extolled the spiritual nature of this land, but also have express their desire to be born again in this punya bhoomi.

It is natural for weeds to grow in a flower garden, but our system and thinking allow all forms and thoughts to live side by side.

Just as certain times are considered auspicious, certain places are sacred. India is one such place because so many towering spiritual personalities were born here and I do not think it is a coincidence that so many people of immense depth can be born here if the place does not have sacredness about it. I fully second Shri KRN's view that India is a punya bhoomi and one has to be blessed to be born in India

 

[prasad1]

Sravnaji,
You ignored my post:
http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/genera...tionale-behind-karma-theory-4.html#post257826

I still want you to answer my simple question.
If you are born you are not yet blessed? That is the contention of Adi Shankara.
So your philosophy of Advaita does not support your contention in this post.
Brahman does not see territorial boundaries.
Except for the EGO of the person proclaiming one to be better than other, there is no acceptable scale.
It is totally arrogance to claim superiority over any one else. It only goes to show that the person is not evolved enough to be a jivan mukta.
Balanced mind, equal vision, indifference to pairs of opposites like pleasure and pain, censure and praise, heat and cold, success and failure-these are the marks of a Jivanmukta. Jivanmuktas are not frightened or astonished at any unusual occurrence in nature. They will never be disconcerted even should the sun grow cold, or the moon turn hot, or the fire begin to burn with its flame downwards, or the course of the river begin to rise upwards. The Jivanmukta is not perturbed under any condition. He is undistracted amidst distractions.

The difference between the unfortunate and the Jivanmukta is that the former is in a pitiable condition for he is caught up in the web of his desires while the Jivanmukta is worthy of reverence for he has become free from all desires. The unfortunate one has many ambitions to fulfil but being dependent on destiny, he is unable to attain what he wants. While a Jivanmukta has no desires, unaffected by karma, he is able to absolutely remain in his aspired blissful state of witnessing.
In Gita 2.57 Krishna says


yaḥ sarvatrānabhisnehas
tat tat prāpya śubhāśubham
nābhinandati na dveṣṭi
tasya prajñā
“We are talking about a person who maintains Sthitprajna – absolute steady state of mind – no thoughts – one-pointed. The question is how would he behave? In this Sloka they say that he is not attached to anything – total Vairagya. For him, good and evil are the same. With both, good behaviour and bad behaviour, he will not react. This is a very very important point. The moment bad comes in front of us we are protective, because we are attached to our body, our peace, our happiness, our health. So we are very protective towards our body, our self. A Sthitprajna is not even attached to his body.

If Krishna thought that India was punyabhoomi He would have said that as a precondition for attaining the state of Sthitprajna. OH of course Duryodhana too was born in India.

Everyone claims that they are proud of their country, which is good. But that is purely at the worldly level.
For a spiritual person of your stature,...................................NO

 

[krish44]

Dear Krish Sir,

Please do not join any get together in Sing. Chennai! :nono:

It might be a trap for you!! :lol:

P.S: This post is not serious but just for kidding!

Ha Ha Ha

Raji Ramji I could appreciate your gentle kindal

What I meant was some members of this forum would not have relished my post as they are keen believers in karma theory and rebirth, I could arouse their negative

feelings.People do not like their basic beliefs to be challenged

When anyone does so , he is subjected to a close scrutiny.

 

[tks]

The topic of this thread probably has been discussed many times in the past probably in many sections in various threads. I therefore did not read the posts except to scan since it fascinates me why this topic fascinates so many people.

It is old wine in new bottle since there is a collective monolog in progress as it does on most such threads with topic area being Karma whatever the word may mean to anyone.

It is also fascinating to me that the same words like Karma, Punya and Papa are used to support own world view.

When one sees contradiction it may mean contradiction in the way these topic area is 'preached' and/or contradictions in own understanding of this topic area.

I am not being cynical or want to say anything against the collective monologs iin progress . Just find that 'same old same old' repetitions are so fascinating to the same people .. over and over.. What are they searching for - only the elusive God knows LoL

May more posts and threads on this continue - with that prayer let me close!

