Imbalanced Criticism of India by those who left India , NRI, PIO, OCI ....

[prasad1]

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He wants the freedom and right to accuse Individuals, Groups, beliefs, practices etc.,
He wants the right to criticise the texts, practices, thoughts etc., and the right to attack all of these
But he wants insulation from criticism and attacks to his glorified self.
He doesnt believe in God, but completely believes in what God said to Thirukkacchi Nambi because
it helps his agenda.
He doesnt believe in Ramanuja's teaching or his traditions, but completely believes in some aspects because it suits his objective.
He doesnt believe in one version of Ramanuja's story, but completely believes in the other because it helps his agenda.

The believers see no need and value in his criticisms, and the non believers see no use for it, but still he hangs around here with his mouthful.

A very good post.
Mr. Ozone, I wish I had your style of writing. Last time I tried to respond to personal attack, I got in trouble. But somehow some people have been granted immunity. They can make personal attack, and get away with it.

 

[prasad1]

Respected Shri ozone,

You know I am a rather conservative type of brahmanan and do believe in the religion bequethed to my generation by my parents and elders; I value it though I might have been an utter failure in using that religion and its instructions for any type of improvement of my own life itself.

Still, I humbly feel that we need not (and rather should not) give in to the temptation of "intolerance" of atheistic or irreligious views. I believe it is the same God who causes all these things to manifest and unless and until such people compel us to forsake our religion and do only these posts in this web forum, we need not mind those statements at all. Their views will add relish to my religious beliefs just like a taste of chutney in between sips of very delicious 'paayaasam'.

So, I request you to desist from lowering yourself and let the caravan of religious-minded folks go on.

Mr. Sharma,
Mr. Ozone or I for that matter have nothing against Atheist. The constant put down of Theist, Hinduism, India, and Indian is a bitter pill.
If atheist want to claim anything about their philosophy with criticizing the majority there is no argument. But this constant sniping and bashing of the majority here is irritating.

So, I request you to desist from lowering yourself and let the caravan of religious-minded folks go on.

 

[ozone]

I agree with you. I am very much open to different views and intepretations. Infact I look forward to
genuine debates on intepretations, so I can change mine if needed.
However, what I see here is more of name calling and outpour of venom and prejudices, which I think even in an web forum
is unhealthy and serves no purpose other than personal happiness.

 

[ozone]

Last time I tried to respond to personal attack, I got in trouble.

Dear Sri Prasad,
This is what I learnt from experience.
If you are personally attacked, and you feel it is wrong, then
do not focus on telling the person he is wrong, instead
respond with the awareness that he is wrong.

 

[praveen]

Dear Nara,
Please clarify how:

o - statement such as this falls in line with your line of rational debate and is not an emotional prattle?
o - why this isnt calling someone an 'idiot' and why it implies a make up?
o - why this isnt a shadow boxing?
The reason why I dont engage with you directly is your loose and dirty/derogatory tongue - or fingers if you want to call it. - which unfortunately gets always overlooked by the moderators

i am leaving the post as is but i would like to point out that there is an option to report posts if you find it inappropriate. We are not machines to read through all the posts, we might miss a few. The best option of bringing posts to our attention is to report them and not take it upon self to retaliate.

 

[praveen]

But somehow some people have been granted immunity. They can make personal attack, and get away with it.

No one has got an immunity pin. Everyone is treated the same. Some in public and some in private. Not all needs to be "showcased".

 

[Nara]

Please clarify how:

o - statement such as this falls in line with your line of rational debate and is not an emotional prattle?
o - why this isnt calling someone an 'idiot' and why it implies a make up?
o - why this isnt a shadow boxing?
The reason why I dont engage with you directly is your loose and dirty/derogatory tongue - or fingers if you want to call it. - which unfortunately gets always overlooked by the moderators

ozone, this is not the first time, time and again you guys have been making sly remarks without actually rebutting my point. The only difference now is I am calling you guys out.

I never called anybody "idiot", you are simply making things up out of this air. As for shadow boxing, I have never shied away from naming you and prasad1. You stop making sly remarks and you won't hear from me ever again.

As requested by Praveen I have presnted my views very clearly in PM. You may respond to them by PM or not, that is your choice. I will just point out one thing, which I have said several times earlier and let me repeat it again.

