Is it time to sub-divide the Tamil Brahmin community?

X

XLR8R

0
Hello all.

I was not sure if it is correct to make this thread here or in the sociology section.

Recently I have been engaged in matrimonial search both for myself and my brother as well as some cousins, all are in their 30s.

I thought I was an exceptional case of a Tamil Brahmin family that got "group displaced" into central India (Maharashtra) and never went back to south India since it has been 70+ years since anyone worked or lived in south India. Due to some twist of fate, either our family members went abroad or settled in the cities of Central and North/East India like Maharashtra, MP, Gujarat, Delhi, West Bengal, etc.

Now all of us in this generation face a severe and exceptional challenge - it appears that 3-4 generations away from South India has actually changed us in the sense that we are not following the Tamil culture or speaking the Tamil language in the way the actual south Indians do. Personally I can tell my Tamil dialect is an older dialect that is not used in any modern Tamil discussion or media of Tamil Nadu.

Regardless of matrimonial consequences, I found that there is a huge number of "Tamil" Brahmins like us especially in Maharashtra and Gujarat.

The more north I go in my search, the more I find Tamil Brahmin boys and girls who do not even speak Tamil.

There are people who list themselves as Hindi/Marathi/Telugu/Kannada speaking in all matrimonial portals although they are Tamil Brahmins.

When I asked these families, they said it is convenient because stating your mother tongue as Tamil indicates you are Tamil to the app's algorithm, and it is not consonant with the reality of their children where they converse mostly in Hindi/Marathi/Telugu/Kannada and follow those customs and trends.

I personally have cousins who do not speak Tamil, although on paper they are Iyer. Their language is Malayalam, Marathi, Tulu and Sindhi.

Personally I spent my whole adult life in Maharashtra, Gujarat, MP and now Delhi NCR. This means that naturally due to affinity, my "Brahmin culture" is much more aligned to the local practices of the communities of these states.

This issue further creates a rift between the grandparents who originally migrated from south India and the children who no longer know what that culture or society means.

I have seen the common complaint on all matrimonial discussions between Tamil Brahmins in-person or online: That boys and girls who live in south India are OK to migrate between the states but not to Maharashtra, Gujarat and MP. The Central Indian clustered group of MH-GJ-MP more or less wants to remain confined in this region and the North India-based ones also desire to stay within North India.

Personally I faced this problem also, I frankly don't have any Tamil Brahmin (or Tamil NB) friends today who still think of themselves as Tamil except those I made in childhood during school. The population is too low and the migrant Tamil population working in Delhi or Indore, Ahmedabad somehow feel I am not Tamil enough for them due to 3 generations of Marathi and MP influence.

I found that, TB boys/girls raised in northern India + Maharashtra + Gujarat are not keen on marrying any Tamil Brahmin and instead prefer non-Tamil outright. However, because of racist, classist and linguistically divided society most of them accept whatever they can get, usually they settle for another northern-born TB person or a northern born Tamil speaking NB match.

I often have to declare my "mother tongue" as Tamil although almost everyone in my family is multilingual. For example, my father - Tamil + Kannada, my mother - Tamil + Marathi, myself - Hindi + Tamil + Gujarati + Marathi, my brother - Tamil + Hindi, some cousins - Malayalam + Marathi or Tamil + Marathi

Much of my generation born in Northern parts tends to prefer worship and rituals in the fashion of the Central Indian people/Western Indian people. I know outright preference some people have for Punjabi and Haryanvi culture.

Ethnicity, language were never rigid. As it is well known at least some Brahmins in all states were migrants or descendants of migrants. So it is not necessary that a Tamil Brahmin remains that forever.

The thought has struck my head, whether it is time to divide the Tamil Brahmin community into North Indian Tamil Brahmin and South Indian Tamil Brahmin. I imagine differences (cultural, linguistic and otherwise) are going to get worse over time.

I would like the esteemed forum members' thoughts on this issue.

P. S. to a smaller extent I have seen this in other south Indian Brahmin communities also

E.g. Deshashta Brahmin declaring themselves as Hindi or Telugu; Madhwa Brahmin calling themselves Marathis, Niyogi Brahmins describing themselves as Kannada and not Telugu
 
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But how far have you gone? You are still in India isnt it?
So why do you feel you dont identify with the original identity that you seek a new division?

Lets take this example..there are many Tamilians in Malaysia and Singapore..they still identify as Tamil though not everyone can speak fluent Tamil.
None of the Tamils out here feel they need a new division though the cultural and religious practices could differ considerably from culture in Tamil Nadu.
Everyone identifies as Tamil only.
Many Tamils in Malaysia speak only English and Malay ..a good number still speak fluent Tamil though.
Even the ones who only speak English and Malay still identify strongly as Tamil.

