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Science and religion

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In the discussions in many of the threads in this forums I find a distinguishing attitude towards science and religion. This is indeed a contentious topic and even I am a victim of the skepticism it generates in our mind. As this could be one of the reasons, us Brahmins are straying from our principles, be it abrahmin practises or intercaste marriage or the general disregard for spiritual concepts on the basis of logic and rationality introduced by the 'scientific movement'. Some ideas are shared below.




After the establishment of the Church of England (and similar entities across Europe), it found itself growing in power and influence over the administrative matters of the kingdom. Mahatma Gandhi has said that there is no religion without politics, perhaps he got the idea from the history of CoE. As the foundation of this particular institution was, evidently, built on the bible, any opinion contradicting the literal interpretation of the bible was suppressed. This, IMO, was one the pioneering moments in the separation of religion from science. (Remember Copernicus & the Catholic Church?)


Later when America was founded, it did it's best to separate itself from the hegemony of religious supremacy and embraced a more liberal attitude towards science and technology. The contrast grew distinctive during the last two centuries when USA embraced a vocational approach to higher education which the Europeans despised and mocked upon. Any new scientific breakthrough found its way into the universities and higher educational institutions in America and contributed the accelerated process of innovation. This was also complemented by the non-interfering and co-existing religious institutions. However, the liberal attitude towards religion and god also had its fair share in widening the gap. As innovation was embraced while the religion was discarded, the humans had to create identities and ideas in which they can find solace. This, IMO, was the reason for birth or popularity of segregation in religious establishments and of course Atheism.


I was born in a small town to a orthodox middle class brahmin family. I was not particularly initiated to the strict ways of brahminism, but everything basic was there. And then I was a student of technology and then I travelled abroad and got introduced to research, a process which now survives significantly on validating your thought process and hypothesis on previous research which those researchers themselves had borrowed from somewhere else. I am not condemning the system which exists on such delicate order and structure.


But we aren't anywhere close to provide a convincing understanding of our life (beyond money, power, facebook and gadgets) or even a proper cordial agreement on the interpretation of our prehistoric literature. Many of our proven foundations of society be it democracy of communism, we got it from our ancient literature (here we go again). The widely accepted scientific theories and principles are being challenged every now and then. We call ourselves rational (well, at least the economists do, thank god), and then there was Bertrand Russell who ironically spent his life looking for proof.


Sri Aurobindo, in his effort to instill the divine inspiration among the humanity often implied that we continue our futile quest for truth or a panacea through our logical approach of questioning and skepticism. But then the path to enlightenment is right before us, simply accept the divine in complete faith. I am not preaching blind faith, nor am I attempting to turn people away from scientific quest. But what concerns me is the concept of separating science and logic from spirituality.


We can explain how a car breaking down or the premature death of a baby. But we still haven't attained the wisdom to explain why it had to happen. Bruce Bueno de Mesquita, one of the smartest political thinkers alive today, exlpains it clearly. Our brain is incapable of making more than a few calculations at a time, that is why we need the computers. Sometimes what his numerical model tells him is against his own logic or interpretation, but then he has to trust the computer code which is has a precision of 90%.


Now going back to our mundane problems of intercaste marriages and abrahmin practices. We are now too preoccupied with finding logical explanations and solutions to our financial, social and relationship problems. There is no time to sit down and take a moment to see if our actions whether past, present or future make any sense. We have skewed our interpretations of what is right and what is wrong. We are too distracted. We find that caste is evil, is discrimination, without realising that practising rituals doesn't put anyone, let alone yourself at a disadvantage. We are prompted to accept that, when we embrace liberalism and despise religion and superstition, we have somehow evolved out of the system, and that if it cannot be explained it should not be believed.


There is nothing wrong with a son or daughter choosing life partners from other communities. If they fail to see the purpose and significance of a lineage, whether brahmin or other, and have no interest in practicing it in their lifetime, there is little prominence is insisting on marrying from the same community. But then the solution is in the family, and the community, not necessarily on one particular individual. If the parents care enough to teach and guide their children in the proper way there is little reason for the son to disagree with them.
 
E,

I love the E part of your moniker, and if you feel to tutor, even more better.

A couple of points sir.

One re CofE, I was under the impression, that when Henry VIII broke with rome, he founded the church, and it was not a matte of finding itself ‘growing in power and influence over the administrative matters of the kingdom’, but it essentially WAS the power and influence over the administrative matters. Ie top down, replacement, of the erstwhile entity, the roman church. This is an important factor, as later fragmentation of the anglo society with the founding of the 'bottoms up movements' ie Methodists and Baptists, sallyanns, were ‘outside’ the admin spiritual movement, which accommodated an America, where church & state was constitutionally separated, and till late 18th century, these existed uneasily, in a still absolute monarchical british environment.

I don’t want to argue on this with you, but as a tudor history buff this is how I understand the Reformation process happening in old blighty.

Re your point about the onus is on the society, and then family re propagation of values, it is said, that (in north America anyway), that the parental influence, while 100% pre school, wanes exponentially once the schooling starts, till teens, when the effect is not only zero, but along the negative curve. So, in fact, not only are parental values criticised, but they are activity to counter those values, are sometimes deliberately taken. As father of 3, I am only too familiar with such, and I have heard of other parents assenting to the same.

