Religious conversion

[CHANDRU1849]

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I used to see the 'Change of Name' column in 'The Hindu' regularly. It is
shocking to note the incidence of converting to either Christianity or
Islam from Hinduism by both men and women is on the high side. While
it is negligible in the case of conversion from Christianity to other Religions,
it is almost 'nil' in the case of Islam.

Since India is a secular country and change of religion is one's own choice, the frequency of conversion from Hinduism is on the high side. This
needs to be looked thoroughly, whether conversion is due to affairs or
economic consideration.

While all religions preach compassion, tolerance, unity, brotherhood etc.,
conversion may pose danger to the existing culture, secular fabric of the
country.

Sometime back, an entire brahmin family (from the names I presumed),
got converted to Islam.

 

[ashwin_ash]

I used to see the 'Change of Name' column in 'The Hindu' regularly. It is
shocking to note the incidence of converting to either Christianity or
Islam from Hinduism by both men and women is on the high side. While
it is negligible in the case of conversion from Christianity to other Religions,
it is almost 'nil' in the case of Islam.

Since India is a secular country and change of religion is one's own choice, the frequency of conversion from Hinduism is on the high side. This
needs to be looked thoroughly, whether conversion is due to affairs or
economic consideration.

While all religions preach compassion, tolerance, unity, brotherhood etc.,
conversion may pose danger to the existing culture, secular fabric of the
country.

Sometime back, an entire brahmin family (from the names I presumed),
got converted to Islam.

Who cares.

 

[indianassault]

I dont see it as conversion. Its merely swearing allegiance to some other "Faith" or "God". When swearing of allegiance to other countries is becoming a norm, why not to other faiths?

 

[krish44]

I used to see the 'Change of Name' column in 'The Hindu' regularly. It is
shocking to note the incidence of converting to either Christianity or
Islam from Hinduism by both men and women is on the high side. While
it is negligible in the case of conversion from Christianity to other Religions,
it is almost 'nil' in the case of Islam.

Since India is a secular country and change of religion is one's own choice, the frequency of conversion from Hinduism is on the high side. This
needs to be looked thoroughly, whether conversion is due to affairs or
economic consideration.

While all religions preach compassion, tolerance, unity, brotherhood etc.,
conversion may pose danger to the existing culture, secular fabric of the
country.

Sometime back, an entire brahmin family (from the names I presumed),
got converted to Islam.

the reasons for conversion
1 marriage
2 discrimination due to caste
3 economic incentives offered for conversion
it is difficult to reduce the conversion and it is a small no of people. As ashwin says who cares

 

[B.Krishnamurthy]

This topic has been discussed previously in the Forum
I am unable to agree with the views expressed in Post No.4 that only small number of people get converted.
Many persons who got converted to Christianity keep Hind names to get benefits from the Government.

 

[Kuvalayavalli]

I used to see the 'Change of Name' column in 'The Hindu' regularly. It is
shocking to note the incidence of converting to either Christianity or
Islam from Hinduism by both men and women is on the high side. While
it is negligible in the case of conversion from Christianity to other Religions,
it is almost 'nil' in the case of Islam.

Since India is a secular country and change of religion is one's own choice, the frequency of conversion from Hinduism is on the high side. This
needs to be looked thoroughly, whether conversion is due to affairs or
economic consideration.

While all religions preach compassion, tolerance, unity, brotherhood etc.,
conversion may pose danger to the existing culture, secular fabric of the
country.

Sometime back, an entire brahmin family (from the names I presumed),
got converted to Islam.

Dear Chandru,

Do 100% of brahmins PRACTICE compassion, tolerance, unity, brotherhood etc.?

Could you please explain how conversion will pose danger to the existing culture, secular fabric of the
country?

What is the existing culture of the country?

What is the current secular fabric of the country?

What danger does conversion pose to the above?

What are the dangers conversion has posed till now?

Why superiority and inferiority exist among castes in India? Why brahmins consider themselves the most superior race in the world? How could such an attitude prevent conversion?

As brahmins, what shall we do to prevent/stall further conversions?

Is it conversion or change due to conviction?

If we have confidence in ourselves, why should we cry foul, fear conversion and why should we care, as ashwin_ash has put it? Does conversion merit our concern, attention? If yes, why and how?

