Alternative views vs Detrimental criticism

[praveen]

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Prasadji,

Mr. Praveen,
You chose to reply to me but the quotes are not from my post.

me quoting your post or someone else post is not an issue. What i have posted addresses everything (i believe) - be it what you said or what someone else said.

You as the administrator, is assumed to be impartial, but you expect me to not post to a direct question to me?

I am human. I did not come from an another planet. So what feels right to me is what i go with. Ofcourse that means someone else might feel differently. I cannot help it neither can anyone else.
At the same time, i have not studied all the books (our books) to have an excellent view of everything under the sun. I know what i read from here and what my mother tells me. to put it bluntly, i know zero when compared to the detailed posting that everyone does. Thats one reason why i do nt participate. If i do, then this partial/impartial question crops up and one that had caused an issue to the moderators who where here before.

you expect me to not post to a direct question to me?

No. I expect you (and everyone else) to post in a sensible way without launching a veiled attack or in a manner that can be taken as a veiled attack.
Only when it goes personal, i interfere and do what i think is right. Otherwise you are free to question and answer anything under the sun and over it.

If you think that when someone says that Brahmins caused the entire India to be poor, I do feel that I can question that. Similarly someone says that Hindu Temples should be demolished or the person demolishing should be revered that person must be questioned.

By all means, please do question something if it does not feel true. All that i am saying is do it in a sensible/open minded manner. If you say god exists and if i say god does not exist, it does not mean you can call me names or attack me. It means we have a lot more indepth stuff to discuss

But like you said it is your site and you can decide how you want to run it.

As i said in a different thread, the site is what it is because of you members. Whatever i have done till date (except for few things) is public knowledge and is shared with you all.
right from day one i decided it will be a site that provides a platform with freedom of expression and till date i believe it has been like that.

 

[amala]

Tamilbrahmins.com is like a box of chocolates (yes I'm stealing from Forrest Gump here! sorry). You just never know what you're going to get

 

[kunjuppu]

I am surprised to see Kunjuppu, and Sangom congratulating each other as if they won the mindset if the entire world, please do not break your arm in trying to pat your own back. LOL

This a forum to discuss and learn, not winning for your side.

prasad,

there is nothing wrong in patting someone on the back. and also being patted on the back.

i have done it to others. i have done it to you too, maybe.

the issue here is one of accommodating several ideas. practise wise, i am probably closer to you, for i am a believer, go to temple, and identify myself as a casteless hindu. that is how i have brought up mychildren.

however, i do not feel offended, because of sangom's views. i find most of them valid, and also, a good shot in the arm, for those of us, who wish to reform the inanane customs and practices that we still follow. for no reason, than this was followed by our ancestor, and we in turn, as with every generation before, water it down and corrupt it, to an extent that it is no where near its original form.

it at all anything, we should embrace diversity. diversity of an erudite kind. one might as well remember, that folks like sangom or nara, are better read than most of us, and could hold on their own, re any theological arguements. instead of treating them with the resepect that any erudition deserves, we find some, abominably calling for their ouster from the forum.

i think, some of tambrams, wish that the world will go awayfrom them. nobody would bother their girls or wish to marry them. everyone will be given jobs and medical college seats according to their high school marks. and such like. unfortunately the world does not behave like that. most of us have met the challenges head on. there are some who whine and complain, of abuse to hindu religion, of reservations, of ic marriages - well guess what - this is the reality of today. unless we face them head on, and adjust, we are as helpless as a non-swimmer when pushed into water.

 

[Yamaka]

Mr. Sangom:

I personally welcome this thread; it seems to indicate your sincere intent to lay down some ground rules as to how best alternative views or criticism can be debated.

Here in lies my basic concern!!

1. I cannot prove the non-existence of religion or God inasmuch as you can prove the existence of it!! Dont you think, if it was possible, that debate would have been settled a long time ago, and with that score settled, the world may be a far better place today!!

2. Religion and God: The presence OR absence of these are our personal business. I should have no business to question your faith (or lack there of) inasmuch as you dont have any business to question mine!! An example: I start a thread in full belief that there is value in going to temples based on my experience and I want to encourage my kids to do the same thing, now, this is my belief and from postings, I believe many people also believed in this. You have every right to feel opposed to it but unless you can contribute how you can encourage our kids to go to temples, I see no value in your questioning the existence of God or religion in this thread!! Now, what is the point of questioning why we must go to the temple? So I believe, within this context, questioning 'why' we must go to temples in this thread to me, is detrimental!!

