Religious Conversion and freedom of religion

[prasad1]

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This is not the first time, about this topic. But it seems to be bothersome to some of us.

Image Source - https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/08/07/inspiring-interfaith-top-quotes_n_3678988.htmlIntroduction

India is always known for its cultural, linguistic and religious diversity. As evident, it is the birthplace of four major religions of the world: Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, and Sikhism. In 1950, Constitution through 42nd Amendment Act, 1976 declared India as a secular state which means everyone has a right to practice his or her religion peacefully. In India, there is a Constitutional safeguard for religious conversion as a right to freedom of religion. But the question arises to what extent these religious conversions are protected under freedom of religion? So, the main object of this article is to analyze the scope of freedom of religion guaranteed under a fundamental right and to solve as many as queries in the context of religious conversions.

India does not have any state religion nor it patronizes any specific religion. Religion is basically a matter of choice, faith or sets of belief. According to Webster’s Comprehensive Dictionary, religion means a belief binding the spiritual nature of man to a supernatural being as involving a feeling of dependence and responsibility, together with the feelings and practices which naturally flow from such a belief. Everyone should be left free to choose the religion of their choice. For this, Indian Constitution provides the freedom to profess, practice and propagate any religion to all persons. Religious conversion is one of the most heated issues in the society and politics which can be defined as the adoption of any other religion or of a set of beliefs by the exclusion of other i.e. renouncing one religion and adopting another. There are various reasons for which people do convert their religion like:

• Voluntary Conversions i.e. conversions by free choice or because of change of beliefs.
• Forceful Conversions i.e. conversions by coercion, undue influence or inducement.
• Marital Conversions i.e. conversions due to marriage.
• Conversion for convenience.

https://blog.ipleaders.in/religious-conversion-law/

 

[prasad1]

There are people who convert their religion for other trivial reasons which have been seen are polygamy, to get reservation benefits, for gaining admission benefits in some institutions that favor people of a certain religion only, divorce etc.

The question is what does the law say about such people? There are some landmark judgments in this regard. In Smt Sarla Mudgal, President Kalyani and others vs. UOI and others,[10] a Hindu husband converted his religion to Islam and solemnized a second marriage as polygamy is permitted in Islam. Supreme Court held that such marriages would be void on the grounds of bigamy under section 17 of the Hindu Marriage Act, 1955 and such person will be held liable under section 494 of the Indian Penal Code, 1860. Also, such conversions to Islam will not be considered as a valid conversion if it is done for the purpose of polygamy. So if a conversion takes place for any wrongful gain then it will not be considered as a valid conversion. The same rationale was given in Lily Thomas, Etc. vs. Union of India & Ors., case. In Faheem Ahmed vs. Maviya @ Luxmi, respondent converted to Islam for getting membership of the library at Jama Masjid. Court held the conversion invalid as it did take place for the wrongful gain only. So, any conversion for any wrongful gain would not be considered as a valid conversion.

But we accepted such conversions (namely Dharmendra-Hema Malini).

 

[krish44]

Among the poor religious conversion is not a major issue.

Most Hindus convert for help from church for education of children in convent schools ,turn muslims if they get persecuted for being dalits by caste Hindus.

These can revert back for economic considerations if it suits them.

Youngsters do not take caste and religion seriously.

They worry more about job oppurtunities,access to quality education besides good quality of day to day life

 

[CHANDRU1849]

For arguments sake, it is good to talk about freedom of choice, expression etc. But, finally the sufferer is the Hindu Religion.

Even after partition, the space of Hindus is getting reduced gradually in India.

While Christian and Muslim majority countries are very careful to protect their Religions, Hinduism is definitely in a precarious condition.

The status cannot be changed unless Hindus have their space exclusively with strict laws.

 

[Brahmanyan]

There is nothing new in religious conversion. This has been happening for generations. The reasons may be different. It is my personal view no one need to change the label and search for the change in the content.

Here is a piece of instruction Shringeri Acharya Chandrasekhara Bharathi gave to a European gentleman who came to Acharya to convert himself to Hinduism.

