• This forum contains old posts that have been closed. New threads and replies may not be made here. Please navigate to the relevant forum to create a new thread or post a reply.
  • Welcome to Tamil Brahmins forums.

    You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our Free Brahmin Community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today!

    If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact contact us.

Plight of elderly Indian immigrants

  • Thread starter Thread starter sudeshwer
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Agreed, and thank you.
I do have a question on morality?
According to Wikipedia:


By definition it is not a written rule. If it is unwritten it can be different depending on time and place.
In some of the abrahamic religion it is written down (or etched in stone), we know what happens to them. Even the written code gets different explanation (say the judges interpretation). So I would not judge others by my moral code. My morals are mine and mine alone. They might overlap yours on majority of cases but still they are unique to me.

No one is guilty till proven beyond doubt, then also there is appeals etc.

Alright. Let us then accept morality as something flexible (--to each his own). The fudge factor depends on the individual. Virtue and vice were as far apart as black and white once upon a time. But it is not so anymore. Lots of shades of gray have bridged the two and one can stay at either end or the middle of the spectrum and still claim to be part of the whole stretch.
 
Alright. Let us then accept morality as something flexible (--to each his own). The fudge factor depends on the individual. Virtue and vice were as far apart as black and white once upon a time. But it is not so anymore. Lots of shades of gray have bridged the two and one can stay at either end or the middle of the spectrum and still claim to be part of the whole stretch.

Yes precisely my point. I am ok, and so are you.
 
Hats off Somayaji. thank you very much. both Mr Mahakavi and Mr Prasad must be senior citizens. they must have come to US much earlier and worked and contributed for medical. now, I want to know how much their parents must have sacrificed for educating them and sending them to US. Now, take my case. yes I did a great job in educating both my children well and saw to it that they go to green pasture as Mahakavi and Prasad have done. As Somayaji pointed out my son has contributed enough to cover our health expenses. we also have come from a very decent family and fortunately never begged. My great grand father built a temple in my town in TNand my mother's great grand father's name is Agni Mahalinga Siva- an agni hotri. sorry if I have wounded anybody but I beseech TB forum members to coin the words in such a way so that nobody is hurt
 
... both Mr Mahakavi and Mr Prasad must be senior citizens. they must have come to US much earlier and worked and contributed for medical. now, I want to know how much their parents must have sacrificed for educating them and sending them to US. Now, take my case. yes I did a great job in educating both my children well and saw to it that they go to green pasture as Mahakavi and Prasad have done. As Somayaji pointed out my son has contributed enough to cover our health expenses. we also have come from a very decent family and fortunately never begged. My great grand father built a temple in my town in TNand my mother's great grand father's name is Agni Mahalinga Siva- an agni hotri. sorry if I have wounded anybody but I beseech TB forum members to coin the words in such a way so that nobody is hurt

Mr. Sudeshwer:
One does not need to be a senior citizen to know the rules regarding social security, medicare, medicaid etc., in the US. Some of us are familiar with doings of the government. If one is an informed citizen one gets to participate in the affairs of the government.

Regarding your statement "As Somayaji pointed out my son has contributed enough to cover our health expenses." I have to take exception to it. As individuals, everybody who works in the US pays social security (it is not a tax but compulsory insurance---most people are not aware of it---it is called FICA which means Federal Insurance Contribution Act) deducted from their paychecks periodically. There is a maximum amount of income which is adjusted every year on which a percentage for social security is deducted. All of that goes into a fund which is used to pay social security benefits (monthly payments) to those who are eligible and currently retired. Nobody pays into the social security system for their parents' health care expenses however much they pay. Even the income tax they pay to the federal and state governments do not cover their parents' healthcare nor social security benefits such as SSI I talked about earlier. The social security payments workers make do NOT go into their own account either. They cannot withdraw that money if they want. They cannot refuse to pay those either. It is the law. Their benefits, once they retire, will be determined by their service period, their payments and the rules that govern the benefit payments. Their benefits will be paid out of the payments made by future workers. The reason that the social security system is in danger of running out of funds is because there is more outflow to retirees, and disabled persons (who receive benefits from the same funds) than the inflow from current workers. Medicare and Medicaid are separate from social security. That fund is also running in deficit.
So just to make it clear, unless I have worked and paid into the social security system in the US (for retiree benefits and hospital care after retirement) I cannot claim such benefits based on my children who might have contributed enormous amounts into the system. By some chance if I become destitute in my old age, I cannot claim any benefit through my children's payments. At that time the available option is SSI, medicaid, food stamps and such safety net provisions that the government has. Such provisions are the ones I mentioned earlier which are availed by those who have GC but have not worked and paid into social security system.

These remarks are just facts and not intended to hurt anybody in particular. If some individual is getting such payments without having been a past participant in the system that is because the system has loopholes. The safety net was established by the government through legislation enacted mainly by democratic administrations in the past to look after the lower rung members of the society.