I read your point re ‘ஆயிரம் காலத்து பயிறு' ie if the lineage is lost, it is lost forever. that is ofcourse, only, if the parents themselves thinking, that there is any value in such a lineage, which, personally I think,the caste aspect, is but an albatross of ‘values’ definitely out of sync with today’s humanstic approach and our own community spread through geography. Last but not least, even for the most devout parents, and I can name a few such, the children, do not appear to see the value of the heritage and all amount of rudram and chamakam chanting, ended up with just that. chanting at the verbal level, with the mind far ahead or different to other value systems.

about a 100 years ago, we started a momentum to change, and while we did change selectively initially, i think, we are caught up int he momentum, and are unable to 'pick and choose now.. the changes is a whole culture, civilization and our tambram 'values' . for example, you exhort your son to study hard, get admitted to iit, go to usa, get a phd in ivy league, and then miss him terribly because the next logical step for him is to found a job to fit in with his hitherto achievements. where do you stop, and say, 'son, this is enough, iit is enough. now stay back next to me in india, get a job, marry the girl i chose for you, and take care of me in old age and let me play with the grandchildren that you should produce 10 months after marriage? where is the stop msg and is it fair? is it feasible? i think this is the dilemma of many parents maybe even in this forum with sons abroad!!

Whichever way I see it, with the encroachment of the global village through internet and telephony and video, and the education liberation of our women, we need to reinvent ourselves in our values, to a more inclusive Brahmin concept, one that should not shun from accepting newcomers either through marriage or faith. After all, no community can grow by shrinking. And I for, would definitely like our tambrams to grow.

Thank you.
 
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I recently began a blog On Science and Life where I write essays on Yoga, Physics, Chemistry, (My limited) understand of Vedas, etc. It only has a couple of entries thus far but I hope for it to grow. As we examine the science behind dimensions beyond 4 we find that the space in which entire universes can exist to be infinitesimally small in the 3rd dimensional space. These align so very closely with Vedic thought that an inherent beauty cannot be denied. When we look at the universe and it's energetic expansion we are able to see that there is indeed an all pervasive energy which drives all things forward through time and driving the expansion and growth of the universe. One could easily see parallels in the phenomenon of dark matter and Tantric concepts of Shakti. We may look back in time all the way to the Big Bang (Lord Natarajas Damru strike) which sets all things into motion via the cosmic microwave background. To analogously map this into an aural space the drone of the damru can be heard through White Noise which contains all frequencies to equal proportion and can even be seen as static on a TV set. The Vedas state that in the begining was Vak. I like to look at the bijams and Pranava and their harmonic content as reflections of this cosmic drone from which we are all born and the Vedas themselves as compilations of eternal sound elucidating these deep mysteries.
 
I appreciate your insights BostonSankara

kunjuppu

The E part comes from the childhood obsession with his theories. When the CERN announced the news that they may have found evidence to challenge the theory, I said to myself, 'you can't refute, it you can only understand it better'.

I acknowledge my ignorance about the CoE, nevertheless stand with rest of the claims.

About our lineage, I wrote it from my own experiences with my parents. I am not a parent myself yet, but I remember I had this liberal environment throughout my upbringing which presented opportunities to question everything, including as you said, our religion as I progressed academically. I had been religious, though in a nonchalant manner, then an agnostic an then when the crisis of unattained goals came up, an atheist.

I could say that I later chose to accept our lineage with all it rigour because I realised its significance or may be from predisposition. Still my parents were ardent believers of the system, (my father refused to attend my cousin's wedding and has banished her from our home for the future), just that it was a little inconspicuous and was emphasised only in moments of crises. If my parents had been any less strict about following the customs and beliefs, then I would have been a prodigal son.

As you mentioned, I agree with the concept that any individual notwithstanding his past should be accepted and recognised in our community provided he/she shows a genuine interest.
 
..., (my father refused to attend my cousin's wedding and has banished her from our home for the future), ...t.

E,

if you dont mind...

what was the reason for this extreme reaction from your parents? when did this happen?

did you agree with it then? do you agree with it now?

a secular education of sciences - did it not broaden your mind to the universality of values? humanity?

otherwise, do you consider yourself, - scratch your skin and no different thatn your ancestors?

i used to have school teacher who used to observe the difference in the way we imbibed science in india as opposed to europe. whereas in europe, it encouraged critical thinking of everything and all things including faith, in india, it was like the western clothes that my dad wore to work 8am - 6pm; before and after these hours, it was the white veshti, full banian and bare foot, no different than the previous generations ie western education is a superficial set of knowledge clothes that we wear, but deep in our hearts, we are unwilling/unable to shake off our heritage.

i am just saying this as observed by someone. there is no right or wrong in this.

similar was observed in time magazine a few years ago, after 9/11. it mentioned a karachi investment banker, who during work hours hobnobbed with the best and brightest of europe and usa, but once he came home, he went back to his baggy pajamas, 6 kids and 5 prayers a day; inspite of the 7 figure salary, he openly espoused for the destruction of the western thought and mind.

