The Final Problem

[Nara]

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Even 'mantra's can produce children! We have to ask Kunti Devi for details.

If only she will answer back, no Mrs. RR?

Cheers!

 

[renuka]

For example when exactly in the stage of development of the embryo does the soul fit into it? and so on.

Ok Sravna,

There are 2 schools of thoughts on this.

Paramahansa Yogananda says..that Soul enters are time of conception.

Siva Subramuniya Swami says..soul is chosen at time of conception but attached by an astral cord that connects the growing fetus to the soul but the soul doesnt enter as yet till some few months later..its as if the soul has booked the seat of its developing body and hovers closely connected by the astral cord.

Ok some orthodox views are that the soul enters the body around 4th month cos thats when the mother feels the baby kicking/moving hence the term Quickening (from the Bible..the quick and the dead)

This I feel is not right becos on Ultrasound we see the movement of fetus even at 8-9 weeks of conception.The mother only feels movement at 4 months cos at that time the uterus is big enough to transmit the feeling of the movement of the fetus to the mothers abdominal wall.

I also read before that Consciousness of the fetus develops at 4 months and thats why its commonly thought that the soul enters the fetus at 4 months.

 

[renuka]

No, no that is too scientific an answer. I know I asked for it! Reproduction does not necessarily need to happen in the way we know it happens now.

I used to tell my mother when I was young.."why couldnt we humans have a cocoon and hang the cocoon on some tree and pick up the baby 9 months later"

 

[renuka]

Dear Sravna,

Living with Siva, Chapter 33: Birth, Abortion And Suicide

Monday
LESSON 225
Conception And Birth
I am often asked, "What is the point at which a soul enters into a new incarnation?" Many advanced souls choose their parents long before conception, electing to live in their homes, especially if the parents worship. Especially if they were relatives in a past life, they want to be born back into those families to work out their karmas. Therefore, a soul may become connected with his mother-to-be long before conception. An unreligious couple that does not seek the inner forces at the moment of conception or slightly before, depending on wherever they are -- in a hospital or hotel -- may attract and draw into the process of incarnation anybody who is magnetized to them. I call this "potluck off the astral plane," even the lower astral. Someone could die in a hospital and, in a motel three blocks down the street, be immediately conceived. If the husband and wife had been fighting and arguing, this could magnetize a child that would not help the family, but instead would disrupt the household. The difference between the two situations is that one family is thinking of the Divine at the time of conception and the other is living an ordinary life with no contact with the inner, spiritual forces.

In either case, when the fetus starts to move in the womb, the soul simultaneously enters and occupies physical life, fully incarnates, or enters flesh. That's when the soul is totally "hooked in," around three or four months. It's there before, hovering near the mother, but not fully connected. The 2,200-year-old Tirumantiram of Rishi Tirumular tells us in verses 453-455 that from the moment of conception a soul is associated with the growing physical form of the infant. He says that at the instant of conception, as vital fluids are released and flow from both parents, the embryo is formed; the twenty-five tattvas rush in and lie concealed within its third eye, ajna chakra.At this point, life begins. For nine months, the embryo, then fetus, develops physically, and the soul that will inhabit the physical form gradually awakens to First-World embodied consciousness, becoming more or less fully conscious of its new physical form at birth.

It is good to understand that the soul exists in the macrocosm within the microcosm. It has no need of traveling to or from; it is where its awareness is. Outward forms, even physical bodies, do not depend on the soul's awareness being present constantly, just as you are not dead when you are asleep. As you might say, "I was not in my body," after you find yourself day dreaming, in the same sense, the soul is not constantly in the infant body while it is growing in the womb.

The life of the body is odic, and it runs on by itself. The spiritual energies and presence of the soul dominating the physical, emotional and mental elements is what makes us human. As Rishi Tirumular says, the moment life departs the body, the cherished friend becomes merely a bad smell. The soul's association with the body -- the "nine-holed bag of skin" -- is life. It begins at conception and continues until the moment of death. In summary, the soul is psychically connected and increasingly aware of its physical body in the womb throughout the pregnancy, just as the soul is connected with the physical body outside the womb until the moment of death.

At the time of birth, the previous astral body is still there. The new astral body grows within the child, and the old astral body is eventually sloughed off. It's not immediate. Like moving into a new house, it takes time to get settled. A newborn baby sometimes looks like an old person right from the beginning. This is because it has an old astral body. As the child gains its new identity, a new astral body is formed from the ida of the mother and thepingala of the father, and that development is enhanced by harmony between the parents. It is a slow transition.