When there is disagreement:
[a] present your rebuttal with logic and evidence, leave any personal comments, or,
if you don't want to do [a] ignore and move on

I am ready to abide by this rule. I welcome fair debate, in fact I enjoy it. What I am no longer going to tolerate is your brand of personal invectives thrown from behind the cloak of annonimity. Everytime you guys engage in such tactic I am going to call you out.

Thank you very much...

 

[Yamaka]

Dr Y Avl -What I like or don't is not the topic ..The key word here is not "criticism" - but the word preceding it - " imbalanced" !!LoL

Dr. tks Avl:

I understand your intent.. "imbalanced" is quite a subjective matter.

I have been very clear from the outset that I am NOT a Nationalist, although I read frequently The Hindu, T of I, Hindustan Times and listen to Tamil music via Tamilo.com.

I have a "tribal instinct" to connect with the Rural India and to know the progress India has made there...Whether I run away from India or not, India in me is trying to connect with Rural India on a daily basis.

What Made Me Happy and Unhappy, recently?:

I read from the Hindu that school students from TN (& Himachal Pradesh) are globally competitive although they rank just about 60%.. This made me happy because of all the States, TN students can stand up to the global quality and are trying to move up the global ladder.

Also, I read TN is one of the Tier One States in India in per capita GDP. And, in Performing and Visual Arts & Music, Tamils are at the forefront, globally competitive (read Oscar Rahman, IR, MSV, Mani Ratnam, K Balachander etc).

This makes me feel good, and happy because in spite of all the dirty politics, TN people are at the forefront economically and culturally.

By the same token,

Today I read that one Union Minister lamented that Indian women demand wireless services, but they don't demand toilet facilities.

A full 60% of people defecate in the open air in India!

This makes me very angry and unhappy.

Please tell me whether I am "imbalanced" in my view of India.

Innum varum....

Cheers.

 

[Yamaka]

......

While on the subject, please have a look at msg # 39 of Sri Y, deftly introducing two-tumbler system and caste into the discussions (and the news article of "The Hindu" makes no mention of the two tumblers.

How is caste issue related to the discussion on hand? Is it a random action by a rationalist, or is it agenda based?

Regards,

Dear Z:

I posted the Hindu article here in this Thread because, in my view, CASTE remains a 800 lb gorilla roaming our front and back yards and people refuse to see it..

I brought "the two-tumbler system" as a critique of the article itself (Yes, the author did not mention it). I liked some aspect of the Article, and criticized others.

I am a person who likes the Sun Shine very much... all the cans must be opened, and the worms need to be destroyed in Sun Light.

My positions are expressed with clarity, as much as possible.

I want to reiterate my appreciation to the Founders of India: That they made India a Secular Constitutional Democracy, which is the best thing happened to her, IMO.

But, how People of India use this Jewel is up to them... as I am not a voting citizen.

More later...

Cheers.

 

[prasad1]

Intent matters, and some times the messenger (because of past comments) matters too.
I started a thread with this item, but my idea was not to insult India, but to educate the Indians, and to find out how we can solve the problem.

Rural development minister Jairam Ramesh today described India as the "dirtiest and filthiest" country in the world where people with mobile phones go out to answer the "call of nature".
"He said around 65 per cent of rural houses had been provided with toilets but didn't use them. "Today, if you go to many parts of India, you have women with a mobile phone going out to answer the call of nature. I mean it is paradoxical," the minister, who also holds charge of sanitation, said at an event here."You have a mobile phone and you don't have a toilet. When you have a toilet, you don't use the toilet... (but) use it as a godown."



How do we improve this situation?

India dirtiest and filthiest: Ramesh - Yahoo!

 

[prasad1]

ozone, this is not the first time, time and again you guys have been making sly remarks without actually rebutting my point. The only difference now is I am calling you guys out.

I never called anybody "idiot", you are simply making things up out of this air. As for shadow boxing, I have never shied away from naming you and prasad1. You stop making sly remarks and you won't hear from me ever again.

As requested by Praveen I have presnted my views very clearly in PM. You may respond to them by PM or not, that is your choice. I will just point out one thing, which I have said several times earlier and let me repeat it again.

