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QuickRef: The Institution of Caste in India: Positive Aspects

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saidevo

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This thread is a collection of points on how caste was never a system of oppression or backwardness in India, until the time of the British rule, and how the system has secured and sustained the Hindu religious, traditional and cultural roots.

Members may add their points that subscribe to the positive aspects of the institution of caste.

Dharampal in his 'Rediscovering India'
Rediscovering India By Dharampal::Dharampal` Writings

• Yet, according to their traditions, especially traditions which particular castes or tribes subscribe to, each such caste had a uniquely divine origin. According to anthropological theory, castes have largely grown out of earlier tribal groups and in course of time though not fully integrated in the larger body politic have yet accepted its norms and belief structure.

• In recent centuries to these castes and tribes have been added yet other newly formed groups by the religious conversion of some of the Indian people to the religions of Islam and Christianity.

• Besides there has been a sprinkling of people from other areas who at one time or another have migrated into India, and while keeping to their own customs have made India their home.

• But while castes and tribes have always existed in India and continue to exist today, never before in history do they seem to have posed a major problem. Historically they have existed side by side, they have interacted amongst themselves, groups of them have even had ritual or real fights with each other as the Right-hand and Left-hand caste groupings had in southern India till the beginning of the nineteenth century.

• Contrary to accepted assumptions, and perhaps to Manusmritic law, at least when the British began to conquer India, the majority of the rajas in different parts of India had also been from amongst such castes which have been placed in the sudra varna.

• Incidentally, it may be worth noting that those included amongst the Brahmin, kshtriya, and vaisya varnas, at least in recent times, have together constituted only a small minority (12 per cent to 15 per cent) of the Hindus.

• It is possible that the existence of separate castes and tribes have historically been responsible for the relative weakness of Indian polity. Yet it can, perhaps also be argued that the existence of caste has added to the tenacity of Indian society, to its capacity to survive and after lying low to be able to stand up again.

• Under what circumstances and what arrangements castes (and for that matter tribes) are divisive of Indian society or a factor leading to its cohesion are questions which still have no conclusive answer.

• In fact, the questions perhaps have not even been posed. For the British, as perhaps for some others before them, caste has been a great obstacle, in fact, an unmitigated evil not because the British believed in castelessness or subscribed to non-hierarchical system but because it stood in the way of their breaking Indian society, hindered the process of atomization, and made the task of conquest and governance more difficult.

The present fury and the theoretical formulations against the organization of Indian society into castes, whatever the justification or otherwise of caste today, thus begins with British rule.

• Simultaneous to the stigmatizing of caste as an evil, the requirements of conquest, and perhaps also a similarity in classification, attracted the British to the Manusmriti and gave scholarly and legal support to some of its provisions, including those relating to the varnas.

• A major result of it was to provide validity and traditional sanction to the virtual dispossession of an overwhelming proportion of the Indian people from property or occupancy rights in hand and taking away their rights in the management of innumerable cultural and religious institutions which they had hitherto managed.

• Further, it also led to the erosion of the flexibility of customs which existed amongst most of the castes, and made them feel degraded to the extent they deviated from brahamanical practice.

• The listing of the castes in a rigid hierarchical order was another result of this latter approach. The earlier relationship and balance amongst the castes was thus wholly disrupted.

• Backwardness like the term "barbarians" is an imagery which one applies to others, to aliens who prove weaker and who do not subscribe to one’s own cultural norms. To morally justify the conquest, or subjection, or annihilation of others, recourse is then taken to terms like "backwardness", and when the people so termed, themselves begin mentally to subscribe to such imagery it implies that the process of subjugation of such people has been completed and that they have lost dignity in their own eyes.

While there can be some controversy about the prosperity or poverty of the Indian people, or any segments of them during the sixteen, seventeenth, and eighteenth centuries, the term backwardness does not in any sense apply to them then.

• Rather, it was the newly arrived Europeans in India who felt that the Indians applied such an appellation to them (the Europeans) for their manners and greed which were considered barbaric and uncouth, about the color of their skin which was thought to be diseased, or even the system of dowry which is said to have originated in eighteenth century England, but to have been looked askance in eighteenth century India.

• By the end of the eighteenth century when large parts of India had effectively been conquered and subdued the tide obviously changed and instead the term "backwardness" or images of similar nature began to be deliberately and extensively applied to Indian society.

A detailed survey was carried out in 1822-25 in the Madras Presidency (i.e. the present Tamil Nadu, the major part of the present Andhra Pradesh, and some districts of the present Karnataka, Kerala and Orissa). The survey indicated that 11,575 schools and 1,094 colleges were still then in existence in the Presidency and that the number of students in them were 1,57,195 and 5,431 respectively. The more surprising information, which this survey provided, is with regard to the broader caste composition of the students in the schools.

• According to it, those belonging to the sudras and castes below formed 70 per cent to 80 per cent of the total students in the Tamil speaking areas, 62 per cent in the Oriya areas, 54 per cent in the Malayalam speaking areas, and 35 per cent to 40 per cent in the Telugu speaking areas.

If one looks deep enough, corresponding images of other aspects of Indian life and society emerge from similar British records of the late eighteenth and the early nineteenth century. Those indicate not only a complex structure of science and technology (according to tests carried out by the British, the best steel in the world during this period was produced by relatively portable steel furnaces in India, and inoculation against small-pox was a widely-extended Indian practice) but also the sophisticated organizational structure of Indian society.

• According to Mr. Alexander Read, later the originator of the Madras land revenue system, the only thing which seemed to distinguish the nobility from their servants in Hyderabad around 1780 was that the clothes of the former were more clean.

*****

Aurobindo in his 'India's Rebirth':
http://www.esamskriti.com/essay-chapters/India`s-Rebirth-by-Sri-Aurobindo-1.aspx

• There is no doubt that the institution of caste degenerated. It ceased to be determined by spiritual qualifications, which, once essential, have now come to be subordinate and even immaterial and is determined by the purely material tests of occupation and birth.

• By this change it has set itself against the fundamental tendency of Hinduism which is to insist on the spiritual and subordinate the material and thus lost most of its meaning. The spirit of caste arrogance, exclusiveness and superiority came to dominate it instead of the spirit of duty, and the change weakened the nation and helped to reduce us to our present conditions.

*****

From 'Life And Thoughts Of Swami Vivekananda':
Life And Thoughts Of Swami Vivekananda::Great Indian Leaders

• Solution to caste problems:
The other caste must remember that if they remain backward, it is only because they sat down lazily and let the Brahmanas win the race. Instead of wasting their energies in quarrels, let them absorb the culture of the Brahmanas by taking to Sanskrit education because Sanskrit and prestige go together in India.

• Benefits of caste system
It is owing to caste that 300 million people can find a peace of bread to eat. It is an imperfect institution no doubt. But if it had not been for caste, you would have had no Sanskrit books to study. This caste made walls, around which all sorts of invasions rolled and surged but found it impossible to breakthrough.

*****

When Caste Was Not A Bad Word

When Caste Was Not A Bad Word::What Hindus Need To Know

Were caste equations always as bad as they are today? Not quite. There were always castes but they were not backward.

• The interest in caste peaked around 1891 when the census came out with what were termed as Index of Castes. The word ‘caste’ is of Spanish origin and fails to capture the meaning of the Indian term, "jati," which more properly translated as "community."

• Jati in traditional India promoted and preserved diversity and multiculturalism by allotting every jati a particular space and role in society so that no jati would be appropriated or dominated by another.

• America, which has long glorified the ideal of a "melting pot" of one assimilated culture, is now coming to see the value of the "salad bowl" model, in which different cultures co-exist in harmony. The epitome of this model was the Indian jati system, revealing that our ancient practices are relevant to the modern world.

• Moreover, the jati system was integral to the survival of the Indian nation: in Swami Vivekananda’s words: "Caste is an imperfect institution no doubt. But if it had not been for caste, you would have had no Sanskrit books to study. This caste made walls, around which all sorts of invasions rolled and surged but found it impossible to breakthrough."

