Is the caste system weakness of Hinduism?

[Ramraj]

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If a Tamizh Brahmin wakes up in Morning and does Santhyavandam, in Afternoon does Archanai to PerumaaL, and in the evening hurts somebody(mariyathai is the key word) then there is no purpose of doing rituals.

I have made mistakes, I have asked for forgiveness. Admitting one's mistakes is supreme thing that one can do.

RR-The Fighter.

 

[sangom]

Which Secluded Sulking Child are you talking about Mr. Swami.

God is with me, I don't need anybody else, even Sangomji who has decided to stop supporting me. Rightly so. If I was in his position I would have done it much earlier. I don't blame you Shri Sangom ji.

Shri Ramraj alias Meerkat,

It pains me when you allege that I have stopped supporting you. Earlier also you said once that I was not responding to your posts and I tried, to the best of my ability, to explain to you. Now also I do not know why you accuse me of "having stopped supporting" you. Will you kindly explain?

 

[Ramraj]

I will respond to you sir after the ban is lifted 7.30.

 

[happyhindu]

I feel the best and most effective way of educating brahmins is to make them more and more aware of the actual meaning and contents of our scriptures and spiritual lore which will make them see the light; right now many have blind belief and that is the real difficulty.

But Sir, who is a brahmin? Which definition (of which school) should we accept?

Sir, i humbly ask you these clarification / questions:
1) Shd educating people in scriptures be restricted to present-day brahmins alone?

2) Can anyone say for sure that non-brahmins did not pass themselves off as brahmins (in colonial times or earlier than that)?

3) Is there any guarantee that the present-day brahmins are those who descended from the vedic period?

4) More importantly, did the vedas prohibit vedic learning to non-brahmins?

Regards.

 

[Vivek_V]

Correction To Be Made

I had said earlier that Shankaracharya of Kanchi didn't have message against untouchability, but this link of the Hindu tells me he did.

The Hindu : `Hinduism does not subscribe to untouchability'

There is one ambiguity though. In the documentary I watched, he seemed to support untouchability which is why I am confused over what his true opinion is. I would like if any members could clearly point out what steps the mutt has taken to fight untouchability, because its mentioned in the link.

My stance is that all people should be given a chance to learn formal education and the scriptures along with the discipline of life. In this way, the social structure of society should naturally come out from the strengths of individuals and not their births.

 

[psnvasan]

Hi All, I will try explain why untouchability was appreciated in Hindu Dharma. In fact, Untouchability is a wrong word. It should be called Madi and Achara.

I believe you all know about the various bodies we possess. The one we see here is the Physical body. We have some subtle bodies around us, called Suksma Sharira and others. Mind is one of these shariras, where our ego and other recordings get accumulated. People possess both good energy and evil energy. Evil energy is called black energy (full of Rajo and Tamo Guna). It is known that flow of negative charged particles (electrons) is called current. So, always negatives flow towards positive. This is general theory. So, when we hand shake or touch each other, a person who is Satvic and pure may get the black energies transferred, which can turn them Rajo/Tamasic.

You might have heard our ancestors saying, don't touch others. Don't eat from others etc. Even when some of them go for a marriage, they won't take food there. You might have seen that our grand parents never allowed others to touch them. This is the reason. Just stand in front of a mirror and watch closely the profile of your head in high power light. You will find one of these layers in white color over your head. This is the vital layer. Similarly there are other layers which can be seen only by Gyanis but not common man. When a person dies, he leaves only his physical body. All other astral bodies including mind are carried away with him. He continues his practices in next birth also. This is called Purava jenma vasana.

The conclusion is we should not touch others to keep our mind pure. Other wise, the mind may get corrupted through black energies and the satvic may deviate from his path. No human should touch other. But, it is not practically possible in this age. So, the solution is, chant the name of your Kula Deiva or Ishta Deiva while touching others, so all such energies will be diluted.

One thing should be noted here: Untoucahbility does not come by birth or kula. It is common to all. If a Sudra is an untoucable for a Bramin, then a Brahmin is also an untouchable for sudra. So, every one is untoucable for another irrespective of kula/ varnashrama.

But, we can touch and hug within the families as all tend to have same frequency. i.e. If your parents are satvic, then they grow you in a good way and there is high probability that you will also be satvic. Please read the below article.

