The Rationale behind Karma Theory

[KRN]

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Now￾0È3 to proceed with your queries￾0È3 I would like to slightly disagree with your point reg our history. It is not that everyone here was full of Sattva until the arrival of the invader. Fact is... everyone was full of fighting amongst themselves. So immersed in internal fights were they￾0È3 that it escaped their minds to explore the world outside India and learn more about the new religions working out the destinies of other nations. So they were in total ignorance of the invaders religion￾0È3 hence totally unprepared when the invasion came with such brutality. Now why is Karma theory to be blamed at all for all this?

 

[renuka]

. Now why I mentioned this story. Here Karna is like the follower of the religion you mention below. He has only one religion - Duryodhana is akin to God for him and anybody who does not concur with Duryodhana can be killed without compunction.

Dear Sir,

I agree with what you wrote and understood the significance behind the story..but doesnt it seem too much of a co incidence that the violent ones who terrorize others are invariably from one religion?

I know you say they suffer from Karna Syndrome..fair enough but how come Karma plays such a game that one has to be in only 1 religion to suffer from Karna syndrome?

Sravna says that by killing the innocent one acquires bad karma but does an innocent deserve to become a pawn in this game for no valid reason at all?

One can argue that the so called innocent could be having some residual active Karma that made him a victim but if he had the good karma to be born in a religion of non violence how come his Karma was not good enough to confer upon him protection.

I was reading an article that the last words of a person who was beheaded recently by ISIS was "Forgive them for they know not"

Even at the dying moment a person could only pray to God to forgive his killers.

To be at such a forgiving state of mind even when your head is being sliced off can only come from a person who is pure at heart.

For such a pure hearted person..why such a painful lesson?

So it seems to be that the meek always lose and the violent always wins....and its almost impossible to try to use Karma to justify any act.

This has set me thinking..is the world actually governed by the Law of Karma or is it not and life just spontaneously came about without a governing Higher Entity called God and for every action there is actually no cyclical reaction but only facts that no one has fully understood...I am patient enough to wait for an answer.

May be we just come and go and cease to exists..diseases are becos of deficiencies..deformity is becos a genetic mutation and death is becos of system shut down and being at the wrong place at the wrong time... and Karma was just made up to make life a Mega Serial?

 

[renuka]

Now￾0È3 to proceed with your queries￾0È3 I would like to slightly disagree with your point reg our history. It is not that everyone here was full of Sattva until the arrival of the invader. Fact is... everyone was full of fighting amongst themselves. So immersed in internal fights were they￾0È3 that it escaped their minds to explore the world outside India and learn more about the new religions working out the destinies of other nations. So they were in total ignorance of the invaders religion￾0È3 hence totally unprepared when the invasion came with such brutality. Now why is Karma theory to be blamed at all for all this?

Exactly! Unprepared.

How come?

The reason is becos they knew not that such violence ever existed.

Again..I say if they had the merit to be born as peaceful creatures why the merit was not enough to confer protection?

Yes you are right...I cant blame Karma cos Karma can never fit in and explain anything.

Its just that its very hard for a Hindu to give up the theory of Karma cos it forms a basic tenet but something I can no longer hold on too..I feel I should discard....it does not make me less of a Hindu.

 

[sravna]

Renuka, hinduism or any other religion does not give too much importance to death per se. They say it is not the real end of the person as it is the concept of soul that is central to many religions. So you need to analyze events on that perspective. I agree it is difficult for an ordinary human being to believe that it is the liberation from the physical life that is ultimately important and that's what makes realizing that filled with so many experiences and achieved after a long and arduous path.

If you ask me why should a soul be created and made to travel this path, my answer again would be showing what is not the right path is just part of reality just as enjoying bliss through right knowledge is reality. From the point of experience of a single entity the former is transient whereas the latter is permanent and the ultimate. It seems logical because if something that reflects what is right exists then something which reflects what is not right should also exist.