Could you explain why you feel a disconnect just because you speak a few other Indian languages?

I speak 6 languages including Tamil ....
my spoken Malay is more fluent than my spoken Tamil yet I identify as Tamil.
 
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renuka said:
But how far have you gone? You are still in India isnt it?
So why do you feel you dont identify with the original identity that you seek a new division?
Click to expand...

The problem is with the socio-political trajectory of the country.

When I thought about it, the fundamental notion of "Tamil" having to be associated with "Tamil Nadu" or even south India is incorrect.

It is a fact that certain sections of all castes in Tamil people today migrated from other regions, became integrated into Tamil society over generations.

Now when certain sections come out of Tamil majority regions and become integrated elsewhere, it should be debated aggressively whether the customs, traditions, societal laws and dressing sense, even food habits of Tamil Nadu should apply to them or be imposed on them today.

So there is nothing wrong with being called a "Tamil", but the problem is our nation's political forced marriage of languages to geographical regions.

I doubt a person born and raised in Nagpur knows anything or cares much about the politics or lifestyle of the people of TN, for example. It is more likely this person consumes Marathi and Hindi content, has a lifestyle and ideology, even food habits not different from others living there. Nominally he or she may know a number of languages including Tamil, but over time the person is likely to believe Nagpur's culture is in fact better for him/her.

The consequences - I can tell from my own experience:

Almost all apps, software, matrimonial portals see the caste + mother tongue and map the language Tamil to the region of Tamil Nadu.

Matrimonial consequences can be severe - a person expecting a typical Tam Brahm boy with the food habits, shloka, mantram and gods associated therewith - will instead find a roti-eating, Vithoba-Khandoba worshipping, Marathi news watching, Shiv worshipping, Dahi handi loving "Tamil" Brahmin instead who is, well, Tamil only by language and because he has been taught the Tamil festivals by his parents or grandparents.

(Above is used only as example)

So the connotation that "Tamil" means "Tamil Nadu" or Telugu means AP/TS is wrong in the sense that it completely ignores the expatriate population. Just like a Malaysian Tamil is Tamil but not Indian and most of them seek to associate with other Malaysian Tamils, the same should apply to Tamil Brahmins who are displaced. (also NB Tamils actually)

The problem is not well-observed in south India because Karnataka, AP, TS, Kerala are all neighbouring states of TN, so most families are aware of each other's cultures and the state politics + food habits too. Adjustment is easier due to a lot of overlap.

With North Indian Tamils, most North Indians have rejected the linguistic politics of TN and therefore they associate "Tamil" with "Tamil Nadu" and non-Hindi speaking, anti-North Indian rhetoric. You might say it is a fringe element but in reality we who grew up in north as "Tamils" have faced the brunt of the shallow linguistic politics of the southern states. It doesn't matter we learn 20 CR P. A. but there will be people who will straight up dismiss us because "they are anti-Hindi and anti-North Indian".

With south Indians in north India becoming a fringe minority (Kannada is extinct, with less than 5000 speakers in a district anywhere north of Mumbai) and the locals associating Tamils with TN and Kannadigas with Karnataka, there is constant pressure because the migrant south Indians do not want to mix with the Delhi-UP-Bengal native south Indians due to difference of opinion. The natives of these states also in general treat migrants poorly (applies to most of this country).

And with a situation where 70-80% of boys travel everywhere to get a better job and salary while girls either go abroad or stay close to the home city (for a number of reasons), most metro cities today have a majority of migrant boys and a majority of local girls.

This means that unless the forced marriage of language with culture and geography is removed, mostly people will not get married until completely settled i.e. age 32-40. In the long run this will lead to demographic disaster.

Therefore I do propose there needs to be a paradigm shift that migrated people should receive the honor and respect of a local. A Maharashtrian Tamil should be Maharashtrian first and Tamil next, but the entire system needs to be changed to reflect this from governance to identity.

That is why I had the thought that we need to bifurcate the community into North and South Indian Tamils, so that the youths of the communities will not waste time trying to find matches or friends they do not relate with and instead find like-minded people faster with similar circumstances. For an Iyer of Nagpur or Mumbai, a Gujarati or Marathi Brahmin is as good a life partner as a Tamil Brahmin of Maharashtra, but it is likely he/she won't relate well with the "South Indian" Tamil Brahmin born and raised in AP/TS/KA/TN as far as marriage is concerned.
 