Handshakes - spiritual perspective

 

[B.Krishnamurthy]

M/s Happy Hindu,
Mr.T.N.Kesavan has made a detailed posting on "Manusmriti" in Tamil in the thread 'Thought for. the Day' under 'General Discussions.It answers all your queries in post no 1029.
According to him Manusmriti permits people of all Varnas to learn 'Vedas'
I have no knowledge on this subject you may seek clarifications from mr.T.N.Kesavan.Since

 

[ganeshrev]

Shri Swami

I also reciprocate the same - i wish you would see my POV.

I also come form the same region and have seen how my relatives have mistreated all other caste people.And thinking back, if I were in their position , I would feel very hurt.(In fact I, a smartha, was treated by an Iyengar family in Trichy the same way- albeit in a smaller proportion - by taking the flower I had bought for their house after sprinkling water on the flowers) And treating them the way they were treated is wrong .This is my POV.

Here in this forum - people feel hurt due to verbal duals due to different point of view and they refuse to participate ! And we do not acknowledge that the other human beings will be hurt due to the behavior of the certain/most members of the community and more over , they are proud !

What a pity!

But this would be my last post reg this subject.I came in support of Mr BK because I thought he was attacked tangentially.Since he him self has quit this subject , I see no point in trying to make my POV more lucid.

Thank you for your patience.

Regards
Revathi

 

[B.Krishnamurthy]

To Mrs.Ganeshrev,
I thank you for understanding my viewpoint and explaining my views in a lucid way.

To Shri.SwamiTaBra,
please refer to my post no:875(12/12/2010) and your response in your post no:880(13/12/2010).I would like to consider All Hindus
whether in India,America, Malaysia or any other part of the Globe as my brothers and sisters. There is nothing wrong in trying to know their viewpont as it is mainly relating to our religion.
HAF (HINDU AMERICAN FOUNDATION) has released Landmark Human Rights Report on Caste-Based Discriminations among practisioners of
Hindu Faith.The report is available in www.haf site.org(www.hafsite.org)

 

[saarangam]

.It is known that flow of negative charged particles (electrons) is called current. So, always negatives flow towards positive. This is general theory.

Dear psnvasan
The original article cited by you does not mention about electrons and electron current.I think it is your contribution to the post. As a student of Physics I may state that there are
positively charged particles like protons and positrons which move towards the negative.
Let us don't have a fusion of pure science and religion or spirituality as it would lead to lot of ambiguities.

 

[psnvasan]

Dear Sarangam, I may be wrong, as i am not well versed with Physics like you. But, this is what i studied in +2 Physics. If this is wrong, then its not my fault but the fault of our education system. I learnt that positives are nothing but the holes as per Physics terminology. Electrons flow towards these holes and completes the process. There may be an alternate as you say. I am not sure. I request you to read the below link.

Electrical Current - definition of electrical current

Anyway, i think combining science and religion are not wrong. In fact, science was combined with spirituality in olden days and we are in pitiable condition that everything our ancestors knew are being re-discovered. I can give many examples to you.

Anyway, i am writing a book of my own on "Practicality in Hinduism". There, i will explain the science and logical reasoning behind each and every practice in Hinduism. I will use science as a tool in religions and will prove that science is totally deviated from spirituality now days which will yield less results whereas it was combined with spirituality in ancient times. Science was a way of living and spirituality was used for working towards salvation in olden days.

Apart from all, let us stick to central idea of the post and try to understand what is Madi and Achara. Though positives can flow as you said, negatives can also flow. Any scientist can't deny that.

But, thanks for your advice. I learnt that science concept should be verified completely before writing anything. But, i dis-agree that science should not be combined with religion.

 

[Nara]

In fact, Untouchability is a wrong word. It should be called Madi and Achara.

Sir, you are correct, in a perverse way, "untouchability" is the wrong word. It has never been anything to do with touching, it has always been about maintaining establishment power structure. This hierarchical system is about appropriating all the sublime qualities for themselves, those occupying the top rungs of the hierarchy, and obliging people on the bottom rungs to accept, well, even make them believe in the nonsense quite sincerely, that they are suffused with such repugnant qualities as sloth and filth. Madi and Achara are mere leaves of this poisonous tree called varna-ashrama dharma.