When there is disagreement:
[a] present your rebuttal with logic and evidence, leave any personal comments, or,
if you don't want to do [a] ignore and move on

I am ready to abide by this rule. I welcome fair debate, in fact I enjoy it. What I am no longer going to tolerate is your brand of personal invectives thrown from behind the cloak of annonimity. Everytime you guys engage in such tactic I am going to call you out.

Thank you very much...

I have replied to your PM.
I have no interest to debate you. You assume what you want to assume, and if you do not like what I write you can ignore it. If I make a general statement and unfortunately it fits you, it is up to you to wear it. You are not my target. I take personally any one constantly insulting India, and PIO all the time. We the PIO's do realize that there is enough things wrong In India, or Indians. We all gripe about it, we all have suggestions about how to change the situation. But we generally find some redeeming factors to praise India. Occasional praise of our ancestral Janmabhoomi is warranted.
Unlike your threat

What I am no longer going to tolerate is your brand of personal invectives thrown from behind the cloak of annonimity. Everytime you guys engage in such tactic I am going to call you out.

I go out of my way to say that I do not engage you at all.

 

[ozone]

ozone, this is not the first time, time and again you guys have been making sly remarks without actually rebutting my point. The only difference now is I am calling you guys out.

Whats really wrong here, kindly explain. I have quoted your own text and asked you to explain how it fits in your own
definition. You completely ignore the intent, because you cannot embrace the truth, but try to turn it into a sly. Where exactly is the sly in that post, please show me.

I never called anybody "idiot", you are simply making things up out of this air.

Dont tell me you have something honourable behind the words people whose intellectual DNA that I quoted.

As far as the rest of the comments are concerned, I have no interest to respond. If you think those statement that I quoted of yours did not mean any of us, please dont bother to read our comments as well and pretend to think it is meant for you.
I have already said everything I have understood and even if those posts are deleted, I know you have read them.
Dont think you are the only smart guy in the town. We can upsmart you, but because we want to be a decent lot and care for our self respect we just put up with you here.

 

[Yamaka]

Before I point out fingers at 1200 million people with or without jingoism of any variety, I will take a hard look at myself and introspect:

(i) Am I a nobel awardee?

(ii) Wait a minute, what is it with just one nobel award? Hasn't Marie Curie won two Nobel awards?

(iii) Wait yet another minute - With all the tons of progress made in education field now-a-days what with digital learning, extensive library system, advanced and state of the art curriculum etc., can I not beat Marie Curie?

If I did not reach anywhere there, what was that I was lacking? May be those 1200 million people may also be lacking some such ingredient.

When I do not have a realistic scope of "grabbing" a nobel, what next best thing can I do? How can I propel them in that direction?

Am I an expert in some field? In my chosen area of profession? May be I am an expert in theoretical physics, or nano technology, or cloud computing or genetic engineering, may be business finance or algo trading?

How about me putting about 4 or 5 papers of 700-1000 words of high quality material in my blog spot or "Share your knowledge" thread in TB forum, where I frequent?

I know theism is just a waste of time, but then so is atheism - all talk about people trapped below $ 2 dollars a day - is nothing of substantial value. Why do not I genuinely contribute and share the useful knowledge?

Here is a true karmayogi in action: Khan Academy

Dear Z:

Thanks for reading my post..

Nice introspection... please write about it...

I will read YOUR introspection with interest and curiosity.

However, I must disagree with your concluding para because it is my considered view that

1. Religious FATALISM is flowing naturally from the MINDSET of Theism. I have opined that RF is the root cause of it all - all the ails and torment of Modern India. You may disagree with it... that's fine with me.

2. India is seriously fragmented economically into India9% and India91%. You may refuse to see this, again, it's your CHOICE.

The above views and observations are very critical if we were to venture into finding practical SOLUTIONS, if any.

3. I welcome genuinely YOUR sharing of YOUR expertise and knowledge to the Community here, as a start.


Cheers.

Wait & watch.



ps. Since you did not address the above post to me, I understood that it was YOUR introspection, not anybody else! Cheers... Be careful, what you wish for! Lol.