"Sri Chandrasekhara Bharati said that the path of dharma was broad enough to accommodate
various beliefs and there was absolutely no necessity to quarrel about the relative merits and demerits of the various paths
or faiths. What was important was the practical realisation of the truth. The catholicity, broadmindedness and practical convictions
of Sri Chandrasekhara Bharati are brought out in a conversation with a European gentleman, an excerpt of which is given here:

European: Your Holiness, I have been
studying your religion for many years
now and am fascinated by its various aspects.
I wonder if I could convert to Hinduism and if Your Holiness could initiate me!
Swami: Have you studied the aspects of your own religion thoroughly?
European: I am afraid not, but I have, to a certain extent, tried to follow the precepts of Christianity.Unfortunately, I have not been able to meet a genuine spiritual
master of Christianity so that I can clarify my doubts.
Swami: In the first place, every human being can be said to belong to Sanatana Dharma or what is today called Hinduism, because of the fact that most of the tenets of other religions are contained in
Sanatana Dharma. However, God must have had a purpose in causing you to be born in a particular religion. I also cannot accept your opinion that there do not exist
genuine spiritual masters belonging to your own religion. It is not necessary for you to convert to Hinduism in order to realise the truth. Go back and devote your
time to study of Christianity in depth.
Also, if you sincerely search for spiritual masters within your own religion you will definitely find them and they will solve your doubts in no time.
European: Your Holiness, I am amazed at your catholicity and I do not know how to thank you, but now I go back, determined to live the life of a better Christian."
(Dialogues with the Gufu)

This applies to all religious comnversions.

Brahmanyan
Bangalore.

 

[prasad1]

Generally, when we want to curtails "others" freedom of choice, it means if others are opposed to "my" way of thinking.

When we call others as Anti-India Anti-Hindu, just because they have different POV, is plain wrong.
WHO gives the authority, that we can judge others, by OUR (EGO) standards.

I live in a country where I have the guarantee of my freedom. We have many Hindu temples, and can very much follow anything that is legal.

We do get Church groups coming to the door asking us to change, we have Swadyaya group convince us to visit them.
I have my personal religion, I am not converting at the same time I have no interest in what others do.
Sinhan ke lehde nahi, hansan ke nahi path
Ladan ki nahi boria, Sadhu na chale Jamat.

Tigers do not congregate in groups.
Anna Pakshi do not gather in flocks.
You do not have a sackful of Rubies.
Similarly, Sadhus do not need a crowd.

As far as getting a privilege for being a member of a community, we all join clubs.
Now Lingayats are not Hindus, Ramakrishna Mission does not want to be Hindu.

 

[prasad1]

For arguments sake, it is good to talk about freedom of choice, expression etc. But, finally the sufferer is the Hindu Religion.

Even after partition, the space of Hindus is getting reduced gradually in India.

While Christian and Muslim majority countries are very careful to protect their Religions, Hinduism is definitely in a precarious condition.

The status cannot be changed unless Hindus have their space exclusively with strict laws.

In a group where numbers count, I understand your argument. It is not for Religion or higher truth.
It is purely for counting.

 

[CHANDRU1849]

In a group where numbers count, I understand your argument. It is not for Religion or higher truth.
It is purely for counting.

It is only the numbers which decide Majority and Minority in countries where Abrahamic Religions are being practiced. The Minorities have to go as per directives. As far as Hinduism is concerned, even if it is large following, it has to take the back seat. Time and again it is being proved.

More Hindu Temples may come up in the West and the following may have lot of restrictions.

Beyond any reasonable doubt, Hinduism is following the Zoroastrian way.

 

[a-TB]

There is nothing new in religious conversion. This has been happening for generations. The reasons may be different. It is my personal view no one need to change the label and search for the change in the content.

Here is a piece of instruction Shringeri Acharya Chandrasekhara Bharathi gave to a European gentleman who came to Acharya to convert himself to Hinduism.