i feel the same about china. except i think they are a bit smarter - cunning enough to steal the best of the west, through stealth, leverage or graft, gain upon them, and ultimately bring the west down.

the future of the world, with its multi polar ambitions, is bound to be interesting :)
 
I recently began a blog On Science and Life where I write essays on Yoga, Physics, Chemistry, (My limited) understand of Vedas, etc. It only has a couple of entries thus far but I hope for it to grow. As we examine the science behind dimensions beyond 4 we find that the space in which entire universes can exist to be infinitesimally small in the 3rd dimensional space. These align so very closely with Vedic thought that an inherent beauty cannot be denied. When we look at the universe and it's energetic expansion we are able to see that there is indeed an all pervasive energy which drives all things forward through time and driving the expansion and growth of the universe. One could easily see parallels in the phenomenon of dark matter and Tantric concepts of Shakti. We may look back in time all the way to the Big Bang (Lord Natarajas Damru strike) which sets all things into motion via the cosmic microwave background. To analogously map this into an aural space the drone of the damru can be heard through White Noise which contains all frequencies to equal proportion and can even be seen as static on a TV set. The Vedas state that in the begining was Vak. I like to look at the bijams and Pranava and their harmonic content as reflections of this cosmic drone from which we are all born and the Vedas themselves as compilations of eternal sound elucidating these deep mysteries.


Dear Boston,

I always felt that being Vedic is actually being Scientific.
But sadly most people view Science and Spirituality in either end of the spectrum.
 
Dear Boston,

I always felt that being Vedic is actually being Scientific.
But sadly most people view Science and Spirituality in either end of the spectrum.

The conflict between science and religion is mostly due to abrahamic religion with an ancient book. Because this religion can not change with time, where as the science keeps evolving, it runs into conflicts. In Hinduism there is no one book as the authority, and no one leader as supreme leader, Hinduism can keep evolving. The philosophy can be interpreted by learned individuals in so many way. It also provides us with teachers (Guru's) that we can follow. So if a teacher does not fancy you anymore you can find one who will satisfy your needs.
So I have no conflict between my brand of Advaita philosophy and science in general.
 
what was the reason for this extreme reaction from your parents? when did this happen?

did you agree with it then? do you agree with it now?

a secular education of sciences - did it not broaden your mind to the universality of values? humanity?

otherwise, do you consider yourself, - scratch your skin and no different thatn your ancestors?


When they made the decision, I disagreed, though not explicitly. But I can understand the reasons behind his attitude (mother has come to terms with it but definitely not my father, he never will). It could be a wrong interpretation of my father's real feelings but I think he simply can't accept because of his own upbringing in a very strict household. PErhaps he had expectations about finding a suitable groom and marrying her off, taking some of the responsibilities on himself. So I don't disagree with him now.

He indeed has a point, unless we are ready to incorporate some sort of austerity in our lives, then aren't we just trying to seek out pleasures and desires. My family, including my uncles, aunts and cousins make up a traditional bunch. Middle class, with no intention of mixing tradition with modern. When you are in Rome do as Romans do, but back home things are still the same. I can't think of taking someone outside the caste to be my life partner. It has nothing to do with pride or prejudice. I will lose my identify and harmony with my own family.

As you mentioned the Chinese are an interesting lot. I met more than a few of them in University. Some of them don't really know what religion is, one of my housemates said she believes in her government. Fair enough. If you go to Singapore things are rather different. Many of them still go to temples, shrines or whatever but the lifestyle is largely western. But the drawback is evident. While the grown up people continue to maintain some of the traditions or values including in cooking, the young population is not any different from the west. The culture slowly dissolves and gradually disappear.


Also my father has another valid point. Disintegration is epidemic. If one family member chooses intercaste marriage and when the rest of the family accepts it, the younger generation will assume that is right. This tradition and heritage that we talk about survive on the perception of value by its lineage. And intercaste marriage sets the wrong trend.

There are few religions that encompasses as diverse a philosophy as Hinduism. It is as liberal it gets. Only if we could take the effort in understanding it better.
 
Dear Boston,

I always felt that being Vedic is actually being Scientific.
But sadly most people view Science and Spirituality in either end of the spectrum.


Dear Renuka:

There is a book called "The Fabric of the Cosmos", written by Brian Greene.
It deals with space, time and the texture of reality. If you have time, please
try to read this book. If you need excerpts from this book, I can send you.

After reading his description of the contemporary thinking at the frontiers of Physics,
I could not help feeling that Science is converging towards the world view of the Vedas.

You may also want to take a look at another book titled:
" The Tao of Physics: An Exploration of the Parallels Between Modern Physics and Eastern Mysticism" by Fritjof Capra.
 
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... I can't think of taking someone outside the caste to be my life partner. It has nothing to do with pride or prejudice. I will lose my identify and harmony with my own family.

..The culture slowly dissolves and gradually disappear.


Also my father has another valid point. Disintegration is epidemic. If one family member chooses intercaste marriage and when the rest of the family accepts it, the younger generation will assume that is right. This tradition and heritage that we talk about survive on the perception of value by its lineage. And intercaste marriage sets the wrong trend.