 

[sarang]

If one takes a pan view, Hindus are more tolerant, less violent and more accommodating than members of other religions, communists and secularists. Entire culture, religion, ethnicity has been wiped out by these breed. One such event is now happening in Iraq. Physical elimination is the hallmark of some prominent religions and god negating parties. Need one say more.

Ha Ha Ha

Raji Ramji I could appreciate your gentle kindal

What I meant was some members of this forum would not have relished my post as they are keen believers in karma theory and rebirth, I could arouse their negative

feelings.People do not like their basic beliefs to be challenged

When anyone does so , he is subjected to a close scrutiny.

 

[sravna]

Sravnaji,
You ignored my post:
http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/genera...tionale-behind-karma-theory-4.html#post257826

I still want you to answer my simple question.
If you are born you are not yet blessed? That is the contention of Adi Shankara.
So your philosophy of Advaita does not support your contention in this post.
Brahman does not see territorial boundaries.
Except for the EGO of the person proclaiming one to be better than other, there is no acceptable scale.
It is totally arrogance to claim superiority over any one else. It only goes to show that the person is not evolved enough to be a jivan mukta.
Balanced mind, equal vision, indifference to pairs of opposites like pleasure and pain, censure and praise, heat and cold, success and failure-these are the marks of a Jivanmukta. Jivanmuktas are not frightened or astonished at any unusual occurrence in nature. They will never be disconcerted even should the sun grow cold, or the moon turn hot, or the fire begin to burn with its flame downwards, or the course of the river begin to rise upwards. The Jivanmukta is not perturbed under any condition. He is undistracted amidst distractions.

The difference between the unfortunate and the Jivanmukta is that the former is in a pitiable condition for he is caught up in the web of his desires while the Jivanmukta is worthy of reverence for he has become free from all desires. The unfortunate one has many ambitions to fulfil but being dependent on destiny, he is unable to attain what he wants. While a Jivanmukta has no desires, unaffected by karma, he is able to absolutely remain in his aspired blissful state of witnessing.
In Gita 2.57 Krishna says


yaḥ sarvatrānabhisnehas
tat tat prāpya śubhāśubham
nābhinandati na dveṣṭi
tasya prajñā
“We are talking about a person who maintains Sthitprajna – absolute steady state of mind – no thoughts – one-pointed. The question is how would he behave? In this Sloka they say that he is not attached to anything – total Vairagya. For him, good and evil are the same. With both, good behaviour and bad behaviour, he will not react. This is a very very important point. The moment bad comes in front of us we are protective, because we are attached to our body, our peace, our happiness, our health. So we are very protective towards our body, our self. A Sthitprajna is not even attached to his body.

If Krishna thought that India was punyabhoomi He would have said that as a precondition for attaining the state of Sthitprajna. OH of course Duryodhana too was born in India.

Everyone claims that they are proud of their country, which is good. But that is purely at the worldly level.
For a spiritual person of your stature,...................................NO

Dear Prasad,

I am not being biased when I say that a certain place has sacredness. After it if you believe in auspicious times why can't places be sacred. Something becomes holy when spirituality is associated with it. Spirituality is accorded this status because it is about universality and timelessness. So how can you explain the fact that spirituality took birth and thrived in India. I said one is blessed to be born in India because we naturally inherit the spiritual wisdom that has been to given to us from the past. Are we not lucky? But let me add that in the final analysis everything evens out.So I am talking about the current practical reality.

It may not be possible to practice advaita in its literal sense always. Remember this is a different yuga. Spiritualism is held at a lot lower respect than in other yugas. So to get across your message it may be necessary to lace pragmatism into your actions. You can still hold a steady state mind. The difference is you act according to the time.

 

[sangom]

Friends !

I happened to visit tbf after a long time and this thread caught my attention.

Karma theory and Advaita are two topics close to my heart. Therefore, I am trying to repeat what I have attempted to say - in this forum - many times in the past, with the hope that it resonates at least with some people.