 

[Kuvalayavalli]

when an iyengar visits siva temple and worships siva, we dont call it conversion?

when an advaitaite, visits ragavendra brindavan on thursdays and worships ragavendra, we dont call it conversion?

when someone whose family members do not worship any man born on earth, for generations, turns disciple of puttaparthi saibaba we dont call it conversion?

when hindus turn disciples of shirdi saibaba we dont call it conversion?

when in madras, i had visited velankanni shrine in besant nagar numerous times after worshipping at the lakshmi temple nearby and none said i converted.

when a shaivaite joins iskcon, none say he has converted.

but when a hindu worships God of Israel, we call it conversion. We also say all Gods are one, there is only one God who manifests in different forms (as krishna says in gita).

 

[Naina_Marbus]

If it is any consolation, here is a counter movement:

5500-christians-and-muslims-return-to-hinduism

 

[Iyyarooraan]

In a recent New Year Party many Hindus particularly girls enjoyed dancing, tamasha without any notion of Christianity. Most of them at the end were given a copy of Bible. This is a playground for them. They do not know God and will only know how to conduct the business and the business will be done honestly! It does not matter if they do not know God but God does know of them they do it for a living. Thank god we have benign a government which allows every thing!

 

[biswa]

The reason Muslims stay Muslim and Christians stay Christian is fear of divine retribution. In other words: declare your allegiance to Allah or Jesus or else we will make this life difficult for you.

In Hinduism it is the reverse, too many face discrimination on the basis of caste and economic status in their current existence. When faced with the option of being treated with disrespect from fellow Hindus or get Rs 100 by going to the church every Sunday, the choice becomes clear.

 

[Kuvalayavalli]

The reason .... or get Rs 100 by going to the church every Sunday, the choice becomes clear.

Could you prove with evidence that churches give Rs.100 to whomsoever visits every Sunday? Have you ever visited one such church and were offered Rs.100? If your statement is true, sincere, honest reveal that church to us and we will take appropriate action. I have the authority.

 

[auh]

Could you prove with evidence that churches give Rs.100 to whomsoever visits every Sunday? Have you ever visited one such church and were offered Rs.100? If your statement is true, sincere, honest reveal that church to us and we will take appropriate action. I have the authority.

Would you please reveal your identity so that your authority is established? For all we know "Kuvalayavalli" could very well be the person who controls churches.

Oh, this is not an unwanted probe... just felt that before asking some identity, you should perhaps disclose something about yourself, esp., if you are true, sincere, honest...

 

[CHANDRU1849]

when an iyengar visits siva temple and worships siva, we dont call it conversion?

when an advaitaite, visits ragavendra brindavan on thursdays and worships ragavendra, we dont call it conversion?

when someone whose family members do not worship any man born on earth, for generations, turns disciple of puttaparthi saibaba we dont call it conversion?

when hindus turn disciples of shirdi saibaba we dont call it conversion?

when in madras, i had visited velankanni shrine in besant nagar numerous times after worshipping at the lakshmi temple nearby and none said i converted.

when a shaivaite joins iskcon, none say he has converted.

but when a hindu worships God of Israel, we call it conversion. We also say all Gods are one, there is only one God who manifests in different forms (as krishna says in gita).

I think you get confused between conversion and occasional visit. If a Hindu converted to
Christianity or Islam, it means he is totally coming out from Hinduism and embracing the
new religion completely. Have you ever come across a converted Christian or Muslim visit
a Hindu temple regularly and follow Hindu customs?

Like Christianity, Hinduism also has several denominations and it is not strange a Saivite
visiting a Vaishnavite temple and vice versa.

Have you not come across a Protestant visiting a Catholic Church and a Catholic visiting
Protestant Church, though both have different customs and conventions?

If a Hindu worships the God of Israel permanently and follows the principle of the Israel God, it
is conversion.

 

[CHANDRU1849]

Dear Chandru,

Do 100% of brahmins PRACTICE compassion, tolerance, unity, brotherhood etc.?

Could you please explain how conversion will pose danger to the existing culture, secular fabric of the
country?

What is the existing culture of the country?

What is the current secular fabric of the country?

What danger does conversion pose to the above?

What are the dangers conversion has posed till now?

Why superiority and inferiority exist among castes in India? Why brahmins consider themselves the most superior race in the world? How could such an attitude prevent conversion?

As brahmins, what shall we do to prevent/stall further conversions?

Is it conversion or change due to conviction?

If we have confidence in ourselves, why should we cry foul, fear conversion and why should we care, as ashwin_ash has put it? Does conversion merit our concern, attention? If yes, why and how?

