Religious conversion

[கால பைரவன்]

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It is one thing to ask for the name of the church. But when somebody asks you to "prove with evidence" I think it is natural to be wanting to make sure whether the member has the authority as claimed.

 

[prasad1]

Could you prove with evidence that churches give Rs.100 to whomsoever visits every Sunday? Have you ever visited one such church and were offered Rs.100? If your statement is true, sincere, honest reveal that church to us and we will take appropriate action. I have the authority.

The style reminds me of some one who was in this site before. What authority you have? Please disclose.

 

[Nara]

It is one thing to ask for the name of the church. But when somebody asks you to "prove with evidence" I think it is natural to be wanting to make sure whether the member has the authority as claimed.

I don't think that one single word "evidence" makes it alright to demand she reveal her identity. All of us have one time or another, occasionally or frequently have demanded evidence without being asked to reveal our identity, and so it is only logical to expect the same rule should apply in this case as well, unless of course suspected Christians don't enjoy the same right to privacy.

 

[கால பைரவன்]

"Provide Evidence. I shall take action" is what was said. I think a person who goes through the trouble of collecting and providing such evidence to the authority has the right to know to whom the evidence is provided. Of course all this can be done withhout compromising privacy to an extent by disclosing the identity through PM only to the said member who provides such evidence.

 

[Nara]

Agreed KB, let Biswa and Kuvalayavalli handle this identity part by PM if they so wish, others have no business demanding her identity as this a matter between those two. Others as spectators can expect to know how the matter was finally resolved, but they have no standing for demanding her identity be revealed.

 

[கால பைரவன்]

The style reminds me of some one who was in this site before.

I am commenting here in general and not about this particular doubt of Prasad.

This doubt frequently arises among some members. I think one way to overcome this problem is for the admins to automatically track the IP of participants and check whether the same member uses multiple IDs. May be creative and motivated people will be able to trick anyways, but this will at least act as a first order deterrent. who knows, many skeletons might come out and this will also prevent people from unnecessarily speculate about other members.

Not sure whether this is feasible. Do not know about the legalilty of this either. Just a suggestion.

 

[Nara]

....Not sure whether this is feasible. Do not know about the legalilty of this either. Just a suggestion.

Since this does not involve surreptitious tracking I don't think there is any legal issues. However, Praveen will have to spend time on this.

I don't understand why anyone would want to do maintain multiple IDs, what is the point? Unless the member is being disruptive or abusive, I don't know why it matters anybody, unless poster's identity is a determining factor in the way one wants to see the expressed opinion.

As is we do nothing about repeatedly abusive posters, so what benefit is there trying to find the identity of a poster who is not abusive or disruptive just because there is a suspicion that he/she may have multiple IDs?

This questioning of identity is done only when a new poster shows up who seems to somehow not belong, i.e. Hindu or Brahmin. Just a few days ago Aseervadam was questioned, and now this person. I myself may have been hounded out in my early days except Kunjuppu, KRS and Silverfox allowed me to express my contrarian views freely.

My request is for all of us to not worry about anybody's identity, let us just focus on what is said, unless the suspicious member is abusive and insulting others.

 

[கால பைரவன்]

I recall that sometime back a member was banned because he was posting under multiple IDs. If I remember correctly, the admins figured this out by tracking the IP and it was KRS who had requested the tracking. He had some reason to doubt about this particular member. Multiple IDs are sometimes used to project popular support for a given opinion. In other forums I have seen people taking multiple IDs for many different reasons including baiting. This is a problem here because this forum is not totally anonymous.

 

[Nara]

KB, if there is a specific policy forbidding multiple ID then that is the policy, whether I agree with it or not, I have no say in the matter.

What happens in other forums is relevant only so far as what we need to be watchful about. As of now, it is those who are supposed to "belong" who are heaping abuses, the ones who are being challenged vigorously are not the flame throwers.

IMHO, yes I will throw in humble, simple suspicion of multiple ID is not sufficient grounds to treat them differently than the rest of us. Who is காலபைரவன் anyhow, do I have a right to demand to know? Or the many others who go by their three letter initials? The only thing we know about all these members is that most of them are full throated supporters of Brahminism. Does that make them exempt from the scrutiny advocated for their perceived opponents? What have they done that is so outrageous that their real identity must be revealed before any further discussion can proceed? I don't get it.