The true Karma theory, in my view, is different from the one version that is ordinarily put forward in most cases. The major difference is that there is no jīvātmā which is different from the paramātmā or parabrahman in the true Karma theory. Everything is a manifestation of the one and only brahman. We are born as a result of our past Karmas and when we die, nothing else is left (no soul, jīvātmā, ātmā or mind etc.) except the cumulative Karmas which has been created at the end of our sojourn in the present life. This cumulative Karma causes another fresh birth somewhere and that new person experiences the results of some of the cumulative Karmas. During that birth also more Karmas are added on and the cumulative Karmas make yet another birth (may not necessarily be human; it could be any living organism.) and it is in this way that the gargantuan, yet majestic samsāra is played out in this make-believe stage of this universe.

The brahman which resides within each and every living (and non-living) entity in this universe is the agent which creates the impression that there is an entire universe out there, (through the sense organs) to each one of us. On our "death" this brahman simply dissociates from the physical body which then disintegrates according to the universal law applicable to it (the body) and its numerous components.

However, our great teachers and preceptors of yore probably thought it advisable not to divulge the truth in its entirety and preferred to explain with the concepts of a certain jīvātmā which has its own unique existence, etc., may be because they thought that ordinary folks like us will not bother to improve ourselves if we were to be told that "even if you commit all atrocities in this life, it will not be you who will reap the results thereof, but someone else". But this is the simple and profound truth. For all that we claim about India being puṇyabhūmi, karmabhūmi etc., from the brahman’s point of view this entire universe itself is a projection (like a modern hologram) and there is nothing more fundamental than the karma theory which even lay people of old used to sum up in the sentence உப்பை தின்றவன் தண்ணி குடிப்பான் (uppai tiṉṟavaṉ taṇṇi kuṭippāṉ).

 

[prasad1]

Welcome Sangomji.

this is the simple and profound truth. For all that we claim about India being puṇyabhūmi, karmabhūmi etc., from the brahman’s point of view this entire universe itself is a projection

Very appropriate rejoinder for Sravnaji's comment.
I think there are good and bad people everywhere in the world. Atmas take bodies according to previous karmas. It can be anywhere.

 

[KRN]

Even as I mentioned India is a Punyabhumi I also wrote that the statement is liable to be interpreted as jingoism by some. And coming back here after 24 hrs I find the word has become the new topic of discussion. Well the idea is... there is no *privilege* associated with the word and hence some of the criticism might be misplaced. There have been saints throughout the world - but here in India alone has been rigorous scientific study done for thousands of yrs on why and how such sages are produced. We have specialised on this topic. As for other nations their area of specialisation has been different. We speak in English a foreign language to many of us. That doesnt mean God has conferred a privileged position to English language or the English people over the rest of the world.

 

[KRN]

Old age is supposed to be the age of wisdom for many... still we dont say old age is the best period of our lives. We dont go jingoistic about old age. While it might be good in terms of knowledge and wisdom it also means diminished physical and mental abilities etc.

 

[krish44]

Welcome Sangomji.



Very appropriate rejoinder for Sravnaji's comment.
I think there are good and bad people everywhere in the world. Atmas take bodies according to previous karmas. It can be anywhere.

I have a simple belief . there is no previous or future births, when heart stops beating , man dies . when he is consigned




to flames , he is turned into ash . this one can immerse into a river one thinks holy and mourn for the dead. A simple belief of an uncomplicated humanbeing

 

[KRN]

Dear Srinivasan The lord says in the Geetha Yajna daana tapah karma na tyajyam karyameva tat Yajno daanam tapaschaiva paavanaani maneeshinaam (BG 18:05) There are numerous religions. Hindus revere the sages of all religions and accept that all religions lead to God. This is because of the above slokam - all religions in one way or the other consist of Yajnam Daanam and Tapas. So by performing the prescribed religious rules the antah karanam becomes pure. Once mental purity is attained... the inherent Jnaanam shines of itself. However this purity is reached much faster through nishkaama karmam. This is the secret of Bhagavad Gita and known only to Indian religions. This is the karma theory. Without doing nishkama karma mental purity cannot be attained. Jnanam will not arise unless the mind is purified. So karma is essential. As you said below - free will (which is a component of Jnanam) increases as the amount of positive karma increases. However there is a drawback also. When one does a lot of good karma - in the next birth the results are incurred in the form of Rajayogam Dhana yogam etc. Now these while being enjoyed also normally leads to a strong ego. Ego is considered the biggest obstacle to further progress. As you know it is very difficult to enjoy the good life and be extremely humble at the same time. The free will you refer to - is a component of Jnanam.

