The most famous verse of Jayadeva Swami's Gita-Govindam

[JR]

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Dear JR,


Is there something as being "eligible" to read any religious text?

I somehow beg to differ.

Today I started reading Valmiki Ramayan in Sanskrit....I bought it last year when I went to India.

Its nice to read in Sanskrit text..it gives you the extra "kickku"..but I did not even once think of eligibility to read it.

I feel as long one has the ability to read and has the interest that should be enough.

At the same time one should read any text with an open mind as not to 100% believe what we read and just enjoy the poetic rendition and nothing more.

That is not too hard for anyone to do..just read and do not get too attached or too involved in whatever we read..after all we are entitled to actions but not get attached to the fruits of it.

Dear Renuka,

Ofcourse there is a certain eligibility for reading some works. One has to be a bhakta to feel the bhakti rasa. Otherwise one would get misguided into thinking the message is something else.

Great, you are reading Valmiki Ramayana! Can I ask you to be equally nice when reading about Sri Rama, Sri Sita and their friends as you would be when reading about Ravana! Just kidding, it is a proud accomplishment and I wish you well for reading it. Someday I hope to read it too, albeit with English translations.

Warmly,

JR

 

[Vaagmi]

All these verbal gymnastics wont work. If Sri Radharani is the originator of Vishnu, Mahesha, GaNesha etc. as Brahmavaivarta asserts, Sri Veda VyAsA ought to know it, because he is verily Lord VishNu himself.

Remember viSNu sahasranAmam, "vyAsAya viSNu rUpAyA, vyAsa rUpAya viSNavE"..... it is impossible that Lord Vishnu himself was unaware of Sri Radharani or his swarUpam vyAsa, was unaware of the progenitor of Lord Vishnu Himself

It is simple and straight. Let us not go to Brahma Vaivartha purana or any other purana.

Jayadeva wrote Ashtapathi. In one of the stanzas he wrote what has been the subject of the OP in this thread. From there the arguments are flying left and right about what he wrote. One of the charges against him which you have been repeatedly driving at is that there was no Radha at the time of Krishna. If she was there her name would have found a place in this purana or that purana. They are not there in those puranas and so Radha is not Radha.

My point here is that Radha may not find a mention in any of the puranas or itihasas and that will not make her unreal. She might have been one of those hundreds of gopikas who participated in the Rasaleela with Sri Krishna. Even if it was not so, it might be a name given to one of the Gopikas by a bhakta down the line. The point is that it does not really matter at all.

We have Radha now in ashtapathi engaged in amorous play with Sri Krishna. She represents Jivatma in dalliance with Paramatma. This is enough for believers like me. We do not dissect every tissue of the mythological/literary/puranic/aitihasic characters to the level of the DNAs to trace their ancestry/name/gender etc., That is a wasteful exercise. A wasteful dukrinjkarane. We have no respect for the views of people who indulge in such dukrinjkarane either, whether it is a sangom or a Bankum. LOL.

 

[JR]

I faintly remember reading a katha at the book 'Maha Bhakta Vijayam'. It says someone doubted about a great bhakta's (saint) true bhakti. And the doubter having visited the bhakta's home asked the bhakta if he can make the Radha-Krishna mural in the wall come alive. It seems in an instance, they did come alive, and since Sri Radha was eating food from Sri Krishna's hand in the painting, for a second, Sri Krishna really fed that Radha.

Someone earlier in this thread (is it Vaagmi ji) mentioned that somewhere in scriptures, Sri Krishna is shown favoring a particular Gopi more than anyone else...

Why can't we simply assume that in divinity, all things happen only as ordained and that Smt. Rukmini or one of the many other famous devotees of Sri Krishna, namely Sri Meera, et al, will be made to accept the devotional offering to Smt. Radha?

BTW: I know that in temples, the archamurthis are all created within limits of shastra. That pranapratishtapanam is done to them. They are also perhaps associated with specific chakras and yantras placed underneath their respective idols. What then goes into Smt. Radharani's composition?

 

[mkrishna100]

I faintly remember reading a katha at the book 'Maha Bhakta Vijayam'. It says someone doubted about a great bhakta's (saint) true bhakti. And the doubter having visited the bhakta's home asked the bhakta if he can make the Radha-Krishna mural in the wall come alive.