If you start another thread saying 'How we should encourage our kids not go to temples and it is intended for atheists' it is your prerogative and I have no right to question your belief.

As long as we understand and offer opinions within the parameters of what the question is, without questioning one's foundation of faith, I agree with debates with some decorum.

Peace...

I noticed that many Threads meander from the OP. This is not necessarily bad. After all, this is an Open Public Forum where all sorts of opinions need to be accommodated. Unless the owner objects!

Whenever, there is discussion of Temples or Worshiping places, God & Religion, Alternate Views WIILL come. That's the nature of the beast!

People need not show so much anger about it!

I read all posts, time permitting... my suggestion to others is PLEASE don't read certain people's posts if you don't have open mind!

Where's the problem?

 

[Yamaka]

Here is my view on why the change has to be with the other side.

I find in my experience with this forum, more often than not there is only putting down of hinduism and no real alternative views. To my knowledge no one has ever explained how the present, is a more evolved era than the past. Do not show me the scientific and technological advancements. Do you think our ancestors couldn't have accomplished that? The fact is they had their priorities right. They gave importance for mental discipline. Your scientific inventions and discoveries are a child's play then. My suggestion is there is no real reason to be blinded by accomplishments that are grossly overvalued and in the process belittle our own wisdom that has lasting value. Let's learn to recognize our own strengths instead of trying to live on alien wisdom.

Dear Sravna:

1. I put down not just Hinduism, but ALL religions and the Beliefs of Super-Natural Agent (called Ishwara, Allah or Jesus).
2. I have always given alternatives: Open inquiry with questions like why, how, show me it etc etc. This is done in Scientific Inquiry which has produced the Science Engineering and Technology that you see all around you since days of Industrial Revolution since 1750.

I know you don't like to talk about it... because it stands right in front of you - your computer that's broadband connected!LOL

3. Our ancestors had no clue as to what it is that we enjoy in the SET today.

4. Our ancestors lived their lives the way they liked... we need not blindly follow them... we need to live our lives in line with the positive changes to today in this early 21 Century.

5. We do have mental discipline today... what makes you think that only our ancestors had it?

6. The accomplishments of SET are REAL, tangible and in use by ALL of us, including you the Theists! Use it and enjoy well.

7. You had this very mistaken view that wisdom belongs to our Theist Ancestors. FALSE.. wisdom belongs to all of US present and the past, Theists and Atheists. Theists believe in certain Super-Natural Agent, and Atheists don't. That's all.

8. Our strength is what we do today: We ALL consume the utility of the SET with pride whether we believe in God or not...

That's the majesty of SET..

Get out of that old orthodox mindset that our Theist Ancestors were SUPERIOR!

 

[Raghy]

Dear Sri. Servall Sir, Greetings.

2. Religion and God: The presence OR absence of these are our personal business. I should have no business to question your faith (or lack there of) inasmuch as you dont have any business to question mine!! An example: I start a thread in full belief that there is value in going to temples based on my experience and I want to encourage my kids to do the same thing, now, this is my belief and from postings, I believe many people also believed in this. You have every right to feel opposed to it but unless you can contribute how you can encourage our kids to go to temples, I see no value in your questioning the existence of God or religion in this thread!! Now, what is the point of questioning why we must go to the temple? So I believe, within this context, questioning 'why' we must go to temples in this thread to me, is detrimental!!

With due respect to your opinions, I wish to point out to you, you posed a question about encouraging our kids to visit temples. I have two kids, a boy and a girl. For anything I ask them to do, I had to explain 'why' they should do it; otherwise, I might as well kiss the notion gooodbye! Only when I could convince them, they did anything. I don't know about others, I still face uphill task, in explaining why.

Explaing the 'why' question to our children is one method to encourage them to visit temples. Ironically, you are the thread starter who posed the question; analysing the 'why' factor is part of the answer to your question.

I can see you are not too happy about the 'why' question. But, the 'why' factor is an important part of the answer to your own questions.

So, kindly allow me to say, the 'why' question is not detrimental to your sincere query. It is only helping your cause. Hope this explains.

Cheers!

 

[sangom]

Here is my view on why the change has to be with the other side.

I find in my experience with this forum, more often than not there is only putting down of hinduism and no real alternative views.