Let me clarify what I said in my previous post that it is the effect of karma that one is acting, thinking or doing something. Actually I think karma is only one component, the other is the free will. But you earn your free will by being attracted to and doing good karma. As the good karma accumulates the free will increases. To acquire free will in the first place one needs external guidance and when the external guidance is strong enough to break the negative make up of a mind and appeal to the mind, is when the soul will begin to be released of the bondage and begin to acquire free will. When the soul is liberated it has complete free will.

 

[V.Balasubramani]

Dear Krish Sir,

Please do not join any get together in Sing. Chennai! :nono:

It might be a trap for you!! :lol:

P.S: This post is not serious but just for kidding!

Some members may prove விட்டில் பூச்சி, requiring no one’s efforts to trap them lol!

 

[KRN]

Dear Sir There is no better belief/philosophy than that... if you are happy with it. All said and done...it is better to see reality as it is - rather than as theories.

I have a simple belief . there is no previous or future births, when heart stops beating , man dies . when he is consigned to flames , he is turned into ash . this one can immerse into a river one thinks holy and mourn for the dead. A simple belief of an uncomplicated humanbeing

 

[KRN]

To quote an Urdu couplet *we dont know from where we came we dont know where we go we dont know why we are herethis we know for sure - a womanz hot embrace is to be treasured*

 

[V.Balasubramani]

renukaji
all this karma theories are meant for the poor and the have not to make them reconcile to their poor lifestyle and accept their bad quality of living by the rich with the connivance of godmen. there is little or no basis for these theories . these poor and deprived are sold these theories to keep them from challenging the existent economic order and ensure that do not rebel and destroy it. slightly better off quote these theories to justify their incapability and inability to change their own life by concrete .action. the old quote these theories when ill treated by their daughter in laws. so cheer up . pl do not take it seriously.lol

In an earlier thread the very same member has quoted as under:

“we can hardly escape the karmas destined for us in this life and beyond”

http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/chit-chat/16393-2990-10.html

Members may think of Comeleon that change colour according to mood and here we have some who change their mind according to ….?????

 

[Jaykay767]

Totally second Sravna that India particularly south is apunya bhoomi & punya shetra. If you look at our past, almost everything hasbeen preserved & handed down through the generations despite the chaoticmiddle ages of invasions, wars, annihilation, etc..

Our sacred magical chants resonating through 1000s ofyears have saved us from the mess of war and disasters.., our civilization hasbeen preserved for us to decipher, learn & analyze this even further. Like ourancestors claim, these incantations do have magical powers… our Brahminancestors zealously guarded & saved all the grantha scripts, setupelaborate schools to preserve the chants through an extra-ordinary oraltradition, unmatched by anyone else !!

For people who are following my historical analysis, mycurrent view (still don’t have all the evidence to nail it), is Tamil &Kannada are the mythical Sumerian & Akkadian languages. Malayalam &Telugu are offshoots from these 2 languages. Sumerian & Akkadian are thetwins of the Mesopotamian civilization.

Why should we not be proud of our culture? And why peopleare feeling inferior to even claim this?

If you go to the west, they will openly tell – how proudthey are about their culture etc… similarly the middle easterns, the Japanese, Chineseetc…

Every race has reasons to be proud about itself, so nothingwrong in this. And no-one is insulting any other country, race or civilizationby claiming we are Great !!

 

[Jaykay767]

Vedas, Upanishads/Vedantas, Bagawad Gita/Karma/Dharma, Advaita are all crown jewels of our civilization !! Only those who have moved away from our culture, & developed inferiority complex, will give up their own identity, proud lineage, heritage & culture & follow others. Good thing is only a small minority of Indians are afflicted by this problem. Most of the folks I have ran into in the west across Bs, NBs, are very proud of their culture & they will mostly talk in Tamil, Telugu, Kannada, Malayalam etc… have their own associations proudly preserving the ancient traditions..