There are few religions that encompasses as diverse a philosophy as Hinduism. It is as liberal it gets. Only if we could take the effort in understanding it better.

E,

to put it mildly, i am surprised an ic/ir marriage would invoke such strong feelings. but then that is the way it is, and so be it. i can live with that. i guess.

incidentally, in the popular TV show, neeya naana, a few weeks ago, the prime reason, given by the youngsters, as to why they abandoned their outofcaste love, (and regretted it later almost 100% but that is another story) is the ostracization or loss of love, from family. infact, a few years ago, when, in this very forum (you can perhaps look it up in the archives if you be so inclined) the defining point by one set of group, to discourage ic marriage, was, as a community, to exercise 101% ostracism. ie do not give the person, whether it be son, daughter, niece, nephew, neighbour - the comfort benefit succour of the community. the fear generated by this alone, should be a factor to preserve caste, and not look beyond the fence.

wonder how that would work in real life. i guess you have not fallen in love. i guess, one good way to wish you illwill would be 'may you fall in love with anyone of another caste but your own' :) just kidding sir. even our own esteemed moderator here has admitted here, to be the victim of cupid's arrows, which came in the form of a jewish girl. many of our honourable members, have their sons married to other nationals. and appear to be comfortable enough to support them openly here. one can never predict one's future, and what i have found, as life experience is, that those who are unbendable, break, when 'calamity' happens. we need to keep the back door open. hypocritical as it may sound.

also, 'culture disappearing and disintegration happening'??? - sir we are evolving all the time. nothing is constant, but change. the 'disentegration' of one, is the birth of another, a child, stronger newer with all the energy of the newborn. even the snake, when it is tired of it, sheds its skin. why cannot we, constantly reinvent ourselves, in harmony with the changing world? my take. that is all.

... and finally, i agree that 'There are few religions that encompasses as diverse a philosophy as Hinduism. It is as liberal it gets. Only if we could take the effort in understanding it better.'.. sir.. are you not contradicting yourself. if you wish to be a true hindu, be liberal, be open, why then, strangle yourself into the narrow confines of your concept of 'purity' of the brahmin caste? to please the narrow mindedness of your kith and kin? are you not strong and confident in yourself, to stand up for your values? for your woman, who may not be of your caste, but one who is of your love? i cannot answer the queries, but based on your note, i ask.

i will leave it to you to introspect, for whatever answer you come up with, it is only you and your conscience that you need to answer. not today. (thats easy). but those long nights over the coming years, when there will be lots of occassions to look at yourself in the mirror, and query, 'did i do the right thing?'. - just like what the Nike shoe ads asks.

haveagoodday.
 
E,

to put it mildly, i am surprised an ic/ir marriage would invoke such strong feelings. but then that is the way it is, and so be it. i can live with that. i guess.


Dear Kunjs,

Actually most of us are comfortable with what we grew up in.

I myself would have never considered an inter religious marriage.
Inter caste is fine for me as long the guy is a Hindu.

Kunjs falling in love doesnt really cloud the intellect as much as we think it does.

In college before many of us Hindu girls have refused dates with any Non Hindu(even if he looked like Greek God) purely for the reason that we didnt want complications later and face loss of our freedom in case we fall in love and marriage takes place.

I always feel that Hinduism confers the most important Freedom in life and thats Freedom of Thought.

Even if Polyandry was legal..I would still want all my husbands to be Hindus!!!LOL
 
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Dear Sri Kunjuppu Ji,

Yes, I did fall for Manmathan's arrows! Why did it happen? To this day, I do not know for sure.

I committed to an arranged marriage, in fact, my mom was matching horoscopes when I met my wife. I had 'dated' in the US enough by that time to know that I am a conservative Tamil Brahmin guy who will have hard time adjusting to a girl from pure American background.

Then I met my wife. Not only she looked like an Indian girl in looks, she also was attracted to our culture. We agreed on values and intellectually and emotionally we matched very well. Perhaps because of all this, I fell headlong in to it.

I must say, while my family was at first against the marriage, over time they came to really love her, including my mother. But this is a old story.

However, at that time, while I went ahead with the marriage, because, as they say, we seemed to be 'made for each other', I would not have gone ahead if I thought that we were matched perhaps 90%. It would not have been worth to hurt my family's feelings.

Like religion, to me, choosing a partner is an intensely personal affair. We all bring various criteria to it, and we have every liberty to do so, including the views of the elders in the family. I do not believe in a ideologically based marriage, where one compulsively goes for a bride from, say a NB household.

My contention is that over time our culture in terms of choosing a bride from other communities will happen out of need, as we are already seeing the paucity of girls for our boys within the community.

We can all blame our forefathers for all the ills of the society, but this is what happens when we apply today's standards of humanism to yester years. Put yourself in the shoes of a poor brahmin, who could not feed his family because of the British and had to adapt. Imagine the pain. He stood as the first one in his lineage to break his Dharma!

Some in this Forum have suggested in the past that the community should pay a price for all the past ills of the society, based on today's microscope. I do not agree with this view, as you all know.

