The most famous verse of Jayadeva Swami's Gita-Govindam

[Vaagmi]

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Dear Renuka,

No matter what reason one reads Ramayanam, one will be blessed. Hatred of Sri Hari procured moksha to Shishupala. Hatred of Sri Rama procured moksha to Ravana. So whether you are reading it purely for academic reasons or for love of Ravana, you will be blessed by Sri Ramachandra!

I do have 1 request to ask of you (rather beg of you). They say with great accomplishments, comes great responsibility. Reading the original Valmiki muni's work endows you with authority to speak on Sri Rama, Sri Sita and others. I request you to thus always bear in mind the responsibility you incur out of this authority, of the need to not offend the pure devotees of Sri Ramachandra with knowledge! It should not become like the proverb, "படிப்பது ராமாயணம், இடிப்பது பெருமாள் கோயில்"...

Also, pride of accomplishment is not the same as the 'pride' that is one of the 6-fold flaws of human nature. Pride of accomplishment is the simple joy of participating in one thing and the achieving it! For example, I cook well, it is the pride of accomplishment I have on cooking, but not the feeling that 'only I cook well' (pride).

I thank you for the info on learning Sanskrit. I will look into it sometime.

Kind regards,

JR

Well said. I appreciate the wisdom, tone and the underplaying of self. Good indeed.

 

[sarang]

No words of praise are adequate. Thanks for a deep and meaningful post.

Dear Renuka,

No matter what reason one reads Ramayanam, one will be blessed. Hatred of Sri Hari procured moksha to Shishupala. Hatred of Sri Rama procured moksha to Ravana. So whether you are reading it purely for academic reasons or for love of Ravana, you will be blessed by Sri Ramachandra!

I do have 1 request to ask of you (rather beg of you). They say with great accomplishments, comes great responsibility. Reading the original Valmiki muni's work endows you with authority to speak on Sri Rama, Sri Sita and others. I request you to thus always bear in mind the responsibility you incur out of this authority, of the need to not offend the pure devotees of Sri Ramachandra with knowledge! It should not become like the proverb, "படிப்பது ராமாயணம், இடிப்பது பெருமாள் கோயில்"...

Also, pride of accomplishment is not the same as the 'pride' that is one of the 6-fold flaws of human nature. Pride of accomplishment is the simple joy of participating in one thing and the achieving it! For example, I cook well, it is the pride of accomplishment I have on cooking, but not the feeling that 'only I cook well' (pride).

I thank you for the info on learning Sanskrit. I will look into it sometime.

Kind regards,

JR

 

[JR]

Just trying friends... thanks.

This forum has brought so many different experiences, it has definitely taught me a thing or two..

 

[Vaagmi]

Ok lets get real.

I would want you to define Bhakti in a way best known to you.

It would logical that the definition of Bhakti would differ from individual to individual cos we humans interpret phenomenons differently.

Before that let me define Bhakti.

Frankly speaking I don't really know how to define Bhakti..is Bhakti an act of love or devotion or dedication or even desperation?

Well it could be any one of the above or even all of it or none of it.

Let's see..right now when I am reading the Ramayan..I feel absolutely blank but I have noted that my speed of reading seems very fast..much faster than reading any other text..may be becos I have an interest in Ravan!LOL

So is that Bhakti at least to Ravan? Heck No..I don't know!

Ok..next..when I see any devotional movie..if I am all alone..I do admit at times I get tears from my eyes..reason? I don't know..it just comes at times especially if its a male God...eg Krishna movies.

If its a Goddess Amman movie mostly I don't get tears..the female God concept does not really go too well with me!

When I go to temples..I don't feel anything at all..in fact I keep looking at everyone around..I find a temple distracting.
I do not like crowd as much.
I remember when I was in India as a student I went to a Krishna temple at 12 midnight and sat outside the gate with a friend.
I felt "nice and calm" but my friend was wondering which sane person prays at midnight!LOL

So was that an act of Bhakti? I don't know.

I am too simple minded to even ask myself if I have Bhakti...that answer if I have Bhakti or not should come from God and not from me.