 

[renuka]

Renuka, hinduism or any other religion does not give too much importance to death per se. They say it is not the real end of the person as it is the concept of soul that is central to many religions. So you need to analyze events on that perspective. I agree it is difficult for an ordinary human being to believe that it is the liberation from the physical life that is ultimately important and that's what makes realizing that filled with so many experiences and achieved after a long and arduous path.

If you ask me why should a soul be created and made to travel this path, my answer again would be showing what is not the right path is just part of reality just as enjoying bliss through right knowledge is reality. From the point of experience of a single entity the former is transient whereas the latter is permanent and the ultimate. It seems logical because if something that reflects what is right exists then something which reflects what is not right should also exist.

Dear Sravna,

Why should a man drown before he learns to swim?

 

[KRN]

Violence￾0È3 brutality￾0È3 torture has always been part of Indian society. How did Ashoka￾0È3 a Hindu-Jaina come to occupy his throne? What did he do afterwards? In Abhijnana Sakuntalam its said the punishment for theft is death. Often the punishment for simple crimes (simple as per modern notions) used to be impalement￾0È3 Killing under the elephant￾0È2foot etc. Such punishments repeatedly occur in ancient and medieval Hindu & Buddhist works. They were unprepared only in the sense that they could not fathom how religion and not politics could be a reason behind violence.

Exactly! Unprepared.How come?The reason is becos they knew not that such violence ever existed.Again..I say if they had the merit to be born as peaceful creatures why the merit was not enough to confer protection?Yes you are right...I cant blame Karma cos Karma can never fit in and explain anything.Its just that its very hard for a Hindu to give up the theory of Karma cos it forms a basic tenet but something I can no longer hold on too..I feel I should discard....it does not make me less of a Hindu.

 

[sravna]

Dear Sravna,

Why should a man drown before he learns to swim?

Dear Renuka,

All along he is learning to swim.Where is the drowning happening?

 

[sravna]

Dear Renuka,

The physical world is modeled as a learning ground because the existence there is transient and the ultimate existence is spiritual

 

[KRN]

Dear Sir,I agree with what you wrote and understood the significance behind the story..but doesnt it seem too much of a co incidence that the violent ones who terrorize others are invariably from one religion? I know you say they suffer from Karna Syndrome..fair enough but how come Karma plays such a game that one has to be in only 1 religion to suffer from Karna syndrome?

### India is the karma bhumi and punya bhumi (might sound jingoistic to some but it does explain certain things like the query above) so the idea is... people have to take birth here to attain moksha. Now what ordeals they may have to go thru before getting moksha....well that is a different matter.

Sravna says that by killing the innocent one acquires bad karma but does an innocent deserve to become a pawn in this game for no valid reason at all?One can argue that the so called innocent could be having some residual active Karma that made him a victim but if he had the good karma to be born in a religion of non violence how come his Karma was not good enough to confer upon him protection.

#### Good karma cannot counteract bad karma. Both will need to be worked out. One has to go beyond both...that is the whole purpose of religion.

I was reading an article that the last words of a person who was beheaded recently by ISIS was "Forgive them for they know not"Even at the dying moment a person could only pray to God to forgive his killers.To be at such a forgiving state of mind even when your head is being sliced off can only come from a person who is pure at heart.For such a pure hearted person..why such a painful lesson? So it seems to be that the meek always lose and the violent always wins....and its almost impossible to try to use Karma to justify any act.

This is why we say God exists. Logic says the meek and the weak have no chance before the strong and the organized. But reality tells us that ultimately the violent winner also suffers sooner or later. If not through violence - he will be punished with some painful disease...accidents... The Upanishads say the lord created Dharma so that the meek is able to prevail over the strong. At some point of time when the meek are oppressed beyond limit.. at that time we may see that God incarnates to reestablish Dharma in the world. Even if we arent able to see God it is a good reason to be on the right side in one of our births when he incarnates.

This has set me thinking..is the world actually governed by the Law of Karma or is it not and life just spontaneously came about without a governing Higher Entity called God and for every action there is actually no cyclical reaction but only facts that no one has fully understood...I am patient enough to wait for an answer.