*****
 
This thread is a collection of points on how caste was never a system of oppression or backwardness in India, until the time of the British rule, and how the system has secured and sustained the Hindu religious, traditional and cultural roots.
*****

The world has changed a lot since the time of Vivekananda and Aurobindo. :sad:

Rightly or wrongly, the word 'caste' today brings up negative emotions in most people except when they are in search of educational or job opportunities. Today one needs to use different words that have become accepted and popular in the world at large. The brahmincal practices of not eating meat, living in coexistence with nature and so on must be presented as 'healthy lifestyle changes', 'environmentalism' etc. :nod:

Otherwise you could be criticised as being in favour of oppression. :censored:
 
This thread is a collection of points on how caste was never a system of oppression or backwardness in India, until the time of the British rule, and how the system has secured and sustained the Hindu religious, traditional and cultural roots.


Folks, this is an example how some in the upper caste are still unable to come to terms with the oppressive caste system. Let me provide several examples of how the above claim is utterly false.

[1] Manu Darmashasthra, which many revere as gleanings straight from the Vedas, is a field manual of oppression, for upper caste male domination of everyone else. This text existed long before there was even a language called English.

[2] The story of Nandanar clearly illustrates how Dalits were treated during that time. Even if one accepts that Nandanar was saved after he underwent the fire ordeal, what about all the other scores of Dalits who were not that pious? They were continuing to suffer, isn't? During the time of this story England was probably a land of nomads.

[3] The story of Thiruppanazhvar is another illustration of how ordinary Dalits were treated unless there was some sort of "divine" intervention. During this time the people living in the geographical area we now call England probably had no idea of any land mass called India.

[4] The azhvar poetry and acharya bios beseech us to rise above caste differences. If it was such a benign system with everyone living in perfect harmony and bliss, why tell us that we will become chandala if we think ill of other bhakthas simply because they were born into lowly castes?

[5] There are stories from Ramayana and Mahabharatha that tell us how some shudras were treated. This was the time when probably even the Roman empire was not in England.

Folks, many people from all castes, Brahmin and NBs alike, fought against caste system in the past. All of them failed in their attempts. There is no harm in an honest assessment of the past. The object, at least from my side, is not to pin blame, but to take responsibility, something like truth and reconciliation. For this to happen, we must not allow anyone to whitewash the past. We will only add to the respect of our forefathers if we acted in an upright and compassionate manner.

Cheers!
 
Shri Nara, this thread is started to list the positives of varna/jati; if you do not find anything to contribute towards that aim, it is better not to insert your negative perceptions on the same...

Think most, in this forum, know where you stand on the above....
Folks, this is an example how some in the upper caste are still unable to come to terms with the oppressive caste system. Let me provide several examples of how the above claim is utterly false.

[1] Manu Darmashasthra, ................... The object, at least from my side, is not to pin blame, but to take responsibility, something like truth and reconciliation. For this to happen, we must not allow anyone to whitewash the past. We will only add to the respect of our forefathers if we acted in an upright and compassionate manner.
Sir, if varna is such an abomination, then the very acharyas who have given us great philosophies would have said in so many plain words. When we compare your coloured words against those of the acharyas, is it not a wiser choice to go by what the greats have said? And by the parampara that has been established...?

The Lord himself says that one must do one's varna dharma...

--------------------------------------

Illtreatment is a totally different aspect by itself; if one uses a language to abuse another, or to convey peace and love.... the fault is not that of the language, rather in the mind of the individual. Of course, you are prone to disagree with it.

And your conclusion that there is something to repent BECAUSE of varnasrama is totally illogical and wrong. If that were the case, then there should be peace and happiness all around the world except for where sanatana dharma is practiced.... Take a good look around you sir... is it so? It is the human mind that is the abomination, for all the evils.

You are simply attempting to condition the mind, focussing on only a few aspects while hiding the fact that it is a natural byproduct of any system (or even when there is no system).

For one who does not believe in karma and its effects on the jiva, it is a futile exercise to proceed further on this matter.

I rest my case.

Regards,
 
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...For one who does not believe in karma and its effects on the jiva, it is a futile exercise to proceed further on this matter.

Dear Saptha, yes, we do have profound disagreement and I am happy to leave it at that. I have no problem with stating positive things if you see any. I have no quarrel with you.

I jumped in only because of the claim it is the fault of the British. British are to blame for a lot of things, no doubt. But not for something that was written down and criticized by our own forefathers at least 1000 years ago.

peace ....
 
Sri.Sapthajihva said:-

Shri Nara, this thread is started to list the positives of varna/jati; if you do not find anything to contribute towards that aim, it is better not to insert your negative perceptions on the same...

Think most, in this forum, know where you stand on the above....

Greetings Sri.Sapthajihva. In my very humble opinion, the negative aspects of the caste system should be voiced whenever we talk about caste system. The 'positive effects of a caste system' posted here are only opinions. Any thread without high lighting the negative effects of caste system will mislead. For example, my children have no idea about caste system in detail; but they know I and my wife do not give any credibility to caste system. In that context, should they read an uncontested thread about the 'positive aspects of caste system', they may be misguided. என்னதான் துடைப்ப கட்டைக்கு பட்டு குஞ்சலம் கட்டி அலங்காரம் செய்தாலும், துடைப்பம் துடைப்பம்தான். Sri.Nara called it correctly. எத்தனை முறை வேதாளம் முருங்கை மரம் ஏறினால் என்ன? ஒவ்வொரு முறையும் அது கட்டப்படுகிறது.......

Cheers!
 
Greetings Shri Raghy,

There are voices only for highlighting the negatives of the varna system in our society. So most individuals, even before they learn to judge things unequivocally, are biased towards the very name 'caste'.

In this aspect, it is better if one sees things in the right perspective. I am not even getting into whether there is a postive/negative side to caste.

And that perspective requires understanding and acceptance of the vedas and shastras, without which, all other understanding is in vain; and most probably, for free-thinkers, that would indeed, ring a different tone.

In that context, should they read an uncontested thread about the 'positive aspects of caste system'
There need not be a dispute or debate in all threads; when you have your freedom to dispute varna, in a brahmin forum, in 99% of the threads, why not exclude this lone thread? Why hijack this too?

It is akin to a person not bothering about his freedom, but rather dissatisfied with the freedom of the other.

Regards,

P.S. No personal offence meant. If any of my words are harsh, they are not intentional.
 
Sri. Sathajhiva asked:-

There need not be a dispute or debate in all threads; when you have your freedom to dispute varna, in a brahmin forum, in 99% of the threads, why not exclude this lone thread? Why hijack this too?

Sri. Sathajhiva,

Greetings. You have put forward a very valid question. You are right; we need not debate in every thread. I don't have such intentions either. As you rightly suggested, I may go to a different thread to put my case forward. I just wanted to put forward that there is one more side to the same coin...Having done that, I am off!

Cheers!
 
namaste everyone.

People perhaps did not notice the 'QuickRef' in the title of this thread. My intention in this thread is to collect points about the positive aspects of the institution of caste that has been prevalent right from the SanghakAlam, 2000 years ago, in the ancient Indian society, so this thread may serve as a quick reference to anyone to use the points in his/her posts and discussions.

To what extent I support the varNa and caste system and approve of the aspersions cast on the system for the frivolities of human mind and frailties of human nature--as sapthajihva has rightly pointed out in his post no.5--is entirely another issue.

As regards Raghy's argument that we should discuss the negative aspects too when we discuss the positives, the same logic should apply to:

• discussions of science: when we showcase the achievements of science, do we talk about the ills it has wrought on the human society, animal and mineral kingdom, and Nature as a whole?

• discussions about money: money, which is the most indispensable means of sustenance in today's modern life, is often said to be the root (IMO also the route) of all evils, and yet when we talk about the achievements of modern welfare economy, we scarcely regard the negative aspect of money.

• why go that far? Man is basically egoistic and selfish--two highly negative aspects that have come to be adored as virtues in today's life. When we talk of human capabilities in spirituality, as exemplified by our great gurus, we say that it is a legacy of every human, without regard to his negative aspects.

Thus, by the nice examples Raghy has given that

• whatever decorations with plaits and ribbons we do to a broom-stick, it is still a broom-stick equally applies to science, money and man.

