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Same Gothram Marriage

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Hello,

I am deeply in love with a brahmin girl. However, she happens to be of the same gothram as me.

Her father is not ready to conduct the marriage because of this and he is very opposed to the method of having the girl's maternal uncle do the kanyadhaanam. There is also no question of the marriage occurring without the girl's family's consent because none of us want that. My family is ok with the marriage though

Is there any other way the marriage can be done? Specifically is there any other ritual (other than adoption by maternal uncle) to conduct a sagothram marriage?

Please respond with anything you might know. Both of us deeply love each other and cannot stand to be separated :(
 

kunjuppu

Well-known member
firefox,

my suggestion (the same i would advise my kids if similar situation developed) is for you/your beloved to go to the nearest registrar and get married.

then provide the information to your families.

let it be their problem of your beloved's father to figure out how he wants to handle it.

he can either
- accept the marriage as it stands and announce it to the world or
- come up with a solution (ie conduct a vedic marriage) to his satisfaction and maintain gauravam or
- reject the whole concept and throw you guys out (which he probably plans to do anyway. atleast cherish the support you have from your family)

life is short.

do not waste your precious youth waiting for these old fogies to come around on their own accord. once they have the ultimatum, the smart ones turn around pretty damn quickly.

they are all inculcated with ignorance and false pride.

God bless you and your beloved. :)

ps.. we have a couple of threads here in the past with the same topic. you might find other solutions there. ..
 
Thank you for your reply... However, that is out of the question... the girl would never agree to something like this because she is too deeply attached to her parents... at the same time, she loves me a lot... the situation is very delicate :(

Are there any rituals / pariharams or anything that exist for sagothra marriages (apart from adoption by maternal uncle)? My question is still open...
 

happyhindu

Well-known member
Dear firefox,

I do not know about rituals.

But i know a few things about gotras.

They were intended to be division of the only asset that people had in ancient times - cows.

The earliest gotras were supposedly matrilineal, perhaps to make the women feel financially safe and secure.

Some say, the concept of gotras originated in the deccan. The old gotras are really named after cow pens. Example - there are old gotras that end in 'pala' means 'protector' (as in Go-Pala - cow protector Gopala).

Rishi gotras some say came about because they cud not have followed the norm that was being followed during that time - which is the matrilineal division of cows. The women might not have been interested in wealth. So the men began inheriting the cows.

Possibly slowly, the students of the rishis might have also inherited extra cows gotten in daanams and taken on the gotra names; giving rise to the guru-sishya parampara. Social development over time must have resulted in the state of scriptural adherence as we see it today.

The 7 rishis of whose gotras are known today, must have been very famous with biggest schools or famous due to their intellectual / spiritual prowess in their time. We do not know if there were smaller schools and lesser known rishi gotras, and that possibility always remains.

Please read the Gautama dharma sutra, supposed to be the oldest dharmasutra, and it will give you an idea of how people climed up and down the caste ladder: http://www.hinduwebsite.com/sacredscripts/hinduism/dharma/dharma_index.asp

If there was change in caste even at that time, then where does gotra figure. And after a good 1000+ years, in what way can genetics affect the progeny, if one marries from the same gothra. At the same time, am sure there must reasons why elders adhere to the gotra system, and i can in no way undermine it just because i understand little about it in the present time. But the scriptures have certainly made provisions by creating rituals wherein a person adopts another gotra. PLease do follow them and marry your love.

If you miss the chance based on parental expectations, and marry someone else, then the hurt both of you will feel cud prick you inside for a lifetime. Esp, when both of you are brahmins, your parents shd in fact feel delighted about that fact. Do explain to your parents and approch her parents on your own with a sincere heart and speak to her father on a one to one basis. Let him know that your love is sincere. Surely they will come around.
 
Thank you for your advice, happy hindu...

I have tried speaking to her father and explaining things, but unfortunately they are very afraid of society's norms and regulations, especially because she has a younger sister who has to be married off later...

I would like to know if anyone has any information regarding the rituals you talked about, where gotra can be changed etc.

Praying to God everyday that this should work out...
 

happyhindu

Well-known member
Firefox-ji,

i know there is a ritual in which a person can be given a gotra. but i do not know the details of it. it is better you consult some priests for this personally and find out. or hopefully someone here can provide you the details.