I have lived a relatively short life. Still I have seen enough to be convinced that noone is winning everything always. Win some lose some. Violent people are seen punished in mysterious ways.

May be we just come and go and cease to exists..diseases are becos of deficiencies..deformity is becos a genetic mutation and death is becos of system shut down and being at the wrong place at the wrong time... and Karma was just made up to make life a Mega Serial?

 

[sravna]

Just as certain times are considered auspicious, certain places are sacred. India is one such place because so many towering spiritual personalities were born here and I do not think it is a coincidence that so many people of immense depth can be born here if the place does not have sacredness about it. I fully second Shri KRN's view that India is a punya bhoomi and one has to be blessed to be born in India

 

[KRN]

Dear Srinivasan I couldnt explain it any better. It takes a certain maturity - in terms of karma done in other parts of the world - before a soul gets to be born into a peaceful and non violent religion as Smt Renuka said. Now as for why we have had to suffer so much violence. In my view although there were relatively less *religious crusades* or *inquisitions* here there has been a lot of violence due to other reasons in the past - So this is collectively inherited by whoever is born here.

 

[prasad1]

It is obvious that we are not yet blessed, because we are still born.
Blessed are those who have gone beyond this cycle of birth and death. Like Adi Shankara says:
Punarabhi jananam punarabhi maranam
Punarabhi jananee jahare shayanam (punarabhi)
Iha samsaare bahu dhusthaare (2)
Kripayaa paare paahi muraare

So let us drop this EGO trip Sravnaji, we are not any more blessed than the person born in Somalia.
I am a firm believer in Karma theory and rebirth, but I also believe in Adi Shakara's Advaita. We are what we are, we have potential to be better.

 

[renuka]

Dear Sravna,

I have noted that many Hindus even out here where I live have a tendency to say that "we should feel blessed that we are born without diseases or suffering and each time you feel that you are suffering..think that there is always someone else worse than you and suffering more than you blah blah blah..you should be happy you got a good Karma"


Now this is what I totally dislike ..cos we do not have to witness suffering of others to make us feel privileged or blessed with a better Karma..I feel anyone who thinks this way is sadistic in thought,word and deed.

We should try to look at human suffering without bringing in Karma..only then we can get into action and do something about it.

To a great extent subscribing to Karma theory only makes some puffed up with ego and pride that they are better off than others becos they had a better Karmic track record.

Now coming to Punyabhumi theory of India..I strongly disagree even though I am genetically Indian..the reason is ..I still have some confidence that God does not grade countries into Punyam and Papam..lets not give God a bad name and drag Him into duality of the human kind.

I feel most probably the Punyabhumi terminology was coined becos society was either not bothered or too helpless to eradicate suffering and poverty and resorted to coin this terminology to make the poor think they are suffering becos they are working their way up the Karmic scale ..making them easy prey for exploitation.

Its like how Gandhi coined the word Harijan to not actually address the gravity of the situation.

So Punyabhumi is like the term Harijan...a cover up job without addressing the situation.

So its time humans of the Hindu kind have a wake up call.."Arise..Awake..Achieve..Reject Fatalism..Reject Suffering"

 

[renuka]

Dear Renuka,

All along he is learning to swim.Where is the drowning happening?

Dear Sravna,

You see..you said life is all about learning..you said that the "soul" has to learn these lessons etc.

Ok by that in your opinion..the individual is dragged into a whirlpool of suffering and above that we have Maya to make him not realize anything so soon..so technically he drowns cos he is made to drown even before he swims across the ocean of Samsara.

Next..just say he swims and survives and comes to a land supposedly Punyabhumi where suddenly he realizes that God is supposed to be One without a Second but Man is four fold!

He has to start from the bottom most rung..climb up to go to the top most rung and then finally even that is not a guarantee of anything anymore cos a man risks sliding down at any one time..(unless he screams Narayana Narayana and Vishnu Dutas come running!LOL)

I hope you get what I mean..its not an easy process this Karma and existence..forced unto humans without our consent.