As a human one can claim to be anything ...to be a Bhaktiman or a Superman(LOL)..but finally its up to God to decide who has Bhakti.

So Vaagmi ji...you are right ..I have not only not understood what Bhakti is, I have never even made an attempt to know it.

The question is 'How are you so sure you have Bhakti?"

Dear Renukaji,

I understand your position.

And I can write only from my experience.

I tend to believe I can transact a conversation with you on this subject because you are not like others. Your frankness and curiosity are the plus points. You are not biased and I like that.

I will come with a detailed reply on this topic.

 

[mkrishna100]

Frankly speaking I don't really know how to define Bhakti..is Bhakti an act of love or devotion or dedication or even desperation?

Well it could be any one of the above or even all of it or none of it.

Renukaji

Lord Krishna defines 4 types of devotees in the Bhagavad Gita .
The first level people pray when in distress .
The Second level pray for security .
The Third Level pray for Knowledge - they are seekers - Jignasu .
The Fourth Level are Jnanis - wise men .


Since you have lost interest in temples and worship but deeply interested in Ramayana for Knowledge , you are a Jignasu Bhaktha i.e You love knowledge and are making attempts to seek that knowledge from various sources and the very fact that you took efforts to Study Sanskrit is a proof of your devotion to knowledge . This is my simple reply . Hope Sri Vaagmi Sir will give a more detailed reply .

 

[renuka]

Dear Renuka,

No matter what reason one reads Ramayanam, one will be blessed. Hatred of Sri Hari procured moksha to Shishupala. Hatred of Sri Rama procured moksha to Ravana. So whether you are reading it purely for academic reasons or for love of Ravana, you will be blessed by Sri Ramachandra!

I do have 1 request to ask of you (rather beg of you). They say with great accomplishments, comes great responsibility. Reading the original Valmiki muni's work endows you with authority to speak on Sri Rama, Sri Sita and others. I request you to thus always bear in mind the responsibility you incur out of this authority, of the need to not offend the pure devotees of Sri Ramachandra with knowledge! It should not become like the proverb, "படிப்பது ராமாயணம், இடிப்பது பெருமாள் கோயில்"...



JR

Dear JR,

I feel no one gets an authority to speak on Lord Rama or Sita or even Ravan for the matter.
We can only share our thoughts but frankly speaking none of us have any authority to speak about God cos the more we read the more we realize that we know next to nothing.

So don't worry..no need to even say that you beg of me..cos I do not offend any devotee but its just that sometime some "devotees" take any discussion too personally..anyway don't worry I am not going to read Ramayan and attack anyone or even இடிப்பது any Perumal temple. I can sense that you always sort of think I could be an Anti God..well I don't entirely blame you..I do have a soft corner for Asuras and even the Devil concept cos evil is sexy!LOL One should Love God and also Love the Anti God for duality is the name of the game..loving one and hating the other takes us no where.

BTW Lord Rama is for everyone..Rama is He who delights and no one owns Him.Who is His devotee? That only Lord Rama would know.

Coming to the word Pride..Pride is Pride...even if it is for an accomplishment.
Pride is a very limited feeling...its only felt by the person who thinks he/she has accomplished something on the other hand Happiness for accomplishing anything is a different feeling all together.

Happiness can be shared and this shared happiness could also motive others.

Pride just burns a flame that no one sees..Happiness rises within and illuminates everyone.

 

[renuka]

Renukaji

Lord Krishna defines 4 types of devotees in the Bhagavad Gita .
The first level people pray when in distress .
The Second level pray for security .
The Third Level pray for Knowledge - they are seekers - Jignasu .
The Fourth Level are Jnanis - wise men .


Since you have lost interest in temples and worship but deeply interested in Ramayana for Knowledge , you are a Jignasu Bhaktha i.e You love knowledge and are making attempts to seek that knowledge from various sources and the very fact that you took efforts to Study Sanskrit is a proof of your devotion to knowledge . This is my simple reply . Hope Sri Vaagmi Sir will give a more detailed reply .

Dear Sir,

Many years ago I used to read with a great thirst for knowledge..that is why I studied Sanskrit too.
I used to even make notes of what I read and also wrote everything down in Q and A format to make sure I did not forget what I read.