Shri Sravna,

This forum is not about or against hinduism, or, for that matter any topic under the sun as has now been clearly explained by Shri Praveen here. Therefore, "putting down hinduism" is not prohibited in itself as long as the criticisms against hindu religion are backed by solid evidence. There is no written or implied condition for participation in this forum like one should not criticise topics x,y or z in this forum so long as the criticism is in polite language.

As for AV, it may not be feasible to suggest an AV for each and everything. For example tabras have practically discarded "oupaasanam"; have they provided any alternative? The dharmasastra lays down in clear terms that a dwija father who does not marry off his daughter before she attains puberty, should, as 'praayascitta' for that sin, consume the menstrual flow of his daughter till she is married off. Have we thought of any alternative to this and have we not meekly and with the least show of allegience to our scriptures, accepted the Sarda Act and all the subsequent amendments? So, asking for AV in each and every case is not practical; we may have to jettison many unwanted cargo in order to be able to sail through the rapidly changing times.

To my knowledge no one has ever explained how the present, is a more evolved era than the past. Do not show me the scientific and technological advancements. Do you think our ancestors couldn't have accomplished that?

I would request you to prove logically that our ancestors could have achieved all the scientific progress, which the world has achieved, by themselves. My considered answer is that the brahmins who were the only intellectuals in our country had developed only the capacity for abstract thinking and practical physical phenomena also were explained - rather smugly - with the interpolation of one deity or another. In short we would have developed into a typical witchcraft-dominated tribal-like society but for the British colonising us.

Hence the present era is definitely a more evolved era than say 500 or 1000 years ago, imo.

The fact is they had their priorities right. They gave importance for mental discipline. Your scientific inventions and discoveries are a child's play then. My suggestion is there is no real reason to be blinded by accomplishments that are grossly overvalued and in the process belittle our own wisdom that has lasting value. Let's learn to recognize our own strengths instead of trying to live on alien wisdom.

I personally do not consider that our ancestors had any priorities; they thought that the vedas or whatever scriptures they held sacrosanct in their minds, would help them to live a comfortable life and tide over difficulties. Since much of the intellectual speculations of our ancestors was concerned with esoteric subject matter, their attention was hardly ever on to the physical life, this world and so on. The attitude was like not picking up the mango fruit which is lying on the ground but always trying to get at the one on the topmost branch of the tree. கீழெ விழுந்துகிடக்கும் நல்ல மாம்பழத்தைத் திங்காமல், உச்சாணிக் கொம்பிலிருக்கும் பழத்துக்கு கல்லெறிந்தது போல.

You say "Let's learn to recognize our own strengths instead of trying to live on alien wisdom." If you strictly follow this dictum you will not be able to conduct your IIT JEE training course on line, or do any of your income-earning jobs because all these are products of "alien wisdom" purely.

 

[sravna]

Dear Shri Sangom,

These are the common criticisms levelled against hinduism

1. It encourages fatalistic thinking

Nothing can be farther from truth. It only explains through the karma theory why one is suffering and the other enjoying his life when the former lives a principled life while the latter does not. I would like to digress a bit here. While I firmly believe that everything is preordained, that is only from the perspective of God. For a human the physical world is a reality and he totally believes in it. The human mind operates as if it is the originator of thoughts and deeds though it is a delusion. Illusion is a nice aspect in the overall scheme of things because it appears as reality and the perceiver believes it is the reality. Unless he has this illusion of reality he cannot operate effectively in the physical world and benefit from it. Only at the right moment after all his experiences does the truth strike him. So for all practical purposes physical world is a reality and freewill exists.

Coming back to the topic, only gives a reason for seemingly inexplicable things from the perspective of a moral person .Also it only says not be enslaved by anything, not even focus on the fruits of your actions. So it only shows you to be freer. The fatalism aspect cannot be attributed to hindu thought.

2. It is an empty ideology with no practical value.

Nothing can be far from the truth. In one of my posts I mentioned how the hindu philosophy has yielded vast practical knowledge from medicine, health, self improvement to politics, economics, sociology, astronomy, warfare and even sex and marital life. A coherent philosophy pervades these fields and not like the bits and pieces type of understanding of today. Very wisely they developed the metaphysics first and derived the necessary practical knowledge
later.