"Sri Chandrasekhara Bharati said that the path of dharma was broad enough to accommodate
various beliefs and there was absolutely no necessity to quarrel about the relative merits and demerits of the various paths
or faiths. What was important was the practical realisation of the truth. The catholicity, broadmindedness and practical convictions
of Sri Chandrasekhara Bharati are brought out in a conversation with a European gentleman, an excerpt of which is given here:

European: Your Holiness, I have been
studying your religion for many years
now and am fascinated by its various aspects.
I wonder if I could convert to Hinduism and if Your Holiness could initiate me!
Swami: Have you studied the aspects of your own religion thoroughly?
European: I am afraid not, but I have, to a certain extent, tried to follow the precepts of Christianity.Unfortunately, I have not been able to meet a genuine spiritual
master of Christianity so that I can clarify my doubts.
Swami: In the first place, every human being can be said to belong to Sanatana Dharma or what is today called Hinduism, because of the fact that most of the tenets of other religions are contained in
Sanatana Dharma. However, God must have had a purpose in causing you to be born in a particular religion. I also cannot accept your opinion that there do not exist
genuine spiritual masters belonging to your own religion. It is not necessary for you to convert to Hinduism in order to realise the truth. Go back and devote your
time to study of Christianity in depth.
Also, if you sincerely search for spiritual masters within your own religion you will definitely find them and they will solve your doubts in no time.
European: Your Holiness, I am amazed at your catholicity and I do not know how to thank you, but now I go back, determined to live the life of a better Christian."
(Dialogues with the Gufu)

This applies to all religious comnversions.

Brahmanyan
Bangalore.

Very informative post.

Christianity, Islam = My way or you are going to hell or you are an infidel. Also they require conversion as part of their religion to expand their base.

Other religions = Live and let live, no conversion mandated even if they feel they are the best

If world or India is divided up into Islam and Christianity there will no peace forever and only blood shed.

If anyone wants proof:

Look at Trumps and his type's hatred towards Islam, and look at the hatred of Islamic extremists towards Christians (and everyone) .
Most people are peace loving in both religions but extremes define them because they have the power.

Those who think they are secular and broadminded by supporting proactive conversion by Islam and Christianity in India are gullible or on a ego trip (of being broad minded) or both.

Anyone should be free to convert if it is done on their own but not by power of Christianity and Islam from world wide resources.

I hope we do not have such threads anymore and if there are I do not want to comment on them.

But I like Brahmanyan Sir's post in this topic

 

[Brahmanyan]

When I was searching for information on Religious conversions in India, I stepped into some interesting information, one among them was, that the printing in First non European language in India was Tamil. Here is a brief account of the same:


தமிழின் முதல் அச்சு புத்தகம்
"ஆகாசமும் பூமியும் படச்சவன் சர்வமும் ஆனவனே, பிதாவே தம்பிரானே விசுவாசம். அவ்வண்ணம் என்னடே கர்த்தாவே யேசு கிறிஸ்து அவ்வனடே புத்ரனே ஒருவனே. சுத்தமான சித்தத்தினொடெய கருணே கொண்டு கெற்பம் ஆயி: கன்னியாஸ்திரி மரியத்தில் பெறந்தவன்: போஞ்சியு பிலாத்து விதித்த விதிகொண்டு வெசனப்பட்டு: குருசினில் தூக்கிச் செத்தான்: குழில் வைத்து.."