Jammu and Kashmir is a perfect example for all your queries. Apart from this, Hindu population
is at all time low in Pakistan and Bangladesh due to Muslim fundamentalists. Even Christians
are suffering in Pakistan.

 

[vgane]

Dear Chandru,

Do 100% of brahmins PRACTICE compassion, tolerance, unity, brotherhood etc.?

Could you please explain how conversion will pose danger to the existing culture, secular fabric of the
country?

What is the existing culture of the country?

What is the current secular fabric of the country?

What danger does conversion pose to the above?

What are the dangers conversion has posed till now?

Why superiority and inferiority exist among castes in India? Why brahmins consider themselves the most superior race in the world? How could such an attitude prevent conversion?

As brahmins, what shall we do to prevent/stall further conversions?

Is it conversion or change due to conviction?

If we have confidence in ourselves, why should we cry foul, fear conversion and why should we care, as ashwin_ash has put it? Does conversion merit our concern, attention? If yes, why and how?

When you convert you change your allegiance to a different country...Are conversions allowed in Islamic countries

Why are conversions allowed only in India...

In many cases, in case of conflicts, wars between countries, allegiance to your own country is important

We have seen several instances wherein even in a Cricket match between India and Pakistan, many Muslims side with Pakistan and celebrated Pakistan's triumph over India; what will happen in case of a war?

Look at Afghanistan where the Buddhist Bambiyan statues have been shattered to smithereens by bullets..Is that what you want in your country?

Already the concept of India is riled by Race, Language, Region and Caste

Do not further emaciate it by bringing in Conversions

Why are you bringing your so called Iyengar tag every now and then..Is it with some ulterior motive?

 

[prasad1]

When you convert you change your allegiance to a different country...Are conversions allowed in Islamic countries

Are you confusing Country and religion?

Why are conversions allowed only in India...
Conversions are talking place in majority of countries. It may not be happening in Muslim countries.
Religious conversion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
In many cases, in case of conflicts, wars between countries, allegiance to your own country is important
Please do not Insult the brave soldiers. There have been and are brave Indian Muslim soldiers who have put their lives in line for defense of India. Similarly there are various religious denomination in US Military forces.

We have seen several instances wherein even in a Cricket match between India and Pakistan, many Muslims side with Pakistan and celebrated Pakistan's triumph over India; what will happen in case of a war?

Tell that to the proud parents of Irfan Pathan They clapped, and clapped loud, as Irfan made his way back to the pavilion after stitching a century stand for the eighth wicket. His partnership with Yuvraj Singh pulled India out of the doldrums and also made his parents' trip worthwhile in 2004.

Look at Afghanistan where the Buddhist Bambiyan statues have been shattered to smithereens by bullets..Is that what you want in your country?

Already the concept of India is riled by Race, Language, Region and Caste

Do not further emaciate it by bringing in Conversions

Why are you bringing your so called Iyengar tag every now and then..Is it with some ulterior motive?

I agree that there are Pakis among Indian Muslims, but please do not paint all muslims with a broad stroke.
Conversion from one religion to another is a personal choice.

There are many but just one example here Satguru Bodhinatha Veylanswami of Kauai's Hindu Monastery - Guru Lineage & Philosophy

 

[Nara]

....Why are conversions allowed only in India...

vgane, you have not answered any of the questions raised by Kuvalayavalli. And, the response you have given does not add up either.

Obviously, India is not the only country that allows conversions, where did you get that?

Why converting to another religion will make you change allegiance to a different country? It does not make sense at all. If a Hindu converts to Christianity which country their allegiance will change to? I suppose you are talking only about conversions to Islam. Your fears of these converts are irrational and one might consider quite biased. There is no need to suspect an entire religious group.

Leaving aside speculative objections like these, why don't we look at this in a rational way. I would like to see somebody articulate the objections to religious conversions? Why allowing religious conversions is bad thing and must be forbidden. If you say your religion does not try to convert others (see note below) -- good for you, you are able to practice your religion. Christianity on the other hand wants to spread their so called "good news" to everybody. Their religion says they must try and bring as many people as possible to Jesus. If you can practice your religion by not trying to convert anybody, why can't Christians practice their religion and try to convert as many people as they can. Ultimately to convert or not is the individual's choice, if nobody takes their overtures seriously, there would be no conversions anyway however hard they may try.