 

[Nara]

prasad1 and ozone, as requested by Praveen I don't want to persis with this back and forth online and subject the members to this continued distraction. I will send one last reply by PM. As long as you guys refrain from making any personal comments about me directly or indirectly we will be fine.

 

[Nara]

...Do I detect a subtle permanent group-ism based on some affiliation that would prohibit a member from agreeing with the views of the other group, even if his thoughts or opinions agree with that other group?

Dear Narayan, you made a post highly suggestive of just the NRIs from Canada and USA who write in this forum. That is a pretty small group and I named them. If there was groupism, it was you who suggested it. Having detected this nonexistent "subtle groupism" you then launched into further speculations, totally uncalled for. What is the point of all this?

Let me clarify what I felt as a "shrill noise"

So, the only citation you have to support your "sheer noise" is some past posts of K. That is it? This is instructive in many levels.

1. Why should you take what one poster said and posit it upon NRI's from Canada and USA who write in online forums?
2. If you disagreed with K, then you confront him at that time, it is not right to nurse this perceived slight and take it out on a generalized group.
3. K is no longer in the forum to defend himself. Citing him is not fair.

As regards Sri K, as he is not participating, it would be unfair for me to bring him in the context.

Precisely, yet you didn't let this sentiment stop you, why? You had your chance to confront K, I don't know whether you did or not, but K is gone, driven away by prasad1 and ozone. Now, as you admit, it is unfair to cite him.

My post steers clear of any political jingoism.

Well, if you say so.

I am concerned only with imbalanced criticism of India and whether someone loves India more or less or who is on top in the scales of their love of India does not enter into the picture.

This is the crux of the problem. If there was imbalanced criticism you confront the criticizer in real time. But, what is being done is like indiscriminate carpet bombing after the person with whom you have a difference is long gone. I don't know what the intent of OP was, but this thread is serving as a vehicle to give expression to all the pent up anger over the views a lot of people disagree with. How can this be anything other than spite?

While on the subject, please have a look at msg # 39 of Sri Y, deftly introducing two-tumbler system and caste into the discussions (and the news article of "The Hindu" makes no mention of the two tumblers.

How is caste issue related to the discussion on hand? Is it a random action by a rationalist, or is it agenda based?

If you have a problem with that why don't you take it up with him. Letting it go now, but keeping a sort of grudge to be taken out at a later day in a generalized form with no care for collateral damage to others is not right.

What is imbalanced and what is not is a subjective thing. One can only have opinions on it. So, a thread like this cannot serve any purpose other than fanning the flames of passion, which it has achieved admirably. So sad Narayan, one whom I erespect, you have fallen prey.

Cheers!

 

[Yamaka]

Mr. TKS, you are too charitable.
Mr. Yamaka wrote

A bitter critic of your motherland, it can only be a ..........., and you are friends with that person. really !!!!
If you always find fault with Hinduism, India, and Indians in general there is definitely some personality disorder. We all bitch about some aspect of Indian politics, practice etc, but the overall the majority of us love India. I am very proud of the achievements, the rich history, and the bright outlook for India.

It seems that this needs a reply from ME, an Atheist, a Globalist and a Naturalized US Citizen, who came initially from Rural India!

I don't buy into this "Motherland" sensationalism! That's for the jingoistic Nationalists to go on a rampage! Not for Yamaka!! Lol

I have plenty of friends who agree with me and who "hate me for all the crap I talk and write" Lol.

I have written about the Glorious Days of Ancient India Circa 7000 BC till 1500 BC... and acknowledged the Golden Days of The Greats of Ashoka, Raja Raja Chola, Akbar and others.

Also, I have pointed out in my historical perspective when and how India slipped into the inexorable decline into the cauldron of where we are today, 2012 AD...

Please go ahead TALK up about your Motherland... I am listening!

Cheers.

 

[biswa]

Now a counter example. Anybody here watch cricket highlights, specially of tours abroad of the Indian cricket team? Anybody notice the large cheering contingent of Indian supporters wearing blue, waving the tri-color and making up a large portion of the ticket sales?

These people may be critical of India in many respects, but that still doesn't stop them from cheering for the national cricket team. Aren't many of us like that? Or did we feel "Curse India! How did they manage to win the world cup?"

Similarly if India gets into a war with another country, is there any doubt where our loyalties will lie?