Good luck and God bless.
 

pannvalan

Well-known member
Marriages in sagotram

Please go through the discussions under the same topic sometime in the past. As I had emphasized then, 'gotras' at best can serve the purpose of knowing one's lineage. But here the problem is - can we say with 100% certainty who were our ancestors, say some 5 generations back? Then how can one say with same degree of certainty about rishis, whom we call our ancestors, who lived some 2000 or 3000 years ago?

Then what sanctity does this word 'gotra' could have? It is a common scientific knowledge that marriage between close, blood relatives could lead to congenital disorders of the offsprings of such couples. But, again it has been proved beyond reasonable doubt that genetic mutation occurs generation after generation and after 3 generations, this process is almost complete.

That is why the I.Q. levels of people of the present generation and their ancestors 3 or more generations ago do not have any correlation. Anything can happen - either advacement or deterioration.

What I want to say here is 'gothras' provide some sort of socio-cultural
identity to the people who follow them. I have myself heard that many
non-brahmins still profess their allegiance to 'Siva Gothra'. Then, is it correct to say that all came from single source - Lord Siva Himself?

Marriage of minds is the most important one. But, one word of caution.
Please do not antogonise your elders, only to get married. Try to talk to
somebody, preferably a person of high social stature and win his heart and
then utilize him to convince your elders about what you are going to do.
 
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Gothram can not be used to avert genetic disorders, atleast the way they are used currently. eg. son born to a man in a particular gothram can still marry someone who belongs to his mother's gothram-this does not prevent an autosomal recessive gene or an x linked gene acquired from his mother being transmitted to his offspring in double dose, if he marries a woman who carries similar abnormal genes who belong to his mother's gothram. In short, avoiding sagothram does not have an absolute scientific sanction.
 
A

astrocrave

Guest
I have just joined the site recently. this is clearly an emotional issue and no matter whatever logical explanations are given here by fellow members, it would appear illogical given the emotional overhang.

the only practical solution is time. Accordingly without comprising on the respect for elders, you should start behaving as the unofficial athimber and first hunt a bridegroom for your sister in law. This will also give you ample time to demonstrate your qualities to your future father in law and as they say time is the best healer. In any case "othai kaal nine kathal kalyanam pannikanamna kunjom pariharam panni dhan aanam"

This would also require your would be spouse to be respectful but firm. Please do not try to convince him through rituals for again, he is driven by postulates (which cannot be explained) and emotions. Only actions break down emotions. The sheer resolve of your spouse should move the parent.
 
I have joined this site recently. This topic is very sensitive and touchy.
Gothrams are strictly & religiously transmitted atleast in brahmin community. No doubt about it. Hence there is no possibility of missing link in gothram route. Even it is 2000 to 3000 years. Same way there could be genuine reasons other than what we have been discussing. There are many strong and sensible scholars who donot have access to this site, might put in right and convincing answers. either way.
Is gothram issue prevalant in other relgions??
 

silverfox

Active member
Firefox:
Well, it seems you are at a checkmate!! Could you tell your future-in-law that the Gothras have been so much diluted that the question of in-breeding is completely out of the question?
I dont know why people are so much hung up on what the society is going to say! Is the society coming up with the money to conduct the wedding? Besides, why should anyone know about your gothra? Don't have to divulge it or change your gothram and make a new 'jathakam' to show to the so-called 'society'.
This is ridiculous! May be you better arrange for the younger sister's wedding first! But wait! this 'society' will object to it because the older sister is not married!
I don't know, man! You are in catch-22!
I will say 'just elope and get married'; Mr. in-law might be mad for a few months but everything will be back to normacy.
If you are in Chennai and if you would like me to talk to your future in-law, I would be very happy to do it.



Thank you for your advice, happy hindu...

I have tried speaking to her father and explaining things, but unfortunately they are very afraid of society's norms and regulations, especially because she has a younger sister who has to be married off later...

I would like to know if anyone has any information regarding the rituals you talked about, where gotra can be changed etc.

Praying to God everyday that this should work out...
 