Above is a passage is from the first Tamil Printed book " Thambiran Vanakkam" (தம்பிரான் வணக்கம்) printed in India in 1578. It is a matter of record Tamil was the first non-European Language to be printed in movable type. The credit should go to the untiring efforts of a Portuguese Jesuit Priest Fr.Anrique Anriquez (1520–1600) better known as Fr.Henrique Henriques, who spent most of his life in missionary activities among Paravars in South India. He strongly believed that books of religious doctrines should be in local languages and to this end he wrote books in Tamil. The first such book printed in Tamil Script was Thambiran Vanakkam (தம்பிரான் வணக்கம்) (1578), a 16-page translation of the Portuguese “Doctrina Christam”. It was followed byKirisithiyaani Vanakkam (கிரிசித்தியானி வணக்கம்)(1579). These were works of catechism, containing the basic prayers of Catholicism. Before this ‘Cartilha’, a Tamil prayer book printed using Latin script, was printed in Lisbon by command of the King of Portugal and financed by the Paravar Christians community of Tuticorin, who also helped with scholarly assistance. The first known Tamil typeset for printing was cast in 1577 at Goa by a Spanish Jesuit Fr Juan Gonsalvez "who succeeded in makingMalauar (Tamil) printing press". The first Tamil Book "Tambiranvanakkam" was printed in this Printing Press at Kollam, Malabar.
Fr Henrique Henriques is sometimes called The Father of the Tamil Press. After his death his mortal remains were buried in Our Lady of Snows Basilica in Tuticorin, India.

Brahmanyan
Bangalore

 

[Brahmanyan]

Rev. Fr. Roberto de Nobili - A Catholic Brahmin !

Roberto de Nobili (1577- 1656)

I wish to share information about Rev Fr. Roberto de Nobili who spent many years to propagate Christianity among the Tamils.

Roberto de Nobili was an Italian Jesuit born in Montepulciano, Tuscany, in September,1577. He was the first son of a nobleman, a general in the papal army. After his father's demise at the age of seventeen Roberto chose to join the Society of Jesus founded by Ignatious Loyola, in spite of opposition from his family,which had contributed numerous clerics to the Church , including several Cardinals and at two Popes.Thus in 1596, ignoring his family's wishes, he entered the Jesuit novitiate with the intention of becoming a foreign missionary. After a brilliant course of studies he sailed for the Indian mission in October, 1604, arriving at Goa on 20 May, 1605.

After a short stay at Cochin and among the fishermen in coramandal Coast, he moved in November, 1606, to Madurai, great cultural center of Tamils ruled by Telugu Nayaks, patrons of Vedic learning and Hinduism. Here he spent close to next fifty years in the service of his Lord.The policy of Portuguese clergy until then was to try and achieve to increase the number of converts, by conversion of the downtrodden lower classes to Christianity, sometimes forcefully, hardly making contacts with the upper castes. They set strict rules after conversions, getting the new recruits to eat meat, change their entire ways of life etc which earned them no good will, the converts were still considered lower class. The revised priority in India, therefore for the Jesuits, was to free Hindus from the stranglehold of the Brahmins as set by St Xavier. The resident Jesuit priest in Madurai was making not much headway with conversions and not a single Brahmin could be converted thus far. Instead the Portuguese and their Priests earned the sobriquet of Pirangis or Firangis, unclean white-men, bracketed with lower class people.

Soon, Fr.Roberto de Nobili understood the iron bound Caste system that held the Hindu society strongly. As a result, he decided to move ahead and accept the restrictions of caste and refuse to condemn any social custom or idea in this regard. First, he tried to ally the fear that he was a Portuguese (Pirangi) Priest, but a holy man from Italy like a Brahmin in India.. He moved from the missionary compound into a house in the Brahmin quarter of the city and shaved his head and sported a tuft of hair. He spoke only Tamil, hired a Brahmin cook and houseboy, and became a vegetarian. Like many Brahmins, Roberto de Nobili limited himself to one meal a day. He abandoned the black cassock and leather wear of the Jesuits for a saffron robe and wooden clogs. He put sandalwood paste on his forehead to like a Brahmin priest and even wore sacred thread across his shoulder for some time, as a sign of his caste rank.. He referred to himself as an ascetic or a sannyasi. Eventually, he preferred the company of Brahmins and even ate only with them. He bathed daily and cleansed himself ceremonially before saying mass. Thus it looked, instead of converting Brahmins, he converted himself as a Brahmin !