But these days I do not have that thirst anymore..now I like to read without feeling anything.
Its like a feeling of leisure with no compulsion to gain knowledge..its just for fun sake and may be for information purposes..It's more relaxing that way cos that way we are not seeking anything anymore.It's less stress on the mind and body to stop seeking and simply just exist.

 

[renuka]

I will come with a detailed reply on this topic.

I'm waiting.


(read it Vijay Punch Dialogue style!LOL)

 

[mkrishna100]

But these days I do not have that thirst anymore..now I like to read without feeling anything.

When the intellectual sheath ( Vignanamaya Kosha ) dominates , the emotional sheath ( Manomaya Kosha ) takes a backseat . This is the quality of a Jignasu Bhakta and that is why many people call people on the Intellectual Path as dry Vedantins .

 

[Vaagmi]

When the intellectual sheath ( Vignanamaya Kosha ) dominates , the emotional sheath ( Manomaya Kosha ) takes a backseat . This is the quality of a Jignasu Bhakta and that is why many people call people on the Intellectual Path as dry Vedantins .

Yes. Dry vedantins who gradually move to end up in that enveloping shunya where there exists nothing ultimately. Budhdham sharanam gachchaami.

 

[JR]

When the intellectual sheath ( Vignanamaya Kosha ) dominates , the emotional sheath ( Manomaya Kosha ) takes a backseat . This is the quality of a Jignasu Bhakta and that is why many people call people on the Intellectual Path as dry Vedantins .

So those who read religious works because they think its fun are all 'jignyasus' and somehow they are even greater than those who read them with tears abounding in their eyes, cherish every moment of what they read with true emotions??

 

[mkrishna100]

So those who read religious works because they think its fun are all 'jignyasus' and somehow they are even greater than those who read them with tears abounding in their eyes, cherish every moment of what they read with true emotions??

A jignasu does not read works for fun but reads for more knowledge and seeks more answers at the intellectual level . He/She is different from a person who reads a book for time pass ,fun or like an atheist who reads religious work for finding loopholes in them .Only that he uses his rational mind to find answers and needs rational arguments for the same . That is why all the Acharyas ( Shankara , Madhwa , Ramanuja ) have given elaborate commentaries for their works ( The Bhagavad Gita , The 10 Principal Upanishads and the Brahmasutras ) . There may be differences in their Philosophical viewpoints but they offer elaborate commentaries on the above works to justify their Philosophical point of view . A normal Bhakta is happy with his devotion to God and he is not interested in those commentaries but a jignasu Bhakta is keen on the reasons and reads the commentaries to find the answers .

 

[renuka]

When the intellectual sheath ( Vignanamaya Kosha ) dominates , the emotional sheath ( Manomaya Kosha ) takes a backseat . This is the quality of a Jignasu Bhakta and that is why many people call people on the Intellectual Path as dry Vedantins .

Dear Sir,


I have noted that when we are intellect mode..emotions often take a back seat..its not entirely absent but it does not show up as first line.

I will give you a non religious example..

I remember once I had a patient who came to see me saying that she was actually not sick but needed a sick leave and did not want to go to work.

I usually do not give sick leave to people who are not sick..so I told her only a person who sick can be given sick leave.

Then she started crying..saying it was her husband's death anniversary and she was reminded of his death and missing him and could not go to work.

So I told her "Ok..I can give you a sick leave on the grounds of depression"

At that moment seeing her cry..I was wondering in my mind"Its been a year since he died and she is still crying for him? Is she depressed or its normal to miss anyone for so long"

I was actually analyzing the situation sans emotions..then after a few seconds a thought came to me "hey you idiot..who wont feel depressed when you lose a loved one?"

So you see..emotional thinking needed some time to kick in.

Coming back to reading Ramayan..well I have something to share.

I have noted that its written so poetically that one gets engrossed and forgets to eat..I did not realize it was lunch time yesterday..did not feel hungry or thirsty and neither did I feel tired.

By keeping our minds totally busy with some intense activity we can shuttle our thoughts away from even our troubles..its easier said and done ..but its as if we can "hypnotize' ourselves by shunting our thoughts away from activities that are not beneficial to our mind.

