Seed of Thought (Social drinking by women and men)..

[Amirtha]

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Hmm.. In the write-up..? There a Dad expresses his opinion and the daughter expresses her opinions equally.. So where does it become opinionated..? And that too about people..? Any example..?

-TBT

Shri TBT

I meant messages not message or write up. However, still I can see it as opinionated. You are generalising the whole drinking population. Not all of them are rapists or aggressors . Not all the alcohol consumers required to go the rehab. It is only a small percentage who seek or forced to go for rehab due to lack of self control. Saying that I'm not recommending or encouraging alcohol consumption. For most of the people alcohol is addictive. For that matter anything is addictive if the gene expression if strong enough for that particular habit/taste, whatever you call it.

Society allows alcohol consumption. The government mostly is not banning alcohol. Some governments are very responsible in setting up supportive framework for alcohol abusers. Alcohol abuse is social issue that has to be dealt at the society level. It is not just brahmins issue only. It is issue across whole society.

Kind Regards

 

[Amirtha]

Ms.Amirtha,

I understand that the messages of Shri TBT are not zeroed-in on judging the characteristics of liquor drinking humans as bad or worst humans. The messages just attempts to emphasizes the fact that alcohol is harmful in many ways and it is need full to instill such thoughts in the minds of growing children.

These messages are inclined towards shaping the tendencies in growing children so that they can refrain from such habits and or can be careful in choosing their taste and limits.

Off course, it all depends on the people who are reading these messages and are parents and are non drinkers themselves with similar views, to get to know as how things can be presented to their children to make them refrain from drinking habits, in the present context of globalized environment where party without alcoholic drinking is no party even among growing teens.

The rest of the folks who don't find the messages meaningful and useful can well ignore them, as they are the better judge of their own.

I don't think, people/parents who drink and get into socialized drinking with their children need to feel guilty and go defensive reading these messages. At least not to consider them as attempting towards character assassination of drinking folks/families.

Just my thoughts and understanding that I wanted to share with you. It is not intended to find fault with you. Hope you can understand my POV.


Thank you.

Shri Ravi

Thank you for your input. I understand your POV. Presently I am pressed for time. I will address your message at the earliest possible.

Kind Regards

 

[thebigthinkg]

Shri TBT

I meant messages not message or write up. However, still I can see it as opinionated. You are generalising the whole drinking population. Not all of them are rapists or aggressors . Not all the alcohol consumers required to go the rehab. It is only a small percentage who seek or forced to go for rehab due to lack of self control. Saying that I'm not recommending or encouraging alcohol consumption. For most of the people alcohol is addictive. For that matter anything is addictive if the gene expression if strong enough for that particular habit/taste, whatever you call it.

Society allows alcohol consumption. The government mostly is not banning alcohol. Some governments are very responsible in setting up supportive framework for alcohol abusers. Alcohol abuse is social issue that has to be dealt at the society level. It is not just brahmins issue only. It is issue across whole society.

Kind Regards

OK, true, all alcohol consumers do not rape. But in U.S. 2/3rds of rape involved alcohol. In India, in urban areas it should be much more. Again in US, 40% of violent crimes involved alcohol. In India it will be much more.

Did I say it is a Brahmin issue..?

-TBT

 

[biswa]

It is not just the rapist who is influenced by alcohol. Most "date-rapes" in the US happen when the woman is "under the influence". Alcohol is also a convenient solvent for date-rape drugs that the rapists try to ply their victim with.

 

[amala]

Right so lets just ban alchohol altogether! Thats the only obvious solution people posting here seem to be hinting. Lets go the whole hog and ban tobacco, all types of drugs and lets just get women to stay home and not step out at all. That way she won't be raped. Er...what about if its someone at home?

 

[amala]

The problem, any problem is never ever going to be solved blaming the tools. Its the people using them that need to be educated. You can ban or demonise things but it will just go underground. Once you push it underground, it will be that much harder to monitor. Exactly like racism. People acting all PC doesn't mean they mean it or believe in it. They're just scared of legislation. Thats all.

 

[thebigthinkg]

Right so lets just ban alchohol altogether! Thats the only obvious solution people posting here seem to be hinting. Lets go the whole hog and ban tobacco, all types of drugs and lets just get women to stay home and not step out at all. That way she won't be raped. Er...what about if its someone at home?

The way u r equating "women staying home and not getting raped" with "alcohol influences rape" is plain wrong.

Research shows that alcohol impairs judgement and is a factor in rape cases. The relationship between alcohol and rape is well studied and well documented.

BTW, tobacco is slowly getting banned. There is a 'No smoking' ban in many parts of cities and towns. And this ban has been increasing. Can u deny it..?