With the help of his scholarly Brahmin associate in the School run by Catholics, he learnt Sanskrit, Tamil and Telugu. In two years he mastered these languages to the extend of conversing fluently in Tamil and Telugu, and studying Sacred Texts of Vedas and Upanishads. Perhaps de Nobili was the " first European to study those venerable classics". In 1613 de Nobili wrote a detailed treatise on Hindu customs, and importance of careful adaptation of missionary methods, "Preaching Wisdom to the Wise- Three Treatises by Roberto de Nobili" which his Portuguese Jesuit superiors disagreed. However in 1623 Pope Gregory XV issued a papal document, that largely approved de Nobili's approach. Through the next forty-five years he wrote over twenty volumes of Catholic teachings in Sanskrit and Tamil.

Roberto de Nobili was a polyglot well versed in fourteen languages. "He composed Catechisms, apologetic works and philosophic discourses in Tamil, and contributed greatly to the development of modern Tamil prose writing". "As he expounded the Christian doctrine in Tamil he coined several words to communicate his message. He used the word "Kovil" (கோவில்) for a place of worship, "arul" (அருள்) and "prasadam" "(பிரசாதம்) for grace, "guru" (குரு) for priest or teacher, "Vedam" (வேதம்) for the Bible, "poosai" (பூசை) for Mass, etc".

Regarding number of Brahmin converts by de Nobili, there are different numbers given in books. But it was not significant. The reason as one author said, by getting converted, Brahmins viewed that they gain nothing. They enjoy status in society, looked after well by the rulers and the rich. Then why should they convert themselves to a new religion.

During his final years Roberto de Nobili courted many controversies and banished to Jaffna, where he had lost much of his eye sight. Eventually the Church refused to allow him back to his favorite Madurai, instead sent to San Thome, Mylapore, Madras, where after spending eight years as a broken, penniless and blind man Rev.Fr.Roberto de Nobili, the Count of Civitella died in the year 1656. His tomb is not identified till now.

(Copied from my Blog Brahmanyan)

Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.

 

[Janaki Jambunathan]

Copied from from one of the mails received years ago - after spending a lot of time on digging it out! This was a long letter but retrieving only relevant portions - his Yesur Veda & Romaca Brahmana!

Nobili’s teachings did not go all plain sailing. When a large assembly of 800 Brahmins once demanded his expulsion from Madurai, Nobili defended himself, saying that he was not a Parangi, but a ‘Twice born’ sanyasi from Rome, and that the version of religion he taught did not abolish the caste system. To lend credibility, he produced a certificate from Rome that called him a ‘Romaca Brahmana”. A version of this was also nailed to the door of his house. He went on to say ( apparently) that he was a descendant of Brahma and that he was in possession of the lost 5th Veda, the Yesurveda or Veda of Yesu (Jesus) and that his teachings were based upon that scripture. Sivadharma, his Brahmin teacher then defended him strongly at the meeting and this proved the clincher. Nobili remained in Madurai and preached his Yesur Veda for the next few decades.

Today these methods, or better put tactics of conversion by deception, are being employed quiet brilliantly by some christian missions. Their success rates are said to be better than Nobili since the intellectual defense within the Hindu community has weakened significantly with the withering of the Brahminical spirit across a great part India.

 

[Brahmanyan]

Copied from from one of the mails received years ago - after spending a lot of time on digging it out! This was a long letter but retrieving only relevant portions - his Yesur Veda & Romaca Brahmana!

Nobili’s teachings did not go all plain sailing. When a large assembly of 800 Brahmins once demanded his expulsion from Madurai, Nobili defended himself, saying that he was not a Parangi, but a ‘Twice born’ sanyasi from Rome, and that the version of religion he taught did not abolish the caste system. To lend credibility, he produced a certificate from Rome that called him a ‘Romaca Brahmana”. A version of this was also nailed to the door of his house. He went on to say ( apparently) that he was a descendant of Brahma and that he was in possession of the lost 5th Veda, the Yesurveda or Veda of Yesu (Jesus) and that his teachings were based upon that scripture. Sivadharma, his Brahmin teacher then defended him strongly at the meeting and this proved the clincher. Nobili remained in Madurai and preached his Yesur Veda for the next few decades.