Once again, I repeat myself, let us worry less about who is saying it and focus only on what is being said.

 

[கால பைரவன்]

As of now, it is those who are supposed to "belong" who are heaping abuses, the ones who are being challenged vigorously are not the flame throwers.

What all constitute abuse or lack of civility is something that has been debated before and not all would uniformly agree with your, or, I understand, my, contention.

IMHO, yes I will throw in humble, simple suspicion of multiple ID is not sufficient grounds to treat them differently than the rest of us.

Of course suspicion is not enough. That is why I suggested a possible solution.

Who is காலபைரவன் anyhow, do I have a right to demand to know? Or the many others who go by their three letter initials? The only thing we know about all these members is that most of them are full throated supporters of Brahminism. Does that make them exempt from the scrutiny advocated for their perceived opponents? What have they done that is so outrageous that their real identity must be revealed before any further discussion can proceed? I don't get it.

I thought we are talking about the issue of mutiple IDs and not identities anymore. On the identity question, I had already provided my opinion. I don't think I advocated selective scrutiny of anyone. Even on the issue of multiple IDs, I only suggested automatic tracking of IP and did not say only members with anti-brahmin/anti-brahminstic view should be tracked. Of course, I have come to expect such strawman arguments from you. When I first started writing in this forum, both Sangom and Kunjuppu had doubts about my identity and wanted to know my [caste] credentials. So, this street is not one-way street and this is not the first time such a demand has been placed!

 

[Nara]

... Of course, I have come to expect such strawman arguments from you.

Well, you strike again, LOL. KB, do you have to do this? I am now more informed about what your true opinion of me is and I am indeed saddened.

When I first started writing in this forum, both Sangom and Kunjuppu had doubts about my identity and wanted to know my [caste] credentials.

If they did that, then I am on your side, they didn't have any business questioning your identity.

KB, don't let your emotions take over your rationality. It is a fact that only those who are seen as the "other" are put under the microscope, some exceptions here and there not withstanding. Even so, what is your problem with my earnest request, namely, let us focus on the content of the views expressed and not on the identity of the people making the arguments. I think this simple request is a reasonable one. If you see this as a straw man, let it be.

BTW, FYI, identity and and multiple ID are interrelated...

 

[Kuvalayavalli]

Would you please reveal your identity so that your authority is established? For all we know "Kuvalayavalli" could very well be the person who controls churches.

Oh, this is not an unwanted probe... just felt that before asking some identity, you should perhaps disclose something about yourself, esp., if you are true, sincere, honest...

Read my post in 'Introductions' thread.

 

[Kuvalayavalli]

The freedom of expression given in this forum cannot be abused to make factually inaccurate statements especially about religous institutions. To demand an evidence of malicious charges does not mandate revelation of identity. I trust the forum owners agree to this. Would a statement like 'Brahmins of old bribed others into accepting that brahmins are the highest caste' be acceptable without evidence? Would a demand for evidence of such statement mandate revelation of the demander's identity?

 

[krish44]

frankly ,naraji is correct that we should see a point of view different from ours irrespective of identity of the person.
members can have different IP addresses if they are on tour to various countries or cities and post from nearest available desktops . there is nothing illegal about this. When I logged into my facebook account from singapore last week when I was visiting the country,it verified my identity saying IP address mismatch. This is just a social forum discussing brahmin issues. We should not unduly bother and create headaches for ourself unless the post is abusive when we have the option to terminate the membership after a few warnings

 

[கால பைரவன்]

BTW, FYI, identity and multiple ID are interrelated.

That is like saying apple and fish are interrelated because they are both eaten as food

The fact that the forum does not mandate to reveal a member's real identity. Nara, TKS, and KB are all only forum identities and there needs to be no relation to our real identity. This framework is plenty enough for any sincere participant.

members can have different IP addresses if they are on tour to various countries or cities and post from nearest available desktops . there is nothing illegal about this. When I logged into my facebook account from singapore last week when I was visiting the country,it verified my identity saying IP address mismatch. This is just a social forum discussing brahmin issues.