3. Hinduism practised the evil caste system

Here it is a case of right philosophy but faulty practice. It is my understanding that the present day birth based caste system is only a later development and was not the originally envisioned one. By focusing only on the glitch endlessly let us not miss the better aspects.

4. Hinduism promotes superstitions

Superstitions are beliefs for which there are no rational explanations. While I agree that some may have found their way into mainstream hinduism without justification all such beliefs cannot be dismissed as irrational. The best we can say is that, at present there is no rational explanation of such beliefs. Do you think that people cannot be irrational without such superstitions?So as long as there are harmlessly practiced and serve a psychological purpose there is no need to vehemently condemn it.

The above are some of the serious criticisms all of which I think are misplaced. If anyone can offer logical rebuttals of the above, I would welcome it.

 

[Nara]

The above are some of the serious criticisms all of which I think are misplaced. If anyone can offer logical rebuttals of the above, I would welcome it.

sravna, you want logical rebuttal for your arguments that are just belief systems, you can simply swat away any rebuttal, however supremely logical it may be, by simply asserting your arguments. This is what has happened in the past and therefore, I feel, trying to have a logical debate with you is not logical.

1. It encourages fatalistic thinking

Nothing can be farther from truth. It only explains through the karma theory why one is suffering and the other enjoying his life when the former lives a principled life while the latter does not.

What logical empirical evidence do you have for poorva janma karma with which Hinduism explains suffering? It is just asserted as the only possible logical explanation, i.e. putting the cart before the horse. That is, this is the only logical explanation you have and therefore it must be a logical explanation, a circular logic fallacy.

I would like to digress a bit here.

Your digression is full of contradicitons, which of course you will deny and say I am not evolved enough to understand the subtitles of real real and unreal real etc. The upshot of what you are saying is "everything is preordained", in real reality there is no free will, but in the lesser reality of our lives, we are ignorant of it and therefore, we must take it as not preordained and act as though we have free will. The only way to untangle all this is to assert some religious philosophy completely separate from logic.

2. It is an empty ideology with no practical value.

Nothing can be far from the truth. In one of my posts I mentioned how the hindu philosophy has yielded vast practical knowledge from medicine, health, self improvement to politics, economics, sociology, astronomy, warfare and even sex and marital life.

The secular achievements of ancient Indians cannot be simply appropriated as achievements of Hindu philosophy any more than the western scientific advancements can be attributed to Christian philosophy.

3. Hinduism practised the evil caste system

Here it is a case of right philosophy but faulty practice.

First, how good a philosopy can be that cannot be implemented in any other way. Sometime back I posed several questions to you about implementing varna system that you did not answer. Therein lies the problem. The varna system simply cannot be implemented in any other way but how it turned out to be.

4. Hinduism promotes superstitions

...... Do you think that people cannot be irrational without such superstitions?

Another logical fallacy, whether people can be irrational without superstitions is completely irrelevant to the point #4 you have stated above. Then you go on to say why condemn it if it does not cause harm, which means you do concede Hinduism promotes superstitions, but there is no harm. But there is harm.

Anyway, sravna, you make a post filled with illogical claims and ask for logical rebuttals, and now you are going to say I got it all wrong without offering one logical and rational explanation as to why -- c'est la vie.

Cheers!

 

[sangom]

Dear Shri Sangom,

These are the common criticisms levelled against hinduism

1. It encourages fatalistic thinking

Nothing can be farther from truth. It only explains through the karma theory why one is suffering and the other enjoying his life when the former lives a principled life while the latter does not. I would like to digress a bit here. While I firmly believe that everything is preordained, that is only from the perspective of God. For a human the physical world is a reality and he totally believes in it. The human mind operates as if it is the originator of thoughts and deeds though it is a delusion. Illusion is a nice aspect in the overall scheme of things because it appears as reality and the perceiver believes it is the reality. Unless he has this illusion of reality he cannot operate effectively in the physical world and benefit from it. Only at the right moment after all his experiences does the truth strike him. So for all practical purposes physical world is a reality and freewill exists.

Coming back to the topic, only gives a reason for seemingly inexplicable things from the perspective of a moral person .Also it only says not be enslaved by anything, not even focus on the fruits of your actions. So it only shows you to be freer. The fatalism aspect cannot be attributed to hindu thought.