Just as the former physical body finally disintegrates, its old astral body does also. It takes time for these things to happen. For older souls it takes a shorter time. Still, it's a gradual transition. As one astral body develops, the other goes. Once in Virginia City I inwardly saw a young girl running around dressed in the old Western style clothing as an adult, and I knew that this was her old astral body. A child may be able to remember who he was in his last life until the old astral body dissipates.

 

[sravna]

Dear Renuka,

Some thoughts. It seems to me that a soul has a range of something say energy or whatever and is attached to a body till the energy or whatever of the body is within the bounds. The bond with the body would be strongest at birth and gradually weakens as the body begins to lose its vitality. When the bound is exceeded the normal departure of soul from the body happens.

Now if you are able to create a body that is in the same bounds of that something and if it is possible to create that , you have created another receptacle for your soul. What would happen in such a case? One can only speculate. But in normal transmigration what would happen? The soul moves from one body to another, both not present simultaneously. And what happens to the soul after death? Does that range of something I am talking about change? I think it should because the soul fits into a different body.

I think without the right spiritual knowledge one cannot make much progress in this direction. But intuitively it seems plausible to me with the right knowledge.

 

[renuka]

Dear Renuka,

Some thoughts. It seems to me that a soul has a range of something say energy or whatever and is attached to a body till the energy or whatever of the body is within the bounds. The bond with the body would be strongest at birth and gradually weakens as the body begins to lose its vitality. When the bound is exceeded the normal departure of soul from the body happens.

Now if you are able to create a body that is in the same bounds of that something and if it is possible to create that , you have created another receptacle for your soul. What would happen in such a case? One can only speculate. But in normal transmigration what would happen? The soul moves from one body to another, both not present simultaneously. And what happens to the soul after death? Does that range of something I am talking about change? I think it should because the soul fits into a different body.

I think without the right spiritual knowledge one cannot make much progress in this direction. But intuitively it seems plausible to me with the right knowledge.

Will get back shortly or may be tomorrow need to read up a book I have "what happens after death"

 

[renuka]

Dear Renuka,

Some thoughts. It seems to me that a soul has a range of something say energy or whatever and is attached to a body till the energy or whatever of the body is within the bounds. The bond with the body would be strongest at birth and gradually weakens as the body begins to lose its vitality. When the bound is exceeded the normal departure of soul from the body happens.

Let me try to answer this part before I sign off for the day(I am working half day today)
Do you really think its a weakening of the energy bond? Like a handphone not getting charged and ceases to function or is it that each person comes with a Karmic time frame for our life in the gross world?

 

[sravna]

Let me try to answer this part before I sign off for the day(I am working half day today)
Do you really think its a weakening of the energy bond? Like a handphone not getting charged and ceases to function or is it that each person comes with a Karmic time frame for our life in the gross world?

Dear Renuka,

Yes the former I think is just the mechanism by which our destiny is carried out

 

[Raji Ram]

If only she will answer back, no Mrs. RR?

Yes Mr. Prof. Sir!!

 

[Raji Ram]

I used to tell my mother when I was young.."why couldnt we humans have a cocoon and hang the cocoon on some tree and pick up the baby 9 months later"

Y wait for nine months, Renu! The stork brings the baby straight away!!

 

[Yamaka]

Thanks for the detailed biological explanation. One thing I would like to posit though: cloning is not a way of avoiding death. Just like, having a twin sibling or even children. They are individuals having identical or very similar gene structure, but they are different individuals nevertheless.

Dolly the sheep's clone was more like a twin sister. If Dolly dies, Dolly dies, that's the end of that individual.

Scientists may look at prolonging the life of the individual by understanding MORE about the telomeres and the process of DNA replication, and aspects of RNA polymerase in transcribing for new proteins and enzymes, and fats etc in ageing cells.

Equally well, they can work on human cloning to propagate Yamaka, Sravna, Nara, Shiv and others forever, after establishing legal parameters for their health and personal needs and sustenance etc..

It's all in the future for the Scientists to achieve... that's the promise of Science and the Scientific PROCESS.

Where does the Religion & God go from here, anyway?

Cheers.