That is not the problem we are talking about. we are talking about the problem of multiple IDs arising out of the same IP!

I am feeling tired and not really inclined to explain in detail why I consider this as a problem. I hope you would excuse me for this.

Perhaps, when the problem shows up, we can have a discussion!

 

[ashwin_ash]

That is like saying apple and fish are interrelated because they are both eaten as food

The fact that the forum does not mandate to reveal a member's real identity. Nara, TKS, and KB are all only forum identities and there needs to be no relation to our real identity. This framework is plenty enough for any sincere participant.



That is not the problem we are talking about. we are talking about the problem of multiple IDs arising out of the same IP!

I am feeling tired and not really inclined to explain in detail why I consider this as a problem. I hope you would excuse me for this.

Perhaps, when the problem shows up, we can have a discussion!

Acquiring a dynamic IP is as simple as logging on to a free proxy server. However, why anyone would do this, and that too in this forum which is basically harmless (even the arguments are mostly banter), unless it is for nefarious purposes (again, why use this forum, there are several other fora) is beyond my understanding.

 

[sarang]

With a proper religious conversion law in place, with affidavits from the convert and converted, witnesses, evaluation period, objection analysis in front of a magistrate will solve most of the problems and heart burn.

Conversion by blackmail, inducement, brainwashing can be identified and stopped.

 

[auh]

Nature of questions reveal the identity.. Best is to ask the person to provide answers too which I know will not be forthcoming.

The original St Thomas Christians do not pose any longer term threat to anyone. The Christians of today and religion of Islam are *exclusive* in their doctrine and theology. Therefore conversion is a required part of the theology.

Conversion aspects leads to longer term violence. If someone wants blood shed in India between Christians and Muslims let them divide up India by promoting conversion.

These religions themselves talk about peace but insist on conversion using any means which is an act of violence.

If someone wants to convert voluntarily to Buddhism, or Judaism there is no problem because those religions do not have the cancer of conversion built into their theology.

Here in Abu Dhabi, I had a person from one of our group companies come to me with the agenda of indirect assimilation. He tried to persuade me to join prayer groups stating that all problems of the mind and body would be cured. He claimed that even the physically handicapped had been cured instantly (basically it was the "Paul Dinakaran" type of talk). We had a debate, short but effective and then he troubles me no more. He now turns away from me even though I throw a smile at him whenever the occasion puts us face to face.

Conversion is a political and economic tool; the lower ranks (i.e., the footsoldier), in their devotional frenzy, may not realize it.

 

[auh]

....Whatever Kuvalayavalli wants to do after that is for her to choose. What is the logic for the demand that she reveal her identity?

Absolutely. You are right; Kuvalayavalli can do whatever Kuvalayavalli chooses and perhaps that logic holds good even for decisions and actions that are yours and mine.

Kuvalayavalli said this

Could you prove with evidence that churches give Rs.100 to whomsoever visits every Sunday? Have you ever visited one such church and were offered Rs.100? If your statement is true, sincere, honest reveal that church to us and we will take appropriate action. I have the authority.

All I wanted to verify was the sincerity, honesty and truth in Kuvalayavalli's statement that he/she indeed did have the authority to have appropriate action. Call it as the reaction of the everpresent curiosity of the cat on seeing the claims of an individual, who attests to have an authority on church administration, and striding along in a brahmin forum questioning brahminness etc (not that it is forbidden). Mine was only a reciprocal question of sincerity, honesty and truth; and absolutely not logical, as you have already pointed out. I admit.

 

[auh]

Agreed KB, let Biswa and Kuvalayavalli handle this identity part by PM if they so wish, others have no business demanding her identity as this a matter between those two. Others as spectators can expect to know how the matter was finally resolved, but they have no standing for demanding her identity be revealed.

Not so fast. It was a public post in a public forum and you do not have the right to arbitrate matters on how things should proceed. If it were a private matter, Kuvalayavalli could very well have made a pm to biswa (after completing the number of posts required to enable a pm) to enquire on the matter.