As for your individual case, I have no intention of criticizing your situation. What I said is fact. No insult is intended. As for the morality issue, as Mr. Prasad indicated, it is a gray area and I will not dwell on it anymore.
 
Last edited:
Mr. Mahakavi ji,
Well said, and a good explanation of the system.
But these and other social systems are in danger of being reduced or defunded by the potential sweep by Republicans.
Sorry to interject my politics, LOL.
 
Mr. Somayaji:
Let me answer some specific points in your comments. See all the blue fonts.

I do NOT know what is "Regular SS.---But we both (Husband and wife ) have Social Security.SSN is very important in getting any kind of Benefit.

By regular SS I mean monthly payments for retirees or disabled workers who worked in the US over their working life and contributed into the social security system (6.2% of their wages up to a limit prescribed by law). If you did not work in the US for a minimum period of 10 years and contributed into the social security system you are not eligible to receive monthly payments upon your retirement that is based on your length of service, contribution etc. If you came into this country sponsored by your son/daughter who are citizens and if you are a senior citizen, you can apply for an SSN and if you declare that you are on your own and that nobody is there to support you, then you become the ward of the government which pays you what is known as SSI (supplemental security income), and medical care. It is available to US citizens whose income is very low when they retire or those without jobs or destitute. The same provision is made available to senior citizen immigrants who come into US legally (such as sponsored by their children)


All GCs who have SSN, do NOT get $500/= per month-No Cash nor "Food Relief" --For "Citizens" (Seniors) this is NOT the rule. My daughter -in -law is a Certified Public Accountant (CPA)--she says "Supporters'" income limit,their commitment and Time proximity to the "Eligibility" to Citizenship are all the criteria for GCs. Medicare alone is "Mostly Free,subject to Part-B provisions", =>that too through a Medical Insurance only.The Insurance Company "Item by Item has to clear". For Instance "Life Saving" measures can Not be refused-there also One has to go through the "Approved facilities only,even for "Prescription medicines".--PCP is the final Authority to decide and he/she has to go through a lot of regulations & rules..-but a "Denture" or "Glass for the eyes"--one has to wait for prior approval of the Insurance Company even for a few months for clearence.

I am not an expert on the details. But let me state this. If the son/daughter of the immigrant senior tells the senior to declare that he is on his own, then these provisions kick in. That is the safety net the government has for its own citizens and it applies to the immigrant seniors as well.


NO need to have worked here and stayed here for 10 years etc.

It is true only for SSI and medical care. The 10-year provision I mentioned is for the regular social security benefits that regular retirees are eligible to receive upon their retirement which is based on their length of service, amount contributed and the calculation of certain other factors.

No "cheating" is involved in this case--From Our Childrens' Salary automatically a "Fairly Reasonable Amount" is deducted at "Source" for "Social Security". When Two couples "Contribute" it is a huge amount.They don' get even a penny as benefit from SS,as long as they earn,(and sentimentally they do not want anything from SS also)and they do not want to give up their earning as long as they can.They say "if some un-known faces are getting the benefits,why NOT our parents get a small portion as Medicare,when it is legitimate."

As I said in reply to Mr. Sudeshwer every worker in the US is bound by law to contribute to the social security system. If a husband and wife work they both should contribute, huge amount or not is not the point. They have to pay according to what the law dictates. Mitt Romney also has to contribute on the wages he earns (I am not sure about Obama when he occupies the White House or about members of Congress; they may have a separate system). Nobody gets a penny from the SS when they are working. Only when they retire or become disabled the system comes into play. Sentimentality does not govern this. The law takes its course. If you say I do not want to receive retirement benefits that does not exempt you from paying into the system.

As for "unknown faces getting it and why not us" ---that is a morality issue. If somebody steals and not getting caught I should not attempt the same method--wouldn't you agree? I am not saying that availing the SSI by those who were not participants in the system is illegal because that provision has been made as a safety net for US citizens and is being extended to those who are in the county legally.
Secondly preventive medicine for the vulnerable group (what Prof.Alex Comfort says "Deterioration across the Board in GERONS) is of paramount importance in public Health Care of Younger population,which is Government's responsibility .

No comment.

In our Country the Government bears the burden of Public Health from Tax-payer's money.(it was what Dr.K.S.Sanjivi--with whom I worked for 14 years-- was telling all his life----In INDIA Federal Government alone charges Tax on Income--here Federal--State-City all charges Tax on Income apart from "Social Security" deductions =>from which the Meical Aid for Senior Citizens are given.In one sense Healthy Earning Children indirectly pay Medical expenses for their parents."Charity Starts at Home"..