Sure, drugs are also banned in most part of the world. Can u deny it..?

If banning smoking and drugs is equivalent to women staying at home, then in most parts of the world including Europe and America women would have to stay at home..

I am not sure how these two are connected..
-TBT

 

[thebigthinkg]

The problem, any problem is never ever going to be solved blaming the tools. Its the people using them that need to be educated. You can ban or demonise things but it will just go underground. Once you push it underground, it will be that much harder to monitor. Exactly like racism. People acting all PC doesn't mean they mean it or believe in it. They're just scared of legislation. Thats all.

But then that is the case. Why pretend it is not that..? When we demonize things and legislate against them, they will go underground, but at the same time their impact on society will reduce..

Over a period what is in underground reduces its impact or is not allowed to grow or when it grows it is fought hard against..

We have so many legislation against murder, rape, dacoity, robbery, theft, corruption, drugs, smoking etc etc etc.. Have they vanished..? NO. They have gone underground and are hard to monitor.

So what do we do..? Legalize murder, rape, dacoity, robbery, theft, corruption, drug use ......?

Hard to monitor, pushing to underground are not arguments for allowing or banning..

In fact I don't call for a ban on alcohol. I call for creation of a social stigma against alcohol.

-TBT

 

[prasad1]

Right so lets just ban alchohol altogether! Thats the only obvious solution people posting here seem to be hinting. Lets go the whole hog and ban tobacco, all types of drugs and lets just get women to stay home and not step out at all. That way she won't be raped. Er...what about if its someone at home?

You have come to good conclusion. :couch2:

We must talk of the impossibles before some rational solution is found.
In the western countries they have been trying to moderate drinking. Particularly drinking and driving, with mixed results.
I am a teetotaler, so banning alcohol is not a problem for me, but it is not a workable solution.

 

[prasad1]

Social and Cultural Aspects of Drinking - Introduction
History
Alcohol has played a central role in almost all human cultures since Neolithic times (about 4000 BC). All societies, without exception, make use of intoxicating substances, alcohol being by far the most common.
There is convincing evidence that the development of agriculture - regarded as the foundation of civilisation - was based on the cultivation of grain for beer, as much as for bread.
The persistence of alcohol use, on a near-universal scale, throughout human evolution, suggests that drinking must have had some significant adaptive benefits, although this does not imply that the practice is invariably beneficial.
From the earliest recorded use of alcohol, drinking has been a social activity, and both consumption and behaviour have been subject to self-imposed social controls.
Attempts at prohibition have never been successful except when couched in terms of sacred rules in highly religious cultures.

.........
Although some cultures experience more alcohol-related problems than others, moderate, unproblematic drinking is the norm in most cultures, while both excessive drinking and abstention are abnormal behaviours.
Most of the problems commonly ‘linked’ with drinking - crime, violence, disorder, accidents, spousal abuse, disease, etc. - are correlated with excessive (abnormal) drinking rather than with moderate (normal) drinking.

 

[thebigthinkg]

Sir,

As a person who has been associated with alcohol for long time, i can see through many things in such 'research' papers that are on an industry that is very powerful.

The true and balanced story is here
Moderate Drinking

It lists + and -. The whole problem is it is difficult to define what is 'moderate' and what is 'excess' drinking, as it depends on people, geography, cultural behaviors and patterns, genetics etc.

Indians (in general Asians) are genetically pre-disposed to fatty liver. They have their own issues and the term moderate will be different for them. Again inside them every person will have different yardsticks.

There is a lot of research happening in this area and there is no conclusion that has been yet arrived in studies related to moderate drinking.

-TBT

 

[amala]

I wasn't the one who wrote about alchohol playing apart in date rapes and how its an excellent solvent for date rape drugs. That post clearly implied to me that alchohol is in one way or another a tool for raping. And the last time i checked, in many parts of the world it is legalised and can be bought otc when one is 18 or 21. I think we should just ban everything. Why not?

I never implied in any way, shape or form that criminlaity should be legalised btw.

Today I was listening to a talk show where they were saying Bollywood films are to be blamed for rapes (a bit like alchohol). I think its too easy blaming alchohol, movies, provocatively dressed women (funny how that excuse hasn't been bandied around yet) for rape. The reality is only the rapist is to solely be blamed.

 

[prasad1]

I wasn't the one who wrote about alchohol playing apart in date rapes and how its an excellent solvent for date rape drugs. That post clearly implied to me that alchohol is in one way or another a tool for raping. And the last time i checked, in many parts of the world it is legalised and can be bought otc when one is 18 or 21. I think we should just ban everything. Why not?

I never implied in any way, shape or form that criminlaity should be legalised btw.