..


After reading the above quote I remember the following verse from Kanndasan's song "Ullam Enbadhu Aamai " from the Movie Paarthal Pasitheerum

deivam endraal athu deivam
athu silai endraal verum silai thaan...
undendraal athu undu...
illai endraal athu illai
illai endraal athu illai....

 

[JR]

..


After reading the above quote I remember the following verse from Kanndasan's song "Ullam Enbadhu Aamai " from the Movie Paarthal Pasitheerum

deivam endraal athu deivam
athu silai endraal verum silai thaan...
undendraal athu undu...
illai endraal athu illai
illai endraal athu illai....

Well said, Sir! :thumb:

 

[prasad1]

My point here is that Radha may not find a mention in any of the puranas or itihasas and that will not make her unreal. She might have been one of those hundreds of gopikas who participated in the Rasaleela with Sri Krishna. Even if it was not so, it might be a name given to one of the Gopikas by a bhakta down the line. The point is that it does not really matter at all.

When Krishna left Gopies in Brindhavan he was 10 years old. The maiden who might have played ras-lila were probably older than him. It might have been a love between like one among sibling (in a village). To give it a sexual meaning is corrupting that love.
Instead of GitaGovindam it might have been Umar-Khayam. The cult of Radha has given bad name to Krishna.

 

[auh]

very interesting kudimi pudi...

just as arjuna - krishna stands for staunch friends in the human bonds and as nara - narayana in the spiritual, radha - krishna could very well stand for lovers in the human bond and as jivatma - paramatma in the spiritual.

in this context, the work of jayadeva could very well be seen as both amorous and divine... depending on your cup of preference.

from wiki, about Vaisnava-Sahajiya

The tradition used the romance between Krishna and Radha as a metaphor for union with God, and sought to experience that union through its physical reenactment. It teaches that the ideal way to understand the union of humanity is to transcend the profane aspects of sexual intercourse and experience it as a divine act.

 

[Vaagmi]

When Krishna left Gopies in Brindhavan he was 10 years old. The maiden who might have played ras-lila were probably older than him. It might have been a love between like one among sibling (in a village). To give it a sexual meaning is corrupting that love.
Instead of GitaGovindam it might have been Umar-Khayam. The cult of Radha has given bad name to Krishna.

When Krishna was 10 years old Radha was 8 years old. she became a beautiful maiden when Krishna became a lad. They loved each other intensely. They told me this yesterday. They also said that they did not know any one by name Umar-Khayyam.

Before going away they also said this. Those who look at our story with a corrupt mind will find all their corrupt ideas lived by us. Those good people who look at us as just jivatman and paramatman are the blessed ones. They will find in us a divine Sayujyam happening.

Now I think this should settle the matter as the two concerned individuals have told me this. So this becomes history as different from unbelievable mythology.

So,another day another controversy and it can be even another ashtapathi. LOL. Till then bye.

 

[sarang]

Good andal's nachchiyar thirumozhi has escaped the yellow eyes!

 

[a-TB]

very interesting kudimi pudi...

just as arjuna - krishna stands for staunch friends in the human bonds and as nara - narayana in the spiritual, radha - krishna could very well stand for lovers in the human bond and as jivatma - paramatma in the spiritual.

in this context, the work of jayadeva could very well be seen as both amorous and divine... depending on your cup of preference.

from wiki, about Vaisnava-Sahajiya

Mr auh:

Good summary and said in few words without compromising personal integrity or attacks.
In the end it is all about faith. A subtext that is unsaid is 'don't argue with a believer' based on your cup of tea/preference.

 

[a-TB]

It is simple and straight. Let us not go to Brahma Vaivartha purana or any other purana.

Jayadeva wrote Ashtapathi. In one of the stanzas he wrote what has been the subject of the OP in this thread. From there the arguments are flying left and right about what he wrote. One of the charges against him which you have been repeatedly driving at is that there was no Radha at the time of Krishna. If she was there her name would have found a place in this purana or that purana. They are not there in those puranas and so Radha is not Radha.