Apart from all, let us stick to central idea of the post and try to understand what is Madi and Achara. Though positives can flow as you said, negatives can also flow. Any scientist can't deny that.

Positives and negatives are mere terminologies, they do not carry inherent anthropomorphic value attached to them as in மடி and விழுப்பு.

A related question that arises in this context is, why should மடி lose its madiness and become விழுப்பு when it comes into contact with விழுப்பு? There are two other possibilities, (i) விழுப்பு can become மடி when it comes in contact with மடி, or (ii) மடி and விழுப்பு can maintain their status, unaffected by contact between the two.

I learnt that science concept should be verified completely before writing anything. But, i dis-agree that science should not be combined with religion.

This is not a matter to just agree or disagree. Science is about the process of discovery, a means to understand the world around us. Religion is about believing, faith in handed down dogma, having definitive answers for everything without a shred of evidence, and also, it is about salvation, life after death, etc., etc. In other words, if what you believe in மடி and விழுப்பு can be used as an analogy here, science is மடி and religion is விழுப்பு, when science comes into contact with religion, it is no longer science.

Cheers!

 

[Vivek_V]

@ Sri Psnvasan - Is Cleaniless and Immunity the Issue?

"I believe you all know about the various bodies we possess. The one we see here is the Physical body. We have some subtle bodies around us, called Suksma Sharira and others. Mind is one of these shariras, where our ego and other recordings get accumulated. People possess both good energy and evil energy. Evil energy is called black energy (full of Rajo and Tamo Guna). It is known that flow of negative charged particles (electrons) is called current. So, always negatives flow towards positive. This is general theory. So, when we hand shake or touch each other, a person who is Satvic and pure may get the black energies transferred, which can turn them Rajo/Tamasic."

It is because of pseudo-intellectual nonsense like this that the brahmin community will always be regarded as superstitious. No offense to you psnvasan, but how are you going to justify it to people who don't buy your theory. Certain people have been insulted and ill-treated by this system - appealing to their emotions is what I am asking. How can a sattvic person, truly sattvic be affected merely by the hug or touch of another?

"Even when some of them go for a marriage, they won't take food there. You might have seen that our grand parents never allowed others to touch them. This is the reason."

The story of Utanga, who was Krishna's brahmin friend is about the moral that a truely realized man is not affected by such petty things of externals. He has surpassed those. When sages used to travel on bare foot across lands, they don't get five-star treatment - they should have transcended aversion from foods coming from unclean places. Thus a truly sattvic person shouldn't become affected by hugging tamasic or any individual.
In any case, if the issue about untouchability is cleanliness or that foods of a certain kind are unhealthy, or that foods from some place can affect weak immunity, that can very well be explained, instead of building theories like the one above. A person who has grown drinking clean water all life will not have a naturalized immune system to handle the water slum people drink - this has to be explained.

"Just stand in front of a mirror and watch closely the profile of your head in high power light. You will find one of these layers in white color over your head. This is the vital layer. Similarly there are other layers which can be seen only by Gyanis but not common man. When a person dies, he leaves only his physical body. All other astral bodies including mind are carried away with him. He continues his practices in next birth also. This is called Purava jenma vasana. .....
........The conclusion is we should not touch others to keep our mind pure. Other wise, the mind may get corrupted through black energies and the satvic may deviate from his path. No human should touch other. But, it is not practically possible in this age. So, the solution is, chant the name of your Kula Deiva or Ishta Deiva while touching others, so all such energies will be diluted."

Okay, while this is some theory or what is traditionally held that is fine. But let me ask you: What do you think we should do about the practice of untouchability and what is our community's (brahmin) message to the world on what castes are? Our scriptures tell us that caste is not by birth, you too have said that in your post. So wouldn't that mean all people, irrespective of where they have been born should be given a chance to get educated?

Regards,
Vivek.

 

[psnvasan]

Vivekji

You have told every thing point by point, what i had written and gave explanations. But, you missed one thing which i indicated.

If a Sudra is an untoucable for a Bramin, then a Brahmin is also an untouchable for sudra. So, every one is untoucable for another irrespective of kula/ varnashrama.