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This is a ubiquitous problem caused by migration . The solution is not to sub divide but to merge with the local community. Maybe the first couple of generations may have problems with mingling and other issues but further down they seamlessly will likely identify with local culture.

With globalization inevitable there will be more common standards and other commonalities and more or less homogeneity will be the norm. Many narrow minded people will try to impede a smooth transition but eventually things will fall into place.

There will also be a new and the most dominant stratification based on money, power and may be knowledge but all others are likely to slowly wither away.
 
I agree fully to OP and when the same thing is discussed about 8 or 9 years of my short stay in Delhi, my friend expressed that iyer girls of TN willing to marry/locate US but not to North because the culture is totally merged with NB culture of TN, that is to say even talking Tamil is totally a different Tamil than iyers. Whereas as you pointed out either you don't talk Tamil or talk pure Brahmins Tamil and other life style also changed for you it is North for TN it is changed as a pure TN, though politicians may not accept that all TB of TN almost changed their life style according to TN.

Now even many kerala TB migrated back to TN their life style is totally different from TB stayed in TN, as their accent are old style of Iyers.

So we may have to identify suitable solution whether it is division or merger as per Sravna.
 
XLR8R said:
The problem is with the socio-political trajectory of the country.

When I thought about it, the fundamental notion of "Tamil" having to be associated with "Tamil Nadu" or even south India is incorrect.

It is a fact that certain sections of all castes in Tamil people today migrated from other regions, became integrated into Tamil society over generations.

Now when certain sections come out of Tamil majority regions and become integrated elsewhere, it should be debated aggressively whether the customs, traditions, societal laws and dressing sense, even food habits of Tamil Nadu should apply to them or be imposed on them today.

So there is nothing wrong with being called a "Tamil", but the problem is our nation's political forced marriage of languages to geographical regions.

I doubt a person born and raised in Nagpur knows anything or cares much about the politics or lifestyle of the people of TN, for example. It is more likely this person consumes Marathi and Hindi content, has a lifestyle and ideology, even food habits not different from others living there. Nominally he or she may know a number of languages including Tamil, but over time the person is likely to believe Nagpur's culture is in fact better for him/her.

The consequences - I can tell from my own experience:

Almost all apps, software, matrimonial portals see the caste + mother tongue and map the language Tamil to the region of Tamil Nadu.

Matrimonial consequences can be severe - a person expecting a typical Tam Brahm boy with the food habits, shloka, mantram and gods associated therewith - will instead find a roti-eating, Vithoba-Khandoba worshipping, Marathi news watching, Shiv worshipping, Dahi handi loving "Tamil" Brahmin instead who is, well, Tamil only by language and because he has been taught the Tamil festivals by his parents or grandparents.

(Above is used only as example)

So the connotation that "Tamil" means "Tamil Nadu" or Telugu means AP/TS is wrong in the sense that it completely ignores the expatriate population. Just like a Malaysian Tamil is Tamil but not Indian and most of them seek to associate with other Malaysian Tamils, the same should apply to Tamil Brahmins who are displaced. (also NB Tamils actually)

The problem is not well-observed in south India because Karnataka, AP, TS, Kerala are all neighbouring states of TN, so most families are aware of each other's cultures and the state politics + food habits too. Adjustment is easier due to a lot of overlap.

With North Indian Tamils, most North Indians have rejected the linguistic politics of TN and therefore they associate "Tamil" with "Tamil Nadu" and non-Hindi speaking, anti-North Indian rhetoric. You might say it is a fringe element but in reality we who grew up in north as "Tamils" have faced the brunt of the shallow linguistic politics of the southern states. It doesn't matter we learn 20 CR P. A. but there will be people who will straight up dismiss us because "they are anti-Hindi and anti-North Indian".

With south Indians in north India becoming a fringe minority (Kannada is extinct, with less than 5000 speakers in a district anywhere north of Mumbai) and the locals associating Tamils with TN and Kannadigas with Karnataka, there is constant pressure because the migrant south Indians do not want to mix with the Delhi-UP-Bengal native south Indians due to difference of opinion. The natives of these states also in general treat migrants poorly (applies to most of this country).

And with a situation where 70-80% of boys travel everywhere to get a better job and salary while girls either go abroad or stay close to the home city (for a number of reasons), most metro cities today have a majority of migrant boys and a majority of local girls.

This means that unless the forced marriage of language with culture and geography is removed, mostly people will not get married until completely settled i.e. age 32-40. In the long run this will lead to demographic disaster.