Today I was listening to a talk show where they were saying Bollywood films are to be blamed for rapes (a bit like alchohol). I think its too easy blaming alchohol, movies, provocatively dressed women (funny how that excuse hasn't been bandied around yet) for rape. The reality is only the rapist is to solely be blamed.

No it is not funny, there have been moral police out there, limiting women's choice in Dress, time they should go out, places they should not go, who should they go out with or not. It is sad that the Hindu-taliban is ready to moralize women.

 

[renuka]

No it is not funny, there have been moral police out there, limiting women's choice in Dress, time they should go out, places they should not go, who should they go out with or not. It is sad that the Hindu-taliban is ready to moralize women.

I was also reading an online article where people were blaming item numbers in movie for stirring up passion and lust in men which eventually contributes to rape!LOL

I felt like laughing reading it cos ITEM NUMBERS is part of our culture.

How many times in our Puranas we have read that when some person is doing rigid Tapas..invariably Indra will send one item number Apsara to distract the person?

So what is the big deal..item numbers have always been the part of our culture..so it does not really make a difference if the item number is singing Jalebi Bhai, Munni Badnaam Hui,Chikeni Chameli or En Peru Meena Kumari cos most probably the Apasaras of the yesteryugas would have sung these too.

 

[biswa]

But are you sure the apsaras were never raped? Indra regularly misbehaved with all the apsaras AFAIK. In some sense abduction and rape are also part of our culture, but perhaps they were sugar-coated in the epics?

 

[renuka]

No it is not funny, there have been moral police out there, limiting women's choice in Dress, time they should go out, places they should not go, who should they go out with or not. It is sad that the Hindu-taliban is ready to moralize women.

Dear Prasad ji,

I have a feeling many Indian man respect only their mothers and sisters but have less respect for other woman.
A friend of mine who is a Skin and STD specialist had lots of patients who work as Commercial Sex Workers(CSW).

He told me yesterday that a young Chinese CSW came for some ailment and she told him that she has stopped accepting Indian customers cos she said they do not respect her at all.

She said other races men..treat her like a service provider and give her the due respect and see her profession as a business transaction.

She said Indians treat her badly and they even use foul language on her.

 

[renuka]

But are you sure the apsaras were never raped? Indra regularly misbehaved with all the apsaras AFAIK. In some sense abduction and rape are also part of our culture, but perhaps they were sugar-coated in the epics?

Dear Biswa,

Sometimes I really wonder if all these Apsara stuff are true?

You see on earth we humans are supposed to live like saints..no alcohol, no illicit fornication, no non veg etc but just do a few Yagnas and one can attain the high heavens and up there..there are no rules there!..free wine,free women etc.

So why is it we can misbehave in heaven but we can not misbehave on earth?

 

[thebigthinkg]

I wasn't the one who wrote about alchohol playing apart in date rapes and how its an excellent solvent for date rape drugs. That post clearly implied to me that alchohol is in one way or another a tool for raping. And the last time i checked, in many parts of the world it is legalised and can be bought otc when one is 18 or 21. I think we should just ban everything. Why not?

I never implied in any way, shape or form that criminlaity should be legalised btw.

Today I was listening to a talk show where they were saying Bollywood films are to be blamed for rapes (a bit like alchohol). I think its too easy blaming alchohol, movies, provocatively dressed women (funny how that excuse hasn't been bandied around yet) for rape. The reality is only the rapist is to solely be blamed.

We can blame anything for anything.. But that does not lead us anywhere..

The point is in every man and woman there are tendencies that are clothed by value-systems that they have grown with. Depending on time the inner tendencies come out.

A man growing amongst robbers will not have any inhibitions being a robber. He gets conditioned to be that. If his close environment changes to a set of working people, he would try to move away from it.

Similarly a man/woman who have been conditioned into something for long will not go about raping or killing people. The same person if he gets into a crowd that exhibits macho beahvior may take part in gang rape.

If u look at the Guwahati incident in Assam, the girl was molested not by few drunkards, but by people who were passing by. Now immediately, don't attribute it to 'Indians'.

There are scores of incidents that are happening in US and Europe, where people involved in Binge drinking or exhibiting heavy drinking involve in arson, looting and rape crimes, who are otherwise very normal in their behavior.

There are hundreds of research materials on the net that talk about these behaviors.

So alcohol is very different from dresses, girls going out in night etc..

Mahatma Gandhi who fought for the freedom said the true independence to India has come that day when a girl walks out and returns safe at midnight wearing a lot of jewels. This is the path he showed us. So girls going out at night is NO excuse for rape activities.