My point here is that Radha may not find a mention in any of the puranas or itihasas and that will not make her unreal. She might have been one of those hundreds of gopikas who participated in the Rasaleela with Sri Krishna. Even if it was not so, it might be a name given to one of the Gopikas by a bhakta down the line. The point is that it does not really matter at all.

We have Radha now in ashtapathi engaged in amorous play with Sri Krishna. She represents Jivatma in dalliance with Paramatma. This is enough for believers like me. We do not dissect every tissue of the mythological/literary/puranic/aitihasic characters to the level of the DNAs to trace their ancestry/name/gender etc., That is a wasteful exercise. A wasteful dukrinjkarane. We have no respect for the views of people who indulge in such dukrinjkarane either, whether it is a sangom or a Bankum. LOL.

I can't but think of the hypocrisy of calling others as speaking lies because they truly believe that Tulsi divined that Rama worshiped Siva at Rameswaram as described in Tulsi Ramayana but not found to be described in Valmiki Ramayana. Yes, LoL

Let me quote from post 102 "

Please try to learn and understand. Till then try to understand and come to terms with your ignorance. Peace be with you." as the remedy! LoL​

 

[a-TB]

I am impressed with the posts of reason by Madam Renuka and Mr Zebra:

Let me highlight a few statements that stuck me :

Mr Zebra who seems to be an expert scholar said "

There is not a single post refuting what Sri Sangom said as content of the Brahmavaivartha PuraNam and the posters are busy furnishing their own home made explanations, including Mukhri comedy" in post 105 which still stands true.

A wise quote from Madam Renuka's post 106 "

Its not so difficult to understand the connection between Love and Bhakti.

Love is an addiction..and Bhakti is a delusion!LOL"

Yes LoL - I know there are true devotees in the world but the delusion is Mr Vaagmi description of devotion it seems !

Mr Zebra had a wonderful analogy that made his point crystal clear in post 105 "

So suddenly you apply the rules of motor vehicle licencing of Malaysia to India and disqualify the drivers possessing driving licence issued by Government of India"

I think there are many more gems but I will stop here.

My point is that there are true devotees but hypocrisy and insults cannot be called devotion.

Also I noticed that Mr Prasad was trying to reason with specifics from Puranas about dates of when Lord Krishna moved about. These are never answered as well.​

​

I enjoyed reading many posts and the jarring posts by Mr Vaagmi made the others come across that much sweeter.

​

 

[Vaagmi]

I can't but think of the hypocrisy of calling others as speaking lies because they truly believe that Tulsi divined that Rama worshiped Siva at Rameswaram as described in Tulsi Ramayana but not found to be described in Valmiki Ramayana. Yes, LoL

Let me quote from post 102 "

Please try to learn and understand. Till then try to understand and come to terms with your ignorance. Peace be with you." as the remedy! LoL​

I enjoyed reading this post.

 

[Vaagmi]

I am impressed with the posts of reason by Madam Renuka and Mr Zebra:

Let me highlight a few statements that stuck me :

Mr Zebra who seems to be an expert scholar said "

There is not a single post refuting what Sri Sangom said as content of the Brahmavaivartha PuraNam and the posters are busy furnishing their own home made explanations, including Mukhri comedy" in post 105 which still stands true.

A wise quote from Madam Renuka's post 106 "

Its not so difficult to understand the connection between Love and Bhakti.

Love is an addiction..and Bhakti is a delusion!LOL"

Yes LoL - I know there are true devotees in the world but the delusion is Mr Vaagmi description of devotion it seems !

Mr Zebra had a wonderful analogy that made his point crystal clear in post 105 "

So suddenly you apply the rules of motor vehicle licencing of Malaysia to India and disqualify the drivers possessing driving licence issued by Government of India"

I think there are many more gems but I will stop here.

My point is that there are true devotees but hypocrisy and insults cannot be called devotion.

Also I noticed that Mr Prasad was trying to reason with specifics from Puranas about dates of when Lord Krishna moved about. These are never answered as well.​

​

I enjoyed reading many posts and the jarring posts by Mr Vaagmi made the others come across that much sweeter.

​

This takes the cake. I enjoyed this too. LOL.