As I said in my reply to Mr. Sudeshwer, it is NOT true that healthy earning children indirectly pay medical expenses for their parents. Nobody in this country pays for the health care expenses of their parents. (Some children may pay the so-called co-payments required of their parents when they incur them. They are not obligated to do so). Either the retired parents, when they worked, paid into the system for such benefits or they become wards of the government and get benefits from the system that is meant to be a safety net.
 
Mr. Mahakavi ji,

But these and other social systems are in danger of being reduced or defunded by the potential sweep by Republicans.
Sorry to interject my politics, LOL.

I am of the conviction that your fears are unfounded. Yes ,there is talk by the Republicans in general and teapartyers in particular to tell the masses to "eat cake". You know what happened when Mary Antoinette said the same thing to the French peasants in the 1780s---they brought the baker and his wife from Versailles to Paris and you know what happened next. Even if both houses of Congress and the White House are taken over by the Republicans such a scenario is wrought with dire consequences for the country. So they will not venture to take up drastic measures. The senior citizen population will not take it lying down. Even before anything is contemplated, so long as the Senate has more than 40 democrats they can kill any measure the Republicans attempt through the mechanism of filibuster.
 
I feel it is a little cheating in a way that the elderly parents of US workers of foreign origin (citizens or not) to get monetary benefits from the US government without any contribution on their part. They are not US citizens who worked and paid taxes in the US. They are just exploiting the loophole in the US human services system. Don't get me wrong. I feel the taxpayer is loaded with this burden.

I suppose usage of the word "cheating" has touched a raw nerve with many people, which is understandable.

I acknowledge the logic behind the question raised. But Mahakavi's post touches only one end of the spectrum. What about the fact that people who work here on non-immigrant visas are also required to pay into social security? After all, by definition, people on non-immigrant visas are here only on a temporary basis and isn't forcing them to pay onto a system they cannot take advantage of amoral? I am not implying that one compensates for the other but these hazards come with the package - the package of socialism!
 
காலபைரவன்:
I am afraid of your name (just kidding!). Let me expand a bit on why I called cheating.

In the first place when the son/daughter (who is a naturalized US citizen) originally from another country sponsors their elderly (senior) parents to apply for green card entry into US, they give a written affidavit (properly notarized) that they will be financially responsible for their parents once they are in the US and not abandon them. In that case, once the parents are in the US, if they accompany their parents to the appropriate agency to get SSN for their parents and say "here are my parents who are senior citizens, I sponsored them to get green cards and now I want them to get SSI and free medical care". What do you think the authorities would do? They will take down all particulars about the sponsors and the parents and then they will deny the request for monetary aid and medical care based on the affidavit the sponsors gave. To overcome that hurdle the sponsors would tell their elderly parents to go to the agency themselves (they might drop them there) and tell them to declare that they are on their own and they need help with income and medical care. I don't know what are all the questions the authorities would ask (like who is your sponsor, how come they don't help you at all with financial assistance, where do you live if you don't live with your children and sundry questions). If the elderly parents admit they live with their adult children they will be denied all help. They may have to lie that they don't get any support from their children even if they live with them. Then only the authorities would approve monthly monetary assistance andor medicare card. Both benefits will require an SSN which can be obtained without any problem. Tell me if this was the course of action followed, does it amount to cheating or not. There may be more to it than what I have given in a simplified form. I will leave the issue there.

I am not an expert on immigration and immigrant visa work situation. It is a law that if anybody is on a payroll in the US, social security deduction is compulsory whether the person works for a few years or permanently. There may be some relief available to them from their employer either in the form of additional income (to compensate for the 6.2% social security deduction from their paycheck) or in the event they leave the country for good there may be some arrangement to get a lump sum equivalent to what was deducted in the form of a severance package at the departure time. It is an arrangement to be negotiated with the employer. It is not illegal to do so. You see the SS deduction is required by law. What if it is not deducted and the person manages to convert his non-immigrant visa into an immigrant visa a few years down the road and stays in the country permanently? That will be illegal, won't it? So to forestall that possibility the deduction is made whether the person would be able to use the benefits in the future or not.
 
It appears some kind of "Complexes" are involved in these discussions.

(quote) once the parents are in the US, if they accompany their parents to the appropriate agency to get SSN for their parents and say "here are my parents who are senior citizens, I sponsored them to get green cards and now I want them to get SSI and free medical care". What do you think the authorities would do? They will take down all particulars about the sponsors and the parents and then they will deny the request for monetary aid and medical care based on the affidavit the sponsors gave. To overcome that hurdle the sponsors would tell their elderly parents to go to the agency themselves (they might drop them there) and tell them to declare that they are on their own and they need help with income and medical care. I don't know what are all the questions the authorities would ask (like who is your sponsor, how come they don't help you at all with financial assistance, where do you live if you don't live with and sundry questions). If the elderly parents admit they live with their adult children they will be denied all help.(en-quote)

As far as we know this is TOTALLY INCORRECT.The statement "If the elderly parents admit they live with their adult children they wil be denied help" is IN-CORRECT.Not only once, Every Year we,elderly parents (GC) declare that we live with our Adult child--child's name,address and SSN--(SSN will give the Authorities the details of Employment--Tax details and so many other information)

Every Year SS sends a form:- "Declaration of Income OR Support" in May-June .--returnable in July.