Perhaps if we had walked in the same shoes of our forefathers, we would understand and empathize. We should go on the premise that they were also a tiny part of that society, influential though might have been a few of their brethren with the powers then, overall they were poor by design and tried to advance the society.

By the way, I do not think that humanism stems out of studying science.

Regards,
KRS
 
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Dear Sri Kubjuppu Ji,

I am continuing from my previous posting, because I feel that it is unfinished.

'Humanism' to me means 'humanism' TODAY, towards embracing all cultures and all peoples.

I do not consider it humanism when we put down the actions of any people from history. Because it punishes today's generation and divides folks in to two opposing camps. This never solves the problem.

The issue with racism today in the USA is not about White Supremacy. It is about ignorance among ALL races. Yes, including our own. But those who feel this way are the losers. They have not adapted and so rightfully belong to the 'dust heap of history' as you often say.

Same with our culture. There is a new India. And those of us who cling to the past in terms of putting down others in terms of caste should suffer, based on their actions alone. But I will forever defend the rights of anyone to defend their culture if it is not counter to the current laws.

This is why I did not agree with the likes of Professor Nara Ji.

It is no one else's business as to how I live my life as long as it does not violate my country's laws.

Regards,
KRS
 
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Dear Renuka:

There is a book called "The Fabric of the Cosmos", written by Brian Greene.
It deals with space, time and the texture of reality. If you have time, please
try to read this book. If you need excerpts from this book, I can send you.

Is this offer of excerpts from the book open only to Renuka. If not, I would like to have the same. I did see two of the TV shows on Discovery of Science and I found it very interesting.

Regards,
 
Dear Sri Kubjuppu Ji,

I am continuing from my previous posting, because I feel that it is unfinished.

'Humanism' to me means 'humanism' TODAY, towards embracing all cultures and all peoples.

I do not consider it humanism when we put down the actions of any people from history. Because it punishes today's generation and divides folks in to two opposing camps. This never solves the problem.

The issue with racism today in the USA is not about White Supremacy. It is about ignorance among ALL races. Yes, including our own. But those who feel this way are the losers. They have not adapted and so rightfully belong to the 'dust heap of history' as you often say.

Same with our culture. There is a new India. And those of us who cling to the past in terms of putting down others in terms of caste should suffer, based on their actions alone. But I will forever defend the rights of anyone to defend their culture if it is not counter to the current laws.

This is why I did not agree with the likes of Professor Nara Ji.

It is no one else's business as to how I live my life as long as it does not violate my country's laws.

Regards,
KRS

This is brilliant piece, I fully agree with your views. I share the similar views. Blame the present for actions of others in the past gets us nowhere.
 
Dear Kunjs,

Actually most of us are comfortable with what we grew up in.

I myself would have never considered an inter religious marriage.
Inter caste is fine for me as long the guy is a Hindu.

Kunjs falling in love doesnt really cloud the intellect as much as we think it does.

In college before many of us Hindu girls have refused dates with any Non Hindu(even if he looked like Greek God) purely for the reason that we didnt want complications later and face loss of our freedom in case we fall in love and marriage takes place.

I always feel that Hinduism confers the most important Freedom in life and thats Freedom of Thought.

Even if Polyandry was legal..I would still want all my husbands to be Hindus!!!LOL

dear renus,

my nieces in chennai too, confessed that they had this self imposed filter ie only tambram guys. for some it was parental authority, coupled with fear of disinheritance (pots of money the old men had).

for others, it was just the plain confidence of their good looks and carriage, and convinced that they will get the best of the pick (they did!).

so, indeed, the filter to marry only from certain groups, or shun others, works, if it is self driven.

if it is thrust upon from the parents, i have found, it is almost certain to fail. i know of several families in toronto, where the parents were the loudest and harshest critics of ic/ir marriages. along with that went that boast, 'my children will never do that'. guess what? their children did, and overnight, all of these, became best of the humanists, in the modern sense of the word.

but the memory and hurt of those hateful words, remains, still. i always feel, that one should never say 'never'. we dont know what tomorrow will bring. always leave the backdoor open, i say!

best wishes, as always.
 
dear krs,

re your posts #12, #13,

thank you for not minding my reference to your private life. i felt it was only appropriate, considering the context, and also due to your prominent position in this forum.

re reference to nara: sir i am but a pygmy in intellect compared to nara, and would not dream even of whispering a word on his behalf. just too bad that he is not here to defend himself. and let it be at that.

i see your point re humanity, and its relevance if measured from current values. also, your view, of the futility re looking at the past through the today's glasses. i am not so sure about that, though for a minute, you had me convinced :)

on one hand, you, and me included here, have the feeling for the poor brahmin, who shunned his tradition for the first time, to the british. not exactly sure, if he was forced, except i think, he saw, service for the raj, a sure safe steady method, out of poverty and
boredom. after all, i have experienced, i hope you agree, there is indeed an element of excitement in leaving the native place and discovering the wonderous world beyond.