• whatever number of times the goblin goes up the drumstick tree, each time it is tied, unfortunately, does not apply to science, money and man--which is the reason for all the troubles in the world.

So, let us move on to look at the right perspectives...
 
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Excellent one, Sri. Saidevo. I give below what Western Indologists have said positively about the caste system.

Sir Sidney Low (1857-1932) in his book, A Vision of India: with a frontispiece says:

“There is no doubt that it (caste) is the main cause of the fundamental stability and contentment by which Indian society has been braced for centuries against the shocks of politics and the cataclysms of Nature. It provides every man with his place, his career, his occupations, his circle of friends. It makes him, at the outset, a member of a corporate body; it protects him through life from the canker of social jealousy and unfulfilled aspirations; it ensures him companionship and a sense of community with others in like case with himself. The caste organization is to the Hindu his club, his trade union, his benefit society, his philanthropic society. There are no work houses in India, and none are as yet needed. The obligation to provide for kinsfolk and friends in distress is universally acknowledged; nor can it be questioned that this is due to the recognition of the strength of family ties and of the bonds created by associations and common pursuits which is fostered by the caste principle. An India without caste, as things stand at present, it is not quite easy to imagine.”

William Robinson, author of By Temple Shrine and Lotus Pool, wrote on p. 66 of his book:

"The fortress of caste cannot be taken by external assault. Its wall will only crumble when the garrison within ceases to repair them. The only real discipline that India has maintained is the discipline of caste. If you really could create genuine democracy in India it would destroy caste. If it destroyed caste it would destroy Hinduism and if it destroyed Hinduism it would destroy India , at least the India that has existed for so many thousand of years… Far, far better that they remain good Hindus than become rampant atheists!"

Alain Danielou (1907-1994) author of several books, including History of India and Virtue, Success, Pleasure, & Liberation : The Four Aims of Life in the Tradition of Ancient India. writes:

"It is easy to see that despite all the national and linguistic barriers, even modern Western society is fundamentally, like all societies, a caste system. The problem of Western society derive from the fact that while proclaiming the equality of men, it is entirely graded on a hierarchical system as far as the professions are concerned. Under the pretext of equality, Western lawmakers do not let the various groups cooperate among themselves while keeping their different habits, ethics, and social life. Jews, Mormons, Muslims, Celts, Basques, Albigemsoams, Pygmies, Blacks or Inuits are accorded a relative equality only on condition that they conform to our customs, losing most of their social, national, and religious characteristics and in fact abandoning their own personality."

Mark Tully ( ? ) was the BBC correspondent in New Delhi and author of several books including No Full Stops in India and The Heart of India.

He points out:

"The alienation of many young people in the West and the loneliness of the old show the suffering that egalitarianism inflicts on those who do not win, the superficiality of an egalitarianism which in effect means equal opportunities for all to win and then ignores the inevitable losers. For all that, the elite of India have become so spellbound by egalitarianism that they are unable to see any good in the only institution which does provide a sense of identity and dignity to those who are robbed from birth of the opportunity to compete on an equal footing – CASTE. Caste is obnoxious to the egalitarian West, so it is obnoxious to the Indian elite too."

"The very fact that the institution of caste has survived about 3,000 years is a clear proof of the services which it must have rendered to the Hindu society in different periods of history. It is the caste system that has been largely responsible for the preservation of Hindu religion and culture. The caste brotherhoods, on account of their policy of exclusiveness, did not mix with the foreigners. So the Greeks, Huns or Muslims could not conquer Hindu culture. On the contrary, most of these foreigners were themselves absorbed into the Hindu fold."

(source: No Full Stops in India - By Mark Tully).

Michael Pym wrote : "Caste is the secret of that amazing stability which is characteristic of the Indian social structure. It is the strength of Hinduism. Naturally, it can be abused. The moment a Brahmin treats a sweeper cruelly because he is a sweeper, he departs from his Brahminhood. He becomes a usurper and a social danger. And in due course, he will have to pay for this mistake. Because men are imperfect, and because power is a deadly intoxicant, such abuses may and do occur, but they are not inherent in the institution – they are contrary to its principles, though they may be inherent in the make up of the individual.

Caste in itself is also a protection for the individual, because it permits group action. The reason why a Hindu dreads being outcaste is analogous to the reason why, in England say, a worker would dread being thrown out of his trade union.

(source: The Power of India - By Michael Pym p. 152- 153).

Dr. Koenraad Elst (1959 -) Dutch historian, born in Leuven, Belgium, on 7 August 1959, into a Flemish (i.e. Dutch-speaking Belgian) Catholic family. He graduated in Philosophy, Chinese Studies and Indo-Iranian Studies at the Catholic University of Leuven. He is the author of several books including The Saffron Swastika, Decolonising The Hindu Mind - Ideological Development of Hindu Revivalism and Negationism in India: Concealilng the Record of Islam

"The caste system is often portrayed as the ultimate horror. Inborn inequality is indeed unacceptable to us moderns, but this does not preclude that the system has also had its merits.

Caste is perceived as an "exclusion-from," but first of all it is a form of "belonging-to," a natural structure of solidarity. For this reason, Christian and Muslim missionaries found it very difficult to lure Hindus away from their communities.

Sometimes castes were collectively converted to Islam, and Pope Gregory XV (1621-23) decreed that the missionaries could tolerate caste distinction among Christian converts; but by and large, caste remained an effective hurdle to the destruction of Hinduism through conversion. That is why the missionaries started attacking the institution of caste and in particular the Brahmin caste. This propaganda has bloomed into a full-fledged anti-brahminism, the Indian equivalent of anti-Semitism."

Huston Smith (1919 - ) born in China to Methodist missionaries, a philosopher, most eloquent writer, world-famous religion scholar who practices Hatha Yoga. He has written various books, The World's Religions. He says:

Men and women that are lining the bathing ghats are all Hindus, but how different they are. But India looked past their bodies into their minds where she found the prolific ness of the infinite exploding like a Roman cantle.

No other civilization saw, appreciated, and classified so precisely the full spectrum of human personality types…an achievement that has earned for India – the title of the world’s introspective psychologist.

Jakob De Roover is at the Research Centre Vergelijkende Cultuurwetenschap, Ghent University, Belgium. He has observed that:

"When European scholars describe India , they tend to connect all ills and atrocities in that society to the nature of Indian culture. One links widow-burning, dowry murder, domestic violence, female infanticide and caste discrimination to ‘Hindu’ foundations. Europe also loves to celebrate Indian authors whose specialty is revealing the ‘dark underbelly’ of Indian society.

In contrast, social ills and atrocities in European societies are characterised as aberrations: racism, colonial genocide, the two World Wars, the Holocaust, sexual abuse, etc. are considered as acts that deviate from the true temper of European culture. This stance of cultural asymmetry has become the hidden premise of the European study of India."

(source: How Free Are We? - By Jakob De Roover).

Guy Sorman (1944 - ) visiting scholar at Hoover Institution at Stanford and the leader of new liberalism in France, states:

"Westerners tend to be perplexed and scandalized by the caste system but they forget that the aristocracy which ruled over Europe for a thousand years was a caste of sorts. The guilds of the Ancient Regime resembled Indian castes as they had existed initially, each caste corresponding to a particular trade." When it comes to marriage, in Europe as in India, one looks for a partner from among one's immediate social circle.

Till the Age of Enlightenment, castes were viewed with interest rather than revulsion. Some French travelers even felt that the caste system had a certain social utility. In 1777, when Desvaulx (1745 - 1825) wrote in his book:

"Indians are as attached to their caste as our gentlemen to theirs."

(source: Les indes florissantes - Robert Laffont 1991).

Sorman further said: "The authority of the caste is a check on the possible abuse of their power by the princes." There has never been a central authority capable of imposing a single language, religion or way of life on the myriad castes that constitute India.

It is for this very reason that in the past the Muslim and British conquerors and prozelytisers have had to curtail their ambitions.

"India, is the only great civilization not to have been devoured by the West." says Guy Sorman.