Therefore I do propose there needs to be a paradigm shift that migrated people should receive the honor and respect of a local. A Maharashtrian Tamil should be Maharashtrian first and Tamil next, but the entire system needs to be changed to reflect this from governance to identity.

That is why I had the thought that we need to bifurcate the community into North and South Indian Tamils, so that the youths of the communities will not waste time trying to find matches or friends they do not relate with and instead find like-minded people faster with similar circumstances. For an Iyer of Nagpur or Mumbai, a Gujarati or Marathi Brahmin is as good a life partner as a Tamil Brahmin of Maharashtra, but it is likely he/she won't relate well with the "South Indian" Tamil Brahmin born and raised in AP/TS/KA/TN as far as marriage is concerned.
Click to expand...
Yes I have seen some of my friends daughters/sons married the North Indian Brahmins.
 
XLR8R said:
Hello all.

I was not sure if it is correct to make this thread here or in the sociology section.

Recently I have been engaged in matrimonial search both for myself and my brother as well as some cousins, all are in their 30s.

I thought I was an exceptional case of a Tamil Brahmin family that got "group displaced" into central India (Maharashtra) and never went back to south India since it has been 70+ years since anyone worked or lived in south India. Due to some twist of fate, either our family members went abroad or settled in the cities of Central and North/East India like Maharashtra, MP, Gujarat, Delhi, West Bengal, etc.

Now all of us in this generation face a severe and exceptional challenge - it appears that 3-4 generations away from South India has actually changed us in the sense that we are not following the Tamil culture or speaking the Tamil language in the way the actual south Indians do. Personally I can tell my Tamil dialect is an older dialect that is not used in any modern Tamil discussion or media of Tamil Nadu.

Regardless of matrimonial consequences, I found that there is a huge number of "Tamil" Brahmins like us especially in Maharashtra and Gujarat.

The more north I go in my search, the more I find Tamil Brahmin boys and girls who do not even speak Tamil.

There are people who list themselves as Hindi/Marathi/Telugu/Kannada speaking in all matrimonial portals although they are Tamil Brahmins.

When I asked these families, they said it is convenient because stating your mother tongue as Tamil indicates you are Tamil to the app's algorithm, and it is not consonant with the reality of their children where they converse mostly in Hindi/Marathi/Telugu/Kannada and follow those customs and trends.

I personally have cousins who do not speak Tamil, although on paper they are Iyer. Their language is Malayalam, Marathi, Tulu and Sindhi.

Personally I spent my whole adult life in Maharashtra, Gujarat, MP and now Delhi NCR. This means that naturally due to affinity, my "Brahmin culture" is much more aligned to the local practices of the communities of these states.

This issue further creates a rift between the grandparents who originally migrated from south India and the children who no longer know what that culture or society means.

I have seen the common complaint on all matrimonial discussions between Tamil Brahmins in-person or online: That boys and girls who live in south India are OK to migrate between the states but not to Maharashtra, Gujarat and MP. The Central Indian clustered group of MH-GJ-MP more or less wants to remain confined in this region and the North India-based ones also desire to stay within North India.

Personally I faced this problem also, I frankly don't have any Tamil Brahmin (or Tamil NB) friends today who still think of themselves as Tamil except those I made in childhood during school. The population is too low and the migrant Tamil population working in Delhi or Indore, Ahmedabad somehow feel I am not Tamil enough for them due to 3 generations of Marathi and MP influence.

I found that, TB boys/girls raised in northern India + Maharashtra + Gujarat are not keen on marrying any Tamil Brahmin and instead prefer non-Tamil outright. However, because of racist, classist and linguistically divided society most of them accept whatever they can get, usually they settle for another northern-born TB person or a northern born Tamil speaking NB match.

I often have to declare my "mother tongue" as Tamil although almost everyone in my family is multilingual. For example, my father - Tamil + Kannada, my mother - Tamil + Marathi, myself - Hindi + Tamil + Gujarati + Marathi, my brother - Tamil + Hindi, some cousins - Malayalam + Marathi or Tamil + Marathi

Much of my generation born in Northern parts tends to prefer worship and rituals in the fashion of the Central Indian people/Western Indian people. I know outright preference some people have for Punjabi and Haryanvi culture.

Ethnicity, language were never rigid. As it is well known at least some Brahmins in all states were migrants or descendants of migrants. So it is not necessary that a Tamil Brahmin remains that forever.

The thought has struck my head, whether it is time to divide the Tamil Brahmin community into North Indian Tamil Brahmin and South Indian Tamil Brahmin. I imagine differences (cultural, linguistic and otherwise) are going to get worse over time.