today, in this forum, how much we feel; about the supposed loss of our heritage due to british influence. how much anger still moves us, at the very thought of muslim invasions, and the desecretion/destruction of our temples. it is but a fact, that everyone is blessed with a long racial memory, and inspite of immediate efforts to adjust the society through social engineering in whatever form it may be done, the wrongs or perceived wrongs of the eons past, are not forgotten, and in this days of instant communication, finds instant rapports from unexpected corners of the world. this is reality, as i see it.

and then there were others, other than brahmins of those days. a group called kallars, their menfolk were asked to register regularly, and as a preventive measure, to report regularly to the police station, as to their whereabouts. a kallar's blog today seethes with anger at this insult to his ancestors. i may not understand it, but i do hear it, because it is there in the cyberworld, and i chose to read it.

which comes to the term ignorance. and the term racism. 'racism is due ignorance' you say, but is this not wilful. in this day and age, in the usa, or considerable part of the world, there is no excuse, not to attain knowledge of other groups, races, cultures. so ignorance, where it occurs, could be of the wilful kind, ie refusal to acknowledge the 'existence or legitimacy' of the other. which boils into hatred, suppressed hatred in many cases which erupts like what we saw in many a pogroms around the world of today.

being a man of prejudices, and one who believes that one is defined by prejudices, i do not have answers. only a wonderment, as to what level of prejudice is acceptable to any environment. it is but a difficult, to put ourselves in someone else's shoes - particularly when it will affect our interests or our long cherished values. it is this, more than anything else, in my opinion, as to why, many of us refuse point blank, to look at our ancestral past - and would tolerate no other view, than what we imagine it to be - ie 'pristine pure'.

of late i have been enjoying my cyberjourney through tamil blogs. i think, i am but fortunate, to live in this era, and get to converse with folks, with whom, had i lived in india, i would have had seldom opportunity to interact or hear/be heard. when one reads the blog of a chakkiliyan, the first graduate of his family, who after graduation, for lack of job opportunity in his graduated field, pulled rickshaws and fed wood for the burning dead (vettiyan), i cannot but confess that it opened my eyes to another world - a world of subsistence, where the very word 'subsistence' had different connotations and a new meaning, that what i had hitherto imagined. this particular blog is ultimately one of success, of victory over odds, but those odds would have been unsurmountable had it not been for education quotas. a simple rejection of affirmative action in the name of fairness of today, i think, would be hard to support, in the face, of the ancestral experience of a group, consigned to outside of the varnas, and whose very existence is not recognized in the hindu scriptures, as worth a mention. to me, this is where the concept of humanity, transcends time.

thank you.

ps. to some, the response to the above story, maybe, 'so what? he got it all because of quotas'. to others (like me) it is 'wow'. i would consider the defining answer there to be coming from a humanist.
 
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Dear Sri Kunjuppu Ji,

My response is in 'blue':
dear krs,

re your posts #12, #13,

thank you for not minding my reference to your private life. i felt it was only appropriate, considering the context, and also due to your prominent position in this forum.I don't mind. I have nothing to be shameful about.

re reference to nara: sir i am but a pygmy in intellect compared to nara, and would not dream even of whispering a word on his behalf. just too bad that he is not here to defend himself. and let it be at that.

i see your point re humanity, and its relevance if measured from current values. also, your view, of the futility re looking at the past through the today's glasses. i am not so sure about that, though for a minute, you had me convinced :)

on one hand, you, and me included here, have the feeling for the poor brahmin, who shunned his tradition for the first time, to the british. not exactly sure, if he was forced, except i think, he saw, service for the raj, a sure safe steady method, out of poverty and
boredom. after all, i have experienced, i hope you agree, there is indeed an element of excitement in leaving the native place and discovering the wonderous world beyond.
Yes, one can conjecture as you do. But you choose to look at it from the pov that our forefathers saw an opportunity to escape boredom and poverty. But I do not agree with this assessment, because if one looks at the world, majority do not voluntarily want to leave their place of birth and dread adventure. You and I are the exceptions, rather than the norm. Poverty was nothing new for our community, it was rather edicted. But there is a difference between just poverty of not having the riches, but a poverty of not being fed. I think the latter happened, so our forefathers did not have a choice. Even if what you say is true, then the resulting implication that they were leaving the brahminical life and therefore the caste system should be a positive thing.

today, in this forum, how much we feel; about the supposed loss of our heritage due to british influence. how much anger still moves us, at the very thought of muslim invasions, and the desecretion/destruction of our temples. it is but a fact, that everyone is blessed with a long racial memory, and inspite of immediate efforts to adjust the society through social engineering in whatever form it may be done, the wrongs or perceived wrongs of the eons past, are not forgotten, and in this days of instant communication, finds instant rapports from unexpected corners of the world. this is reality, as i see it.
Again, as I have said often, such a wanting for justice based on past events must apply to all. As I have said, this type of activity is the main deterrent to peace among communities. I know it is hard not to look back, but I totally reject the idea of correcting the perceived past injustices with today's peoples.

and then there were others, other than brahmins of those days. a group called kallars, their menfolk were asked to register regularly, and as a preventive measure, to report regularly to the police station, as to their whereabouts. a kallar's blog today seethes with anger at this insult to his ancestors. i may not understand it, but i do hear it, because it is there in the cyberworld, and i chose to read it.
Again, that happened. I would tell that person, the people that did those things to your forefathers are dead and gone. Focus on living equally in a democratic society, with secular laws. Fight for injustice in today's world, not from yesterday's history.