Caste system has also made Indians completely immune to the totalitarian temptations. Overturning Western prejudice, Guy Sorman sees in the caste system and polytheism not a curse but the stuff that forearms Indians against absolutism. It is perhaps thanks to castes, however archaic and oppressive they may be, that India, unlike China, has escaped from totalitarianism and the grip of a single state or a single party. It may be said that the endurance of the Brahmins in India has kept her elite intact, whereas in neighboring China the anti-intellectualism of communist peasants has completely wiped out the intelligentsia of that country. It was the Brahmins who, at the time of British colonization, introduced in India the first notions of public health and modern techniques in agriculture and industry.

Though caste as an ideology is unique to India, the caste spirit, both as a metaphor and social reality, seems widespread. It is the caste system which holds Indians together and has allowed eternal India to endure. Its religious bases was attacked by Islam and Christianity and since the 19th century both Indian and European reformers have not stopped harping on the social ills of the caste system. But nothing, neither socialism nor nationalism nor republican egalitarianism nor any other doctrine of Western origin, has managed to replace it.

(source: The Genius of India - By Guy Sorman ('Le Genie de l'Inde') Macmillan India Ltd. 2001. ISBN 0333 93600 0 p. xiii - 56-58).
 
Informative quotes, shrI Anand.

Some facts about the origin of the caste system in India

The British rulers propagated the myth of Arya and DrAviDa to divide and rule the Hindus, and large numbers of the Hindu commons, notables and intellectuals fell for it. Although now the myth of Aryan invasion on the supposed, pre-existing, Dravidian culture that was destroyed by the invasion of the Aryans stands completely refuted today, it still exists in the school textbooks prescribed by the pseudo-secular central and state governments in India. The vested interests prefer to keep both the educated children and the illiterate rustic ignorant of the reality of the history, for their own vile ends.

Arya and DrAviDa: Who is an Arya?

• In the Hindu ShAstras, the term Arya indicates nobility, and is not confined to the brAhmaNa varNa alone. Anyone who is an eminent follower of Hindu Dharma was an Arya.

Rig Veda 7.033.07 says:

trayaH kR^iNvanti bhuvaneShu retaH (1) tisraH prajA AryA jyotiragrAH(2) |
trayo gharmAsa uShasaM sachante (3) sarvA.N ittA.N anu vidurvasiShThAH (4) ||7.033.07||

7.33.7: It is the three that make the creative energy in the work (1). Three are the nations that are Aryan in whose front is the light (2). Three shining ones cling to the dawn (3). The VasiShthas know them all (4).

[Three nations: the three planes of anna, prANa, manas. Three in line 1: Energies of three planes.-
--Translation by Dr.R.L.Kashyap

‣ It is clear that the message of this Rig Vedic verse is that Aryans are people led by (the light of) divine grace.

‣ The word 'prajA' in Vedic parlance primarily means 'birth, procreation, propagation'(compare prajApati), although the word has the meanings 'citizen, children, family, race'.

‣ Perhaps by a deliberate mistranslation of 'prajA AryA--a citizen who is an AryA' as 'Arya prajA'--people ruled by Aryans, the British sought a basis for their invented AIT.

*****

Some other Hindu scriptural references to AryA include:

VAlmIki RAmAyaNa describes King RAma as

Arya sarva samashchaiva sadaiva priyadarshaNaH
An Aryan who worked for the equality of all, was dear to everyone.

‣ In the RAmAyaNa, the term Arya can also apply to RakShasas or to RAvaNa. In several instances, the VAnaras and RakShasas called themselves Arya.

‣ The monkey king SugrIva is called an Arya (Ram: 505102712) and he also speaks of his brother VAli as an Arya (Ram: 402402434).

‣ In another instance in the RAmAyaNa, RAvaNa regards himself and his ministers as Aryas (Ram: 600600512).

*****

• In the MahAbhArata, the terms Arya or AnArya are often applied to people according to their behaviour.

‣ DushAsana, who tried to disrobe DraupadI in the Kaurava court, is called an "AnArya" (Mbh:0020600253).

‣ Vidura, the son of a dAsI born from VyAsa, was the only person in the assembly whose behaviour is called "Arya", because he was the only one who openly protested when Draupadi was being disrobed by DushAsana.

‣ The PANDavas called themselves "AnArya" (Mbh:0071670471) when they killed Drona through deception.

‣ According to the Mahabharata, a person's behaviour (not wealth or learning) determines if he can be called an Arya. Also the whole Kuru clan was called as Arya .

*****

• In the Bhagavad GItA, BhagavAn KRShNa asks Arjuna:

kutastvA kashmalamidaM viShame samupasthitam |
anAryajuShTamasvargyamakIrtikaramarjuna ||2.2||

"Whence has come this faintheartedness upon you in this crisis? It does not befit a noble person, it will not lead to heaven, but will bring infamy, O Arjuna."

*****

• According to Amarakosha "An arya comes from a noble family, is civilzed, of good character and soft natured. (mahakula kulinarya sabhya sajjana sadhavah.)".

• The words ariya, ayya, ajja and aje are the distorted versions of the word Arya found in languages such as Pali and Prakriti. It has taken the form of "ji" in Hindi and "ayya" in Telugu, Tamil and Kannada. (also 'ayyan, ayyanAr, aiyar' in Tamil--sd)

• Aryaputra was a proud epithet used in ancient India to denote a person's noble origin. Those who did not belong to the group of Aryans were called anaryas. The word was also used to denote uncivilized or objectionable behavior. Aryavarta was the land where where the Aryans were supposed to have lived.

• The word 'Iranian' is also a distorted form of the word Aryan and was used to denote all the people who spoke Iranian languages during the period when the Zoroastrian Yashts texts were composed.

Aurobindo writes in 'Arya', September 1914:

‣ Indians know the word ('Arya'), but it has lost for them the significance which it bore to their forefathers. Western Philology has converted it into a racial term, an unknown ethnological quantity on which different speculations fix different values.

‣ Now, even among the philologists, some are beginning to recognise that the word in its original use expressed not a difference of race, but a difference of culture.

‣ For in the Veda the Aryan peoples are those who had accepted a particular type of self-culture, of inward and outward practice, of ideality, of aspiration. The Aryan gods were the supraphysical powers who assisted the mortal in his struggle towards the nature of the godhead. All the highest aspirations of the early human race, its noblest religious temper, its most idealistic varieties of thought are summed up in this single vocable.

‣ In later times, the word Arya expressed a particular ethical and social ideal, an ideal of well-governed life, candour, courtesy, nobility, straight dealing, courage, gentleness, purity, humanity, compassion, protection of the weak, liberality, observance of social duty, eagerness of knowledge, respect for the wise and learned, the social accomplishments. It was the combined ideal of the BrAhmaNa and the KShatriya.

Everything that departed from this ideal, everything that tended towards the ignoble, mean, obscure, rude, cruel or false, was termed un-Aryan or anArya (colloq. anAri). There is no word in human speech that has a nobler history.

‣ Intrinsically, in its most fundamental sense, Arya means an effort or an uprising and overcoming. The Aryan is he who strives and overcomes all outside him and within him that stands opposed to the human advance. Self-conquest is the first law of his nature.

Self-perfection is the aim of his self-conquest. Therefore, what he conquers he does not destroy, but ennobles and fulfils. ... The Aryan perfected is the Arhat.

Sources:
Arya - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Kshatriya - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://www.hinduwebsite.com/hinduism/concepts/arya.asp
Sri Aurobindo: The Arya: Its significance

*****

Arya and DrAviDa: What is DrAviDa?

• The term drAviDa in any of its forms is not found in the four Vedas. It is also not found in the ancient Hindu or Tamil texts as denoting a specific group of people; where it is found, it only denotes a specific region of BhAratam and people living therein.

• Most PurANas and the MahAbhArata mention DrAviDa, as one of the kingdoms in bhArata-varSha.

MahAbhArata states that SahAdeva, one of the PANDavas, sent a note for collecting taxes from the people of DrAviDa (sabhA parva, Chapter 31, Stanza 71). "There are other countries also in the southern BhArata such as DrAviDa, Kerala, Pracya, Muslka, Vanavasika Karnataka, Mahisaka, Vikalpa and Musaka." This statement (MBh. bhIShma parva, Chapter 9) throws light on the various countries which existed in South India at the time of Mahabharata.