 

[B.Krishnamurthy]

I refer to post No.37.
I waded through the "Introduce Yourself" thread and could not locate the posting of the Member.
Serial No.is assigned for each post in that thread.
I request the member to indicate the Serial No. to enable to see the Post.
I should also thank the member for giving me an opportunity to go through this thread "as I could come across a nice post by member "Kanfusion" at Serial No.3627 on 1/12/2013.
The member had quoted a poem to illustrate a point which he has made to the effect
"In every Group only a few Gifted(? )ones receive the limelight"
The Member 'Kanfusion' is a very knowledgeable person,held a senior level post in GOvt of India,Incometax Dept,
has contributed extensively in other Forums.
I am surprised that he prefers to be a 'Silent Member' in this Forum.

 

[vgane]

Why converting to another religion will make you change allegiance to a different country? It does not make sense at all. If a Hindu converts to Christianity which country their allegiance will change to? I suppose you are talking only about conversions to Islam.

Let us take the example of the Koodankulam anti nuclear agitation...The Church is spearheading the agitation in the garb of an NGO...The local Hindus are not supporting this...Due to the agitation Power plant production was delayed by almost 6 months

Let us take the North East which is now fully under the control of Church...You cannot bypass the Church in Mizoram or Nagaland ..In case you do, you will be excoriated and subjected to other forms of agitations and militant terror..Why are the MSM silent about it??

Finally it boils down to "Is secularism only for Hindus"?

 

[sarang]

Church-backed watchdog body has its own poll rules November 2013 elections in mizoram

AIZWAL: 'Thy Kingdom Come' . That's how Mizoram welcomes you. Painted big and bold across a giant Cross a few yards from the runway at state capital Aizwal's Lengpui airport, the message seems ominous as you get familiar with the political nitty-gritty of this Christian-dominated state.
The election process has a sense of divine edict about it. The Church pushed the Election Commission to reschedule polling and counting dates to accommodate the Presbyterian Church's fiveday Synod despite chief electoral officer Ashwani Kumar's protests; counting was postponed by a day to December 9 because 'Sunday is meant for prayers'. Not just that, the clergy also plays virtual election commission. The Church has issued a four-page list of do's and don'ts for voters and candidates. Apart from the honesty and harmony bits, it says: "Refrain from voting for those who drink or have extra-marital sex." With almost 70% of Mizoram following the Presbyterian Church, no party rubs them the wrong way.

Church-backed watchdog body has its own poll rules - Times Of India

Let us take the example of the Koodankulam anti nuclear agitation...The Church is spearheading the agitation in the garb of an NGO...The local Hindus are not supporting this...Due to the agitation Power plant production was delayed by almost 6 months

Let us take the North East which is now fully under the control of Church...You cannot bypass the Church in Mizoram or Nagaland ..In case you do, you will be excoriated and subjected to other forms of agitations and militant terror..Why are the MSM silent about it??

Finally it boils down to "Is secularism only for Hindus"?

 

[Nara]

Read my post in 'Introductions' thread.

As of this post you have 13 in this web site, not one of them is in the Introductions thread. You don't have to introduce yourself AFAIC, but if you did post an introduction may I request you to give the link.

 

[Nara]

Let us take the example of the Koodankulam anti nuclear agitation...The Church is spearheading the agitation in the garb of an NGO...The local Hindus are not supporting this...Due to the agitation Power plant production was delayed by almost 6 months

You are mixing two different issues, opposition to the nuclear plant is a legitimate political activity. They have every right to engage in peaceful civil disobedience. If you don't like their view you don't have to join. But this has nothing to do with the questions Kuvalayavalli raised.

Let us take the North East which is now fully under the control of Church...You cannot bypass the Church in Mizoram or Nagaland ..In case you do, you will be excoriated and subjected to other forms of agitations and militant terror..Why are the MSM silent about it??

If the Church in Mizoram is illegally interfering in the government then action needs to be taken. That does no negate their right to proseletize as much as they want, as long as they are doing it in a legal way.

Finally it boils down to "Is secularism only for Hindus"?

So many temples are still under the control of Brahmins because of this concept of secularism. Secularism is for all of us.