OUR INCOME $ 0/= which is 100 % TRUE.In our old age we are Totally dependent only on our children .--(100 %) TRUE

One of our children gives a sighned declaration every year that that the child "Provides" us(Parents) (1) Sleeping accommodation (with heat) (2) Meals--(3) Monthly cash Assistance;- nil (100 % True)--from xx Month-xx-Date--xxxx Year." I shall continue to provide (this Support)"=YES---"I do NOT provide medical and Hospital expenses."--The program officials may verify the information =Yes.

Our Child did NOT drop us in SS office and went away-our child stayed with us through out--We did NOT say we live on our own--or we need Government support--The "Supporting" Child 's name--Child's Full Address and SS Number --our SS numbers all are recorded every year. Even at the Time of giving GC and SS they recorded all the details (including the Employment details of the "Supporting" child.)--

Without knowing all aspects of rules and regulations using the word CHEATING is NOT in good taste.

I did NOT say my children "Contribute Specifically" to their parents(our) SS--They contribute to General Pool from which the Government gives Medicare for Senior Citizens,and so weare eligible and get=>which is LEGITIMATE
 
Last edited by a moderator:
It appears some kind of "Complexes" are involved in these discussions.



As far as we know this is TOTALLY INCORRECT.The statement "If the elderly parents admit they live with their adult children they wil be denied help" is IN-CORRECT.Not only once, Every Year we,elderly parents (GC) declare that we live with our Adult child--child's name,address and SSN--(SSN will give the Authorities the details of Employment--Tax details and so many other information)

Every Year SS sends a form:- "Declaration of Income OR Support" in May-June .--returnable in July.

OUR INCOME $ 0/= which is 100 % TRUE.In our old age we are Totally dependent only on our children .--(100 %) TRUE

One of our children gives a sighned declaration every year that that the child "Provides" us(Parents) (1) Sleeping accommodation (with heat) (2) Meals--(3) Monthly cash Assistance;- nil (100 % True)--from xx Month-xx-Date--xxxx Year." I shall continue to provide (this Support)"=YES---"I do NOT provide medical and Hospital expenses."--The program officials may verify the information =Yes.

Our Child did NOT drop us in SS office and went away-our child stayed with us through out--We did NOT say we live on our own--or we need Government support--The "Supporting" Child 's name--Child's Full Address and SS Number --our SS numbers all are recorded every year. Even at the Time of giving GC and SS they recorded all the details (including the Employment details of the "Supporting" child.)--

Without knowing all aspects of rules and regulations using the word CHEATING is NOT in good taste.

I did NOT say my children "Contribute Specifically" to their parents(our) SS--They contribute to General Pool from which the Government gives Medicare for Senior Citizens,and so weare eligible and get=>which is LEGITIMATE

Let me ask you a simple question. I don't want to get personal. So let me assume I am the immigrant elderly parent of a US citizen and I have been sponsored by my adult child with an affidavit for financial support (without which the immigration would not have approved my GC). Now I live with my adult child's family---I get room, and board. My child tells me "I can't give you any cash allowance, and if you get sick I can't/won't pay for your medical expenses, you are on your own, if you can go get it from the government, please do so. Also you love your grandchildren and you may watch them when they are home while we are working". Now do I consider them the same kids that I spent my "blood, toil, tears and sweat" to raise them? Isn't it against TB culture? You may say that happens in India too nowadays. But I don't and won't stand for it. If that situation came up I'd pack my bags and go back to where I came from rather than go the US government and say "my adult child (who has a good income) refuses to pay any cash allowance for my sundry needs as well as for medical care, so will you pl help me?". That is my pride.

I don't want to dwell on other issues lest it becomes unpleasant.
 
Let me ask you a simple question. I don't want to get personal. So let me assume I am the immigrant elderly parent of a US citizen and I have been sponsored by my adult child with an affidavit for financial support (without which the immigration would not have approved my GC). Now I live with my adult child's family---I get room, and board. My child tells me "I can't give you any cash allowance, and if you get sick I can't/won't pay for your medical expenses, you are on your own, if you can go get it from the government, please do so. Also you love your grandchildren and you may watch them when they are home while we are working". Now do I consider them the same kids that I spent my "blood, toil, tears and sweat" to raise them? Isn't it against TB culture? You may say that happens in India too nowadays. But I don't and won't stand for it. If that situation came up I'd pack my bags and go back to where I came from rather than go the US government and say "my adult child (who has a good income) refuses to pay any cash allowance for my sundry needs as well as for medical care, so will you pl help me?". That is my pride.