So reading Ramayan seems great if one wants to make sure one does not gain weight!

I then looked at the painting of a tall and thin Valmiki on the cover....I then thought 'No wonder you look thin..may be you did not eat while writing the Ramayan"!

Last by not least..this Dry Vedantin theory....moist can also be dry...Wondering how?

For example a Dry Martini is liquid....moist yet dry and it can still make you high.

Likewise..a Dry Vedantin might be called dry but he/she can still have the "kickku" to become Spiritually high!LOL

 

[renuka]

So those who read religious works because they think its fun are all 'jignyasus' and somehow they are even greater than those who read them with tears abounding in their eyes, cherish every moment of what they read with true emotions??

dear JR,

There is no competition when it comes to reading Religious text..whether one reads for fun sans emotions or one cries while reading..it does not make a difference.

Its just like how some of us react differently while seeing a movie..some of us do not cry seeing sad movies but some of us do..but at the end of the day both types of people saw the movie.

So its the same here..no matter who reads a religious text..there is no one who is greater than the others..the religious text is like a Sun..the rays of the Sun falls equally on all and illuminates the world..like wise the rays of the religious text falls equally on all who read it and illuminates their intellect in a way best suited for each one of them.

 

[renuka]

Yes. Dry vedantins who gradually move to end up in that enveloping shunya where there exists nothing ultimately. Budhdham sharanam gachchaami.

From Dry Martinis..lets discuss about Nothingness(Shunyam).

Just a reminder before that..I am still waiting for your personal definition of Bhakti and why you know you have Bhakti.

Ok lets start talking about Shunyam.

Shunyam is supposed to be Nothing...the ZERO.

But is a Zero actually Nothing?

How can "nothing" add value to One to make a Million?

So what is Zero actually?



0

Take a good look at Shunyam..ZERO.

In its apparent "Nothingness" it encircles everything.

No other number forms an full circle around everything..so is Shunyam empty or full?

You decide.

Likewise a Dry Vedantin reaches a point of "Nothingness" and in this Nothingness "Everything" is encapsulated..a pill to swallow without water..it does not get stuck in the throat cos the moisture of wisdom would glide it down the system and it would be assimilated and absorbed into each and every cell in the body and becomes One with the One and Only One...a romance of Shunyam and Purnam.... the dance of Existence in Time Infinite.

 

[Vaagmi]

From Dry Martinis..lets discuss about Nothingness(Shunyam).

Just a reminder before that..I am still waiting for your personal definition of Bhakti and why you know you have Bhakti.

Ok lets start talking about Shunyam.

Shunyam is supposed to be Nothing...the ZERO.

But is a Zero actually Nothing?

How can "nothing" add value to One to make a Million?

So what is Zero actually?



0

Take a good look at Shunyam..ZERO.

In its apparent "Nothingness" it encircles everything.

No other number forms an full circle around everything..so is Shunyam empty or full?

You decide.

Likewise a Dry Vedantin reaches a point of "Nothingness" and in this Nothingness "Everything" is encapsulated..a pill to swallow without water..it does not get stuck in the throat cos the moisture of wisdom would glide it down the system and it would be assimilated and absorbed into each and every cell in the body and becomes One with the One and Only One...a romance of Shunyam and Purnam.... the dance of Existence in Time Infinite.

I do not understand a word of what you have written. I have given up dukhrijkarane long back. For me shunya is nothingness. It is just empty. Period.

And about my experience of bhakti, I am not sure now. I may not be able to explain it with words. It is a personal experience and I would like to leave it at that. If you are very particular you can go to a teacher to know it. Or next time when you visit India try to fix an appointment with me. I will explain what it is. LOL.

 

[renuka]

I do not understand a word of what you have written. I have given up dukhrijkarane long back. For me shunya is nothingness. It is just empty. Period.

And about my experience of bhakti, I am not sure now. I may not be able to explain it with words. It is a personal experience and I would like to leave it at that. If you are very particular you can go to a teacher to know it. Or next time when you visit India try to fix an appointment with me. I will explain what it is. LOL.