2. It is an empty ideology with no practical value.

Nothing can be far from the truth. In one of my posts I mentioned how the hindu philosophy has yielded vast practical knowledge from medicine, health, self improvement to politics, economics, sociology, astronomy, warfare and even sex and marital life. A coherent philosophy pervades these fields and not like the bits and pieces type of understanding of today. Very wisely they developed the metaphysics first and derived the necessary practical knowledge
later.

3. Hinduism practised the evil caste system

Here it is a case of right philosophy but faulty practice. It is my understanding that the present day birth based caste system is only a later development and was not the originally envisioned one. By focusing only on the glitch endlessly let us not miss the better aspects.

4. Hinduism promotes superstitions

Superstitions are beliefs for which there are no rational explanations. While I agree that some may have found their way into mainstream hinduism without justification all such beliefs cannot be dismissed as irrational. The best we can say is that, at present there is no rational explanation of such beliefs. Do you think that people cannot be irrational without such superstitions?So as long as there are harmlessly practiced and serve a psychological purpose there is no need to vehemently condemn it.

The above are some of the serious criticisms all of which I think are misplaced. If anyone can offer logical rebuttals of the above, I would welcome it.

Shri Sravna,

I presume you have been satisfied with the answers in my post# 32 above, as far as the points/doubts raised in your post#17. Or is it that you are simply and adroitly changing tack? Any way, I expect at least an acknowledgement about the points contained in post# 32.

Coming to your above post, my comments are as under:—

1. Fatalism

I don't know if hinduism promotes fatalism so much as bhakti, god's grace etc. Because of the huge amount of bhakti literature of different sorts, there possibly is a confusion in the ordinary minds about karma (fate) vs god's grace (free will), but very usually if someone fails to get his desire/s fulfilled despite his trying all the steps prescribed by religion, he usually blames it on his karma or fate. Whether "god" is above or below fate is also a confusion in hinduism; markandeya's story goes to show that Siva is over even Yama, but in Pareekshit the entire bhagavatam could at best only prepare him to face his inevitable end by snake-bite. This lack of clarity is a point that goes against hinduism, but imho, the ordinary hindu is not bothered to look into all these; he has a sumptuous 100-course buffet dinner and is not bothered to test the quality.

2. Empty ideology with no practical value

This is true to a large extent but I feel other religions are no better. It is because religions, basically, try to market their own brand of the supernatural god about which man, at least those who are alive today, has had no clear idea; man does not even know for sure that god exists.
In my school days some hill tribe people used to come down to this city periodically and spread their wares of so-called herbs by the roadside (foot-path) and start their lecture praising the medicinal properties of the various herbs. Since even in those days a good % of people had the feeling that anything old, ancient must be surely better, than what then obtained currently, many used to buy those oils மயிலெண்ணை(will make the body supple like an elastic band), புலியெண்ணை(increase sexual vigour so one can be a virtual tiger in the bedroom), etc. This sort of an unproved but unchangeable fixation to the past glory, is what makes one think that our ancients were adept at anything and everything.

BTW, your statement "the hindu philosophy has yielded vast practical knowledge from medicine, health, self improvement to politics, economics, sociology, astronomy, warfare and even sex and marital life. A coherent philosophy pervades these fields and not like the bits and pieces type of understanding of today. " appears strange; can you show clear evidence to support that hindu philosophy it was which yielded vast practical knowledge from medicine, health, self improvement to politics, economics, sociology, astronomy, warfare and even sex and marital life?

3. Evil caste system

I do not agree with your premise. Even in the earlier upanishads, which could not have been much later than the vedas, the guru is reported to ask the new aspirant as to who his father was and then subsequently takes him to be a brahmana though the boy's paternity was unknown even to the mother. This shows that a system of pre assessing the caste/varna (CV for short) must have existed even in those days and the "glitch" that you allude to must have been co-eval with the interpolation in Rigveda of the purushasukta (which is accepted as true by most scholars).

Secondly, you find very many instances of princes being sent to gurukulam by the kings but there is not one instance (even asamanjasa) of the guru telling the king, your son is not a kshatriya according to his gunas or innate tendencies but he looks to me to be a brahmana, vaisya or sudra; if you know of such instances please post them.

Hence, imho, the caste system was supposed to be "by birth" only, ab initio and it took millennia and western philosophical thinking of egalitarianism to break free of this evil practice.