 

[tbs]

hi
i enjoyed astapathi in the kerala temples...especially in guruvayur temple.....i used to remember these astapathis.....when i was 8 yrs old....it is a beautiful

love and VIRAHA in slokas....like THAVA VIRAHE KESAVA.....any way just enjoy the philosophy of jivatma/paramatma in sagiuna

brahman...

 

[Raji Ram]

There exists one of my cousins, who believes others ONLY when what they say gives him some financial benefit. opcorn:

According to him, all others in the family are liars! :spy:

 

[renuka]

Dear Renuka,

Ofcourse there is a certain eligibility for reading some works. One has to be a bhakta to feel the bhakti rasa. Otherwise one would get misguided into thinking the message is something else.

Great, you are reading Valmiki Ramayana! Can I ask you to be equally nice when reading about Sri Rama, Sri Sita and their friends as you would be when reading about Ravana! Just kidding, it is a proud accomplishment and I wish you well for reading it. Someday I hope to read it too, albeit with English translations.

Warmly,

JR

Dear JR,

I read up to third chapter in Balakandha yesterday...can't wait to continue reading today.
But frankly speaking I feel no Bhakti whatsoever but there is a feeling of excitement though..cos I seem to want to read fast ..cant wait for Ravan to enter the scene eventually!

I like this book cos it has no translation..so its a good exercise to improve my Sanskrit.

BTW one must not feel "proud" of any attempt to read any religious text cos once pride of accomplishment enters our mind our understanding would be flawed.

One should always read any text with a blank mind.

BTW JR...since you are in USA..why don't you contact Samskrita Bharati USA and learn Sanskrit in depth and this will help you eventually read the Ramayan in Sanskrit..you are an intelligent woman..learning Sanskrit is not that hard...you should try it.

 

[renuka]

There is no salvation for you. LOL. Narayana, intha ponnukku nalla budhdhiyakkuduppaa. LOL.


understanding that comes after suffering is pyrhic. Human nature is to avoid such understandings.

.
2. Narayana! Narayana!! Inthaponnukku nalla budhdhiyakkuduppaa. LOL.

Dear Vaagmi ji,

Is there really salvation for anyone?
When we are not actually bound why do we need salvation?
If you feel you are bound..only then you need salvation.
I don't consider myself bound...I simply exist.


The understanding that comes after a bout of 'suffering' leaves impressions in our mind..it makes us more aware of any situation.
Its like a minor Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome.

It might scar us for a while but all scars heal with time but the lessons learned are invaluable.

One learns from all situations in life..be it joyful or sorrowful..those who have an understanding of life's ups and downs would know to sail along with it and come out of the worst depression eventually.

For those who only want 24/7 euphoria and do not want to face adversity..well they can always call themselves Bhaktimans and dance in ecstasy...Denial is also Bliss!LOL

 

[Vaagmi]

Renukaji,

For those who only want 24/7 euphoria and do not want to face adversity..well they can always call themselves Bhaktimans and dance in ecstasy...Denial is also Bliss!LOL

You are back in square one. You have not only not understood what bhakti is, you have never even made an attempt to know it. A time will come when you will learn what it is. Till then good luck.

 

[renuka]

Renukaji,



You are back in square one. You have not only not understood what bhakti is, you have never even made an attempt to know it. A time will come when you will learn what it is. Till then good luck.

Ok lets get real.

I would want you to define Bhakti in a way best known to you.

It would logical that the definition of Bhakti would differ from individual to individual cos we humans interpret phenomenons differently.

Before that let me define Bhakti.

Frankly speaking I don't really know how to define Bhakti..is Bhakti an act of love or devotion or dedication or even desperation?

Well it could be any one of the above or even all of it or none of it.

Let's see..right now when I am reading the Ramayan..I feel absolutely blank but I have noted that my speed of reading seems very fast..much faster than reading any other text..may be becos I have an interest in Ravan!LOL

So is that Bhakti at least to Ravan? Heck No..I don't know!

Ok..next..when I see any devotional movie..if I am all alone..I do admit at times I get tears from my eyes..reason? I don't know..it just comes at times especially if its a male God...eg Krishna movies.

If its a Goddess Amman movie mostly I don't get tears..the female God concept does not really go too well with me!