Today these methods, or better put tactics of conversion by deception, are being employed quiet brilliantly by some christian missions. Their success rates are said to be better than Nobili since the intellectual defense within the Hindu community has weakened significantly with the withering of the Brahminical spirit across a great part India.

Before writing my Blog on Rev. Fr. de Nobili, I have gone through many informative materials about this Jesuit father who wanted to spread the message of Jesus to Brahmins.
But he couldn't convert many from the Tamil Brahmins. But similar attempts by Portuguese clergy in west coast Malabar, Mangalore and Goa were of some marginal success. We can see the brahmin surnames retained even today.

Brahmanyan
Bangalore.

 

[CHANDRU1849]

Of late, suddenly Hinduism has been facing multiple attacks from Abrahamic Religions, adopting different methods. They are getting wide support from rationalists and leftists. These two groups are strong in criticizing Hinduism, they are not so in the case of other religions, and even sometimes approve their activities.

Is Hinduism losing out in Tamil Nadu slowly. Unfortunately it looks so.

 

[prasad1]

I respect Chandruji, Vganeji, and others, I am sure they feel that it is real problem.

This topic of conversion keeps coming up.
Is coerced conversion and enticed conversion same?
Can an individual make a decision, however stupid it may sound to others?

Should there be a free will to choose a religion?

There was one case reported and documented BUT was not proven.

In 2009, the Assam Times reported that a group of militants with about 15 members calling themselves the Manmasi National Christian Army tried to force Hindu residents of Bhuvan Pahar to convert to Christianity.

I know people keep posting comments about forced conversion in India, particularly in RSS/BJP mouthpieces and social media.

PLEASE PROVE IT, or stop posting falsehood.

Show me Court cases, or even credible reporting of Christian missionaries converting forcibly.

I did not like Mother Theresa in her time, she did conduct some Christian rites to dying Lepers.
But we the Hindus forgot about them, and shunned them out of our homes and society, what right we have to cry about conversions?

But on reading about her (mother T) she really was an angel to those people.

 

[prasad1]

“In the near future, the Muslim population of India will exceed the number of Muslims in Indonesia and Pakistan, which will result in a cultural and social imbalance of the Hindu nation,” read Shiv Sena president Uddhav Thackeray’s editorial in party newspaper Saamna.

This is what Thackeray, head of the Hindu right-wing party is referring to: “The Future of World Religions”, the latest report released by PEW, a global research organization.


Source: PEW research

By 2050, India’s Muslim population will rise to 18.2% from 14% in 2010, the report said. In numbers, India will have 311 million Muslims, more indeed than Indonesia and Pakistan, but what Thackeray does not say is that by this time the Hindu population will rise to 1.2 billion, or 77%, down no more than 3% over 40 years.

In 2010, Hindus were 80% of India’s population or 973 million, said the Pew report. The 2011 Indian census has compiled the country’s religious composition but has not released it.

Population increases are linked to fertility rates, the average number of children born over a lifetime.

The fertility rate for Indian Muslim women fell from 4.1 in 2001 to 3.2 in 2010 and is expected to be 2.1 by 2050.


Source: PEW research

Hindu fertility rates are 2.5, expected to fall to 1.9 by 2050, below the replacement level of 2.1.

However, Hindus are younger, on average, than the global population. So, combined with an increase in life expectancy, the Hindu population will rise even with below-replacement fertility, the Pew report said.

http://factchecker.in/the-myth-of-indias-muslim-population-rise/

 

[CHANDRU1849]

I respect Chandruji, Vganeji, and others, I am sure they feel that it is real problem.

This topic of conversion keeps coming up.
Is coerced conversion and enticed conversion same?
Can an individual make a decision, however stupid it may sound to others?

Should there be a free will to choose a religion?

There was one case reported and documented BUT was not proven.



I know people keep posting comments about forced conversion in India, particularly in RSS/BJP mouthpieces and social media.

PLEASE PROVE IT, or stop posting falsehood.