• In Brihad SaMhihitA there comes a chapter (14) on all the nations around BhArat, explained as KUrma charka. It lists the countries direction-wise. In that, countries/places such as Kanchi, Simhala, Velluru, dandaka forest, river TamraparaNi, Kaveri, Mahendra mountain etc are clubbed together as found in the Southern direction along with "countries of Tamingilasana" (countries of Tamils, Cholas, Cherans and Pandyans?)

DrAviDa gets a mention separately among the countries in South west not south. DrAviDa comes after 'Hemagiri, Sindhukalaka, RAivataka, Suraashtra and BAdara.

• After the deluge that submerged KRShNa's city of DvAraka, people migrated towards the South and North. Those in the North called the people who migrated to South as the 'pancha DrAviDa' (comprising the present states Tamil, Kerala, Andhra, KarnATaka and MahArAShtra). RAjataraNginI, a KAshmIri literary work is among the earliest works to mention DrAviDa.

• Interestingly, some etymologists trace the derivation of the word 'DrAviDa' from 'Tamil' as below:

In ancient days the whole of South India was known by the name Tamilaka, as Tamil was the language used throughout South India. Strictly speaking, all the languages used in South India were given the name Tamil. The word 'Tamil' underwent changes in the language of North India and took the form 'DrAviDa'. Etymologists are of opinion that the changes that took place in the word Tamil were are follows: Tamil--Damil--Damid--Dramid--Dravid--Dravid. There are others who trace the origin of the word 'Tamil' from 'DrAviDa' in the reverse derivation.

• Nevertheless, there is no mention of the terms Dravid, Dravida, Dravidi, Dravidam, Damila, Dramila, Dravida, dravida and their derivatives in the Sangham Tamil Literature. TolkAppiyam calls the country between the 'vaDa vEngaDam'--VenkaTa hills in the North and 'then kumari'--KanyAkumari in the South, as 'Tamil kURum nallulagam'.

• While DevAram uses only 'Tamizhan', TAyumAnavar in the 18th century uses the word 'DrAviDam' to denote the Tamil language. 'NamaThipa Nikandu', a Tamil lexicon by Sivasubramanya Kavirayar, also uses 'DrAviDam' for the Tamil language. 'Senthan Divakaram', another Tamil lexicon of 9th century mentions that 'DrAviDam' as one of the eighteen languages spoken. A later work 'Kanthanthu Upadesa Kandam' mentions that God Shiva revealed to Agastya the grammar of proud language 'DrAviDam'.

• One of the earliest usage of the term drAviDa is in the 'drAviDa-shishu' by Adi Shankara in his 'saundaryalaharI', shloka 75. This is interpreted as a reference to himself and as a reference to Saint Sambandhar. The term 'drAviDa' here obviously refers to dakShiNa bhAratam--South India.

• It was Robert Caldwell, a scheming Evangelist Missionary and Orientalist under the British rule in India who created the term Dravidan to indicate the natives of the southern India, seeking to propagate his racist theories using a teleological approach.

D.P Sivaram (in his work 'On Tamil Militarism') proposes that the aims of Caldwell's study was to show that the fundamental tenets of the nascent phase of the Dravidian ideology were essentially linked to the political and cultural legacies of the British attempt to 1) demilitarise Tamil martial communities 2) Destabilise the spiritual challenge put forward by the Brahmins which was obstructive to his missionary work. (On Tamil Militarism: Bishop Caldwell & the Tamil Dravidians - Sangam.org)

• Wikipedia aptly sums up Caldwell's work as follows:
Robert Caldwell - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Thus Caldwell’s teleology assumed that Tamil revivalism would help consolidate the Protestant ethic and the allegiance to English rule among the non-military castes in Tamil society, by giving expression to the moral and religious ideas which he assumed were immanent in their ancient Dravidian culture and language.

Sources:
01. 'purANic Encyclopaedia' by vettam maNi
http://www.archive.org/download/puranicencyclopa00maniuoft/puranicencyclopa00maniuoft.pdf

02. 'The Dravidian Problem' by K.V.RAmakRShNa Rao
the dravidian problem

03. Who were the Dravidans?
Non-random-Thoughts: Who were the Dravidans?

(to continue)
 
Dear Sri Saidevo, Sri Anand,

Your posts are very informative. Thanks

Before missionary poured poison into our mother land,

We have account of our education system, compiled by Mr Dharampal in his A Beautiful Tree.

"
Surveys undertaken by the British in Bengal, Punjab and Madras Presidency (1800-1830). According to Collectors reports reviewed by Governor Sir Thomas Munro on 10/3/1826, of the 30,211 male school students in Madras Presidency 20% were Brahmins and Chettris, 9% were Vaishyas,50% were Sudras, 6% were Muslims and others were 15%. Madras Presidency then consisted of areas that fall in modern day Tamil Nadu, A.P, Orissa, Kerala and Karnataka. Another report by J Dent, Secretary, Fort Geroge dated 21/2/1825 stated that out of 1,88,680 scholars in all collectorates of Madras Presidency Brahmins were 23% while Sudras constituted 45%."

Ref: ???? ????????? ??????? - Bharat Swabhiman Andolan • View topic - How the glorious culture of India was demolished

He states further,

The indigenous education system in India, had a primary and a enhanced learning in their own respective and practised area. These were supported by the revenue generated by our village administrations (which was a very effective system). The revenue was not only used for education system, but also for various social schemes. And hence it was hard to find, in those days a discerned members or group of member in society. This British people, STOPPED this maniyam and redirected to their Gazana, ending the self supported education system and creation of poverty.

Missionary on the other hand, got money from their govt (which actually our own money) to fund the english education system.

Regards
 
Ref: ???? ????????? ??????? - Bharat Swabhiman Andolan • View topic - How the glorious culture of India was demolished
- Before british destroyed them all and subverted the educational and political system of India, historians of the century clearly mentioned that each and every village in India had Gurukuls (Vedas, Upanishads, Puranas were taught), and madarsas. William Adam in his observations found that there existed about 1,00,000 village schools in Bengal and Bihar around the 1830s. Men like Thomas Munro, had observed that ‘every village had a school’. Observations made by Dr. G.W.Leitner in 1882 show that the spread of education in the Punjab around 1850 was of a similar extent. At about the same time, England had very few schools for the children of ordinary people till about 1800, and many of the older grammar school were in poor shape.
 
Having stopped maniyam and made the villages poor, taxing the farmers so much so that, at the time of poor harvest they had commit suicide or runaway leaving the fields,

Missionaries started to harvest, using the poverty thus created....

Ref: ???? ????????? ??????? - Bharat Swabhiman Andolan • View topic - How the glorious culture of India was demolished

News about so many vices in Hinduism started surfacing only with the advent of Christian Missionaries in India. They with their mission of converting the wretched idolaters, i.e., Hindus to Christianity started slandering Hinduism. For they quickly perceived that Hindus were an unyielding, staunch lot. They would not yield to the treacherous methods of Christian Missionaries. So they devised a new way for accomplishing their Harvest. They decided to slander Hinduism in front of Hindus, so as to shake their belief in it, and also in front of global community so as to justify their demonic agendas of Conversion. And for that they had a new tool in their hands to which Hindus had no access. This tool was the combined institution of Modern British Education System and the newly born media, i.e., the propaganda machine. (How they developed these mediums in India is another topic, related to Macaulay and many others and too long to be discussed here).
 
In oldest Tamil literature Tholkapiyam, apart from saying the people and the nature of work in 5 places (kurinji, mullai, marudham, neidhal & Paalai) is a clear establishment of the necessity for the group system, and the work and culture differs according to the group, and one is not inferior or superior to other groups and this is a good system for peaceful living. The oldest tamil literature mentions very clearly about the 4 classes of people, their duties and responsibilities.

Our system was the reason for our glorious past, unlike the european system of "Master and slaves".
 
namaste shrI PV RAman.

Posts with excellent quotes! I am glad there are people here with the right perspective about the institution of varNa and caste and that we are collecting a good database of information. Let us continue with our efforts and pile up every single fact of our glorious ancient past, the recent past of aggressions and invasions and our present times of ignorance, indifference, complacency and laziness which are taken advantage by vested interests funded by the Western sources to subvert and divide us even after 70 years after our independence.