 

[biswa]

Criticism of India by Resident Indians

For as long as I can remember, I have remembered my uncles, cousins and other elder people criticising India. In fact they were true blue, born and brought up resident Indians. Even today I hear people grumbling about politics, corruption, inflation, call centers, mall culture etc.

Perhaps NRIs complain about different things (which give them a culture shock) like dirty streets, beggars, traffic and praise the mall culture, suburban gated communitys, metro rail etc. Isn't all this just natural?

Well even Americans criticize America, Britishers criticize their government and even many Jews dare to criticize Israel. Seems to be just the natural order of things.

 

[Nara]

...These people may be critical of India in many respects, but that still doesn't stop them from cheering for the national cricket team.

Oh biswa, I really like this post of yours. So sad how India got walloped by the Aussies, but still it is Dhoni's team I root for. I also cheered when our Paksitani brothers took down the Brits.

Similarly if India gets into a war with another country, is there any doubt where our loyalties will lie?

We all have opinions about war, not many of us get to see it first hand but would like somebody else to fight it, die and get maimed, so that we can say we licked em. War is not a game, let us not go there.

Cheers!

 

[biswa]

Defending the NRI "choice"

Another natural human behavior I have noticed is the attitude of resident Indians towards NRIs and vice versa. On the one hand there is the slight envy that the NRIs are enjoying somewhat of an improved lifestyle. On the other hand there is the slight condescension that the NRIs have "made it" in contrast to the residents. These attitudes are diminishing now that the lifestyle gap between India and the West is narrowing.

Yet even then, NRIs are seen somewhat as betrayers, having turned their back on the mother country and opportunistically acquired a shiny new passport. They are subtly required to justify why they would not come back either for old parents or for the moral rectitude of their kids.

The NRIs in their turn feel that they owe nothing to anyone, they have made their own future and point out the morals (or lack thereof) of Indian teenagers. Their skin crawls when having to deal with beggars, auto drivers, coolies or the occasional government babu. They feel obliged to defend the choice they have made and one way to do that is to point out the problems with the road they did not take.

 

[Nara]

.... Still on this subject, words like 'idiot', 'stupid' etc., even though technically okay in terms of attacking one's ideas, tend to be taken personally and should be avoided.

Dear Shri KRS, let me start with a comment on the above, I never called anyone an idiot and I rarely if ever characterize an idea "stupid". Even in this instance I only said -- "Who Loves India More" contests are silly, and may I add, stupid.", which is not really calling any particular person's idea stupid, let alone any individual one. In other words, I don't believe in calling somebody eles's idea stupid just because I don't agree with it. My preference is deference, not insults direct or disguised.

Now about criticizing India, .... This is the same reason, why I am attached to India, seeing the country with sympathetic stance, while not wishing to reject her hoary past as all bad. ....I suspect, this is where this topic arises from, where folks like Professor Nara Ji and Sri Yamaka Ji seem to reject certain aspects of our lives in India that is viewed as rejecting the values of the motherland.

I appreciate your reasoned presentation. I can't talk for Y, and therefore talking just for myself, I would like to emphasize what you have said yourself, I don't reject everything from the past, and even the aspects I reject I don't hold all our forefathers guilty, most of them very likely didn't know any better, much like many today. Further, I don't see atheism by itself a rejection of the hoary past of India. If we are able to go back far enough it is inevitable somewhere in our ancestral tree there is an atheist, a Buddhist, or whatever else, even if strictly traverse along the paternal side.

My technical agnosticism/practical atheism is not a rejection of our hoary past, but a validation of what at least some of my ancient forefathers stood for. So, if anything, my rationalism is a celebration of our hoary past.

Cheers!

 

[Nara]

....Their skin crawls when having to deal with beggars, auto drivers, coolies or the occasional government babu. They feel obliged to defend the choice they have made and one way to do that is to point out the problems with the road they did not take.

Dear biswa, I appreciate your balanced presentation. I am always wary of personal anecdotes, they don't mean much for the purpose of drawing broad understanding. But let me share mine for what it is worth.