4. Superstitions

I agree superstitions might have originated out of ignorance and inability to provide rational explanations. But the religion nurturing superstitions will be a great mistake especially when you hold that our ancients could do practically anything under or over the sun. (hindu philosophy has yielded vast practical knowledge from medicine, health, self improvement to politics, economics, sociology, astronomy, warfare and even sex and marital life. A coherent philosophy pervades these fields and not like the bits and pieces type of understanding of today. Very wisely they developed the metaphysics first and derived the necessary practical knowledge later.) Either the ancients were not-so-wise after all and gave superstitions the place they have, in order to cover up their ignorance in many areas, or, they knew everything but deliberately misled the people at large; you can choose!

To sum up, hinduism according to my considered view, has been a stream of thoughts which has undergone vast changes with space and time, has assimilated many different religious cults and philosophies and so on. But today there is a definite trend for resurrecting some of its aspects, long discarded by its practitioners themselves, because some people want to project to the outside world a larger than life image of hinduism and its achievements. Such people may at best be described, borrowing your words, as "believing an illusion to be the reality".

 

[prasad1]

4. Superstitions
"believing an illusion to be the reality".

Would you put Astrology, Gothram, origin of Caste system, Migration theory, our own imaginary conviction in our knowledge. It is not Hinduism alone it is the humanity. But when you say that Hinduism has superstition it seems you are condemning Hinduism, where as it is prevalent world over.

Superstition is a a worldwide phenomenon.

Napoleon Bonaparte feared cats (ailurophobia) and the number 13.

Winston Churchill petted black cats to obtain good luck.

Roger Federer: Locks himself in a bathroom the day before each match and screams at himself for hours

 

[sangom]

Would you put Astrology, Gothram, origin of Caste system, Migration theory, our own imaginary conviction in our knowledge. It is not Hinduism alone it is the humanity. But when you say that Hinduism has superstition it seems you are condemning Hinduism, where as it is prevalent world over.

Superstition is a a worldwide phenomenon.

Shri prasad1,

I used the words "believing an illusion to be the reality" in a different context and a different sense. Hence no comments please.

There is a difference between personal quirks like those listed above and something sanctioned, prescribed and elevated to the status of esoteric knowledge by religion. Example, Rahukalam; there are also guLika kalam, yamakantam and so on and I knew aome persons who will eliminate all these for doing anything worthwhile, including admission to school. And since most activities will involve going out of the house, varasoolam and sakunam should also be favourable. One govt. officer believed in sakunam so much that there were days he would be forced to take casual leave because no good sakunam came till 12 noon! These are 'superstitions' and I feel there is a need to distinguish between the two.

The former might be curable by psychiatric treatment while the latter affects a group and so no psychiatrist will take that case.

 

[sravna]

Dear Shri Sangom,

Yes I agree that one believing in karma theory thinks that the good and bad in his present life is due to poorva janma karma. Consider this if a good person suffers in life for practising right values, what is the motive for him to continue to be good? That is exactly what is happening now. With belief in god going down, the motive to be good is waning. At least at a psychological level the karma theory reassures him and keeps him going. Karma theory is not to be considered in isolation but as part of the total prescription while evaluating its usefulness. According to you when someone does not get his desires fulfilled he blames it on his karma. Hinduism also says desires for external things should be overcome. Follow hinduism in its essence and entirety and if you can accomplish that there would be no blame game.

Some of the practical stuff that emerged out of hindu philosophy.

Arthasastra - Statecraft, Econimic policy and Military Strategy
Ayurveda - Medicine
Yoga - Health and fitness
Kamasutra - Pleasure and family life
Varna System - Social system
Astronomy etc,

Now even assuming that the varna system could not have been practiced other than on the basis of birth it is only one of the myriad number of ways that discrimination,though condemnable, could have been practiced. What do you say about less intellectually endowed people being discriminated again. Can even one become a CEO of a company, president of a country or a university professor? Why not offer them such posts? Is it their mistake they are born that way? Just because a group is discriminated against doesn't make the former worse than the latter. If you say all are equally intelligent why spend millions of dollars devising intelligence tests? Shed of your hypocrisy and double standards first.

Now how about the poorest of poor? Do they have the same opportunities as the ultra rich for advancement in life? Again is it their sin they are born poor? The point is discrimination will never end as long as there is heterogeniety. At least in the case of varna even assuming it was birth based, it was on spiritual grounds. People who therefore discriminated were supposed to have spiritual qualities. So if something amiss occurred in the system they would care to rectify it, never mind if it was on pressure. But these materialists who perpetuate discrimination are hardened ones. They would try to promote their cause at any cost. For them higher values do not mean anything unless you can make money out of it.