which comes to the term ignorance. and the term racism. 'racism is due ignorance' you say, but is this not wilful. in this day and age, in the usa, or considerable part of the world, there is no excuse, not to attain knowledge of other groups, races, cultures. so ignorance, where it occurs, could be of the wilful kind, ie refusal to acknowledge the 'existence or legitimacy' of the other. which boils into hatred, suppressed hatred in many cases which erupts like what we saw in many a pogroms around the world of today.
As long as humanity exists, parochialism and the amorphous 'hatered' for the other will exist, precisely because of ignorance. Stupidity, resulting from self imposed non education abounds in this world. Hopefully the modern communication will reduce this. By the way the 'progroms' are not just between people - they are also called killing of particular people in a society by the governments themselves, as happened in China, Cambodia and elsewhere.

being a man of prejudices, and one who believes that one is defined by prejudices, i do not have answers. only a wonderment, as to what level of prejudice is acceptable to any environment. it is but a difficult, to put ourselves in someone else's shoes - particularly when it will affect our interests or our long cherished values. it is this, more than anything else, in my opinion, as to why, many of us refuse point blank, to look at our ancestral past - and would tolerate no other view, than what we imagine it to be - ie 'pristine pure'
Why would you not want prejudices. I may be prejudiced against the meat eaters; I may be prejudiced against same sex marriages etc., etc., But discrimination against another valid group is what to be fought against. If a brahmin goes to a place where everyone eats and insists on removing all others who are not brahmins, then that is discrimination. Laws are there to protect against this. But if I am a brahmin and in my house I do not want a NB to see me eating then that is prejudice borne out of ignorance. But then that said person should be allowed to have those prejudices - because if the NB does not like it, he/she can leave the job. I really think that by berating them for their conduct, they become that more obstinate.

of late i have been enjoying my cyberjourney through tamil blogs. i think, i am but fortunate, to live in this era, and get to converse with folks, with whom, had i lived in india, i would have had seldom opportunity to interact or hear/be heard. when one reads the blog of a chakkiliyan, the first graduate of his family, who after graduation, for lack of job opportunity in his graduated field, pulled rickshaws and fed wood for the burning dead (vettiyan), i cannot but confess that it opened my eyes to another world - a world of subsistence, where the very word 'subsistence' had different connotations and a new meaning, that what i had hitherto imagined. this particular blog is ultimately one of success, of victory over odds, but those odds would have been unsurmountable had it not been for education quotas. a simple rejection of affirmative action in the name of fairness of today, i think, would be hard to support, in the face, of the ancestral experience of a group, consigned to outside of the varnas, and whose very existence is not recognized in the hindu scriptures, as worth a mention. to me, this is where the concept of humanity, transcends time.
I have never said that the disadvantaged should not be helped. Of course they ought to be. My problem is a quota system that is not at all effective as well as discriminatory. In a supposedly casteless country, this system is used to accentuate the caste differences and more importantly used for political purposes. For every person succeeding as you cite above, there are 100s who have failed, because of this system and that is the shame of India. I don't know how anyone can support this system, with most of the money spent is down the drain.

Empathy, feeling for others are not the sole property of the liberals and progressives alone. Any action based on emotions alone will not produce result. Social engineering is like Communism. One has to ask who decides what to engineer and how. To me society evolves on it's own, like the magic hand of Capitalism. Let it be.

thank you.

ps. to some, the response to the above story, maybe, 'so what? he got it all because of quotas'. to others (like me) it is 'wow'. i would consider the defining answer there to be coming from a humanist.
Regards,
KRS
 
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Dear Sri Kunjuppu Ji,

My response is in 'blue':
today, in this forum, how much we feel; about the supposed loss of our heritage due to british influence. how much anger still moves us, at the very thought of muslim invasions, and the desecretion/destruction of our temples. it is but a fact, that everyone is blessed with a long racial memory, and inspite of immediate efforts to adjust the society through social engineering in whatever form it may be done, the wrongs or perceived wrongs of the eons past, are not forgotten, and in this days of instant communication, finds instant rapports from unexpected corners of the world. this is reality, as i see it.
Again, as I have said often, such a wanting for justice based on past events must apply to all. As I have said, this type of activity is the main deterrent to peace among communities. I know it is hard not to look back, but I totally reject the idea of correcting the perceived past injustices with today's peoples.


Regards,
KRS

Isnt it (the quotes in bold) an easy guess as to why the author keeps ranting the same thing post after post?
 
Why there is resistance even to tell the truth about past events? To talk about corrective action or retribution is irrelevant if some are keen to ignore or hide the truth.

But all brahmins have to collectively apologise even though they are physically powerless to do any harm now or in the past. The demand is not only preposterous but absurdly foolish.
 