Then there are some who say there is the Free Will but yet there is also the God's Will that prevails..

How much is Free Will and how much is God's Will..no one really knows where the border begins and ends.

So finally it all looks like Mannangatti..nothing can really make sense.

So why actually trouble ourselves?? Come what may and rely on ourselves..it takes a very strong willed person to rely fully on himself without the need to subscribe to even God.

Isn’t it obvious that God does not get involved?
Yet prayers subscribed for the totally unresolved,
Is it for me or is it for you or He we have to please?
An unanswered question..answers I really seek.

 

[Raji Ram]

Dear Renu,

Those who are born to rich parents and have a comfortable life can say that there is no need to pray God

and about maNNAngatti!

It is not said that humans will be reborn only as humans but could be born as any creature or even a plant!

Did you not read the story of Vilwamangalam Swamiyar, which I posted sometime ago in another thread?

For a sin he committed, he had to be reborn as a snake roaming around a temple, which got killed by the

people visiting the temple and next as a tulsi plant to finally reach Lord Krishna as a garland made of tulsi.

P.S: These stories are told to create fear in humans to do any wrong deed. So, let us all try to be good! :angel:

 

[BRAHMACHARI]

Just as certain times are considered auspicious, certain places are sacred. India is one such place because so many towering spiritual personalities were born here and I do not think it is a coincidence that so many people of immense depth can be born here if the place does not have sacredness about it. I fully second Shri KRN's view that India is a punya bhoomi and one has to be blessed to be born in India

Sir,

I wish even I could declare in agreement with you. It would indeed be an honor and privilege to be born in this land if we can sincerely attach the highest standard of sacredness to this land.

But the origin and existence of numerous evils viz witchcraft, adultery, sycophancy, corruption, devadasis, dowry system etc, in this very same land which boasts of sadhus and sannyasis, eclipses any sacredness in this land.

Our media are nearly saturated with reports of rape, theft, homicide, burglary, infidelity, violence, scandal, corruption and project a disgraceful picture of our erstwhile-great-land.

 

[sravna]

Sir,

I wish even I could declare in agreement with you. It would indeed be an honor and privilege to be born in this land if we can sincerely attach the highest standard of sacredness to this land.

But the origin and existence of numerous evils viz witchcraft, adultery, sycophancy, corruption, devadasis, dowry system etc, in this very same land which boasts of sadhus and sannyasis, eclipses any sacredness in this land.

Our media are nearly saturated with reports of rape, theft, homicide, burglary, infidelity, violence, scandal, corruption and project a disgraceful picture of our erstwhile-great-land.

Dear Shri Brahmachari,

You are correct that evil acts keep occurring in our land now. But my view is that the sacredness of the land which makes it throw up spiritual personalities of the highest order at regular frequencies is what that would set right the situation. I am sure that will happen very soon as the balance is now heavily tilted towards the wrong side.

 

[renuka]

Dear Renu,

Those who are born to rich parents and have a comfortable life can say that there is no need to pray God

and about maNNAngatti!

Dear RR ji,

This is the greatest misconception..in fact it only reinforces the fact that one prays for individual gain.

It is not that the rich do not have to pray becos they have everything.

In fact you sound just like a patient I have..she keeps inviting me to the temple when she does some yearly homa for her family(which I have never attended)

She is not well off..just mediocre and always lands up in credit card debts but each year she borrows money to go to India to do all sorts of Pariharams to ward off her financial difficulty.

Then she will come back to see me asking me discount for medication etc.

I know her well so I dont mind giving her the discounts.

One day she asked me 'Doc I do so much for God but yet He does not help me..you seem to do nothing for God..you dont even do a yearly Homa like I do.. but yet He has given you everything"

Then I told her "Its not that I do nothing for God..its just that you spend all your money doing stuff thinking God will shower you with blessings.If you save what you spend on yearly homas and stop borrowing money to do Pariharams..you wont even be in debt..one has to be practical in life"

She took my advise and has cut down unneeded expenditure and her financial status has improved.