Ever since I took up a job and decided to make my living in the U.S. I entertained the idea of one day returning to India for good. My wife was always against this idea, but I nurished it like a child. Then, I got an opportunity to spend an extended period of time in India a few years ago and I decided to give it a try -- if it worked out I was going to take early retirement and live in India the rest of our times. My wife went along, what else could she do.

I don't want to go into the details, we are back here in the U.S. and I know I can never live in India. This has nothing to do with how bad or how good India is. I am so used to a different life style it is impossible for me to have a happy and peaceful life there. Does this mean I love India any less, absolutely not.

When I criticize India, like I do when I see India inexorably becoming a vassal of USA, my heart weeps. When I read atrocities visited upon poor and powerless people, whether in a hamlet in Tamil Nadu or the resource rich central India, I am outraged. As you mentioned about Cricket, when Dhoni lifted that World Cup I felt proud.

Each individual has his/her own relationship with India. Nobody has the right to say his/her love is superior to that of others with whom they disagree. What one sees as imbalanced may be seen as nuanced by others. So, I reject the whole basis of this thread.

Cheers!

 

[Yamaka]

".... I can't talk for Y, and therefore talking just for myself,....." Nara in post #71.

Here Yamaka is talking on this -

I have given my reasons why I am an Atheist, and what exactly in the Theism I negate or reject in my thinking: 1. The Super Natural Agent in the form of Super-Human Personal Gods. 2. The need or the usefulness of the prayers, poojas and bhajans and 3. The Poorva Janma Karma.

Professionally, I am a Senior Neuro-Scientist. As such, I am a logical thinker, not burdened by any Tradition and/or Fear and or Superstition.

I don't like words like "Motherland" or "Fatherland" which are sensational words for Jingoistic Nationalists... I am a Globalist.

Also, I have said that I am standing in Solidarity with the Poor and Voiceless in the World, including India, Haiti, Africa, Central and South America.

I have also written about

"Yaarukkaha Azhuvan Yamaka?....... For the India91%".

Again, Where's the "rejecting the values of motherland" in my posts?

All pure imaginations!

Wait & watch.

 

[tks]

Dr. tks Avl:I understand your intent.. "imbalanced" is quite a subjective matter. I have been very clear from the outset that I am NOT a Nationalist, although I read frequently The Hindu, T of I, Hindustan Times and listen to Tamil music via Tamilo.com.I have a "tribal instinct" to connect with the Rural India and to know the progress India has made there...Whether I run away from India or not, India in me is trying to connect with Rural India on a daily basis.What Made Me Happy and Unhappy, recently?:I read from the Hindu that school students from TN (& Himachal Pradesh) are globally competitive although they rank just about 60%.. This made me happy because of all the States, TN students can stand up to the global quality and are trying to move up the global ladder.Also, I read TN is one of the Tier One States in India in per capita GDP. And, in Performing and Visual Arts & Music, Tamils are at the forefront, globally competitive (read Oscar Rahman, IR, MSV, Mani Ratnam, K Balachander etc).This makes me feel good, and happy because in spite of all the dirty politics, TN people are at the forefront economically and culturally.By the same token,Today I read that one Union Minister lamented that Indian women demand wireless services, but they don't demand toilet facilities. A full 60% of people defecate in the open air in India!This makes me very angry and unhappy.Please tell me whether I am "imbalanced" in my view of India.Innum varum....Cheers.

Dr Y Avl -Though I do not want to be a judge of any member's views, let me answer you since you asked a question. I am sure many members here, in my view, will tend to agree with your reaction to the events that you have chosen to highlight. In other words it is a balanced expression of India in my view based on what you have posted above. I have not been regularly visiting the forum and keeping up with all the posts. So I have not read most of your posts for me to provide a balanced view LoLDoes one feel a sense of belonging and identity with India - a place of their birth? I cannot answer this for others, but only for myself.How do you answer the above question? I am not talking about feeling to connect with tribal India here

 

[ShivKC]

".... .

I don't like words like "Motherland" or "Fatherland" which are sensational words for Jingoistic Nationalists... I am a Globalist.

i tend to agree with this.

some one said, patriotism is the refined form of fascism. killings in war are all induced by this so called patriotism.

'imagine there's no countries, isn't hard to do. nothing to kill or die for.....(its for yamaka to sing the next line , but im carefully putting a full stop here )