 

[krish44]

In an earlier thread the very same member has quoted as under:

“we can hardly escape the karmas destined for us in this life and beyond”

http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/chit-chat/16393-2990-10.html

Members may think of Comeleon that change colour according to mood and here we have some who change their mind according to ….?????

I might have been definitely at that point of time might have been a helpless frame of mind and gotten into a pessimistic mood relating to inevitability of some event


and hung up.

there is always a mood swing when one looks at brighter side of life and believe things can be changed by concrete action . one has to renew periodically and see the

positive aspect of living and believe in oneself to carry on . this is auto suggestion. if you start for looking at inconsistencies there might be many more. it is not worth

wasting your time on it.lol

 

[KRN]

Dear Sir Your words are golden. It is only in India that a philosophy like Advaita can flourish; whose acharya confidently exhorts :Advaitam is the supreme truth; but dwaitam has a place as a *bhedam* to Advaitam. Let the dwaita vadis of all sorts quarrel between themselves; we dont have to quarrel with any of them.

Bharat is a gnana bhoomi, karma bhoomi and punya bhoomi; many rishis, saints, philosophers, poets, azhwars and nayanmars have not only extolled the spiritual nature of this land, but also have express their desire to be born again in this punya bhoomi. It is natural for weeds to grow in a flower garden, but our system and thinking allow all forms and thoughts to live side by side.

 

[V.Balasubramani]

I might have been definitely at that point of time might have been a helpless frame of mind and gotten into a pessimistic mood relating to inevitability of some event and hung up. there is always a mood swing when one looks at brighter side of life and believe things can be changed by concrete action . one has to renew periodically and see the positive aspect of living and believe in oneself to carry on . this is auto suggestion. if you start for looking at inconsistencies there might be many more. it is not worth wasting your time on it.lol

Thanks for the admission.

Such postings are only 'waste of time' both for the reader and for the writer.

Those who do have plenty of time at their disposal can go thro' such postings in future as 'time pass' repeat 'time pass.'

This member has admitted that his opinion may change any time subject to his mood swing.

In politics such persons can definitely shine.

But in Forum like this.....???

Atleast now he was made to reveal it. Forum has such interesting members to entertain others lol!

 

[KRN]

Hello Sir Please share the link to your historical analysis on two Indian languages; as mentioned below.

Totally second Sravna that India particularly south is apunya bhoomi & punya shetra. If you look at our past, almost everything hasbeen preserved & handed down through the generations despite the chaoticmiddle ages of invasions, wars, annihilation, etc.. Our sacred magical chants resonating through 1000s ofyears have saved us from the mess of war and disasters.., our civilization hasbeen preserved for us to decipher, learn & analyze this even further. Like ourancestors claim, these incantations do have magical powers… our Brahminancestors zealously guarded & saved all the grantha scripts, setupelaborate schools to preserve the chants through an extra-ordinary oraltradition, unmatched by anyone else !! For people who are following my historical analysis, mycurrent view (still don’t have all the evidence to nail it), is Tamil &Kannada are the mythical Sumerian & Akkadian languages. Malayalam &Telugu are offshoots from these 2 languages. Sumerian & Akkadian are thetwins of the Mesopotamian civilization. Why should we not be proud of our culture? And why peopleare feeling inferior to even claim this? If you go to the west, they will openly tell – how proudthey are about their culture etc… similarly the middle easterns, the Japanese, Chineseetc… Every race has reasons to be proud about itself, so nothingwrong in this. And no-one is insulting any other country, race or civilizationby claiming we are Great !!

 

[prasad1]

I might have been definitely at that point of time might have been a helpless frame of mind and gotten into a pessimistic mood relating to inevitability of some event


and hung up.

there is always a mood swing when one looks at brighter side of life and believe things can be changed by concrete action . one has to renew periodically and see the

positive aspect of living and believe in oneself to carry on . this is auto suggestion. if you start for looking at inconsistencies there might be many more. it is not worth

wasting your time on it.lol

Krishji,
It is magnanimous of you to admit that you might have changed your mind. We all do it from post to post. I am sure if someone goes back I night have contradicted myself to prove a point.