I don't want to dwell on other issues lest it becomes unpleasant.

Dear Mahakavi,

I am from India...But going through this I have the following to say:

I think you have missed the emotional part in the response of Somayaji...Most of the TB's would not llike to get cash alowance from their kids despite staying in their son/daughter's place & may be even doing baby sitting...They feel that looking after the grand children is part of their responsibility..If the Government is giving a dole what is wrong in claiming that...So long it is legal...


In Tamil Nadu during the last regime of DMK Color TV's & flood dole of Rs 2000 was given to all irrespective of caste & class...Does it mean that the rich people who have stood in Queue to collect the dole be ashamed of it...I don't think so..If it is equitable & fair as per law then let us now create acrimony out of it
 
Dear Mahakavi,

I think you have missed the emotional part in the response of Somayaji...Most of the TB's would not llike to get cash alowance from their kids despite staying in their son/daughter's place & may be even doing baby sitting...They feel that looking after the grand children is part of their responsibility..If the Government is giving a dole what is wrong in claiming that...So long it is legal...


In Tamil Nadu during the last regime of DMK Color TV's & flood dole of Rs 2000 was given to all irrespective of caste & class...Does it mean that the rich people who have stood in Queue to collect the dole be ashamed of it...I don't think so..If it is equitable & fair as per law then let us now create acrimony out of it

Mr. vgane"

If looking after the grandkids is part of the responsibility of the grandparents, it is equally and more of a responsibility of the adult children to open a checking account in the name of the grandparents and let the grandparents draw from that account for their personal expenses. I agree with you on the emotional part. They SHOULD NOT have to ask for allowance. The adult children MUST do this to avoid the embarrassment of their parents having to ask. Besides, the adult children are at fault for using their parents for babysitting without even paying minimum wage for such service (pl go and explore how much you have to pay for babysitting/nanny service/daycare, especially in metro areas in the northeast) but letting the grandparents go to Uncle Sam for sundry cash and medical care. You cannot have the cake and eat it too.

I agree it is the fault of the system to let such things happen. I am not questioning the legality of the procedure. I am questioning the conscience. As for rich people lining up to get a free color TV and cash dole in TN, it is equally despicable. That fact does not justify anybody going on the dole. Two wrongs do not make it right. It only adds up. I will tell them "if you want to suppress your conscience go ahead and do it". But it is not fair (legal or not). We cannot chant gAyatri mantra in one breath and go ahead and exploit the system. I will not if I were in that situation.

Remember mickles make a muckle. The Social Security system is broke. Let us not collapse it completely. No wonder Mr. Prasad is worrying about the Republicans depriving the legitimate seniors who worked and paid into the system their entitlement. These seniors paid into the system and will stand to lose if the payments are cut for them. For your information there are 44 million senior retirees in the US who worked all their life and paid into the system. When push comes to shove they have to be served first.

Having said all that, I still have sympathy for the elderly parents who come into the US. But I strongly feel it is the responsibility of the adult children to take care of them. If the parents need expensive medical care they should arrange to have such services done in India where using their dollars they can go quite far. Many US seniors go to countries like India on "medical vacation".
 
Last edited:
Vgane:-(quote) I think you have missed the emotional part in the response of Somayaji. (en-quote)

Sri.Vgane--Some people think when they lead a very comfortable and cozy life,the whole world leads such a comfortable and cozy life--they don't understand other's agony and pain.

Now I shall tell you my mental agony and pain. My daughter and son-in law were leading a very comfortable life for 13 years with their two children in USA.--My son-in-law as Junior Vice president of a company was making a fortune. We never had any inclination to settle in America,except for short visits (6 months). My son as an Indian Chartered Accountant was taking care of us VERY WELL.--with a Maruthi car and excellent Company lease house.

on June 10th,2006,at 13 ours--16 minutes--17 seconds my son-in law breathed his lost--after suffering 8 months with Glioblastomo multi forme relapse( a worst type of brain Cancer)--on heraing--I had a heart attack and a mild stroke also in India.First my son came to help them for radiation and chemotherapy.First my son-in law lost his job--then my son lost his Indian Lucrative job, due to long absence..America does not recognise Indian C.A. He is in some Accountant job--he is yet to clear his CPA and his wife cleared her CPA--living a little away where they could get jobs..

My daughter being--- I.I.T.-M.Tech and American Ph.D. manages HER family from her OWN income with 2 children as Science Professor. My wife takes care of her children at home and I give them a little Physical and Emotional support which my grand children (middle School- and Elementary School) badly need in the absence of their father.My daughter is NOT getting even 50% of what my son-in law was getting.

My daughter takes care of us VERY WELL.She has kept us very comfortable,both physically and emotionally within her financial limitations and committments..We do not need any "Pocket Money" for Our "SERVICE" to our own child and grandchildren.