I would like the esteemed forum members' thoughts on this issue.

P. S. to a smaller extent I have seen this in other south Indian Brahmin communities also

E.g. Deshashta Brahmin declaring themselves as Hindi or Telugu; Madhwa Brahmin calling themselves Marathis, Niyogi Brahmins describing themselves as Kannada and not Telugu
Click to expand...
Today, educated Hindu boys and girls in India and around the world encounter numerous challenges. The caste system, layered with various cultural identities and the overwhelming influence of Western culture, has led to quite a bit of confusion. There was a time when arranged marriages were decided by the elders, and the bride and groom barely exchanged glances until after saying "I do." In those days, regardless of any issues, people accepted their fate and made it work for a greater purpose.

Now, arrangements require at least some interaction between the marrying partners. Almost everyone involved seems to be there just to filter out candidates, which results in a lack of genuine options.

Going the independent route, what used to be called love marriages, has become tricky because many people don't know how to woo and attract the right partner. Everyone has an extensive list of requirements, and if a suitable match is found, that person often has their own set of criteria that disqualifies the pairing.

So, who exactly is a Tamil Brahmin? Is it just about being born a Brahmin, or is there more to it?

These so-called TBs have spread across the globe, including various regions of India. There are bound to be compatibility issues regardless. Knowing multiple languages is a bonus, but there has to be a common language between the marrying parties.

On Tamil matrimonial sites or others like shadi.com, it's essential to specify what you're looking for—not just in terms of strict requirements, but also being open to possibilities.

At heart, consider yourself simply as an Indian. You can learn Tamil and still be an Indian. You can adopt certain TB cultural practices and remain an Indian. Trim down your requirements to just a few deal-breakers.

I know someone from a TB family who grew up in Nagpur. They mostly speak Hindi, though they can also communicate in Tamil. One guy has yet to find a suitable bride and is still single in his early 40s. Another married a local gal and is now happily raising three kids.

Irreversible changes have taken place, but as an Indian who is mostly satvic and equipped with various skills, including language abilities, you will be able to find a partner. Just approach it as an Indian. That’s my two cents!
 
Lots of Tamil muslims in Malaysia marry girls from India from their village and mostly related to them.

These girls hardly speak English and have no idea what is the local culture in Malaysia is.
Yet they get along well with husband as they have common grounds of religion and language.
Not all Tamil Muslims out here speak fluent Tamil..some speak a bit of Tamil and speak Malay at home.
Yet they will marry a girl from India and the girl live happily.


Also if a Tamil Brahmin goes to USA and marries a Caucasian, everyone is able to adapt ..so why is it so hard for a TB from North to marry a TB from South?
 
renuka said:
Lots of Tamil muslims in Malaysia marry girls from India from their village and mostly related to them.

These girls hardly speak English and have no idea what is the local culture in Malaysia is.
Yet they get along well with husband as they have common grounds of religion and language.
Not all Tamil Muslims out here speak fluent Tamil..some speak a bit of Tamil and speak Malay at home.
Yet they will marry a girl from India and the girl live happily.


Also if a Tamil Brahmin goes to USA and marries a Caucasian, everyone is able to adapt ..so why is it so hard for a TB from North to marry a TB from South?
Click to expand...
Also if a Tamil Brahmin goes to USA and marries a Caucasian, everyone is able to adapt ..so why is it so hard for a TB from North to marry a TB from South...

just info ....im south TB married TB from delhi/north.....my wife born and brought up delhi...

my daughter married in USA a caucasian....white boy....so nothing wrong in my life..
 
tbs said:
Also if a Tamil Brahmin goes to USA and marries a Caucasian, everyone is able to adapt ..so why is it so hard for a TB from North to marry a TB from South...

just info ....im south TB married TB from delhi/north.....my wife born and brought up delhi...

my daughter married in USA a caucasian....white boy....so nothing wrong in my life..
Click to expand...
Let us be honest?
Your post:
tbs

Post in thread 'Comparing intercaste marriages (TB vs Other Brahmins)'

hi

just my own experience....as TB studied vedas/sanskrit.....we moved to USA...my daughter did medical school

and got married with american guy......im not happy with that....but now days...parents are helpless too...this

is truth in western countries....parents dont want loose their kids.....for the sake of kids happiness....many

tb brahmin parents sacrifice their own happiness.....this is present day scenario...
  • Like
Says different story.

We did not learn (Assimilate) the culture of our parents. We taught half of what we learned. So, there is cultural dilution with each generation.
I do not know if it is good or bad.
 
XLR8R said:
Hello all.