I wish we have a central government or at least one state government that is aware of our ancient culture and lifestyle and takes efforts to spread and implement it, in at least a few model villages. I think perhaps Narendra Modi should do it in Gujarat. Our tourisam departments showcase our cultural past in model huts for the Westerners; why not the government showcase our cultural, religious and educational lifestyle of the ancient times in model villages in every state, that are free from the political parties and are administered purely by village administration committees that reports to our dharmAchArya sabhas?

For such things to happen, it is essential that we mould the public opinion, especially among our children and the youth, so let us share the information here as widely as possible.
 
....Our system was the reason for our glorious past, unlike the european system of "Master and slaves".


Hello PVR, Let us say you are right, our old system was superior to the European system of masters and slaves, what is the status now? More than 150 years ago the Europeans have thrown out the masters and freed themselves. Today, you are unlikely to see anything resembling this in Europe. I am not saying Europe is great, far from it. Life is complex. All societies have their own warts. It is up to us to face ours honestly and make amends, in stead of blaming others.

I notice you are very much against missionaries, I am too. Just look at the genocide perpetrated upon an innocent native population in central and south America by the Spanish conquistador and the accompanying missionaries, and you will see the true face of evil, nothing close to any of this happened in India. But, the problem is not just the missionaries in India, how come the Hindus make their task so much easier? You know, the poor Dalit want nothing more than go to a mariamman or Ayianar temple and pray. The upper caste Hindus stand in their way and deny this simple thing. Why? We then whine about missionaries.

Now, the Brahmin orthodoxy cannot say anything about this, because, if they did, people will pounce all over them pointing out their hypocrisy on the matter. None of the Brahminical orthodoxy can even bring themselves to reject Manu and Gautama Darmashathras, they can't even say the odious verses are interpolations! That is what Brahmins will have to face and answer for.

BTW, is it not interesting that the defenders of caste talk from both sides of their mouth. On the one hand they claim genetic connection to Eastern Europeans and genetic separation from Shudras, and on the other hand say Aryan does not mean they were invaders from outside India. They blame the English for the pernicious aspects of the caste system and at the same time cite European Ideologists as proof positive that caste was a wonderful system and it was the British who messed it all up.

PVR, you say varna system was described in Tolkapyiyam, what does that prove? Does it mean varna system is just fine? If your point is that the ancient Tamils did it too, yes they did. Not only that, they still do. Who is at the front lines oppressing the Dalits? It is the so called NB Tamils. So, the problem is not who is doing it, but the problem is this system, the varna system.

You know PVR, this caste based oppression is described in many a Tamil literature dated to a time when Europe was barely Christian and India was safe from any missionary influences.

Whatever we do here, it really does not matter. Real life out there in colleges and corporations where our youngsters meet and mingle, they don't care about caste. Caste may live in villages for some more time, but the Brahmins have left the villages a long time ago. So, it is going to be the Brahmin youth who is going to dump caste into the dustbin of history where it belongs. The villages will ultimately get transformed. With the increasing sunlight of knowledge the days of caste is numbered. The quicker we get on with the program, the better it is for all of us.

Cheers!
 
That is why i am claiming my theory,that sanathana dharma,is the parent religion of the world.the other religion of the world which are 2000 years old or 1500 yeras old or 500 years old..etc were all born from sanathana dharma,constituting of primarily shad-darshanas,of the 100's of darshanas prevailing.therefore it was simply easy,for islam aka mughals,to capture and defeat Indians,and it was further simplified for Christians to capture and defeat,Indians,for the last 1200 years.Therefore a stocholm syndrome,is on a sub-conscious level for Indians,it will take time,for us to get the rhytm of vedas,upanishads,avatara vaakhyas,guru parampara and sampradayas to flourish,all over the world.So,India must have a seat in UN alongwith Japan,making it 7 member organisation,unlike 5 member.5 is skanda number or mars number,so fighting will always take place.whereas 7 is a spiritual number,peace and prosperity will progress globally,and finally UN can becoe 9 member organisation,as ultimate godhead of peace to prevail,all over the world.
 
namate everyone.

Nara's intervention steers this thread in a different, albeit complementary direction: discussing discrmination in the western societies.

Nara said in his post no.4 (emphasis added):
Folks, many people from all castes, Brahmin and NBs alike, fought against caste system in the past. All of them failed in their attempts. There is no harm in an honest assessment of the past. The object, at least from my side, is not to pin blame, but to take responsibility, something like truth and reconciliation. For this to happen, we must not allow anyone to whitewash the past. We will only add to the respect of our forefathers if we acted in an upright and compassionate manner.

Nara said in his post no.19 (emphasis added):
Hello PVR, Let us say you are right, our old system was superior to the European system of masters and slaves, what is the status now? More than 150 years ago the Europeans have thrown out the masters and freed themselves. Today, you are unlikely to see anything resembling this in Europe. I am not saying Europe is great, far from it. Life is complex. All societies have their own warts. It is up to us to face ours honestly and make amends, in stead of blaming others.
*****

If my presentation of the positive aspects of the Hindu varNa and caste system is whitewashing the past, what about Nara's statement of a free and fair Europe during the last 150 years--is it all hunky-dory so far as class distinctions are concerned, or is Nara simply trying to whitewash the present?

Discrimination in Western Societies
Hindu Wisdom - Caste_System

Here are some examples of glaring discrimination of minorities in Egalitarian Western societies:

• If Manu deplored the shUdras, what did Jefferson, the Ambedkar of the USA do?

"I advance it, as a suspicion only, that the blacks, whether originally a distinct race, or made distinct by time and circumstances, are inferior to the whites in the endowments both of body and mind."

--Thomas Jefferson, author of the famous statement, "All men are created equal." (source: Dialog on Whiteness Studies - By Rajiv Malhotra - sulekha.com).

*****

• "Where there is Man, there are social divisions.. That's why you have the Boston Brahmins in the US, the Zaibutsu in Japan, Parisian aristocracy, the Communist Party of China, and what have you."
--writes Varsha Bhosle, columnist in rediff.com.

From the article 'People & Events: Boston Brahmins'
American Experience | Murder at Harvard | People & Events

‣ The term "Boston Brahmins" refers to a class of wealthy, educated, elite members of Boston society in the nineteenth century. Oliver Wendell Holmes coined the term in a novel in 1861, calling Boston's elite families "the Brahmin Caste of New England."

‣ Several factors, besides wealth, made Boston's Brahmins stand out as an aristocracy even from the wealthy of other cities. With waves of immigration to America's cities in the middle of the nineteenth century, the position of the wealthy and elite in every city was threatened. ... In Boston, the Brahmins fought fiercely to close immigrants out. While they may have prided themselves on being the champions of abolitionism, they did not actually want black Americans, or any other non-Brahmin group, encroaching on their power or society.

*****

• In India, the government lending institutions such as the public sector banks, give loans to the weeker societies at very low interest rates for every conceivable purpose. The central government monitors their performance regularly in lending to the 'priority sector'.

In America, Mortgage lending institutions routinely discriminate Blacks from owing properties in affluent suburbs of America.

‣ Black and Hispanic mortgage loan applicants in the United States continued to face higher rejection rates on than whites and Asians last year, according to data released by the Federal Reserve last week. (Blacks, Hispanics See Increased Mortgage Rejection Rates)

*****

• In India, the central government census lists thousands of castes, most of which relate to the BC and the SC/ST. More and more castes seek to be defined lower in the social order, in order to secure the educational and monetary benefits.

As against this, what the USA can give its citizens is the Racial profiling. A report from the Amnesty International USA says:
Racial Profiling

‣ Racial profiling is a serious human rights problem affecting millions of people in the United States in even the most routine aspects of their daily lives. A year-long study conducted by the Domestic Human Rights Program of Amnesty International USA found that the unlawful use of race in police, immigration, and airport security procedures has expanded since the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001.

‣ The study further found that state laws provide insufficient and inconsistent protection against profiling. Despite promises by President George W. Bush shortly after his taking office to end racial profiling, the number of American ethnic, racial, and religious groups whose members are at high risk of being subjected to this scourge has increased substantially.

