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Religious conversion

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sarang said:
1. Daily aradana is expected of all including those other than brahmins. All religious households do puja, arti and offering of food.
2. Saligrama puja is relatively easier than vigraha puja.
3. Saligramam is very sacred to vaishnavites and passed on to children for continuity. Son in laws too are given at the time of marriage.
4. Many maharashtrians too pass on ganesh vigraha to children to maintain continuity of puja with the same vigraha.
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Saligrama Puja by Vaishanavites proves that Vaishnavism takes a leaf out of Saivisim, since Saivism does not encourage Idol worship. While all Vaishnavite temples advocate only Idol worship with big Statues like Jains, both for Vishnu and God Men Rama, Krishna, Saligrama Puja is nothing but effect of Saivism.
 
You are welcome to cling to your pet theories. Ignorance is always bliss.

CHANDRU1849 said:
Saligrama Puja by Vaishanavites proves that Vaishnavism takes a leaf out of Saivisim, since Saivism does not encourage Idol worship. While all Vaishnavite temples advocate only Idol worship with big Statues like Jains, both for Vishnu and God Men Rama, Krishna, Saligrama Puja is nothing but effect of Saivism.
Click to expand...
 
CHANDRU1849 said:
Saligrama Puja by Vaishanavites proves that Vaishnavism takes a leaf out of Saivisim, since Saivism does not encourage Idol worship. While all Vaishnavite temples advocate only Idol worship with big Statues like Jains, both for Vishnu and God Men Rama, Krishna, Saligrama Puja is nothing but effect of Saivism.
Click to expand...
how about chidambaram temple nataraja. -is it not an idol
 
vgane said:
Watch out for the Christians as Brahmins propaganda in this form...It is subtle attempt at conversion...Why should the Praveen allow such stuff in our site

Christians As Brahmins New Method Of Religious Conversion | Ramani's blog
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Ilayaraja and his cohorts even tried to portray Tiruvasagam as a Christian scripture. Fact is, the king of that era used to cut off the heads of all non- Hindus (chiefly Jains) and present it in their hands.

So why should we sweat about the small stuff? If you have sufficient will power, you'll remain a Hindu or Brahmin or whatever.
 
Well there seems to be Ms. K* in this forum who claims to be both an Iyengar and a Christian. Not too subtly if I may add.
 
Religious conversion.

Paravar or Parathavar (பரதவர்) were one of the ancient seafaring warriors of Pandya kingdom known as Bharatakula Kshatriars (பரதகுல சத்ரியர்).

Paravars were the first whole community in India to convert to Christianity in the mid 16th century.

The mass conversion of Paravars to Christianity took place during the period 1535-1538. The motive for this mass conversion was not entirely spiritual or religious, but a necessity for their survival at that period. Paravars were a privileged community of fisherman spread over the entire coast line of southern peninsula, specialised in pearl fishery. When the Arab fishermen came and took over the pearl fishery at the instance of local Hindu rulers, this community was exposed to the oppression of Muslim fishermen and Hindu rulers. To escape from the persecution Paravars could not find any solution except seeking the protection of the Portuguese. They sought the help of a local Malabari Christian covert named Joao da Cruz, who advised them to become Christians and seek the help of Portuguese, who would afford them naval support at sea and adequate protection to continue their trade.

Paravars found no other way except to accept his advise for their survival. Joao da Cruz did the liaison with the Portuguese and got their consent for the proposal. First twenty of their community leaders known as "Pattangattiyars" (பட்டங்கட்டியர்) were taken by Joao da Cruz to Cochin and got them baptized. In response the Portuguese sent their Naval squadron to Cape Comerin and released the Paravars from Muslim captivity. Interestingly the "Pattangattiyars" who were thus baptized took on the family name "da Cruz" because of Joao da Cruz, who helped them at the time of need. Since then it was a custom for the leaders of the community to be called as "da Cruz".

The Paravars apart from getting converted also had to pay 60,000 fanams to Portuguese as protection money. This was further used to induce more conversions. Miguel Vaz the Portuguese Vicar General visited the Paravars accompanied by four priests and administered baptism to about twenty thousand people. In a few years, the number rose to eighty thousand men, women, and children and the Christianity spread among these people,who were settled on the Malabar and Coramandel coast. The Paravars had the protection of the Portuguese fleet to follow their profession undisturbed.

It is admitted on all ccounts, that one of the greatest and most successful group conversion movements in India was that of the Paravars in the 16th century.

Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.
 
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CHANDRU1849 said:
Vaishnavism cannot survive without accepting and adopting Saivite principles.
Click to expand...


Chandru ji,

Why are you so anti Vaishanavaism?? At the same time you call upon all Brahmins to unite as in Arise Awake but at the same time you seem to have some dislike for Vaishnavaism. Why?? Why??

ஏன்?? ஏன்??
 
Brahmanyan said:
Paravar or Parathavar (பரதவர்) were one of the ancient seafaring warriors of Pandya kingdom known as Bharatakula Kshatriars (பரதகுல சத்ரியர்).

Paravars were the first whole community in India to convert to Christianity in the mid 16th century.

The mass conversion of Paravars to Christianity took place during the period 1535-1538. The motive for this mass conversion was not entirely spiritual or religious, but a necessity for their survival at that period. Paravars were a privileged community of fisherman spread over the entire coast line of southern peninsula, specialised in pearl fishery. When the Arab fishermen came and took over the pearl fishery at the instance of local Hindu rulers, this community was exposed to the oppression of Muslim fishermen and Hindu rulers. To escape from the persecution Paravars could not find any solution except seeking the protection of the Portuguese. They sought the help of a local Malabari Christian covert named Joao da Cruz, who advised them to become Christians and seek the help of Portuguese, who would afford them naval support at sea and adequate protection to continue their trade.

Paravars found no other way except to accept his advise for their survival. Joao da Cruz did the liaison with the Portuguese and got their consent for the proposal. First twenty of their community leaders known as "Pattangattiyars" (பட்டங்கட்டியர்) were taken by Joao da Cruz to Cochin and got them baptized. In response the Portuguese sent their Naval squadron to Cape Comerin and released the Paravars from Muslim captivity. Interestingly the "Pattangattiyars" who were thus baptized took on the family name "da Cruz" because of Joao da Cruz, who helped them at the time of need. Since then it was a custom for the leaders of the community to be called as "da Cruz".

The Paravars apart from getting converted also had to pay 60,000 fanams to Portuguese as protection money. This was further used to induce more conversions. Miguel Vaz the Portuguese Vicar General visited the Paravars accompanied by four priests and administered baptism to about twenty thousand people. In a few years, the number rose to eighty thousand men, women, and children and the Christianity spread among these people,who were settled on the Malabar and Coramandel coast. The Paravars had the protection of the Portuguese fleet to follow their profession undisturbed.

It is admitted on all ccounts, that one of the greatest and most successful group conversion movements in India was that of the Paravars in the 16th century.

Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.
Click to expand...
Great information.
 
Brahmanyan said:
Paravar or Parathavar (பரதவர்) were one of the ancient seafaring warriors of Pandya kingdom known as Bharatakula Kshatriars (பரதகுல சத்ரியர்).

Paravars were the first whole community in India to convert to Christianity in the mid 16th century.

The mass conversion of Paravars to Christianity took place during the period 1535-1538. The motive for this mass conversion was not entirely spiritual or religious, but a necessity for their survival at that period. Paravars were a privileged community of fisherman spread over the entire coast line of southern peninsula, specialised in pearl fishery. When the Arab fishermen came and took over the pearl fishery at the instance of local Hindu rulers, this community was exposed to the oppression of Muslim fishermen and Hindu rulers. To escape from the persecution Paravars could not find any solution except seeking the protection of the Portuguese. They sought the help of a local Malabari Christian covert named Joao da Cruz, who advised them to become Christians and seek the help of Portuguese, who would afford them naval support at sea and adequate protection to continue their trade.

Paravars found no other way except to accept his advise for their survival. Joao da Cruz did the liaison with the Portuguese and got their consent for the proposal. First twenty of their community leaders known as "Pattangattiyars" (பட்டங்கட்டியர்) were taken by Joao da Cruz to Cochin and got them baptized. In response the Portuguese sent their Naval squadron to Cape Comerin and released the Paravars from Muslim captivity. Interestingly the "Pattangattiyars" who were thus baptized took on the family name "da Cruz" because of Joao da Cruz, who helped them at the time of need. Since then it was a custom for the leaders of the community to be called as "da Cruz".

The Paravars apart from getting converted also had to pay 60,000 fanams to Portuguese as protection money. This was further used to induce more conversions. Miguel Vaz the Portuguese Vicar General visited the Paravars accompanied by four priests and administered baptism to about twenty thousand people. In a few years, the number rose to eighty thousand men, women, and children and the Christianity spread among these people,who were settled on the Malabar and Coramandel coast. The Paravars had the protection of the Portuguese fleet to follow their profession undisturbed.