 

[Raji Ram]

Kunthi Devi reminds me of a joke from S V Sekhar's drama:

One guy wants to play cards, sitting down and says in Chennai Senthamizh:

"வாங்கப்பா! குந்திகிட்டே வெளையாடலாம்!"

His friend replies:

"குந்திகிட்டே எல்லாம் வெளையாட முடியாது; அவங்க மஹாபாரத காலத்திலே வாழ்ந்தவங்க; இப்போ இல்லே!"

 

[renuka]

Dear Renuka,

Yes the former I think is just the mechanism by which our destiny is carried out

Sravna,

I couldnt resists logging in to type this..I was thinking of this during lunch and I feel I will go by the Karmic Time frame and not by the Energy Bond.

Reasons:

1)If energy bond is strongest at birth and weakens as we get older and finally shuts down and physical death happens..if this is true there should not be any death in utero ,any still birth ,any infant death or any death at a young age.

2)I go by the Karmic Time Frame cos death can come knocking at our door at any age and time and Death(Yama) is also known as Kaala(Time).

A state beyond death is called Kaalaathita(Kaala=Time, Athita=crossed,beyond)

 

[sravna]

Sravna,

I couldnt resists logging in to type this..I was thinking of this during lunch and I feel I will go by the Karmic Time frame and not by the Energy Bond.

Reasons:

1)If energy bond is strongest at birth and weakens as we get older and finally shuts down and physical death happens..if this is true there should not be any death in utero ,any still birth ,any infant death or any death at a young age.

2)I go by the Karmic Time Frame cos death can come knocking at our door at any age and time and Death(Yama) is also known as Kaala(Time).

A state beyond death is called Kaalaathita(Kaala=Time, Athita=crossed,beyond)

No Renuka, I am talking about the natural wear and tear of the body. If infant or foetus death happens, the body was in a very bad shape to start with.

Karmic thing I agree without doubt. But I was talking about the way it physically happens.

 

[C RAVI]

Scientists may look at prolonging the life of the individual by understanding MORE about the telomeres and the process of DNA replication, and aspects of RNA polymerase in transcribing for new proteins and enzymes, and fats etc in ageing cells.

Equally well, they can work on human cloning to propagate Yamaka, Sravna, Nara, Shiv and others forever, after establishing legal parameters for their health and personal needs and sustenance etc..

It's all in the future for the Scientists to achieve... that's the promise of Science and the Scientific PROCESS.

Where does the Religion & God go from here, anyway?

Cheers.

Shri Yamaka,

You say that science with gaining of much more sound and strong knowledge/understanding of human/animals body anatomy, in due course of time, can succeed in prolonging the life.

As you said, if this happenes, than I think there will be some work out on the basis of which it would be determined as to what limited time span humans would be allowed to surrvive on this Earth. Say may be 200 years or max.300 years??

It sounds great!!!!!! May be??


I have a question here, I am much concerned with...Just remaining alive for 100 or more years is not sensible unless a person could be healthy and enjoy his life reasonably.

Instead of attempting towards enhancing the desired surviving years, why science is not attempting and coud not succed in the following, so that human can die only due natural aging and dying process? -

1) Able to recognize the symptoms of a dease at an earlier/initial stage, without fail, so that patients need not undergo sufferings, atleast upto before the age of 60.

2) To develope such medicines that would be enough to ensure the health of the fetus through out the growing process and the baby takes birth without been effected by any sort of ailments/handicap.

3) Develop such medicines that would cease the existence of Mental Hospitals, atleast for people below 60 years who all got mentally effected.

4) Develop such effective medicines that would never fail to cure any sort of malfunctions of the organs, without the need of organ transplantation, atleast upto the age of 60 years.

5) Make such advancements that could regenerate limbs of a person who got his limbs mutilated in an accident, as long as the person is below 60 years of age.


That is, to achieve all the above great advancements atleast for the people below 60 years of age, supposing that from 60 years of age, the wear and tear of the whole body can not be influenced upon.

If medical science attempts and could succeed in achieving the above, atleast upto the age of 60 years of a human, that would be the most desirable progress for the betterment of human survival.

 

[ozone]

Bhishma chose when to die. All science has to do is ponder over this.

 

[Raji Ram]

Bhishma chose when to die. All science has to do is ponder over this.

Will science believe that Bhishma existed? !

 

[ozone]

Will science believe that Bhishma existed? !