This itself suffices to show that i recommend every one should be equally respected. I agree that every one should be given education. I had also given the solution already. I asked you to just chant the name of Lord when touching each other. By doing it, you can hug or shake hands or what ever you want to do. Does canting the name of God in one's heart hurt others? He in fact don't even know that you are chanting, while touching him.

These are not superstitions. I asked you to observe your profile in front of a mirror. Can't you see a layer around your head? Did you try that first? If this is superstition, then can you explain in your language, what is the one i indicated. Also, i can give you proofs from Gazette of Madras that souls exist even after death.

There is no use that a Satvic being Atheist. One may be Satvic. Unless he chants the name of Lord while touching, he will not be an exemption to these energies. Udhanga was a Rishi. For that matter, any Rishi will chant the names all the times. This is the justification i give for my point.

I agree that so many were hurt because of Brahmin's mis-understanding of this theory. Ancestors who told them about untouchability didn't tell the back ground to the society. The solution i propose is, we have to spread the logical reasoning behind this among people who believe they belong to superior community and should make them understand that they are also untouchables for whom they feel are untoucables. Then, we have to ask every one to chant the name of the Lord they like, while touching each other.

People usually feel everything they don't like as superstitions. But, they fail to think why this came into practice. People those who were intermediate might have blindly followed. But, the one who started this should have had some reason behind. Please keep your mind open and analyze everything for logical reasoning behind.

Thank you.

 

[psnvasan]

Shri Nara

I know that no one will be ready to analyze any logical reasoning, when people have fixed their mind that what they have learnt is correct. What ever is against one's modern belief will be called superstitions. There is nothing like Hierarchy in Varnashrama Dharma. Do you know Vedas? Purusha Suktha says all four Varnas came from Bramha. All are same. It is only the job they do classify them. It is better to say that one is Kshatriya or Brahmana based on job, rather than filling lot of information in forms like Hindu, BC/OBC etc. Ok. I am not willing to speak more on this, as i am not idle to debate each and every thing. Taking it into consideration or not is your wish. Let my superstition lye with myself. No issues.

The theory of Spirituality is proved by science of today. Nothing is wrong, though they are theories. But, science of today fails some times, in spite of lot of instruments. A few examples for you, in available time.

1. Andal sings in Tiruppavai, "Velli Ezhundu Vyazhan Urangitru", means, "When Venus rises, Jupiter sets". Ask an astronomer. He will tell you the same thing, with the help of a Telescope. But, this is astronomical truth.

2. Pragalatha listened to stories from Naratha, while in his mother's uterus. It is proved today in Japan that baby in mother's womb can listen to music.

3. Kambar in Ramayana says, "Sadha Kooritta Conilum Ulan". Cone means atom. Even when atom is split into 100 pieces, Rama lives in all those. So, concept of atom was also known.

4. Astras like Bramhastra has properties equivalent to nuclear bombs of today.

5. During eclips, people use dry grasses (Darbai) in all consumables and had a practice of taking bath after eclipse. Haven't you heard that modern scientists say, there are probabilities that germs can be formed during eclipse? Dry grass is antobiotic. Taking bath is also to maintain health.

6. Bramha Muhurtha is 3 to 6 am. But, it is the time when you get pure oxygen for healthy life.

Many many many examples like this. I can go on saying. But, i will stop here due to lack of time. The point is, scientists of today, don't know to the extent to what our ancestors knew. It is pitiable that we are re-discovering every thing with the help of instruments and proving our ancestors points again on other way.

I am sure that our systems were 100 percent correct and pure in the ancient times. It is only those who lived in past 300 to 400 years corrupted the society without understanding the back ground. Even practices like Sathi, Dis-respecting & uneducating women were followed recently. Do you know how much importance does Vedas give for Women. Vedas respect women as God.

 

[psnvasan]

To All,

I wish to conclude saying that, Untouchability was started with a valid logic, but mis-understood by Brahmins and was not at all understood by others. So, it better to remove this, when this is corrupted and mis-understood in this age. Education does not have relation with this concept in this age. Every one including girls should be educated.

But at the same time, those who agree with the logical reasoning i gave, please take preventive measures to protect yourselves. The preventive measure is very simple and will never hurt others. With this, you can destroy untouchability at the same time fulfill the logic behind that. This is not only for Brahmins but also for non-brahmins who touch Brahmins.