It is admitted on all ccounts, that one of the greatest and most successful group conversion movements in India was that of the Paravars in the 16th century.

Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.
Click to expand...

dear brahmanyan,

joe d cruz won the sahitya academy award for கொற்கை this year. he is a paradhavar and proud of his ancient community which built the ships, manned the navy of the pandyas and cholas in their sea faring days.

a couple of interesting facts about the paradhavars... though 100% catholic, for centuries, when their ships leave their ports and pass by thiruchendur, the sentiment, even to this day, is to break open a coconut with the quote, மச்சானுக்கு தேங்கா ஓடையடா. for one of murugan's wife was a parathi (the other korathi).. valli and devyanai.

when they ships pass the kanyakumari, the same sentiment to break open a coconut for the amman.

joe got married in vadapalani temple and his novels கொற்கை & ஆழி சூழ் உலகு chronicle the lives of the paradhavars.

here are two linkes to two interesting interviews by joe on youtube. one on History and our Identity and the other very relaxed Virundhinar Pakkam interview with Sun TV. A remarkable Tamil and author, and I am sure you will like him :)
 
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.. and if you like what i wrote about joe d cruz in prev post, you will enjoy his speech at st xavier's college palayamkottai a few months ago.. :)

[video=youtube;RrDmLUooWKU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrDmLUooWKU[/video]
 
Brahmanyan said:
Paravar or Parathavar (பரதவர்) were one of the ancient seafaring warriors of Pandya kingdom known as Bharatakula Kshatriars (பரதகுல சத்ரியர்).

Paravars were the first whole community in India to convert to Christianity in the mid 16th century.

The mass conversion of Paravars to Christianity took place during the period 1535-1538. The motive for this mass conversion was not entirely spiritual or religious, but a necessity for their survival at that period. Paravars were a privileged community of fisherman spread over the entire coast line of southern peninsula, specialised in pearl fishery. When the Arab fishermen came and took over the pearl fishery at the instance of local Hindu rulers, this community was exposed to the oppression of Muslim fishermen and Hindu rulers. To escape from the persecution Paravars could not find any solution except seeking the protection of the Portuguese. They sought the help of a local Malabari Christian covert named Joao da Cruz, who advised them to become Christians and seek the help of Portuguese, who would afford them naval support at sea and adequate protection to continue their trade.

Paravars found no other way except to accept his advise for their survival. Joao da Cruz did the liaison with the Portuguese and got their consent for the proposal. First twenty of their community leaders known as "Pattangattiyars" (பட்டங்கட்டியர்) were taken by Joao da Cruz to Cochin and got them baptized. In response the Portuguese sent their Naval squadron to Cape Comerin and released the Paravars from Muslim captivity. Interestingly the "Pattangattiyars" who were thus baptized took on the family name "da Cruz" because of Joao da Cruz, who helped them at the time of need. Since then it was a custom for the leaders of the community to be called as "da Cruz".

The Paravars apart from getting converted also had to pay 60,000 fanams to Portuguese as protection money. This was further used to induce more conversions. Miguel Vaz the Portuguese Vicar General visited the Paravars accompanied by four priests and administered baptism to about twenty thousand people. In a few years, the number rose to eighty thousand men, women, and children and the Christianity spread among these people,who were settled on the Malabar and Coramandel coast. The Paravars had the protection of the Portuguese fleet to follow their profession undisturbed.

It is admitted on all ccounts, that one of the greatest and most successful group conversion movements in India was that of the Paravars in the 16th century.

Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.
Click to expand...
Thank you brahmanyan ji a very infomative post
 
renuka said:
Chandru ji,

Why are you so anti Vaishanavaism?? At the same time you call upon all Brahmins to unite as in Arise Awake but at the same time you seem to have some dislike for Vaishnavaism. Why?? Why??

ஏன்?? ஏன்??
Click to expand...


I am a Hindu Brahmin and am not an anti-Vaishnavite. I mentioned about some practices of Vaishnavism, which has Saivite appeal.