We find these days Scientists follow the principles of religious customs
and some of the religious leaders too have adequate explanations towards
scientific methods from the point of Vedic culture. May be only a few
who fall in between, rather strive to raise a voice on this. If you see our
history, this was discussed long long ago. Hindu scriptures are ancient
manuals containing scientific methods. We see, for e.g. Scientists going to temple
for a prayer to have a perfect launch of Satellite recently in India. What does
this mean? In NASA too, Scientists might have prayed their God for successful
mission, though it is not spelt out frankly. To conclude, the goal of Scientists
and Religious Leaders must be towards a good science/religion for the prosperity
of human welfare.

Our Puranaas long long ago have clearly mentioned that men will live on fish, milk,
goats and sheep, etc. Cows will extinct. We practically see these days cow
slaughtering exists.

Of late, we have started about Global Warming. It is about the rising of average
temperature of Earth's atmosphere and oceans and its projected movement. We
find world traditions are coming to a consensus that time is cyclical and we have
entered the last age i.e. Kaliyuga. At the end of Kaliyuga, it is interpreted that
water will envelope the entire earth. Now itself, we are finding, owing to Global
warning, ice on the mountains are melting on the faster rate. We read many things
in the media relating to science and religion. It is rather inter-twined and it will
be rather difficult to say science has no base in the religious histories.

Balasubramanian
Ambattur
 
... and finally, i agree that 'There are few religions that encompasses as diverse a philosophy as Hinduism. It is as liberal it gets. Only if we could take the effort in understanding it better.'.. sir.. are you not contradicting yourself. if you wish to be a true hindu, be liberal, be open, why then, strangle yourself into the narrow confines of your concept of 'purity' of the brahmin caste? to please the narrow mindedness of your kith and kin? are you not strong and confident in yourself, to stand up for your values? for your woman, who may not be of your caste, but one who is of your love? i cannot answer the queries, but based on your note, i ask.

It is indeed a fair question that you ask.

I never suggested 'purity of brahmins' in my posts, nevertheless I shall reiterate that, it has nothing to do with 'pride or prejudice'. It has everything to do with my upbringing, allegiance to my ancestry, tradition and most importantly identity. By identity I do not mean a public one, but a rather personal identity which we all cherish in our hearts. It doesn't really matter where you come from, what race or caste you were born in. You can be proud notwithstanding the caste, creed or colour you were born. You are just standing for yourself. (Did I sound a but too dramatic here?)

What I intend to say is that keeping an identity doesn't necessarily make me narrow minded. I have shared my room with a couple of christians, one of them, a prodigal son, would call me a 'bloody hindu', albeit jokingly. Then I have also shared homes with atheists, agnostics and gays. I accept them all wholeheartedly and more importantly, equally. I don't see narrowmindedness in myself or in them. They are all highly educated, successful and share a positive attitude to life. Even in multitude of circumstances, I have noticed that sometimes the philosophy that they project about life in general and ideas like atheism can be found in our religion (surprising?).

About love, those who haven't afflicted with are very rare sir, I wouldn't call myself a victim, I would call myself privileged to have experienced it. (Should you doubt the genuineness of it, please don't, as I have been to both hell and heaven because of it) And if I choose to marry someone outside my own caste (supposedly) my parents would eventually accept it despite their prejudice. It is not because they need me (I mean financially), but rather because I am one of their sons. They don't have a purpose in putting me in misery by rejecting, do they? But are they wrong to be in despair if I break all their hope and act against their will and intentions to keep the very values and traditions that they took the effort in instilling on me.

May I ask, whether be it out of privilege or right or just ancestry, what other caste or religion owes respect and significance to vedas and its philosophy and tradition as we do? Don't we have a duty to sustain preaching and protecting it? Hope you read about the Russians trying to ban Gita.

No matter how liberal one is, there is prejudice (virtual or real) in every soul. This is necessary to sustain those thoughts and beliefs that a person identifies with and holds prejudice for. It is only when this prejudice becomes threatening or detrimental to the some individual that it is undesirable.

I think I can be a devout brahmin who is completely okay with living in and interacting with a society that holds values different from that of mine as long as they are not detrimental to me. As a note I would like to add that I don't frequent community events, I am too shy to attend brahmin weddings. But I enjoy travelling and interacting with people from wide backgrounds, I have done so and will do for the rest of my life. I am quite hesitant to interpret the meanings of vedas, as I could be wrong, but then if you take it literally I think in Rudram (Namakam), we interpret Shiva in every form be it good or bad. As the majestic, the dwarf, the commander or army as well as the theifs, the creator as well as the destroyer.
 
I would like to add that, as Renuka mentioned, liberalism is to be first manifested in thoughts than actions. Isn't forsaking our ancestry a kind of prejudice in itself. That we are unable to accept liberal views and others without forsaking our own? Just a thought.
 
I feel that its always we Hindus who are advised to be Liberal etc but everyone else are allowed to be Non Liberal.

If a Hindu stands up for his/her religion he/she is termed a narrow minded fanatic but if a Non Hindu stands up for their religion they are termed true to their religion.

For me I dont mind being termed a narrow minded fanatic as long I stand up for what I feel is right.

Thats why I do not even celebrate New Year's day (1 st Jan)
Valentine's day, Mother's day cos its Non Hindu in origin.

I feel we have the right to progress with time and place but still maintain ourselves as not to dilute Sanathana Dharma.
 
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