Seshadri Subramaniam

Well-known member
The gothram does not matter, as it has been pointed elsewhere in this thread that it is too diluted... (there are cases of sagothram marriages in my family itself, and no one seems unduly bothered about it), but the important factor is the parents' will...

It is the dharma of every individual to give respect to their parents' wishes... however, complex situations such as these may arise where both the parties have opposing opinions and neither of them are wrong! In such cases whatever one decides is right...!!

Since you are confused, a better way to arive at a solution is to let the girl decide what she wants to do...
and then make it happen.

Customs and traditions have deep roots in the psyche; so a ritual that provides an alternative may or may not embolden the girl's father... (who knows, he may then question the credibility of the ritual itself)

So, my advice would be to leave the search for a "ritual" and act otherwise...

The decision is yours...

To the father of the girl:

Gothram was important in olden days as brahmins lived together in agraharams and marriage alliances used to be between families of the same village... over passage of time, it broadened its scope and now the "families" are so scattered that members of the same gothram can hardly be called family.

The society does not care about gothram and neither is its view important here. Today, it is difficult to find a brahmin who perform "gayathri" and adheres to the life of a brahmin; when so much has been sacrificed to adjust to the modern life, it is quite absurd to be adamant about the gothram (am assuming that he is ok with other aspects but for the gothram).

Today, there are boys and girls who source relationships outside the brahmin circle (there is a separate thread on this subject). In such disturbing times, I think gothram is the least matter to be concerned about...

To allay the father's fears, he may obtain an elder's view on this subject from within his family or from somebody he trusts (am just hoping that the elder does not share the father's view on gothram!!!).

Regards,
Seshadri
 
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happyhindu

Well-known member
I loved silverfoxji's advice: elope and marry...sounds fun :D

Nice post Sesh-ji, Just this part may not go ok: Since you are confused, a better way to arive at a solution is to let the girl decide what she wants to do...

Not sure if the female of our species are so decisive creatures...some at the end of the day might wanna give more importance to the parent's wishes.

For females, have noticed that they can get just too conscious of what their parents expect of them. Like sometimes if they feel that have not been good as a daughter in other things, or if they cannot find one themselves, or for nothing if they just wanna be a good daughter (a strange social sentiment that used to be common in my time), life-decisions such as a marriage could end up being left to the parents just to make them happy....we certainly do not want our friend firefox's girl to be the parent-pleasing type in this matter :nod:


Anyways, that aside...guess you have heard of this: A son is a son until he gets his wife, a daughter is a daughter all her life. Dunno how far its true, cannot generalize so easily just like that, but it is just my observation (so far) that daughters more often end up being more concerned for parents than sons. What do you think abt this?
 

Seshadri Subramaniam

Well-known member
Nice post Sesh-ji, Just this part may not go ok: Since you are confused, a better way to arive at a solution is to let the girl decide what she wants to do...

Not sure if the female of our species are so decisive creatures...some at the end of the day might wanna give more importance to the parent's wishes.


The basic fallacy is your presumption in thinking that it is an adverse decision for the girl to go with her parents’ decision. The majority seem to think that a boy-girl relationship is of the highest order when it comes to matters of love. Let me tell you – there is no greater love than the love of the mother and there is no greater joy than the pride of a father.

For females, have noticed that they can get just too conscious of what their parents expect of them. Like sometimes if they feel that have not been good as a daughter in other things, or if they cannot find one themselves, or for nothing if they just wanna be a good daughter (a strange social sentiment that used to be common in my time), life-decisions such as a marriage could end up being left to the parents just to make them happy....we certainly do not want our friend firefox's girl to be the parent-pleasing type in this matter

Females are more decisive than men; it is just that their mind is layered with so many concerns that they often resign to a particular line of thought. More importantly, in a male dominated society of thought, where does a woman get the freedom to express herself? Alas, we have lost our glorious heritage of female independence…

I would want every girl to be herself – if firefox’s girl intends to abide by her parents’ decision, then fine… it is her decision. We should not be the persons who term it right or wrong. Inadvertently, by saying that her decision to please her parents’ wish is wrong, you are giving a lead here that may influence the mind of the other. If a girl decides to choose, then it must be without anybody saying anything about right or wrong. Do not the parents earn the right to see their daughter married as they please? People have to make tough choices, but it is not an unusual happening!!!