This brings me to the payment issue. They pay money to induce conversion is another irrational objection. So what if they pay Rs. 100 for people to attend Sunday Church service and people take advantage of that? What is the problem? They are not forcing anybody to come and take the money. People can attend the service, take the money, and then go to a Hindu temple to really worship. Why is offering monetary incentives to convert objectionable?

p.s.
Yes, there is no "Hindu" doctrine to go out and convert others. However, historically, conversions have taken place all the time. We read about Kings converting from Jainism to Saivam or Vaishnvam, etc. There is even a relatively recent example of proselytization by a Hindu -- Prabhupada travelled from Calcutta to USA with the express purpose of spreading his brand of Vaishnavam to Christians and his disciples are still at it, trying to convert people to ISKCON.

 

[krish44]

The reason Muslims stay Muslim and Christians stay Christian is fear of divine retribution. In other words: declare your allegiance to Allah or Jesus or else we will make this life difficult for you.

In Hinduism it is the reverse, too many face discrimination on the basis of caste and economic status in their current existence. When faced with the option of being treated with disrespect from fellow Hindus or get Rs 100 by going to the church every Sunday, the choice becomes clear.

Biswa ji what you say is quite true.
my only grouse is they sell themselves for very little and change their faith . yet they would like to have the advantages of caste based reservations after conversion. they change their religion without getting rid of caste . it follows them in their new adopted religion. now we have dalit muslims and christians

 

[krish44]

vgane, you have not answered any of the questions raised by Kuvalayavalli. And, the response you have given does not add up either.

Obviously, India is not the only country that allows conversions, where did you get that?

Why converting to another religion will make you change allegiance to a different country? It does not make sense at all. If a Hindu converts to Christianity which country their allegiance will change to? I suppose you are talking only about conversions to Islam. Your fears of these converts are irrational and one might consider quite biased. There is no need to suspect an entire religious group.

Leaving aside speculative objections like these, why don't we look at this in a rational way. I would like to see somebody articulate the objections to religious conversions? Why allowing religious conversions is bad thing and must be forbidden. If you say your religion does not try to convert others (see note below) -- good for you, you are able to practice your religion. Christianity on the other hand wants to spread their so called "good news" to everybody. Their religion says they must try and bring as many people as possible to Jesus. If you can practice your religion by not trying to convert anybody, why can't Christians practice their religion and try to convert as many people as they can. Ultimately to convert or not is the individual's choice, if nobody takes their overtures seriously, there would be no conversions anyway however hard they may try.

This brings me to the payment issue. They pay money to induce conversion is another irrational objection. So what if they pay Rs. 100 for people to attend Sunday Church service and people take advantage of that? What is the problem? They are not forcing anybody to come and take the money. People can attend the service, take the money, and then go to a Hindu temple to really worship. Why is offering monetary incentives to convert objectionable?

p.s.
Yes, there is no "Hindu" doctrine to go out and convert others. However, historically, conversions have taken place all the time. We read about Kings converting from Jainism to Saivam or Vaishnvam, etc. There is even a relatively recent example of proselytization by a Hindu -- Prabhupada travelled from Calcutta to USA with the express purpose of spreading his brand of Vaishnavam to Christians and his disciples are still at it, trying to convert people to ISKCON.

Nara ji
There is no question of raising objection to conversion to any religion My only feeling is if they are taking to conversion to get rid of caste tags ,they are not succeeding. they are only carrying it into another religion . now we have dalit christians and muslims who do not get different status in converted religion. also some want to keep edu. and job caste based quotas after conversion.they convert for minor compensation.If incentives are substantial for the really very poor it may be worth it
reconversion to hindu fold is taking place courtesy one political party with hindutva agenda. bad part of it is it is thru coercion not incentives

 

[கால பைரவன்]

yet they would like to have the advantages of caste based reservations after conversion. they change their religion without getting rid of caste . it follows them in their new adopted religion. now we have dalit muslims and christians

That is because caste predates religion and hence converting to another religion does not necessitate removal of caste unless the adopting religion expressively bans caste. So you don't only find dalit Christian. There is also nadar Christian and we also see iyengar Christians.

There are also concrete rational benefits bestowed by the govt if you belong to certain religions in India. Therefore it is highly rational to convert into one of these religions, if one can overcome the emotional bonding one has with his parent religion.