Those who don't believe. I am really sorry. I have no clue to explain you. I can only pity on you.

Thank you.

 

[Nara]

....I wish to conclude saying that,

Does this mean you don't want me to challenge you on the total lack of logic in the reply (post #1040) you have posted? That is what it sounds like and therefore I won't bother you, and others, with a reply.

Those who don't believe. I am really sorry. I have no clue to explain you. I can only pity on you.

Who is to pity whom? As the time for his execution neared, Socrates is supposed to have said this to his young friends:

The hour of departure has arrived, and we go our ways - I to die, and you to live. Which is better God only knows.
​

As you reject the rest of us with your pity, who is more to be pitied, who is to say?

 

[psnvasan]

Dear Friend Nara,

I didn't write the post to reject some one or hurt some one. Challenging is also not a problem. I mean to say it in common. I am aged 27. But, i am very sad that today's youth are challenging every thing they don't like. Who am i to force some one to believe some thing? In fact, my Guru's main upadesam to me is "don't do any upadesa to others and spoil your peace. Tell for only who ask you." But, i can't tolerate the path the society travels. Thinking about my salvation alone looks like selfishness for me. My main objective is to induce the thought of salvation in others also, through Hindu way, as it is the best. Ancestors found logic for every thing and maintained a very healthy system. Due to some mis-understanding in medieval period, all ancient things are said to be superstitions.

I found that the objective of today's youth is to object everything, with out having a second thought that there may be some logic behind. Ofcourse we need to care about others feelings, who are hurt by untouchability. But, we can't call beliefs as superstitions. We need to find logic and make people clear about our practices. If some thing is against people's thought, they simply call it superstition. They never believe in the logic others explain nor think themselves about a logic. What ever is against us are superstitions.

I fear that after 100 years, if our grand children feel lazy to do Sandhya Vandhana, they will say Gayathri is superstition. If they don't have time to go to temple, they will say, going to temples is waste of time and superstitions. Where is my society going? When parents of today don't correct themselves, their grand children will totally forget our practices.

It is assumed that there are number of holes in Hinduism. Hinduism is split into several categories and we fight within ourselves and pave way for other religions to trash Hinduism. My intention of finding logic to every thing is to explain that Hinduism is not something formed by some one going on street. It is a way of living and has a strong back ground. But, all the logics though some are proved, are still called superstitions by modern youth. What can i do other than pitiying on the society?

These things will again lead to Kalki Avatar which neither i nor you can stop. Even when some one says this is superstition, it will happen. My only prayer to God is i must die soon and attain Salvation to win re-birth before my society goes more and more worse, as i am not ready to see the Hinduism, a beautiful building built by ancestors with a strong foundation, falling flat on the ground because of the mentality of today's youth and other religions. I like all religions and respect all. But, i hate conversions especially forceful conversions that are happening today.

So many of us don't know the activities of other religions happening at the back ground. Many people are getting converted. Other religions raising the questions about the logic in our practices. When we ourselves say these are superstitions, this becomes much easier for conversions and the people those who convert say, i convert because there is no logic in Hinduism practices. What can i do other than pitying on the way we are travelling.

After 300 years, when this continues, all temples would have been demolished. Our grand children won't even have independence to follow the religion they wish. You or me will be no more available to pity on them. But, no one except God can change their pitiable condition. Outsiders are not destroying us. We are bringing our believes to destruction ourselves.

Anyway, i am sorry if i have hurted you in anyway. Don't take it personally. Its a common statement. Those are just outcomes of my emotional feelings, that i could not contribute to growth of Hinduism as Hindus themselves don't believe Hinduism. Even in temples, worship for material benefits is growing. most became selfish. God is used as money yielding machine and a Doctor for diseases. If some prayers didn't come true, they forget about karmas and start saying God is superstition finally becoming ateist. No one cares about Salvation or have true love on God. Concept of salvation is also called superstition by so many people. If some one could not explain the concept behind some thing, the name given for that practice is superstition.

I am just a new joiner and may not be of much worth to Tamil Brahmin community. Means, i am here today and i am very busy in writing books on Hinduism. So, i may leave also tomorrow. But, you seem to be a good contributor for this community. Please ignore my previous posts and continue writing. But, think once about the impact of your message on Hinduism and where will it take us.