Please don't assume on your own.
 
kunjuppu said:
dear brahmanyan,

joe d cruz won the sahitya academy award for கொற்கை this year. he is a paradhavar and proud of his ancient community which built the ships, manned the navy of the pandavas and cholas in their sea faring days.

a couple of interesting facts about the paradhavars... though 100% catholic, for centuries, when their ships leave their ports and pass by thiruchendur, the sentiment, even to this day, is to break open a coconut with the quote, மச்சானுக்கு தேங்கா ஓடையடா. for one of murugan's wife was a parathi (the other korathi).. valli and devyanai.

when they ships pass the kanyakumari, the same sentiment to break open a coconut for the amman.

joe got married in vadapalani temple and his novels கொற்கை & ஆழி சூழ் உலகு chronicle the lives of the paradhavars.

here are two linkes to two interesting interviews by joe on youtube. one on History and our Identity and the other very relaxed Virundhinar Pakkam interview with Sun TV. A remarkable Tamil and author, and I am sure you will like him :)
Click to expand...


His interview was published in 'The Hindu' dated 17.1.2014.
 
Chandru in # 128
Saligrama Puja by Vaishanavites proves that Vaishnavism takes a leaf out of Saivisim, since Saivism does not encourage Idol worship. While all Vaishnavite temples advocate only Idol worship with big Statues like Jains, both for Vishnu and God Men Rama, Krishna, Saligrama Puja is nothing but effect of Saivism.
#131
Yes. Propagated by Dikshithars, who are treated as a separate Sect.
#132
Vaishnavism cannot survive without accepting and adopting Saivite principles.
#146
Chandru ji,

Why are you so anti Vaishanavaism?? At the same time you call upon all Brahmins to unite as in Arise Awake but at the same time you seem to have some dislike for Vaishnavaism. Why?? Why??
ஏன்?? ஏன்??
I am a Hindu Brahmin and am not an anti-Vaishnavite. I mentioned about some practices of Vaishnavism, which has Saivite appeal.
Please don't assume on your own.
Click to expand...

Dear Sivappazham Chandru Sir,

If saivism does not encourage idol worship, why do we find a Nataraja, a Ganesha, a Subramanya, a Chandikeswara and a Amman idols in each and every Shiva temple? Have you visited the Madurai Temple. There is Meenakshi, Sundareswarar (Linga form), Subramanya, Ganesha and a Nataraja there. Have you visited the Tirunelveli Kanthimathi Amman Temple? There is a Nellaiyappar (LInga form), a kanthimathi Amman, A Subramanyar, a Ganesha and a Nataraja too. Have you visited the Mylapore temple? The same story there too. In all these places Dikshitars have no say. In fact I have not come across a single Shiva temple without these idols there.

What is the principle to be adopted by Vaishnavism to survive. Please enlighten us.

What is the practice you were mentioning in Vaishnavism.
 
Vaagmi said:
Dear Sivappazham Chandru Sir,

If saivism does not encourage idol worship, why do we find a Nataraja, a Ganesha, a Subramanya, a Chandikeswara and a Amman idols in each and every Shiva temple? Have you visited the Madurai Temple. There is Meenakshi, Sundareswarar (Linga form), Subramanya, Ganesha and a Nataraja there. Have you visited the Tirunelveli Kanthimathi Amman Temple? There is a Nellaiyappar (LInga form), a kanthimathi Amman, A Subramanyar, a Ganesha and a Nataraja too. Have you visited the Mylapore temple? The same story there too. In all these places Dikshitars have no say. In fact I have not come across a single Shiva temple without these idols there.

What is the principle to be adopted by Vaishnavism to survive. Please enlighten us.

What is the practice you were mentioning in Vaishnavism.
Click to expand...

The dancing Nataraja is not supposed to be worshipped at home, fyi. The linga represents the formless and endless pillar of light, which cannot be construed as an idol.

The 'ammans' are also formless. Fire needs water as a balancing and cooling force which is what 'ammans' symbolize. And as an aside, the ash smeared by Saivites represent the one and only reality to which you too are subject to.

Btw, what does the three-pronged white and red naamam signify? Siva's trident?
<edited and rephrased>
 
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ashwin_ash said:
The linga represents the formless and endless pillar of light, which cannot be construed as an idol.
Btw, what does your three-pronged white and red naamam signify? Siva's trident? LOL..
Click to expand...

How can a formless and endless pillar of light have a trident? For what purpose? Can it not achieve, what it could with the trident, without?

Could you please clarify as to which scripture says that linga is an endless and formless pillar of light and it is shiva, and that the ammans are formless and are a cooling force? Thanks in advance.
 
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