My daughter-in law is also very understanding type.

Only a Lady Doctor,family friend of ours (M.D-T.B) told us "being Senior Citizens,you are "ELIGIBLE" for Medicare and that will lessen your daughter's financial burden."--She ONLY told us "You need Not have any sentimental hesitation--your son-in law has contributed a lot of money to SS from which your grand children get the Aid and your daughter,son and daughter -in law all are contributing to common SS pool.".

We do not go for Medical help every morning.Once in 2 to 3 months we go for trivial problems like cold -caugh--fever--pain etc.

Me and my wife have totally Lost faith in God.We are more afraid of God than "Love"him

But my daughter in spite of horoundous calamity, still believes Lord Hanuman and every Tuesday observes Near Fasting(a couple of bananas and a little milk--that too on our insistence,)(No Cultural aberration)

I feel that there is NO question of Cheating--Cultural Aberration etc.

I feel,I better STOP interacting in this thread .
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Mr. vgane"

If looking after the grandkids is part of the responsibility of the grandparents, it is equally and more of a responsibility of the adult children to open a checking account in the name of the grandparents and let the grandparents draw from that account for their personal expenses. I agree with you on the emotional part. They SHOULD NOT have to ask for allowance. The adult children MUST do this to avoid the embarrassment of their parents having to ask. Besides, the adult children are at fault for using their parents for babysitting without even paying minimum wage for such service (pl go and explore how much you have to pay for babysitting/nanny service/daycare, especially in metro areas in the northeast) but letting the grandparents go to Uncle Sam for sundry cash and medical care. You cannot have the cake and eat it too.

I agree it is the fault of the system to let such things happen. I am not questioning the legality of the procedure. I am questioning the conscience. As for rich people lining up to get a free color TV and cash dole in TN, it is equally despicable. That fact does not justify anybody going on the dole. Two wrongs do not make it right. It only adds up. I will tell them "if you want to suppress your conscience go ahead and do it". But it is not fair (legal or not). We cannot chant gAyatri mantra in one breath and go ahead and exploit the system. I will not if I were in that situation.

Remember mickles make a muckle. The Social Security system is broke. Let us not collapse it completely. No wonder Mr. Prasad is worrying about the Republicans depriving the legitimate seniors who worked and paid into the system their entitlement. These seniors paid into the system and will stand to lose if the payments are cut for them. For your information there are 44 million senior retirees in the US who worked all their life and paid into the system. When push comes to shove they have to be served first.

Having said all that, I still have sympathy for the elderly parents who come into the US. But I strongly feel it is the responsibility of the adult children to take care of them. If the parents need expensive medical care they should arrange to have such services done in India where using their dollars they can go quite far. Many US seniors go to countries like India on "medical vacation".

Dear Mahakavi Sir,

I still differ from you...In case Government does not want to create a barrier of class & made the distribution of doles be equitable there is nothing wrong in it..We should not unnecessarily bring our religion into it...May be you can say that in case a rich person claims it , he or she can probably gift it to another person who is in dire need & unable to get it (may be he does not have a ration card) as a Dhan....But do not brand the person who is taking the dole as someone unholy & do not question his intentions..
 
Vgane:-(quote) I think you have missed the emotional part in the response of Somayaji. (en-quote)

Sri.Vgane--Some people think when they lead a very comfortable and cozy life,the whole world leads such a comfortable and cozy life--they don't understand other's agony and pain.

Now I shall tell you my mental agony and pain. My daughter and son-in law were leading a very comfortable life for 13 years with their two children in USA.--My son-in-law as Junior Vice president of a company was making a fortune. We never had any inclination to settle in America,except for short visits (6 months). My son as an Indian Chartered Accountant was taking care of us VERY WELL.--with a Maruthi car and excellent Company lease house.

on June 10th,2006,at 13 ours--16 minutes--17 seconds my son-in law breathed his lost--after suffering 8 months with Glioblastomo multi forme relapse( a worst type of brain Cancer)--on heraing--I had a heart attack and a mild stroke also in India.First my son came to help them for radiation and chemotherapy.First my son-in law lost his job--then my son lost his Indian Lucrative job, due to long absence..America does not recognise Indian C.A. He is in some Accountant job--he is yet to clear his CPA and his wife cleared her CPA--living a little away where they could get jobs..

My daughter being--- I.I.T.-M.Tech and American Ph.D. manages HER family from her OWN income with 2 children as Science Professor. My wife takes care of her children at home and I give them a little Physical and Emotional support which my grand children (middle School- and Elementary School) badly need in the absence of their father.My daughter is NOT getting even 50% of what my son-in law was getting.

My daughter takes care of us VERY WELL.She has kept us very comfortable,both physically and emotionally within her financial limitations and committments..We do not need any "Pocket Money" for Our "SERVICE" to our own child and grandchildren.