So RR ji..its not Mannangatti of any kind that one does not pray for personal gain..its just that its becoming increasingly hard to think of self salvation and personal gain when there is so much suffering in the world..when I am sleeping at night..a thought comes to me "you are sleeping peacefully in an AC room but someone out there could be having his head cut off right now"

Guilt of being alive is also felt by me..not everyone can think of themselves when others suffer.

So if I choose to ditch prayer its not becos of I have everything but becos I want everyone to have peace..if I have peace and another does not..I dont need that peace too.

 

[renuka]

Dear Shri Brahmachari,

You are correct that evil acts keep occurring in our land now. But my view is that the sacredness of the land which makes it throw up spiritual personalities of the highest order at regular frequencies is what that would set right the situation. I am sure that will happen very soon as the balance is now heavily tilted towards the wrong side.

Dear Sravna,

Why do we have to keep waiting for the Volcano to keep spewing Religious Personalities of the Highest order at regular frequencies?

In fact their presence at time causes Disorder!

Each vying with another in a new school of thought..a new Bhasya..an intellectual display of no gain but loss of the individual thinking ability.

Each personality creates a mental block for the masses..each one wants everyone to sing his tune.

So keep waiting..nothing is going to change.

 

[sravna]

Why do we have to keep thinking that the scientists are the ones who can cause order?

In fact their presence many a time causes Disorder!

Each vying with another in a new school of thought..a new hypothesis..an intellectual display of no gain but loss of the individual thinking ability.

each one wants everyone to sing his tune.

nothing really is going to change.

Dear Renuka,

I have modified your last post a little and see how well it fits the personalities in Science. The idea is one needs to stop being unduly critical of what they perceive as wrong and should put some time and effort to use their critiquing brain to see what is really wrong on what they espouse. I have some regard for science but I think it is still in its nascent stage and can't quite match the intellectual formidability that underlies indian spiritualism .

 

[krish44]

Dear Sravna,

I have noted that many Hindus even out here where I live have a tendency to say that "we should feel blessed that we are born without diseases or suffering and each time you feel that you are suffering..think that there is always someone else worse than you and suffering more than you blah blah blah..you should be happy you got a good Karma"


Now this is what I totally dislike ..cos we do not have to witness suffering of others to make us feel privileged or blessed with a better Karma..I feel anyone who thinks this way is sadistic in thought,word and deed.

We should try to look at human suffering without bringing in Karma..only then we can get into action and do something about it.

To a great extent subscribing to Karma theory only makes some puffed up with ego and pride that they are better off than others becos they had a better Karmic track record.

Now coming to Punyabhumi theory of India..I strongly disagree even though I am genetically Indian..the reason is ..I still have some confidence that God does not grade countries into Punyam and Papam..lets not give God a bad name and drag Him into duality of the human kind.

I feel most probably the Punyabhumi terminology was coined becos society was either not bothered or too helpless to eradicate suffering and poverty and resorted to coin this terminology to make the poor think they are suffering becos they are working their way up the Karmic scale ..making them easy prey for exploitation.

Its like how Gandhi coined the word Harijan to not actually address the gravity of the situation.

So Punyabhumi is like the term Harijan...a cover up job without addressing the situation.

So its time humans of the Hindu kind have a wake up call.."Arise..Awake..Achieve..Reject Fatalism..Reject Suffering"

Like the last line ' arise..awake...Achieve ..reject fatalism ... reject suffering'

Talking of Karma, punyabhumi etc sound a bit weird . I instinctively withdraw from people propounding such theories

Equally preposterous ideas of rebirth giving example of someone reborn as a snake or tulsi plant to put fear into people doing so called misdeeds.

such things being foisted on gullibles is a crime against them

I feel these pracharaks who spread such ideas should be banished at the earliest and tried in law courts for promoting superstitious beliefs

By the way one gentleman from mumbai who raised his voice against such beliefs was knocked off by so called believers. I am hoping I do not meet a similar fate

 

[renuka]

Dear Renuka,

I have modified your last post a little and see how well it fits the personalities in Science. The idea is one needs to stop being unduly critical of what they perceive as wrong and should put some time and effort to use their critiquing brain to see what is really wrong on what they espouse. I have some regard for science but I think it is still in its nascent stage and can't quite match the intellectual formidability that underlies indian spiritualism .