I was not sure if it is correct to make this thread here or in the sociology section.

Recently I have been engaged in matrimonial search both for myself and my brother as well as some cousins, all are in their 30s.

I thought I was an exceptional case of a Tamil Brahmin family that got "group displaced" into central India (Maharashtra) and never went back to south India since it has been 70+ years since anyone worked or lived in south India. Due to some twist of fate, either our family members went abroad or settled in the cities of Central and North/East India like Maharashtra, MP, Gujarat, Delhi, West Bengal, etc.

Now all of us in this generation face a severe and exceptional challenge - it appears that 3-4 generations away from South India has actually changed us in the sense that we are not following the Tamil culture or speaking the Tamil language in the way the actual south Indians do. Personally I can tell my Tamil dialect is an older dialect that is not used in any modern Tamil discussion or media of Tamil Nadu.

Regardless of matrimonial consequences, I found that there is a huge number of "Tamil" Brahmins like us especially in Maharashtra and Gujarat.

The more north I go in my search, the more I find Tamil Brahmin boys and girls who do not even speak Tamil.

There are people who list themselves as Hindi/Marathi/Telugu/Kannada speaking in all matrimonial portals although they are Tamil Brahmins.

When I asked these families, they said it is convenient because stating your mother tongue as Tamil indicates you are Tamil to the app's algorithm, and it is not consonant with the reality of their children where they converse mostly in Hindi/Marathi/Telugu/Kannada and follow those customs and trends.

I personally have cousins who do not speak Tamil, although on paper they are Iyer. Their language is Malayalam, Marathi, Tulu and Sindhi.

Personally I spent my whole adult life in Maharashtra, Gujarat, MP and now Delhi NCR. This means that naturally due to affinity, my "Brahmin culture" is much more aligned to the local practices of the communities of these states.

This issue further creates a rift between the grandparents who originally migrated from south India and the children who no longer know what that culture or society means.

I have seen the common complaint on all matrimonial discussions between Tamil Brahmins in-person or online: That boys and girls who live in south India are OK to migrate between the states but not to Maharashtra, Gujarat and MP. The Central Indian clustered group of MH-GJ-MP more or less wants to remain confined in this region and the North India-based ones also desire to stay within North India.

Personally I faced this problem also, I frankly don't have any Tamil Brahmin (or Tamil NB) friends today who still think of themselves as Tamil except those I made in childhood during school. The population is too low and the migrant Tamil population working in Delhi or Indore, Ahmedabad somehow feel I am not Tamil enough for them due to 3 generations of Marathi and MP influence.

I found that, TB boys/girls raised in northern India + Maharashtra + Gujarat are not keen on marrying any Tamil Brahmin and instead prefer non-Tamil outright. However, because of racist, classist and linguistically divided society most of them accept whatever they can get, usually they settle for another northern-born TB person or a northern born Tamil speaking NB match.

I often have to declare my "mother tongue" as Tamil although almost everyone in my family is multilingual. For example, my father - Tamil + Kannada, my mother - Tamil + Marathi, myself - Hindi + Tamil + Gujarati + Marathi, my brother - Tamil + Hindi, some cousins - Malayalam + Marathi or Tamil + Marathi

Much of my generation born in Northern parts tends to prefer worship and rituals in the fashion of the Central Indian people/Western Indian people. I know outright preference some people have for Punjabi and Haryanvi culture.

Ethnicity, language were never rigid. As it is well known at least some Brahmins in all states were migrants or descendants of migrants. So it is not necessary that a Tamil Brahmin remains that forever.

The thought has struck my head, whether it is time to divide the Tamil Brahmin community into North Indian Tamil Brahmin and South Indian Tamil Brahmin. I imagine differences (cultural, linguistic and otherwise) are going to get worse over time.

I would like the esteemed forum members' thoughts on this issue.

P. S. to a smaller extent I have seen this in other south Indian Brahmin communities also

E.g. Deshashta Brahmin declaring themselves as Hindi or Telugu; Madhwa Brahmin calling themselves Marathis, Niyogi Brahmins describing themselves as Kannada and not Telugu
Click to expand...
I was born and brought up in Jamshedpur, married to a TB girl born and brought up in Udaipur. We still speak in Tamil, English, and Hindi. I am for TB Thanjavur (previously known as Tanjore) food. I have visited Tamil Nadu as a visitor, and have some relatives there. I do follow CSK in IPL. So, I understand your point very well. But why would I want to break away from Tamil group. In the USA, in my city, I started Tamil Sangam, I ran it for first 2 years. But last time I went to the annual meeting the budget was presented in Tamil including the Dollar amounts, I called it quits. It is an individual choice.
 
prasad1 said:
Let us be honest?
Your post:
tbs

Post in thread 'Comparing intercaste marriages (TB vs Other Brahmins)'

hi

just my own experience....as TB studied vedas/sanskrit.....we moved to USA...my daughter did medical school

and got married with american guy......im not happy with that....but now days...parents are helpless too...this

is truth in western countries....parents dont want loose their kids.....for the sake of kids happiness....many

tb brahmin parents sacrifice their own happiness.....this is present day scenario...
  • Like
Says different story.