 

[Nara]

...There is no question of raising objection to conversion to any religion My only feeling is if they are taking to conversion to get rid of caste tags ,they are not succeeding. they are only carrying it into another religion . now we have dalit christians and muslims who do not get different status in converted religion. also some want to keep edu. and job caste based quotas after conversion.they convert for minor compensation.If incentives are substantial for the really very poor it may be worth it reconversion to hindu fold is taking place courtesy one political party with hindutva agenda. bad part of it is it is thru coercion not incentives

Yes, this is an important discussion, but is orthogonal to the issue of opposing the right of religious people to proselytize if they want to.

I never really understood why Dalits lost their reservation benefits just because they convert to another religion where at least they can find theoretical dignity. This reconversion is a funny thing, it is "converting" even though it is a "re" conversion, so the argument that Hindus don't convert has another chink, besides the ones I mentioned in my last post.

I agree that by converting people go from one religious delusion to another. And when they do so, the caste tag still haunts them. For an interesting account of this I would recommend the book கருக்கு, by Bama, a Dalit writer who is a Christian.

 

[krish44]

Dear Chandru,

Do 100% of brahmins PRACTICE compassion, tolerance, unity, brotherhood etc.?

Could you please explain how conversion will pose danger to the existing culture, secular fabric of the
country?

What is the existing culture of the country?

What is the current secular fabric of the country?

What danger does conversion pose to the above?

What are the dangers conversion has posed till now?

Why superiority and inferiority exist among castes in India? Why brahmins consider themselves the most superior race in the world? How could such an attitude prevent conversion?

As brahmins, what shall we do to prevent/stall further conversions?

Is it conversion or change due to conviction?

If we have confidence in ourselves, why should we cry foul, fear conversion and why should we care, as ashwin_ash has put it? Does conversion merit our concern, attention? If yes, why and how?

sir/madam
you have raised very interesting questions.
varna system has been handed down to us by our ancestors based on division of people into castes and each caste being given a particuler type of work. unfortunately we also got a graded system of classification of caste -some being considered superior to others.
brahmin ended up collecting a superior caste tag as against dalits
conversion in my opinion is no solution to the issue .brahmins can do precious little to improve their lot as they themself have been marginalised in tamil nadu
IMHO only a few elite hindus convert due to conviction . others it is the minor incentives and a hope they will not be discriminated in new converted religion.however the converts have carried their caste tags into their converted religion . there are dalit muslims and christians. also these converts want advantages of caste based edu. and job quotas after conversion.
ash is correct . we hardly need to be concerned if out of our very large population if a few convert ,it does not merit much attention.

 

[Iyyarooraan]

You can write so many things on the others. If we do, their minds will be in eternal turbulence. Why hurt poor souls. They ridicule us that we pray to different gods. Christians say pray only to Jesus. Muslims say the same thing and exhort us to pray to Allah who is only one. Do they ridicule themselves? There was a video behind us in this forum which showed a man (qualified?) from N/Arcot who travelled from being a Naidu to Christianity, Budhdhism and finally found peace with Islam elsewhere. Whether he is now at peace? God only knows!

 

[tks]

Would you please reveal your identity so that your authority is established? For all we know "Kuvalayavalli" could very well be the person who controls churches.

Oh, this is not an unwanted probe... just felt that before asking some identity, you should perhaps disclose something about yourself, esp., if you are true, sincere, honest...

Nature of questions reveal the identity.. Best is to ask the person to provide answers too which I know will not be forthcoming.

The original St Thomas Christians do not pose any longer term threat to anyone. The Christians of today and religion of Islam are *exclusive* in their doctrine and theology. Therefore conversion is a required part of the theology.

Conversion aspects leads to longer term violence. If someone wants blood shed in India between Christians and Muslims let them divide up India by promoting conversion.

These religions themselves talk about peace but insist on conversion using any means which is an act of violence.

If someone wants to convert voluntarily to Buddhism, or Judaism there is no problem because those religions do not have the cancer of conversion built into their theology.

 

[Nara]

Would you please reveal your identity so that your authority is established? For all we know "Kuvalayavalli" could very well be the person who controls churches.

Oh, this is not an unwanted probe... just felt that before asking some identity, you should perhaps disclose something about yourself, esp., if you are true, sincere, honest...

But she was not asking for the identity of the individual (biswa) all that she is asking for is the identity of the church where Rs. 100 was being offered. Biswa can name the church without revealing his identity. Whatever Kuvalayavalli wants to do after that is for her to choose. What is the logic for the demand that she reveal her identity?