When I go to temples..I don't feel anything at all..in fact I keep looking at everyone around..I find a temple distracting.
I do not like crowd as much.
I remember when I was in India as a student I went to a Krishna temple at 12 midnight and sat outside the gate with a friend.
I felt "nice and calm" but my friend was wondering which sane person prays at midnight!LOL

So was that an act of Bhakti? I don't know.

I am too simple minded to even ask myself if I have Bhakti...that answer if I have Bhakti or not should come from God and not from me.

As a human one can claim to be anything ...to be a Bhaktiman or a Superman(LOL)..but finally its up to God to decide who has Bhakti.

So Vaagmi ji...you are right ..I have not only not understood what Bhakti is, I have never even made an attempt to know it.

The question is 'How are you so sure you have Bhakti?"

 

[tks]

Just one more post on Devakriya.

The derived rAgam is known as Janya rAgam and the 'mother' rAgam is Janaka rAgam.

When some swaras don't appear in a rAgam, there can be more than one Janaka rAgam and it is chosen by the gamakams used in the

ragam. Devakriya has R1, M1, D1 and can't be Janya of any of the three rAgams (viz) Kharaharapriya, Natabhairavi or SankarabharaNam

because all the three have R2. Though some Janaka rAgams are possible for Devakriya (for example MAyAmALavagowla and Thodi

which also have R1, M1, D1) , it is considered to be the Janya rAgam of KanakAngi - The first rAgam in the mELa chakram.

P.S: This post is for those who are interested in theory of Carnatic music. Others please excuse!

Smt Raji - Thanks. My use of Janya (born from) instead of Janaka ('mother') was incorrect even from the simple meaning implied.
Often I type directly and post without revising, which is not a good habit.

In any case thanks for the detailed analysis (R1 vs R2) and why only Kanakangi can be the Janaka Ragam for this

 

[krish44]

There exists one of my cousins, who believes others ONLY when what they say gives him some financial benefit. opcorn:

According to him, all others in the family are liars! :spy:

Did you fail your relatives finance test.?......

 

[Raji Ram]

Did you fail your relatives finance test.?......

:nono: Sir!

He is after some written off money and is serious to gather some guys, to echo his statements! :grouphug:

 

[Raji Ram]

....... In any case thanks for the detailed analysis (R1 vs R2) and why only Kanakangi can be the Janaka Ragam for this

Welcome, Sir.

It makes me feel very happy when I write something about music.

 

[JR]

Dear JR,

I read up to third chapter in Balakandha yesterday...can't wait to continue reading today.
But frankly speaking I feel no Bhakti whatsoever but there is a feeling of excitement though..cos I seem to want to read fast ..cant wait for Ravan to enter the scene eventually!

I like this book cos it has no translation..so its a good exercise to improve my Sanskrit.

BTW one must not feel "proud" of any attempt to read any religious text cos once pride of accomplishment enters our mind our understanding would be flawed.

One should always read any text with a blank mind.

BTW JR...since you are in USA..why don't you contact Samskrita Bharati USA and learn Sanskrit in depth and this will help you eventually read the Ramayan in Sanskrit..you are an intelligent woman..learning Sanskrit is not that hard...you should try it.

Dear Renuka,

No matter what reason one reads Ramayanam, one will be blessed. Hatred of Sri Hari procured moksha to Shishupala. Hatred of Sri Rama procured moksha to Ravana. So whether you are reading it purely for academic reasons or for love of Ravana, you will be blessed by Sri Ramachandra!

I do have 1 request to ask of you (rather beg of you). They say with great accomplishments, comes great responsibility. Reading the original Valmiki muni's work endows you with authority to speak on Sri Rama, Sri Sita and others. I request you to thus always bear in mind the responsibility you incur out of this authority, of the need to not offend the pure devotees of Sri Ramachandra with knowledge! It should not become like the proverb, "படிப்பது ராமாயணம், இடிப்பது பெருமாள் கோயில்"...

Also, pride of accomplishment is not the same as the 'pride' that is one of the 6-fold flaws of human nature. Pride of accomplishment is the simple joy of participating in one thing and the achieving it! For example, I cook well, it is the pride of accomplishment I have on cooking, but not the feeling that 'only I cook well' (pride).

I thank you for the info on learning Sanskrit. I will look into it sometime.

Kind regards,

JR