 

[Brahmanyan]

I am not a learned scientist, neither do I know any thing about "various bodies" we posses . I am a simple human being striving my best in my life to become a good human being first and last. For me there is nothing greater than compassion and love towards another living being. Who are these untouchables about whom we are discussing? They are human beings just like you and me. Unfortunately for the simple reason they are born to the poor parents belonging to so called "unclean caste" they have been/are denied their rightful place in our society. They have to face utter humiliation in the form of untouchability throughout their life. denying one's self respect is the worst form of humiliation any one could face. Gandhiji called these "unclean people" as Harijans (children of Hari). By the unfair diktats of the so called upper caste these "unclean" people had to take over the menial jobs like sweeping, scavenging and collecting night soil to keep our places clean for living. I feel that untouchability in any form is a sin. Let us strive our best to eradicate this unholy practice if it is continued any where for any reason.

"I consider untouchability to be a heinous crime against humanity. It is not a sign of self-restraint, but an arrogant assumption of superiority." - Gandhiji in Young India, Dec. 8, 1920.


Regards,
Brahmanyan,
Bangalore

 

[Vivek_V]

@ Sri Psnvasan (1)

"But at the same time, those who agree with the logical reasoning i gave, please take preventive measures to protect yourselves. The preventive measure is very simple and will never hurt others. With this, you can destroy untouchability at the same time fulfill the logic behind that. This is not only for Brahmins but also for non-brahmins who touch Brahmins."

Your logic included some mention of negative-energies and all. What you haven't explained is how the mind of a sattvic person changes on hugging or touching others. I find little logic in your reasoning, when you prescribe "preventive measures to protect" ourselves.

You can clarify who is a brahmin and who is a non-brahmin; by what virtue are they decided?

"But, you missed one thing which i indicated. If a Sudra is an untoucable for a Bramin, then a Brahmin is also an untouchable for sudra. So, every one is untoucable for another irrespective of kula/ varnashrama."

That doesn't make a difference to the present form of untouchability. See, you first explain if the issue is about uncleanliness. If not please explain how a man of sattvic qualities will lose them if he comes in contact with others. If difference castes considered each other untouchable, it clearly hinders the progress of the society itself.

"I had also given the solution already. I asked you to just chant the name of Lord when touching each other. By doing it, you can hug or shake hands or what ever you want to do."

It is because of thinking that you will get polluted on touching someone that untouchability came to practice. I am not concerned with a solution to this "problem", the real problem I am facing is having to do with such thought in members of our community. No wonder we will be considered superstitious.

"There is no use that a Satvic being Atheist. One may be Satvic. Unless he chants the name of Lord while touching, he will not be an exemption to these energies."

I am not an atheist. But explain how good qualities in a person can be so fickle, so as to exit their character when they touch someone. If good qualities can only be so weak in a person, I can hardly say its been established in him.

"People usually feel everything they don't like as superstitions. But, they fail to think why this came into practice. People those who were intermediate might have blindly followed. But, the one who started this should have had some reason behind."

Yes, discriminating others was the reason! I can see the sadistic pleasure many high castes gain by this when I see documentaries on untouchability.

At one point even brahmins kept lands (like other upper castes) and made lower castes toil on them day and night. The very food they were eating was touched year after year by the lower castes ! Tell me how your logic comes. You may say - "Chant the name of the lord and so-and-so energies will come back". But please explain how touching will make someone lose their qualities.

"What ever is against one's modern belief will be called superstitions."

You are telling me sattvic qualities of a person are fickle and go away on touching someone. Does a truly good person become debauched or lose his virtues on interacting with others? I don't want to sound disrespectful to you, so explain how a person of true sattvic qualities can lose them on merely touching others.