‣ To address this growing national problem, Amnesty International USA (AIUSA) urges the White House and Congress to prioritize and enact the End Racial Profiling Act of 2004 and allocate sufficient funds for its vigorous enforcement.

*****

• In banking and other government jobs, the staffers belonging to the SC/ST community routinely harass their superiors, who are not even allowed to point out or advise them about their low-key performances.

American Bar Association: "The charges were breathtaking: That in the heart of the most predominantly black city in the country, the Christianity-based activist organization was forcing its African-American employees to use the back entrance, and providing them separate and unequal facilities for taking breaks and eating lunch."

(source: Christian Coalition’s racism). There are influential Christian racist groups like KKK, Christian Identity and the National Organization For European-American Rights (NOFEAR).

*****

• As against the caste discriminations highlighted in India, the Social discrimination aginst the settled immigrant races, specially the Blacks, seems to occur more often than not in 'white race riots':

‣ Between 1824 and 1951 there were over 300 events classified as “White Race Riots” in which entire white communities turned on and destroyed entire Black communities and murdered Blacks in mass. There were 26 such major events and hundreds of smaller ones in major cities and towns across the US during the summer of 1919 alone. This period has been tagged by historians as “The Red Summer of 1919”, because many of the events happened from May to October of that year and the blood of their victims literally painted the streets of America. (Black Holocaust in America)

*****

• Discrimination of humans of the same faith in temples is certainly totally wrong and even criminal. No Hindu should be denied access to a place of public worship in the name of caste. Of course, this does happen in India, but usually ends up the government interfering and securing the rights of the harassed people. What is the situation in the USA?

Conversion to Christianity does not seem to eradicate caste prejudice in India any more than it eliminates racial discrimination in the US. Despite Jesus' call for brotherly love, isn't Sunday the most segregated day in America? If not, how does one explain the need for English-speaking African-Americans and Hispanics of Christian faith to maintain separate places of worship? Many fundamentalist Christian groups in the US still maintain racial separation and frown upon inter-racial dating. (Proselytization In India: An Indian Christian's Perspective - Christian Aggression)

*****

• In the name of secularism, our governments drove Hinduism out of the public schools in India, subscribing to the Macaulay's English educational system. In the name of Dalits upliftment, the governments give them the majority of seats, especially in higher educational institutions, charging them a lower fees, paying no heed to the brain drain that occurs due to the 'quota system' that our Constitution wanted to end in the near future.

Summerton, South Carolina - Take a trip to Scott's Branch Public High School, and you'll be greeted by a student body that is more than 99 percent Black. Fifty years after the Supreme Court outlawed school segregation, residents say schools in this school district are as segregated as ever. For proof, they point to a nearby private school, Clarendon Hall, which is 90 percent white and admitted its first black student only four years ago.
(source: Segregation persists in town behind Brown - msnbc.msn.com). Refer to Take a look at Slavery - godisimaginary.com

*****

Hurricane Katrina, 2005, in New Orleans

At times of natural calamities in India, it is a common sight that Hindu institutions like the RSS, and the popular Hindu ashrams like that of MAtA AmritAnanda MayI, Ramakrishna Mission, etc. rush to the affected areas and serve the people without any distinctions of caste or religion. It is also a common sight that the Christian missionary vultures flock to these areas and try to secure conversions in the name of monetary help and that the governmental machinary often turns a blind eye to their aggression.

When the Katrina hurricane struck the New Orleans, USA in 2005, the Hindu institutions rushed to the spot and their service was much appreciated. In September 2005, Mata Amritanandamayi donated $1,000,000 to the Bush-Clinton Hurricane Katrina fund. She also sent a top aide to the devastated areas soon after the storm struck in the United States to assess the kind of help needed by victims.

As against this scenario, this is what a US Senate member spoke about the calamity:

"We finally cleaned up public housing in New Orleans. We couldn't do it, but God did."
--Rep. Richard H. Baker
Some GOP Legislators Hit Jarring Notes in Addressing Katrina - washingtonpost.com

*****

• Although Dalits in India are regularly harassed, specially the BC, there are no 'Hate groups' in India. In the USA, it is different.

The Southern Poverty Law Center counted 932 active hate groups in the United States in 2009. This list was compiled using hate group publications and websites.
Hate Map | Southern Poverty Law Center

‣ New software tools widely available on the Internet are helping hate groups jump on the video game bandwagon with offerings such as Ethnic Cleansing — where players become cyber-Klansmen and stalk minorities through a virtual urban landscape. And a recent report by the Anti-Defamation League says there is a rise in hate games on the Web.

(source: Hate Groups Use Freely Available Software to Make Racist Games - abcnews.com).

*****

Let us sum up this brief fact-finding with the following quote:

• Kahled Ahmed, columnist from Pakistan, has made an interesting point about the American way of life:

"The American way of life can be quite isolating because of the concept of equal-but-separate rights, allowing individuals and whole communities to live in their separate identity bubbles."

*****

Human society, in the East or West, is bound to have social distinctions in one form other. They can never be eliminated. The only solution is peaceful co-existence with mutual respect, which was the purport of our Hindu institution of varNa and caste.
 
Dear friends,

One of the often used debating tactics is to throw up a lot of mud and see whether something sticks. Saidevo seems to be an expert in that technique. Relevancy be damned, just kick up a lot of dust and bamboozle everyone. He perhaps feels triumph if you don’t have the patience to sift through the dust and fret out any relevant points.

Before he launched into his latest attempt at this, Saidevo highlighted the following two points I made earlier.

  1. we must not allow anyone to whitewash the past, and,
  2. my response to PVR’s assertion about the European system of master/slave.
But, instead of arguing about these points, Saidevo produces copious cut and paste materials about discrimination in western societies in general and US in particular. Why should any of this absolve caste system? They did it in the west also is his defense???

Yes, I agree, Jefferson was a racist and a hypocrite. Would Saidevo now admit varna/caste is a pernicious system?

If my presentation of the positive aspects of the Hindu varNa and caste system is whitewashing the past, what about Nara's statement of a free and fair Europe during the last 150 years--is it all hunky-dory so far as class distinctions are concerned, or is Nara simply trying to whitewash the present?
Here is another example of Saidevo's skill in erecting of straw man. Having done so, Saidevo triumphantly launches into tearing this straw man down with cut and paste job from far and wide.

Let us pause for a minute and see what I actually said:
"Hello PVR, Let us say you are right, our old system was superior to the European system of masters and slaves, what is the status now? More than 150 years ago the Europeans have thrown out the masters and freed themselves. Today, you are unlikely to see anything resembling this in Europe. I am not saying Europe is great, far from it. Life is complex. All societies have their own warts. It is up to us to face ours honestly and make amends, instead of blaming others."
From this Saidevo’s fertile mind inferred I was whitewashing western discrimination. Well well.


After all the cut-and-paste dirt kicking, Saidevo arrives at the grand conclusion:
Human society, in the East or West, is bound to have social distinctions in one form other. They can never be eliminated. The only solution is peaceful co-existence with mutual respect, which was the purport of our Hindu institution of varNa and caste.
Sir, I submit to you, the Hindu institution of Varna/caste is intrinsically incompatible with "peaceful co-existence with mutual respect".

Saidevo can no more express his views on caste in general public than a westerner can on his racist phobia. Whatever may be the history of discrimination, and we can argue about that endlessly, it is self-evident that the international zeitgeist including India does not tolerate Varna/caste institution any more than racism.

Here are some news articles if you are interested in understanding what the world, including Indians, think of caste.

UK bill links caste to race, India red-faced - India - The Times of India

Caste and Race: Two sides of the same coin? | Analysis & Opinion |

Nepal: UN welcomes verdict on caste-based discrimination
UN says caste system is a human rights abuse - Telegraph


Let me conclude with this challenge. I condemn all forms of discrimination whether in the west or in India. Now, I invite Saidevo to condemn caste system and the Dharmashasthras that lend it religious credibility.

Thanks....
 
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Lets clear the contamination in caste

Hello PVR, Let us say you are right, our old system was superior to the European system of masters and slaves, what is the status now? More than 150 years ago the Europeans have thrown out the masters and freed themselves. Today, you are unlikely to see anything resembling this in Europe. I am not saying Europe is great, far from it. Life is complex. All societies have their own warts. It is up to us to face ours honestly and make amends, in stead of blaming others.