Well I dont blame you..even after I finished writing my post about Shunyam..I took a step back and read what I wrote and thought "what the heck did I just write? "

I know its confusing!LOL


Ok..coming to the Bhakti feeling..I can understand it you feel that you can't express it in words.
Its like a Kuch Kuch Hota Hai feeling..that is you know its there but you just can't find the word to describe it.
Its better felt emotionally than expressed verbally.Bhakti and Bhava are sort of interconnected.

Move over Rasaleela..I would rather call Bhakti a Tango between Bhakta and God.

Again we come back to a dance...why a dance?

Becos only in a dance the mind does not exists.

One loses himself or herself and lets the heart rule..so my dear Vaagmi Ji..Bhakti is an expression of the heart dancing in the love for God.

OMG! I actually know Bhakti!LOL

 

[a-TB]

Well I dont blame you..even after I finished writing my post about Shunyam..I took a step back and read what I wrote and thought "what the heck did I just write? "

I know its confusing!LOL


Ok..coming to the Bhakti feeling..I can understand it you feel that you can't express it in words.
Its like a Kuch Kuch Hota Hai feeling..that is you know its there but you just can't find the word to describe it.
Its better felt emotionally than expressed verbally.Bhakti and Bhava are sort of interconnected.

Move over Rasaleela..I would rather call Bhakti a Tango between Bhakta and God.

Again we come back to a dance...why a dance?

Becos only in a dance the mind does not exists.

One loses himself or herself and lets the heart rule..so my dear Vaagmi Ji..Bhakti is an expression of the heart dancing in the love for God.

OMG! I actually know Bhakti!LOL

Yes, Bhakthi is being lost in the dance of Nataraja LoL

 

[a-TB]

I do not understand a word of what you have written. I have given up dukhrijkarane long back. For me shunya is nothingness. It is just empty. Period.

And about my experience of bhakti, I am not sure now. I may not be able to explain it with words. It is a personal experience and I would like to leave it at that. If you are very particular you can go to a teacher to know it. Or next time when you visit India try to fix an appointment with me. I will explain what it is. LOL.

The response is as expected LoL
One must have something in order to describe it. If it is 0 then it cannot be described.

 

[zebra16]

.Bhakti and Bhava are sort of interconnected.

If Bhakti and Bhava are sort of interconnected, then why I do not find Bhakti as one of the nava-rasAs? Why is it not natural like other emotions and have to be sort of cultivated by super-imposing father or mother or child or lover etc. on the Almighty? Why does it not get attached to the antah-karaNA inspite of janma-janmAntara rishta and has to be learnt all over again like alphabets in each and every life?

 

[renuka]

If Bhakti and Bhava are sort of interconnected, then why I do not find Bhakti as one of the nava-rasAs? Why is it not natural like other emotions and have to be sort of cultivated by super-imposing father or mother or child or lover etc. on the Almighty? Why does it not get attached to the antah-karaNA inspite of janma-janmAntara rishta and has to be learnt all over again like alphabets in each and every life?

Good question!

Let me state my opinion.

The Nava rasas are the 9 moods to external stimulus.

Bhakti on the other hand is a response to an internal stimulus...the God concept.
Even though most of us still view God as an external entity but when we pray we are indirectly connecting to our inner self..or in other words The Self.

How does connecting with Self feel like? It has to be some amount of Faith/Trust/Love cos as humans we are only sure of ourselves and no one else.Only we feel what we know.

Now coming to the super imposing father/mother/child/lover on the Almighty..its simple..we humans can not sustain internalizing our emotions for too long..even though Bhakti is a response to an internal stimulus..we eventually want to externalize it..that is where we identify with known relationships of father/mother/mama/machans and super impose those relationships on Almighty!

The truth is we have no idea what the Almighty is..we can only compare something we do not know to what we already know.

After all even when the Vishwaroopa was described in Geeta..it was described as Surya Koti Sama Prabha..reason? becos Arjuna had no idea what God looked like..the mind only knows to compare with what it knows...hence the comparison with the sun.

Antahkarana...has a chitta..the repository of memories.It is supposed to store every data input from janma to janma.