Show me Court cases, or even credible reporting of Christian missionaries converting forcibly.

I did not like Mother Theresa in her time, she did conduct some Christian rites to dying Lepers.
But we the Hindus forgot about them, and shunned them out of our homes and society, what right we have to cry about conversions?

But on reading about her (mother T) she really was an angel to those people.

You cannot prove forceful conversion. Of course, conversion is, indeed, taking place.

I have come across this in couple of instances:

1. The participants in some of the programs of Solvathallam Unmai, openly made references about change of religion especially moving towards Christianity. Even in program, the organizer Lakshmi Ramakrishnan, openly asked one convert, whether the status has changed and the reply was not very firm.

2. Of late, it becomes a practice in Chennai to print posters whenever a person dies. In some cases, there are two names - first invariably a Hindu name and the second one a Christian - say - Mariammal (a) Elizabeth. Ramesh (a) Joseph.

Evangelism is taking deep route in Chennai and the recent one is in Luz Corner.

Poor especially needy are being targeted to change religion, which is certainly happening.

 

[Vaagmi]

The following is an excerpt from The Times of India Chennai Edition of today. It may have a lesson for us in India:

Austria to shut down seven mosques, expel foreign-funded imams.

Berlin: Austria's Government said on Friday that it is closin g seven mosques and plans to expelImams in a crackdown on "political Islam" and foreign financing of religious groups.

Chancellor Sebastian Kurz said the Government is shutting a hardline Turkish nationalist mosque in Vienna and dissolving a group called the Arab Religious Community that runs the six mosques.

The action b y the Government is based on a 2015 law that, among other things, prevents religious communities from getting funding from abroad Interior Minister Herbert Kicki said the residence permits of around 40 imams employed by ATIB a group that overseesTurkish mosques in Austria,are being reviewed because of concerns about such financing.

Kicki said that in two cases permits have already been revoked. Five more Imams were denied first time permits.

Austria's move angered the Government in Turkey where the president of Turkey said the decision is "a reflection of the islamophobic, racist and discriminatory wave in Austria".

For an Indian the accusations of Turkey sounds very familiar because we keep hearing this nonsense here very often from the so called "Leftist intellectuals"

 

[mkrishna100]

Conversion is an Act of Violence
by Swami Dayananda Saraswati


Aggressive religions have no God-given right
to destroy ancient faiths and cultures
http://www.swamij.com/conversion-violence.htm

 

[prasad1]

[h=1]Cried wolf too many times??[/h]
We have our own Islamaphobe we do not have to Import Austrian.

Of Austria’s 8.8 million people, around 600,000 are Muslims, many of them of Turkish descent. One of the Islamic groups targeted is the Turkish-Islamic Union for Cultural and Social Cooperation in Austria, which has close ties to the Turkish government.

In India, the Muslim population is 172 million.

Go figure.

It is easy to create a false boogyman, so the so-called savior Hero can "rid" us of this "menace".

 

[prasad1]

You cannot prove forceful conversion. Of course, conversion is, indeed, taking place.

I have come across this in couple of instances:

1. The participants in some of the programs of Solvathallam Unmai, openly made references about change of religion especially moving towards Christianity. Even in program, the organizer Lakshmi Ramakrishnan, openly asked one convert, whether the status has changed and the reply was not very firm.

2. Of late, it becomes a practice in Chennai to print posters whenever a person dies. In some cases, there are two names - first invariably a Hindu name and the second one a Christian - say - Mariammal (a) Elizabeth. Ramesh (a) Joseph.

Evangelism is taking deep route in Chennai and the recent one is in Luz Corner.

Poor especially needy are being targeted to change religion, which is certainly happening.

Enticing people to do anything is normal, and as long as it is legal nothing can (or should) be done.
If you do not like a policy, there is a legal way to effect change.

Yes, people convert from one religion to another, just like changing a political party affiliation.
That is legal. Are people enticed to do it, just look around you, it is that common?
If my neighbor converts from Christianity to Hinduism, will it change my future or that of my religion?
NO NO NO.