 

[Vivek_V]

@ Sri Psnvasan (2)

"1. Andal sings in Tiruppavai, "Velli Ezhundu Vyazhan Urangitru", means, "When Venus rises, Jupiter sets". Ask an
astronomer. He will tell you the same thing, with the help of a Telescope. But, this is astronomical truth.
2. Pragalatha listened to stories from Naratha, while in his mother's uterus. It is proved today in Japan that baby in
mother's womb can listen to music.
3. Kambar in Ramayana says, "Sadha Kooritta Conilum Ulan". Cone means atom. Even when atom is split into 100 pieces,
Rama lives in all those. So, concept of atom was also known.
4. Astras like Bramhastra has properties equivalent to nuclear bombs of today.
5. During eclips, people use dry grasses (Darbai) in all consumables and had a practice of taking bath after eclipse. Haven't
you heard that modern scientists say, there are probabilities that germs can be formed during eclipse? Dry grass is
antobiotic. Taking bath is also to maintain health.
6. Bramha Muhurtha is 3 to 6 am. But, it is the time when you get pure oxygen for healthy life."

All these and similar things have been repeated a number of times my friend. But you tell me who will believe in our technical supremacy like they do of the West's?

All the rhetroical questions like "if brahmins are the intellects of society why don't they cure diseases?", "why didn't they
develop technology to defend our nation?", "why are we in poverty?" etc. will continue to exist. As a community, we
claim respect by tradition, but unless we act up to what we are supposed to do, natural respect won't come.

Every anti-brahmin organization with whom I have interacted, amidst revile and spite, only to understand what they think and why, speaks against us as being superstitious and that is because our assumptions are not pratically proved.

As a community we are still by haunted by the spectre of having let down our civilization, as individuals we need to know this. We did well by preserving our literary heritage like the Vedas, but we didn't develop society in technical aspects, nor did we defend our civilization (goes to the kshatriya classes as well) because of division WITHIN our society itself.

Being a brahmin I can say many aspects of brahmin life are very good and healthy, the brahmins of the past understood that. But we are hardly in a position to go talking about atom-splitting and nuclear sciences when we didn't take that knowledge (if we had it) to have created weapons to defend our land from foreigners. I have read about the Mahabharata and about the weapons described in it myself, and must say that if its a true accounts its spectacular. But given that we didn't pioneer the field, speaking like we knew nuclear technology will come of to others as a joke and they will dismiss you as a fanatic. This is the truth of the matter.

"I am sure that our systems were 100 percent correct and pure in the ancient times. It is only those who lived in past 300 to 400 years corrupted the society without understanding the back ground. Even practices like Sathi, Dis-respecting & uneducating women were followed recently."

I agree wth this. It is definitely true that our early society was much better before and got degraded.

But there was a lot of questioning, and not mere acceptance to teachings in the early society too - which is why so many schools of thinking existed. We have to start going back to that sort of thinking because from that only the true strength of intellect is built, from which society can be made to flourish.

Merely accepting things done by so-and-so ancestor, merely in reverance for them, will not lead us to be up-to-date in the present era in order to progress as a society.

Regards,
Vivek.

 

[Vivek_V]

@ Sri Brahmanyan

"Who are these untouchables about whom we are discussing? They are human beings just like you and me."

Kudos to you Brahmanyan! I was happy reading this.

Regards,
Vivek.

 

[SwamiTaBra]

Dear Sri. Meerkat/RR,

I think you are referring to me. This is RR. Today 7.30 Onwards I will be back under the pseudonym "Meerkat".

I think I was right from the beginning. This post of yours is evidence of the way you have been isolating me. Thank you for the confirmation.

I can fight seclusion all right.
God is with me, I don't need anybody else.

Wow, a misdirected indignation.
I was referring to the venerable member who has over 2000 posts to his credit and has ostensibly quit the forum and entreaties are flying around to bring him back. I stand by the phrase "sulking child".

Swami ji this post of yours is why unity among tamil Brahmins can't be achieved.

Surprising.
It is the attitude of that venerable member and some of his ilk who seek to run down even what remain little precious within the brahmin community, who all Saidevo referred as ones "abundantly opiniated" in the forum Agraharams. Also it the same venerable member who practically calls for dissolution of the brahmin community as he believes no good can be achieved for hinduism or for humanity with the legacy of brahminhood. You should be discerning enough to know where the solvent is.

P.S- Request you Shri/Respected Swami ji/Sir to please use better words. Its apparent that when you said sulking, secluded you were referring to me. I'm going nowhere. Please don't cross the barriers of decency. I don't need neither your sympathy nor your ugly sarcasm.
Take care.