We did not learn (Assimilate) the culture of our parents. We taught half of what we learned. So, there is cultural dilution with each generation.
I do not know if it is good or bad.
Click to expand...
hi

everybody has right to say....its upto assimilate the answers....i dont want elaborate more...one gita....many translations....
 
Once upon a time life inside home and outside home was same. As days progressed, as years passed, the drift widened, with migration, with people moving across states, across seas. Migrations in and out mandated adapting to environment. Adapting to environment outside home was subscribed to, since there was absolutely no other choice. But within the four walls of our homes, we design and orchestrate the environment. We wanted to retain roots regardless of distance, remoteness etc. We are free to choose. Hence we choose co-habitants from similar roots lest there be adaptation challenges.

Times are changing. Even the practices, traditions are changing in our places of origin. Roots are getting extinct, ceasing to exist. We have conveniently ignored this fact or oblivious to it.

The definition of 'Tamilian' of current times is remotely associated with that of yester-century.

The change in definition of Tamil Brahmin, hence, is no exception.

Sandhyavandhanam, unlike found in TBs of yester-years, is no longer an integral part of daily routine. Brahmopadesan is just a formality, warranted by caste.

The struggle here is to desperately return to, to desperately maintain and to desperately hold on fast to roots which is remotely possible.

Bygone era is, when TB girls could be identified by looks from a distance or by names. Now TB girls look pseudo american. Madisar is almost extinct. Names are fancy kaleidoscope of syllables. Hardly do you find girls born during 1980s or later named 'Visalakshi' or 'Pankajam' etc. We no longer address 'Maami' or 'Maama'. They are all 'Uncle' and 'Auntie'. Worse still, husbands are addressed by their names. In my opinion it is deterioration, degeneration, demerit.

TB Tamil (most melodious and sweetest) is almost extinct. Tamil in TB homes is one step better than Dooming Kuppam Tamil.

A few decades more, TB identity itself will cease. "Wanted Bride/Bridegroom from a TB" will cease. Let alone TB, even caste names and religion names will eventually cease from matrimonial columns. The trend is already changing. "working in USA (or UK or Oz etc)" or specifications on income, etc are the norms and already common clauses.

Caste/Religion/Region affiliations are becoming anachronisms.

Modern Wisdom is acquiring wealth even if it costs and needs crucifying traditions, roots etc.
 
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Western a-culture single handedly destroyed the TB culture. The brahmin look is gone . Brahmin boys and girls in the west have lost the charm. So is brahmin Wisdom. Those who remain in India have somewhat been saved from crucification. Still not all is lost. If those who are in India realize the futility of embracing a-cultures then may be TB culture will be saved.
 
sravna said:
Western a-culture single handedly destroyed the TB culture. The brahmin look is gone . Brahmin boys and girls in the west have lost the charm. So is brahmin Wisdom. Those who remain in India have somewhat been saved from crucification. Still not all is lost. If those who are in India realize the futility of embracing a-cultures then may be TB culture will be saved.
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I think this is a distinct discussion for a thread of its own.

We need to ponder the following while blaming external agents:

Did western culture impose itself on TBs?

Did Westerners impose their culture on TBs?

Were TBs at any time coerced or were under duress to adopt and yield to western culture?

Did not TBs of their own choice and will transform to western culture?

It is a fad to appear western, not because TBs like it, not because of any apparent merits, but merely because TBs wanted to show off they are western. It is because of mean-mindedness, feeble-mindedness, mentality, mindset, weak-mindedness, the illusory superiority of appearing western of TBs.

Had Uncle Sam not been a Super Power, TBs would not be imitating or aping a-culture.
 
TB Women, especially born during or after 1990s, do not want to observe 'madi', 'pathu', 'aacharam'. They are not comfortable with these apparently superstitious beliefs and irrational practices. Pressures of life, of work-culture, struggle to balance work-life balance makes it difficult to observe these orthodox customs and practices. No wonder TB prospective brides are cautious that they do not get caught into any orthodox whirlpool or quagmire.