I am trying to see, If in India, is it possible to live as one big family and each and every person getting their due share of respect and bread. I do not think it will be a reality ever in the future because of the shrinking resources vs bulging population. In future, there will be fights for water and food the symptoms are already started to show up.

My contention is that, castes are equal to one another, protects and have a channel to voice an individual's concern through this kind of representation. And we are seeing that the people belong to any caste system prefer to retain that identity, and it will not become an issue as long as one thinks and exhibits superiority over other castes. The collective behavior of the majority members of the caste system defines the character of the particular caste.

On the contrary, I am not taking any book reference now to think about Europeans. You have said that in 150 Years the Europeans have thrown out Master and slave system. I am of the understanding that, they have thrown out Master and slave system by throwing out slaves to other countries as Indentured servants and laborers. They did not have any representation, poor things, and their stories are much worse than a dalit here.

I will also agree, if European which we are trying to ape now, is indeed enlightened souls and treat every body equal. But the history is against it. When they ruled India till 1947, how they treated Indians is a fresh History! I want to ask, Europeans compassion to humanity is only confined to European Human only?

In addition to slaves (who were mostly from Africa), Europeans, including Irish,[3] Scottish,[4] English, and Germans,[5] immigrated to North America in substantial numbers as indentured servants,[6] particularly to the British Thirteen Colonies.[7] Over half of all white emigrants that arrived in the English colonies of North America during the 17th and 18th centuries may have been indentured servants.[8] In the 18th and early 19th century numerous Europeans traveled to the colonies as redemptioners, a form of indenture.[9]
http://www.answers.com/topic/indentured-servant

Sir, what the European did to our own country men? they exported such 'near slaves' and 'slaves' to south africa, Indonesia and various other countries.

The superior Europeans had different classes and treatment for their own and Indians as recently as in 19th century in our own land!. I really think that they are bound by law which curbs their animal instincts toward colored persons and the low level same color people and they have not attained the sainthood and definitely not in their nature.

At best, European models can produce only slaves to factories (we call it as Workers, officers & Managers, GMs, VPs & Presidents) who spent their entire lifetime in chasing the material fulfillment and the labor is made to struggle to keep up his family spending his entire life time. "sugar coated slavery".

IMHO, caste system is giving a sort of belonging and assurance to the individuals. It lets individuals with similar habits and lifestyles to live in a group. (கூடி வாழ்ந்தால் கோடி நண்மை. But with difference in opinion or thinking we know that even an Husband and wife can not live together).

Our efforts should be marshalled to educate that all castes are not inferior or superior to one another. IMHO, it will be possible only if each one of us value others not because of their social status (achieved by industrial work position or material pursuit success level). But in reality what happens, our education system, encourages the student to climb the social ladder and claim the respect by the financial status alone. When this is the subject, every thing takes its own dimension and due to this what our ancestors practiced and followed became a sin now in the eye of the educated persons (playing the foot ball with rules of crickets and blaming the game!).

செருப்பு கடித்தால், எண்ணை விட்டு சரி செய்கிறோம், செருப்பையே தூக்கி போடுவதில்லை.
இயந்திரம் ஓடும் போது, சத்தம் வந்தால், அதற்க்கு லூப்ரிகேட் செய்கிறோம், தூக்கி போடுவதில்லை.

We have many evidences that before the contamination, ours was a very admirable land, which attracted all the people from other part of world. We did not anticipate, others conquered us and contaminated our land and minds. We all should clean the dirt piled up in the system and minds due to the contamination and not getting rid of the system altogether for a very bad one.

Regards
 
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செருப்பு கடித்தால், எண்ணை விட்டு சரி செய்கிறோம், செருப்பையே தூக்கி போடுவதில்லை.

When gangrene sets in we don't apply amrthanjan, we cut the limb and throw it away.

PVR, I am ready to reject colonialism, but you are not ready to reject castesism.

PVR, the Europeans were terrible with the rest of the worlds over many centuries, but look at how they are now, how they treat their own, as a rule, all over their world, not only do they treat their own white kind better than any other social group treats their own, but they provide sufficient freedoms for immigrants within their own society that the rest of the world somehow by hook or crook wants to be part of their society. If we can treat our own like they treat their immigrants, how nice it would be.

A Dalit with all the benefits Indian government offers is more likely to enjoy equality, liberty, and fraternity in Canada than in India. Why is that acceptable because 2 centuries ago people moved to USA as indentured servants?

Cheers!
 
Dear Sri Nara,

I notice you are very much against missionaries, I am too. Just look at the genocide perpetrated upon an innocent native population in central and south America by the Spanish conquistador and the accompanying missionaries, and you will see the true face of evil, nothing close to any of this happened in India. But, the problem is not just the missionaries in India, how come the Hindus make their task so much easier? You know, the poor Dalit want nothing more than go to a mariamman or Ayianar temple and pray. The upper caste Hindus stand in their way and deny this simple thing. Why? We then whine about missionaries.


I will remain an anti-மிஷநரி as long as I live. They do not let us resolve our problems, they continue to pour mud, when we want to see a clear water. We do not justify their act in anyway.

Sir, I know your view point about dalits. But in reality, as the other western media tries, i do not want to hang on with the incidents here and there. When somebody cuts kudumi of a poor brahmin priest and kills him no body voices that all the brahmins are oppressed. We can ready to justify this and in the same time justify that too. We are seeing only in case of Dalits that if anything happens to one in a remote village, then there is a big noice that all the dalits are affected. I am seeing that they are like brahmins, no unity among caste members!.

Now, the Brahmin orthodoxy cannot say anything about this, because, if they did, people will pounce all over them pointing out their hypocrisy on the matter. None of the Brahminical orthodoxy can even bring themselves to reject Manu and Gautama Darmashathras, they can't even say the odious verses are interpolations! That is what Brahmins will have to face and answer for.

IMHO, the village stray attrocities on dalits are not due to the brahmin and dharmashastras. Its a practical clash over the two different communities trying to interweave. I do not think, the upper caste tamil have studied and taken the help of dharma shastra to do such attrocities. As long as we try to attribute, the others are happy to continue thinking that there is another place to throw the blame on.

BTW, is it not interesting that the defenders of caste talk from both sides of their mouth. On the one hand they claim genetic connection to Eastern Europeans and genetic separation from Shudras, and on the other hand say Aryan does not mean they were invaders from outside India. They blame the English for the pernicious aspects of the caste system and at the same time cite European Ideologists as proof positive that caste was a wonderful system and it was the British who messed it all up.

Except the last line, i never heard the other lines. I understand we are all same genetically and monkeys come close. I still claim that, the english are the reason for the expansion of castes, which till date continue to multiply.

PVR, you say varna system was described in Tolkapyiyam, what does that prove? Does it mean varna system is just fine? If your point is that the ancient Tamils did it too, yes they did. Not only that, they still do. Who is at the front lines oppressing the Dalits? It is the so called NB Tamils. So, the problem is not who is doing it, but the problem is this system, the varna system.

Sir, i took the reference of tholkapiyam to show that the varna system did not even mention about dalits. The varna system did not denote any superiority from one varna to others. The way dalits became untouchables, there is a way for them to come back. But they rebel now like before. In olden days, the people who do not want to live in a society become outcastes. I can see the traces.

You know PVR, this caste based oppression is described in many a Tamil literature dated to a time when Europe was barely Christian and India was safe from any missionary influences.
Its worthwhile to go into those details. I will go through it and need time to check.

Whatever we do here, it really does not matter. Real life out there in colleges and corporations where our youngsters meet and mingle, they don't care about caste.

Its suits for the survival.

Caste may live in villages for some more time, but the Brahmins have left the villages a long time ago. So, it is going to be the Brahmin youth who is going to dump caste into the dustbin of history where it belongs. The villages will ultimately get transformed. With the increasing sunlight of knowledge the days of caste is numbered. The quicker we get on with the program, the better it is for all of us.

Time will tell, its good or bad if the village is transformed.

Regards
 
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