I stop my thoughts here, as it would be too much of a personal interference to firefox…

Anyways, that aside...guess you have heard of this: A son is a son until he gets his wife, a daughter is a daughter all her life. Dunno how far its true, cannot generalize so easily just like that, but it is just my observation (so far) that daughters more often end up being more concerned for parents than sons. What do you think abt this?

As far as matters of the mind are concerned, there is no difference between a boy and a girl; everything is derived – from the parents, from society and the rest by learning and perception.

Distance always keeps fond memories – a daughter is always fond of her parents as she holds nostalgic memories of her childhood days. NRIs seem more patriotic than the Indians in India! Of course, there are exceptions as in every case. That may be one reason why daughters seem a bit higher in affection than sons.

I cannot speak for the whole mass, but as a matter of fact, our society has degenerated to such an extent that emotions and family ties are fast disappearing.




I infer from some other posts that you are a female - pls correct me if am wrong. If yes, am just surprised to hear you say that females are indecisive (to which I strongly disagree). If you are a male.. oops, then ignore this para... :violin:
 
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happyhindu

Well-known member
Nope Shesh-ji, never said it wud be an adverse thing for the girl to go with her parents’ decision. Who knows, it might be good; since one never knows fate.

The point is women tend to succumb to parental expectations and social pressure more easily than men. Thence, decisions made out of such circumstances cud lead them to a situation where they make their so-called 'own' decisions (which in fact cud be a compromise).

If the girl on her own feels she can be just as happy with someone else, well then, no one has any right to say anything in that matter..but what if she ends up cheating on herself...

Yep, am a female and perhaps that is why i say females might come across as rather indecisive in these love matters (guess i shd hv added the context of indecisivesness in the previous post). Actually, it seems to me that females are very decisive when it comes to opinions, shopping, everything....save for that hesitation in matters of the heart :decision: ???
 
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S

s007bala

Guest
Technically Saha-Gothram is prohibhited.But then,in South Indian families,the practice of marrying 'Mama' and 'Atthai Ponnu or Payyan' is still prevalent.So,i guess safely marry within gothras too,is a minority accepted norm.

sb
 

Seshadri Subramaniam

Well-known member
Technically Saha-Gothram is prohibhited.But then,in South Indian families,the practice of marrying 'Mama' and 'Atthai Ponnu or Payyan' is still prevalent.So,i guess safely marry within gothras too,is a minority accepted norm.

sb
Under normal circumstances, ie., assuming that the mother and father are from different gothrams, the mama would be in a different gothram... so it is not a sagothram lock...

In the case of athai too, she takes on the gothram of her husband who would be a different gothram to her parental line... and hence her children would not also be in the same gothram...

So your examples do not support sagothram marriage... in case you intended it to be so...
 
S

s007bala

Guest
S S

the very idea of cousins or marrying of nieces,nephews..etc ie within family,is a abhorent thing for me.Its just me.What other people practice as per tradition,sampradayams..etc are more than welcome to continue this...for me its yaarghhhhhhhhhhs...

Sagothram is medically not advicable too.But then in love people do ,all kinds of stuff...our rishis were all very wise social scienticts...

sb

P.S. Women after marriage taking husbands gothram,does not mean she loses the genes of her parents!
 
hi
i'm siva.... have you got the solution... i'm also facing the same problem..
while i was searching a solution for this, i saw your msg and registered just now..
i was very confused but strong in mind that i must marry her..
searching for the solution....
 
S

s007bala

Guest
re

hi
i'm siva.... have you got the solution... i'm also facing the same problem..
while i was searching a solution for this, i saw your msg and registered just now..
i was very confused but strong in mind that i must marry her..
searching for the solution....
siva

If possible have the blessings of the elders of both family.Make sure the girl you love,loves you and above all,you yourself,will never ditch her,when the going gets tough.You must have a steely resolve to face life,with absolute confidence.I say,you marry her.If no one is with you,you have her and she has you,and as god as witness with the pancha bhoothas,go ahead and marry.Blessings of lovers with you.

sb:couch2:
 
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