This makes it difficult for TB mothers born during 1970s or earlier to find suitable daughters-in-law for themselves. Hence many TB prospective grooms are not married. They want to please their mothers though suitable brides are available in plenty.

Few mothers are liberal in this regard.
 
Westerners did not impose their a-culture on TBs but there is no denying that such a-culture destroyed the weakest among the TBs. The western system was too strong for them. We do not have to worry about them.

The core is still intact and only the fluff is gone. The westerners are getting weakened and soon western attraction will fade off.
 
sravna said:
Westerners did not impose their a-culture on TBs but there is no denying that such a-culture destroyed the weakest among the TBs. The western system was too strong for them. We do not have to worry about them.

The core is still intact and only the fluff is gone. The westerners are getting weakened and soon western attraction will fade off.
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"..that such a-culture destroyed the weakest among the TBs..."

This is what appears cryptic to understand. No culture in my opinion pro-actively destroys any human people-group. Some individuals or groups choose to imitate others and adopt their culture for reasons best known to them. On some instances it is not willful adoption but coerced adaptation, hedged by circumstances, environment, surrounding.

For instance, the Tanjavur brahmins who migrated to Bombay for work, had to abruptly shed and shun 'madi', 'pathu', 'aacharam' etc. In Bombay you begin life in a 10 ft by 10 ft single bedroom, with a toilet attached bathroom. Kitchen is a corner of the bedroom. Hence whosoever you are, are left with no choice but to confine everything within 10 by 10. For instance, whether Tanjavur or Palghat or T'veli brahmin, women forget 'dhooram' and cook food even while 'dhooram'. The progenies begin their birth with and hence all over their body, soul and spirit they are, Bombay culture. 'Dhooram' is not there in their lexicon or dictionary. 'Dhooram' is just a tip of the iceberg.

Likewise those who migrate to USA and their progenies who are born in USA.
 
Hard core pragmatism is the dumbest philosophy one can practise. It totally ignores the finer aspects of life based solely on force physical and mental though at its very dumbest it is a lot more physical. If one were to expose weaknesses of every philosophy and hardcore pragmatism also exposed, no person with even a semblance of intelligence would touch it even with a barge pole. The fact is hardcore pragmatism has not yet been exposed and so thrives. When it thrives it thrives inexorably. it can numb the sharpest of minds when in glory but will not entice even the dumbest person when exposed. As of now it is fully practised by Americans and to a lesser extent by other westerners. Unless stopped now it will pervade inexorably the whole globe. TBs especially the weaker ones are not immune either.
 
Renukaji, The Hindu community in Malaysia is essentially Tamil. So the Tamils there choose to marry another Tamil. But in India you have many choices amongst the Hindus-Punjabi, UP or Bengali or Marathi or Gujarati. Had earlier shared about 90% of TB marriages in Delhi are outside the community. It is only the TB's of TN who speak in Tamil. Rest speak the local language effortlessly. My plea is that TB's who migrated out of Tamil Nadu (rather shoved out due to anti brahmin hate campaigns) to come back to TN and create a unified community.
 
vgane said:
Renukaji, The Hindu community in Malaysia is essentially Tamil. So the Tamils there choose to marry another Tamil. But in India you have many choices amongst the Hindus-Punjabi, UP or Bengali or Marathi or Gujarati. Had earlier shared about 90% of TB marriages in Delhi are outside the community. It is only the TB's of TN who speak in Tamil. Rest speak the local language effortlessly. My plea is that TB's who migrated out of Tamil Nadu (rather shoved out due to anti brahmin hate campaigns) to come back to TN and create a unified community.
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Hi

my in laws moved to DELHI in 50s....my wife/daughter/son born in delhi only....they speak punjabi/hindi very

well...they speak tamil in home only...they can't write/or read tamil.....my grand daughter born in USA...

myself speak/write/read tamil....even though i born in kerala palakkad.... i speak more than 10 indian

languages....language learning is purely individual interest....
 
vgane said:
It is only the TB's of TN who speak in Tamil. Rest speak the local language effortlessly
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So it is blessing in disguise by not able to learn any other language than Tamil.

Also the culture of conservativeness is the main cause of not getting brides from South to groom's of North as they adapt the brahminism of North.
 
Lotusinsanskrit said:
So it is blessing in disguise by not able to learn any other language than Tamil.

Also the culture of conservativeness is the main cause of not getting brides from South to groom's of North as they adapt the brahminism of North.
Click to expand...
hi
many gujaratis live in USA without english for many years..its surprise to me..
 

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