My daughter-in law is also very understanding type.

Only a Lady Doctor,family friend of ours (M.D-T.B) told us "being Senior Citizens,you are "ELIGIBLE" for Medicare and that will lessen your daughter's financial burden."--She ONLY told us "You need Not have any sentimental hesitation--your son-in law has contributed a lot of money to SS from which your grand children get the Aid and your daughter,son and daughter -in law all are contributing to common SS pool.".

We do not go for Medical help every morning.Once in 2 to 3 months we go for trivial problems like cold -caugh--fever--pain etc.

Me and my wife have totally Lost faith in God.We are more afraid of God than "Love"him

But my daughter in spite of horoundous calamity, still believes Lord Hanuman and every Tuesday observes Near Fasting(a couple of bananas and a little milk--that too on our insistence,)(No Cultural aberration)

I feel that there is NO question of Cheating--Cultural Aberration etc.

I feel,I better STOP interacting in this thread .


Dear Somayaji,

Your story is heartrending...It was an emotional trauma that you & your family members have undergone...

We should not ascribe motives to ones actions...

We definitely cherish your postings...Wishing your family members all the very best.
 
Sri.Vgane--Some people think when they lead a very comfortable and cozy life,the whole world leads such a comfortable and cozy life--they don't understand other's agony and pain

Mr. Somayaji, I am not a heartless monster. I am not living in an ivory tower as to be oblivious of suffering in the outside world. Where compassion is required I will be the first one to step in, having suffered very early in my life when I lost my father and sole economic means at the age of 17 in India. After years of agony I overcame adversity. As Shakespeare said, "Sweet are the uses of adversity". Pl keep that in mind and teach it to your grand kids.


on June 10th,2006,at 13 ours--16 minutes--17 seconds my son-in law breathed his lost--after suffering 8 months with Glioblastomo multi forme ( a worst type of brain Cancer)--on heraing--I had a heart attack and a mild stroke also in India.First my son came in 2005 to help them for radiation and chemotherapy.First my son-in law lost his job--then my son lost his Indian Lucrative job, due to long absence..America does not recognise Indian C.A. He is in some Accountant job--he is yet to clear his CPA and his wife cleared her CPA--living a little away where they could get jobs.

I am awfully sorry to hear about this tragic happening in your family. You see for some people suffering appears to be innate. Who said life is fair?

My daughter being--- I.I.T.-M.Tech and American Ph.D. manages HER family from her income with 2 children as Science Professor. My wife takes care of her children at home and I give them a little Physical and Emotional support which my grand children (middle School- and Elementary School) badly need in the absence of their father.My daughter is NOT getting even 50% of what my son-in law was getting.

I too did my Ph.D and worked in Universities and did academic research in this country at less than optimal income (common handicap to immigrants 20-30 years ago). It is an occupational hazard if you work in the academia. Now let me not dwell on that anymore.

My daughter takes care of us VERY WELL.She has kept us very comfortable,physically and emotionally..We do not need any "Pocket Money" for Our "SERVICE" to our own child and grandchildren.

My daughter-in law is also very understanding type.

Only a Doctor family friend of ours (M.D-T.B) told us "being Senior Citizens,you are "ELIGIBLE" for Medicare and that will lessen your daughter's burden.--She ONLY told us "You need Not have any hesitation--your son-in law has contributed a lot of money to SS from which your grand children get the Aid and your daughter,son and daughter -in law all are contributing.

OK, you were listening to some third party advice. But the doctor was using the wrong reasoning. If someone contributes at the rate of 6.2% of his/her income (this year it is only 4.2%) with an upper limit of $110K, that contribution is just a drop in the ocean when it comes to be distributed to all the retirees who are entitled to receive benefits. So the contribution of an adult child towards the benefit of his/her parent is just one millionth of a penny when you consider the money going into the pool to be distributed to all the beneficiaries. Almost $50 billion is distributed to the beneficiaries every month. It is a poor justification on that doctor's part.

We do not go for Medical help every day.Once in 2 to 3 months we go for trivial problems like cold -caugh--

I feel that there is NO question of Cheating--Cultural aberration etc.

I feel,I better STOP interacting in this thread.

Your situation does not fit the standard claim made by all others. I am convinced you are not motivated to "milk" the US government considering your circumstances. My gripe is against lots of others who offer the slightest excuse to abuse the system such as "we pay into the system and hence we can let our parents use it" since that hypothesis does not hold water based on the economics I mentioned earlier. Pl accept my apologies if I hurt your sentiments (unintentionally, of course).
 
hi
we have day care for elders in our area....all the inmates are GUJARATIS....its for indian seniors...i dont think anybody contributed
to SS and medicare benefits....but are getting SS and medicare benefits...its better to apply for SS and medicare through
some day care organisations...they take care of paperwork/legal work....many gujaratis elders dont know english at alll....
they speak only Gujarati.....still they get social service benefits...they help each other....
 
hi
we have day care for elders in our area....all the inmates are GUJARATIS....its for indian seniors...i dont think anybody contributed
to SS and medicare benefits....but are getting SS and medicare benefits...its better to apply for SS and medicare through
some day care organisations...they take care of paperwork/legal work....many gujaratis elders dont know english at alll....
they speak only Gujarati.....still they get social service benefits...they help each other....