 

[Brahmanyan]

Whenever I read about "Hinduism" dwindling in numbers due to conversions by Abrahamic religions, which means Semitic religions, I get confused. What exactly we mean by "Hinduism", is it a religion? If so who is to define about this "Hinduism", the word coined by outsiders to identify the practices of people they called as "Hindu" living by the side of River Sindhu. This word "Hindu" is not found in the ancient scriptures including "Vedas".
We have discussed about this many time in this forum.
There is no legal definition for the word "Hindu or Hinduism".
Senior Lawyer Mr. Ram Jethmalani in his well analysed article on "Hindutva" says --
"Since the term "Hindu religion" denotes all the religions of India together, Shaivism, Vaishnavism, Tantrism, Shaktism, etc., each with different doctrines, often contrary to one another, it could not refer to any one single religion".-
Does this mean no one can convert himself from one religious thought to another. Nothing prevents this, except done under "duress".
If we brushup our History we will find entire community ruled by Kings got converted when the ruler changes his "religion". This has happened all over the country. Very much in Dravidian Region ruled by Rashtrakootas, Chalukya, Pallavas, Chola, Pandya and Cheras as well. Jainism and Buddhism were prevalent for more than two centuries ( 5th and 6th centuries). That great scholar of Buddhism Nagarjuna was from Andhra. Few months ago my son took me to a place called Yerragudi near Gooty in Kurnool District to see Emperor Ashoka's edict carved in a Hillock. Emperor Ashoka sent his son and daughter to Sri Lanka to spread the message of Buddha. Similarly Pallavas, Cholas spread the message of Vedas and Agamas to Countries in South East Asia and established great kingdoms.

The Cheraman Peruman of Kodungallur, allowed migrant Syrian Christians, Jews and Muslims to settle down in Malabar, even granted them lands to build their places of worship.

Interestingly the Syrian Christians do not allow or involve in conversion as a mark of principle. They claim themselves as original Christians from Nazareth and call themselves Nasranis.

"Being a Syrian Christian is a matter of birth and inherited religious convictions. Therefore, conversion to that community is an anomaly. In all its known history till the 20c, the Malabar Church never undertook any missionary work. The theology of the community was that every human being achieved salvation through his own religion; a conclusion that modern Christian theology is increasingly accepting."
(From Parayil A.Tharakan's Blog).

Similarly in our own time conversion and reconversion to our thoughts and way of living taking place under the guidance of organisations like Arya Samaj, ISKCON, R K Mutt, etc.

It is my personal view, exchange of thoughts and refinement of culture will continue among the human society, which cannot be stopped.
This is a vast subject, which needs I depth study and discussion.

Brahmanyan
Bangalore.

 

[Janaki Jambunathan]

If "Thulukans " are to be sent back to Turkey - Where will Ariyans have to go? Back to Central Asia!

 

[prasad1]

Whenever I read about "Hinduism" dwindling in numbers due to conversions by Abrahamic religions, which means Semitic religions, I get confused.
Similarly in our own time conversion and reconversion to our thoughts and way of living taking place under the guidance of organisations like Arya Samaj, ISKCON, R K Mutt, etc.

It is my personal view, exchange of thoughts and refinement of culture will continue among the human society, which cannot be stopped.
This is a vast subject, which needs I depth study and discussion.

Brahmanyan
Bangalore.

Thank you, sir, for a well-written post.
I agree with your POV.
I am not a scholar, but we need to counter the narrative of Islamaphobia, that will tear India apart.
These postings (most of them are crying wolf too many times) are baseless but gnaws at the basic fiber of India. The totally baseless charges are perpetuated to scare the average person.
It helps the politicians to polarize the voters, but in the long run, will hurt the country.

 

[CHANDRU1849]

If "Thulukans " are to be sent back to Turkey - Where will Ariyans have to go? Back to Central Asia!

Can you please tell where will Tamilians go? It is said Indus Valley Civilization was Tamil.