We worship feminine gods who are semi-naked with rounded breasts and curved hips. Do we ogle at these godly statues for their form or worship them, seeking from the power to fight our woes..? So that is also not in our culture.

Banning anything is not sustainable. Hence it is not a great idea.

What we need to do is to create a stigma for it, so that people who tend to follow the crowd don't go for it easily.

-TBT

 

[renuka]

We worship feminine gods who are semi-naked with rounded breasts and curved hips. Do we ogle at these godly statues for their form or worship them, seeking from the power to fight our woes..? So that is also not in our culture.


-TBT

Sometimes when we read certain religious text we will be actually astonished to read the way poets describe goddesses..things like "Thy globular shaped breast bigger than a frontal protuberance of an elephant..Thy breasts so heavy that Thy waist bends forward with the weight..Thy lips as red as a ripe pomegranate"

First and foremost I have never seen any female who has elephantine size of mammary glands and also anyone walking bent becos of mammary gland weight.

We have to admit that imagination of poets ran wild..they should have known better not to describe a goddess rather suggestively cos they call goddesses O Mother but would they describe their own mothers like that?

I think the answer is obvious.

 

[Brahmanyan]

.

We have to admit that imagination of poets ran wild..they should have known better not to describe a goddess rather suggestively cos they call goddesses O Mother but would they describe their own mothers like that?

I think the answer is obvious.

Dear Doctor,

Exaggeration is the essence of Art. Poets and artists tend to exaggerate the subtle to bring out their excellence
by words and view. As a student of Sanskrit you must be knowing that our scriptures including "Soundarya Lahiri" describe the beauty of Goddess in unambiguous terms from head to foot.
Intoxicants and drugs were/are commonly used by followers of some religious sects in our country, both men and women in search of "divine" ecstasy. Drinking (both men and women) has never been a taboo among the working class, who find an outlet for their tension and poverty in the intoxication, but ruins the family.

The subject for this debate is an age old one, for which we cannot find an answer for certain.

Regards,
Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.

 

[renuka]

Dear Doctor,

Exaggeration is the essence of Art. Poets and artists tend to exaggerate the subtle to bring out their excellence
by words and view. As a student of Sanskrit you must be knowing that our scriptures including "Soundarya Lahiri" describe the beauty of Goddess in unambiguous terms from head to foot.
Intoxicants and drugs were/are commonly used by followers of some religious sects in our country, both men and women in search of "divine" ecstasy. Drinking (both men and women) has never been a taboo among the working class, who find an outlet for their tension and poverty in the intoxication, but ruins the family.

The subject for this debate is an age old one, for which we cannot find an answer for certain.

Regards,
Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.

Dear Sir,

I agree with what you wrote but I am yet to find a poet who has described any male form of divinity or any male for that matter in such microscopic detail.

Why don't they practice exaggeration when it comes to males?

Men are only generally described as good looking, well versed in art of warfare, well versed in Vedas, brave, Maharatha etc.

After all..the male also can be described starting from face, six pack,biceps,triceps,femorals etc

One can describe a brave man .... "the veins that traverse his arms are like tributaries of the confluence of rivers at Prayag..dilated from years of training in martial arts and archery..his shoulders are as broad as the horizon...sending women into a frenzy of desire, just like peacocks that get exited at the sight of impending rain"

Why no male poet describes a male like this?

 

[Brahmanyan]

Dear Sir,

I agree with what you wrote but I am yet to find a poet who has described any male form of divinity or any male for that matter in such microscopic detail.
Why don't they practice exaggeration when it comes to males?
Men are only generally described as good looking, well versed in art of warfare, well versed in Vedas, brave, Maharatha etc.
After all..the male also can be described starting from face, six pack,biceps,triceps,femorals etc
One can describe a brave man .... "the veins that traverse his arms are like tributaries of the confluence of rivers at Prayag..dilated from years of training in martial arts and archery..his shoulders are as broad as the horizon...sending women into a frenzy of desire, just like peacocks that get exited at the sight of impending rain"
Why no male poet describes a male like this?

Dear Doctor,

Take it easy....
I have no answer for your query.

Warm Regards,
Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.

 

[renuka]

Dear Doctor,

Take it easy....
I have no answer for your query.

Warm Regards,
Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.

Dear Sir,

Don't worry...I am only having fun!

 

[biswa]

Here is a recent article that may be relevant: Chug! Chug! Chug! Why More Women Are Binge Drinking | TIME.com

Of course this only describes female binge drinking in the land of "The Great Satan". I think my fellow Indians would like to believe that things are different in"The land where Ganga flows."

 

[prasad1]

Dear Prasad ji,

I have a feeling many Indian man respect only their mothers and sisters but have less respect for other woman.

That too only as long as they abide the code of that particular MAN.