Yes I have employed sarcasm. But,did I hit anyone below the belt? Did I use words that border on abuse? Even with many of those I have widely differed, I have unreservedly expressed my appreciation for some of their abilities/talent that have come through their posts.

You could well have sought clarification before launching your outburst.

With regards,
Swami

 

[tnkesaven]

Namaskarams,

We wonder if you will have time enough to go through our latest updations/New arrivals , which are as follows.



Topic : Manu smrithi - Controversy
Description: Tamil Audio file (Sunday Q&A)
URL: D.A.Joseph 's Website
Updated : 27/12/2010

Pranams.

News Letter Team

 

[happyhindu]

M/s Happy Hindu,
Mr.T.N.Kesavan has made a detailed posting on "Manusmriti" in Tamil in the thread 'Thought for. the Day' under 'General Discussions.It answers all your queries in post no 1029.
According to him Manusmriti permits people of all Varnas to learn 'Vedas'
I have no knowledge on this subject you may seek clarifications from mr.T.N.Kesavan.Since

Thankyou Sir. Unfortunately Shri Kesavan has made his posts in Tamil and the text is too large for me to tranliterate and go thru at the moment. Sir, i do not know if Manusmrithi permits all varnas to learn vedas. From all possible sources i understand that the practice of denying vedas to women and shudras started only with the Purva Mimansa Sutra of Jaimini. And perhaps law makers such as Manu followed the Purvamimansa Sutra (or vice-versa).

As you may be aware Jaimini's 'Purvamimansa Sutra' is dated variously between 300 BC and 2nd century AD. So it was written about the same time as Manusmrithi.

Perhaps Purvamimansa Sutra was written during the time Buddhism came to flourish (spread) and was a reactionary text. It is obviously a pre-Shankara text. And therefore the diktats of Purvamimansa Sutra and the Smrithis were already in practice during the time of Shankara.

However, it is unknown why some medieval bhasyakaras / reformers interpreted the vedanta sutras (including brahmasutra) in such way as to prohibit shudras and women from vedic study. Some do quote the reference of Purvamimansa Sutra. So it is imperative that we understand Purvamimansa Sutra for what it stands.

WRT denying Vedas to Shudras, Jaimini quotes the Taittitriya Samhita of Yajurveda as a reference. A lot can be debated how that one phrase [tasmaat shudro yajne anavaklaptah (to say that the shudra is not fit / eligible for sacrifices)] came about in the Taittitriya text. And AFAI understand, there is no guarantee that this line was not interloped at a later time. And this is one line alone. Nowhere else can one find the performance of sacrifices being denied to the "shudras" (simply because there was no proper caste sytem in practice during the vedic period -- the vedic period was that primitive / ancient and hence tribalistic).

And when it comes to denying vedas to women, we can say it was a mere whim / fancy of Jaimini. After reading his Purvamimansa Sutra one can feel he was a gifted grammarian, but a chauvanistic man when it came to his opinions about women.

Jaimini merely mentions asyā yāvaduktam āśīr brahmacaryam atulyatvāt (Purvamimansa Sutra 6.1.24) to say that a woman can observe celibacy but is not equal to a man in performing vedic rites (or that she can only perform rites that are specially mentioned for women). Jaimini gives no reason why he stipulates so. Jaimini does not provide pramana from the shruti for his basis either. Am told this is the reason why Uttaramimansa monks reject the premise of Jaimini.

In the shruti, female composers existed (eg: lopamudra, apala, gargi, maitreyi, etc). Even Patanjali’s mahabhasya mentions that a brahmin woman studied the mimansa of kasakritsna. Apparently there are no samhitas, brahmanas or upanishads which prohibit women from conducting sacrifices or learning vedas or from veda parayanam. But Jaimini prohibits women from learning vedas. And so do some smrithis.

So we can say that women owe their downward turn of things to the period / works of Jaimini and the Smrithi writers. And it possibly came about merely by their whim / fancy (??) -- or perhaps they had fought and won over some tribes which were matrilineal (strirajya groups) or tribes where women were treated equal to men. So they wanted to keep such women suppressed (power struggle).

I had asked those specific questions to Sangom sir since i did have some material in hand for all those questions. Anyways, since he is not here, i shall leave the conversation here.

Regards.