We all have had countless births....but yet we have to learn from birth to birth even how to walk and talk.Why do we forget..becos we have not found the password to hack into the stored data of the Chitta. Till then...no choice but to learn everything again and again.

 

[sangom]

If Bhakti and Bhava are sort of interconnected, then why I do not find Bhakti as one of the nava-rasAs? Why is it not natural like other emotions and have to be sort of cultivated by super-imposing father or mother or child or lover etc. on the Almighty? Why does it not get attached to the antah-karaNA inspite of janma-janmAntara rishta and has to be learnt all over again like alphabets in each and every life?

Shri zebra ji,

As you know, bhakti is not a bhava or rasa. This word comes from the root "bhaj" and indicates allottment, partition, division, etc. In short, bhakti may be said to be present when a person can be counted as belonging to a particular sect, cult, etc., and his/her loyalty is beyond question (to those who are to judge). The individual tries to prove, by his/her actions, demeanour, etc., his loyalty towards some particular sectarian/cultish belief and, in return, he/she is branded as a bhakta or bhaktA.

I feel this explanation applies to all varieties of bhaktas irrespective of the gods/goddesses, sect, cult or schism of which they are bhaktas.

Usually, most children are inculcated with a lot of religious inputs right from their infancy with the result that by the time of adolescence, most children are brain washed to a large extent to become 'bhaktas' and prove this to the world; if they fail in this, they are not 'good boys' or 'good girls'. Such brainwashed adolescents lose their capacity to question and demand logical explanation especially in matters regarding faith or religion. The usual escape here is to repeat that faith/belief cannot be compressed within logical boundaries!

But as the world is progressing and changing rapidly, this kind of "bhakti' will diminish, and, as commented by Shri mkrishna ji, people will like to have logical explanation for everything instead of simply carrying on with bhakti. This may happen in the not-so-distant future. The instances of sexual abuse cases regarding some of the bhakti-based cults in US and some other countries, goes to prove that these so-called bhaktas are just ordinary fellows with a very suppressed sexual urge. The various bhajanai groups, so-called bhagavatas etc., are all very similar.

 

[CHANDRU1849]

The various bhajanai groups, so-called bhagavatas etc., are all very similar.

The Bhagavata Group from the Smartha side is on the increase. Each group has its own set of followers, which may probably lead to rivalry among the various groups and may affect the community in the long run, as is being witnessed in the case of Sringeri and Kanchi Mutt followers.

Another reason for the rise may be for wealth accumulation.

 

[sangom]

The Bhagavata Group from the Smartha side is on the increase. Each group has its own set of followers, which may probably lead to rivalry among the various groups and may affect the community in the long run, as is being witnessed in the case of Sringeri and Kanchi Mutt followers.

Another reason for the rise may be for wealth accumulation.

Shri Chandru Sir,

Regarding the Bhajanai/Bhagavata groups from the Smartas, my observation is that almost all people, after retirement from service, take to this line, irrespective of how irreligious, corrupt or unprincipled they were, during their working years. Then they start impressing the other members of the group about how ardent bhaktas they are and how they deserve the title 'bhagavatottama', etc. This at once gains for them a rank of 'holy brahmin' from the brahmin society around them. Of course, there is great competition and ego-clashes amongst all these aspirants for religiosity label and even different bhajanai groups have usually no love lost between them.

These miscellaneous bhajanai groups do not, to the best of my knowledge, accumulate wealth except by way of the different accessories to bhajanai, but they regularly invite certain 'luminaries' from outside and they have to be given hefty payments (of the tune of Rs.20,000/= per day in some cases, plus air-conditioned hall for their performance, to and fro airfare, etc.). Such VIPs must definitely be accumulating wealth, imo.

 

[krish44]

Why this need for recognition as "holy brahmin" from the brahmin society after retirement?

Perhaps this fulfills an inner need for better acceptance by their caste men

I suppose this is a need in highly caste conscious society where caste divisions are leading to social imbalance and conflicts.

There is a stronger need for caste cohesion to face caste conflicts which might arise in future between castes and this is a move by some to more closely identify with

their own caste