Regarding superstitions, I rule out that our ancients were not able to give reason for the beliefs. Also for ones who propounded such high philosophies to lead the people on the right path,there is no need to mislead people through superstitions. My guess would be faith held an important place at that time. People did not question their gurus. but that would seem odd today because the number of fraudulent people has increased manifold. Besides the western culture of questioning is finding favor among todays generation.

 

[prasad1]

Shri prasad1,

I used the words "believing an illusion to be the reality" in a different context and a different sense. Hence no comments please.

There is a difference between personal quirks like those listed above and something sanctioned, prescribed and elevated to the status of esoteric knowledge by religion. Example, Rahukalam; there are also guLika kalam, yamakantam and so on and I knew aome persons who will eliminate all these for doing anything worthwhile, including admission to school. And since most activities will involve going out of the house, varasoolam and sakunam should also be favourable. One govt. officer believed in sakunam so much that there were days he would be forced to take casual leave because no good sakunam came till 12 noon! These are 'superstitions' and I feel there is a need to distinguish between the two.

The former might be curable by psychiatric treatment while the latter affects a group and so no psychiatrist will take that case.

Smartly deflected, LOL.
How about infallibility of what is written in Bible or Koran? Would you call it superstition? That God created world in 6 days and took 7 days off, An angel appeared to give God'd message? Just to show that superstitious, and convenient lies keep the world going. WMD in Iraq.

 

[sangom]

Dear Shri Sangom,

Yes I agree that one believing in karma theory thinks that the good and bad in his present life is due to poorva janma karma. Consider this if a good person suffers in life for practising right values, what is the motive for him to continue to be good? That is exactly what is happening now. With belief in god going down, the motive to be good is waning. At least at a psychological level the karma theory reassures him and keeps him going. Karma theory is not to be considered in isolation but as part of the total prescription while evaluating its usefulness. According to you when someone does not get his desires fulfilled he blames it on his karma. Hinduism also says desires for external things should be overcome. Follow hinduism in its essence and entirety and if you can accomplish that there would be no blame game.

Some of the practical stuff that emerged out of hindu philosophy.

Arthasastra - Statecraft, Econimic policy and Military Strategy
Ayurveda - Medicine
Yoga - Health and fitness
Kamasutra - Pleasure and family life
Varna System - Social system
Astronomy etc,

Now even assuming that the varna system could not have been practiced other than on the basis of birth it is only one of the myriad number of ways that discrimination,though condemnable, could have been practiced. What do you say about less intellectually endowed people being discriminated again. Can even one become a CEO of a company, president of a country or a university professor? Why not offer them such posts? Is it their mistake they are born that way? Just because a group is discriminated against doesn't make the former worse than the latter. If you say all are equally intelligent why spend millions of dollars devising intelligence tests? Shed of your hypocrisy and double standards first.

Now how about the poorest of poor? Do they have the same opportunities as the ultra rich for advancement in life? Again is it their sin they are born poor? The point is discrimination will never end as long as there is heterogeniety. At least in the case of varna even assuming it was birth based, it was on spiritual grounds. People who therefore discriminated were supposed to have spiritual qualities. So if something amiss occurred in the system they would care to rectify it, never mind if it was on pressure. But these materialists who perpetuate discrimination are hardened ones. They would try to promote their cause at any cost. For them higher values do not mean anything unless you can make money out of it.

Regarding superstitions, I rule out that our ancients were not able to give reason for the beliefs. Also for ones who propounded such high philosophies to lead the people on the right path,there is no need to mislead people through superstitions. My guess would be faith held an important place at that time. People did not question their gurus. but that would seem odd today because the number of fraudulent people has increased manifold. Besides the western culture of questioning is finding favor among todays generation.

Shri Sravna,

You and I think very differently, often contrarily. Hence, there is no possibility of my views even becoming parallel to yours.

I do not want to unnecessarily go on making further posts. You are free to hold on to your opinions and I to mine. Why not you also follow hinduism of your imagined variety "in its essence and entirety" and try to stop finding fault with the materialists who you say are hardened ones? Practice what you preach.

 

[sravna]

No problem Shri Sangom. Thanks for your views anyway. It is definitely helpful to know what the other side thinks.