LOL!

You modified my post but still the heading show originally posted by Renuka..

Aiyoo Sravna..readers would get confused.

At least kindly edit the Originally Posted by Renuka line so that there is no confusion.

I do not want to see science as opposite of religion cos without a scientist I wont have even a lap top to type my thoughts here.


For me I feel anyone can have ego..be it Swamiji or Scientist.

Both can cause damage or restore society..so its hard to depend on either one and better depend on none..that is why we are asked to be Nirashraya(dependent on none).

Actually if we read the Bhagavad Geeta a couple of times after while we start to feel its actually almost "Nasthika" in the real sense..Lord Krishna was always talking about self improvement and not about Karma and fatalism.

I know many will think its totally blasphemous to think that Bhagavad Geeta is a Nasthika text but that how it seems to sing to me.

 

[sravna]

By the way one gentleman from mumbai who raised his voice against such beliefs was knocked off by so called believers. I am hoping I do not meet a similar fate

Dear Shri Krish,

I am sure you will not be knocked off by anyone who truly believes in the right knowledge. All of us want to acquire the right knowledge but at the same time many of us have the ego that what we believe in is that right knowledge. So there is always a fight that is going on and it is the ego that is the cause of all this. Think of this. Something that advises us to shed off the ego and think with clarity is likely to offer us the right knowledge, right? Indian philosophy tecahes us exactly that.

Science can indeed offer the right knowledge but it has to be not only objective but also try to include the big picture. Honoring reason but not seeing the overall view is like teaching the methods right but not teaching the right objective.

I accept that there are many superstitions but can you say the logic on which Indian philosophy is built is not sound?

 

[sravna]

It was indeed originally posted by Renuka.

Does Krishna say anything against karma? Karma is something that is always in operation. It is the effect of Karma that any one is saying or thinking or doing something. So Krishna's advice is something that has to happen at that time. If Krishna did not advise Arjuna at that time, the Kauravas would not have met the fate that they met. One also needs guidance for acting, thinking or doing. Krishna's advise fulfills that objective also and help people appreciate the big picture better. So look at the big picture and not see events in isolation.

 

[Raji Ram]

Dear RR ji,

1. This is the greatest misconception..in fact it only reinforces the fact that one prays for individual gain.

2. It is not that the rich do not have to pray becos they have everything.

3. In fact you sound just like a patient I have..she keeps inviting me to the temple when she does some yearly homa for her family(which I have never attended).........

4.So if I choose to ditch prayer its not becos of I have everything but becos I want everyone to have peace..if I have peace and another does not..I dont need that peace too.

Dear Renu,

1. Everyone does not pray for personal gain though many do! My dad has taught us to pray for the welfare of humans
and not for individual gains and all of us, his children follow that! :hail:
2. Rich pray when they need more riches or when they fall ill! Some are well off and SATISFIED; they won't pray much! :couch2:

3. You have totally wrong idea about my personality. I have often times written in forum against 'parihArams' and probably

you missed those posts. I don't do any parihArams and don't rush to astrologers with my horoscope. I believe that I should

have been a fairly good person in my previous birth and hence God gave me my parents, good spouse and a brilliant son.

Simple living and high thinking was what we were taught. FYI, I don't buy anything just because my friends have it!!

4. You must be knowing that many persons don't have peace because of financial strain or ill health! So, why don't you quit

praying for the peace of everyone, which is NEVER going to happen! :sad:

P.S: The last time I visited the temple in our colony was in November 2013!!