Inmates are usually in the jail, nursing homes have residents, daycares have visitors.
But Mr. Mahakavi's point is still valid. I have feeling that some of the loopholes will be eliminated. So enjoy it till it is available and legal.
Mr. Mahakavi is right about declaring the babysitting service of the elders. Legally speaking that must be monetized and declared for Income purpose. Similarly boarding and lodging too needs to be monetized. That is what is expected in an American system. If the children gave their assurance of supporting their parents, it should have some value.
All said and done like I said before, if no law is broken go ahead and use it.
 
mahakavi said:
I am not an expert on immigration and immigrant visa work situation. It is a law that if anybody is on a payroll in the US, social security deduction is compulsory whether the person works for a few years or permanently.

I know it is the law. Clearly we are not only discussing what is legal but also what is moral. Your gripe, if I may so so, against elderly immigrants using SSI benefits is that they did not work in US and pay into the system. If that is considered amoral, then asking non-immigrants to pay into a system meant only for citizens and immigrants is also amoral. Isn't it?

mahakavi said:
What if it is not deducted and the person manages to convert his non-immigrant visa into an immigrant visa a few years down the road and stays in the country permanently? That will be illegal, won't it? So to forestall that possibility the deduction is made whether the person would be able to use the benefits in the future or not.

I have no problem in making immigrants pay SS. SS payments should start after non-immigrants convert to immigrants!
 
கால பைரவன்;145030 said:
I know it is the law. Clearly we are not only discussing what is legal but also what is moral. Your gripe, if I may so so, against elderly immigrants using SSI benefits is that they did not work in US and pay into the system. If that is considered amoral, then asking non-immigrants to pay into a system meant only for citizens and immigrants is also amoral. Isn't it?



I have no problem in making immigrants pay SS. SS payments should start after non-immigrants convert to immigrants!

Now legally everybody earning a living in US must pay FICA. That is the rule, if you do not like it there is no compulsion that you have to work in USA. It might be immoral to ask non-immigrant to pay FICA, but it is illegal not to pay. US regulation is not going to be changed for that.

So there is no tit for tat on that matter.
If an US citizen relinquishes his citizenship, he/she too stop getting SS benefits, even if they have paid FICA.
 
கால பைரவன்;145030 said:
I know it is the law. Clearly we are not only discussing what is legal but also what is moral. Your gripe, if I may so so, against elderly immigrants using SSI benefits is that they did not work in US and pay into the system. If that is considered amoral, then asking non-immigrants to pay into a system meant only for citizens and immigrants is also amoral. Isn't it?

The government does not care about morality. It is only concerned with legality. Morality issues are dealt with on individual basis or group basis which is what we are doing here. So if the government takes its cut from a non-immigrant worker's paycheck for FICA, it is with the intention of including that worker for future SS benefit payments. If that worker leaves the system the paid money cannot be withdrawn. As I said before if the status is converted the deductions made earlier count towards future benefits.

There are certain private provisions available to get compensation for the deduction. As I said before it has to be negotiated with the company you work for. For example when a US worker working for a company is transferred from one location to the other the company pays for the moving expenses but by law they have to include it in the income of the worker and taxes must be withheld from that extra income. This is a hardship for the employee since he did not ask to be moved. So the company calculates the tax owed on that extra income and adds an additional amount to the employee paycheck. A similar provision is also made to pay a pre-tax transportation allowance for certain employees who work in crowded cities but commute from far away suburbs due to housing problems in the city.

So the issue you raise is not a moral issue but a thorny financial one nevertheless. It has to be dealt with the company concerned. If they refuse to accommodate the only option is to quit. Nobody is forcing anyone to work under such circumstances. if the company values the employee they would raise the salary. The government or the company does not worry about morality issues when the law governs.


I have no problem in making immigrants pay SS. SS payments should start after non-immigrants convert to immigrants!

The current law does not differentiate between the two classes since the uniformity of deduction is the primary rule. In order to differentiate between the two a separate law has to be enacted which is not on the radar of Congress. If you think about it there are lots of issues in the country concerning different groups of people that the law needs to be changed. Only those which are actively lobbied or vote-getting ones are taken up by Congress. What you are stating is a minor blip nobody would pick up in the halls of Congress. In the mean time I'd talk to the company concerned. They can work out a deal.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Latest ads

Back
Top