If they have an open mind I suppose. Sample this
Scientific Verification of the Vedas 2 - YouTube

 

[Yamaka]

Shri Yamaka,

You say that science with gaining of much more sound and strong knowledge/understanding of human/animals body anatomy, in due course of time, can succeed in prolonging the life.

As you said, if this happenes, than I think there will be some work out on the basis of which it would be determined as to what limited time span humans would be allowed to surrvive on this Earth. Say may be 200 years or max.300 years??

It sounds great!!!!!! May be??


I have a question here, I am much concerned with...Just remaining alive for 100 or more years is not sensible unless a person could be healthy and enjoy his life reasonably.

Instead of attempting towards enhancing the desired surviving years, why science is not attempting and coud not succed in the following, so that human can die only due natural aging and dying process? -

1) Able to recognize the symptoms of a dease at an earlier/initial stage, without fail, so that patients need not undergo sufferings, atleast upto before the age of 60.

2) To develope such medicines that would be enough to ensure the health of the fetus through out the growing process and the baby takes birth without been effected by any sort of ailments/handicap.

3) Develop such medicines that would cease the existence of Mental Hospitals, atleast for people below 60 years who all got mentally effected.

4) Develop such effective medicines that would never fail to cure any sort of malfunctions of the organs, without the need of organ transplantation, atleast upto the age of 60 years.

5) Make such advancements that could regenerate limbs of a person who got his limbs mutilated in an accident, as long as the person is below 60 years of age.


That is, to achieve all the above great advancements atleast for the people below 60 years of age, supposing that from 60 years of age, the wear and tear of the whole body can not be influenced upon.

If medical science attempts and could succeed in achieving the above, atleast upto the age of 60 years of a human, that would be the most desirable progress for the betterment of human survival.

Dear Ravi:

1. Please recall what modern Medicine has done to humanity in the past 100 years. Fabulous progress has been achieved... Much more to come, because the PROCESS is going on relentlessly.

2. What you aspire has been largely achieved in the West. But it is not accessible to most of India91% or most of people in Haiti, Africa, Central and South America etc.

That's a different question... why Biomedical Research is not reaching all citizens of the world.

3. Most of Scientific Research is initiated by the Investigators, who decide what area to pursue with vigor and what area to ignore, although sometimes Policy Makers dictate by allocating Funds.

Here again, some politics is involved.

4. There are simple ways to keep one healthy up to age 70:

Calorie intake management, regular exercise, non smoking, good sleep, not drinking too much, not taking controlled "drugs" or substances etc have helped millions of people in India9% and in the West to live well up to age 70 to 75....

Regular Annual Physical Check Up will alert you to the problems in metabolism very early and you can take corrective measures.

My concern is only the non-availability of all the existing knowledge or information to the Aam Admi who is trapped inside the Gates of Hell of Poverty and Poor Skills in India and elsewhere.

Innum varum...

 

[biswa]

I used to tell my mother when I was young.."why couldnt we humans have a cocoon and hang the cocoon on some tree and pick up the baby 9 months later"

Nice idea, but I don't the level of bonding between parent and child will be the same.
For mammals the bonding continues even after birth. For humans, maybe all the way to 16 years?

 

[biswa]

Prime of youth!!! Then forget about 'mother' and natural birth... Man has to create a body and think of bringing it to life! ound:

I wouldn't rely too much on "man". Remember Frankenstein?

But really, what I am suggesting may not be too far fetched. A calf or a horse foal can stand on its own legs a few minutes after birth. All fish can swim right away. So it appears that if Nature (or God) wants an animal to be born mature, it can think of a way.

 

[Raji Ram]

Nice idea, but I don't the level of bonding between parent and child will be the same. For mammals the bonding continues even after birth. For humans, maybe all the way to 16 years?

Y only 16?

 

[Raji Ram]

.............. But really, what I am suggesting may not be too far fetched. A calf or a horse foal can stand on its own legs a few minutes after birth. All fish can swim right away. So it appears that if Nature (or God) wants an animal to be born mature, it can think of a way.

But you wrote 'prime youth', Biswa Sir!! :typing:

 

[Raji Ram]

Image of Frankenstein, from Wikipedia: :fear:

 

[biswa]

Ok, what I was getting at was that. Wouldn't it be good for the individual if they appeared (were born) in a robust shape, never decayed, never became weak, never died? Why haven't we evolved to do that?