How should we overcome our desires?

[Raghy]

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Dear Sri. Raju, Greetings.

I have read your answer fully. Still my question to you stays. What is this Ananda? Can we define it? You can represent positive and negative integers in a straight line with zero as the centre point. If negative integers are misery (துக்கம் in tamil), is Ananda the absence of misery like the positive integers? This ananda is always a fruit of certain actions. So actions are not ananda. Then what else is it?

The following write up is my personal opinion only. Ananda is an experience. It is an unique experience. Ananda does not have an opposite to it. There are no +ve & -ve vectors with zero in the middle. Ananda is a free standing experience. By the way, ananda is not just the product of happiness or calmness alone.

Ananda can be product of an extreme pain too. I experienced that when I was 14 years old. But I did not recognise it at that time. That's when I experienced the maximum of my physical pain. Some of the members may have experienced the same pain, but with a bit of effort would have tried to forget that pain. I didn't. I broke both my arms elbow downwards ( two places in right arm; three places in left arm; both ulna and radial bones.... quite a tall tree too!). It was set in Puthoor, Andhra. Naturally no pain relievers, no anaesthetic medications.... When I left arm was set, I couldn't believe the pain.. then, when it was 'once more!' in my right arm, after the initial pain, I kind of went numb. When I came back for the second round after 15 days, that pain really didn't do much at all.

Ananda can't be defined. Since it is an experience, it is subjective. There may be persons who never experienced ananda in their whole life. In my opinion, to experience ananda, there shouyld be a feeling of content, some sacrifice, some expression love and kindness.. since it can't be defoned, I can't really explain in as many words.

In his great work திருவாய்மொழி (Thiruvoimozhy) Nammalwar begins his very first verse with the words உயர்வற உயர்நலம் உடையவன் யவனவன்.........Great Acharyas who wrote commentaries on this first line have interpreted this word உயர்வு as absence of ananda. I have often wondered what is exactly meant here. Let us what inputs are given here on this question.

One can't experience ananda on his/her own. There has to be an external connection. When such connection is made there is no உயர்வு or தாழ்வு. It's equal. Just at the same level. That's why at that level "paramatma" will be equal to "jeevatma". That's what we say joining together. Azhwar is correct. If there is உயர்வு, then that means there would be தாழ்வு, so they can't be at the same level, so there can't be anandam.

Cheers!

 

[suraju06]

Dear Raghy,

Sangom sir said in his post #250:

there is no harm in a person having desire/s for a good, healthy and long life, a happy married life with the boon of healthy, intelligent children and grandchildren and increased prosperity, in one's life.The taboo comes in only when someone desires something which goes against the accepted social code of his/her time, or, the desire is intrinsically harmful for the person concerned and/or to the society

(emphasis mine)

When I asked the question to a learned scholar who thinks as well as expresses himself only in Tamil he gave me this answer:

ஆத்மா ஆனந்தமயமானது. இங்கே ஆனந்தம் என்று சொல்லப்பட்டிருப்பதன் பொருள் 'தனக்கு எப்பொழுதும் அனுகூலமாகவே இருத்தல்' என்பதாகும்.

That moment was like switching on a light in a dark room. I am impressed. I am still thinking about the various dimensions of that statement. Think about it.

Cheers.

 

[sangom]

Dear Raghy,

Sangom sir said in his post #250:

(emphasis mine)

When I asked the question to a learned scholar who thinks as well as expresses himself only in Tamil he gave me this answer:

ஆத்மா ஆனந்தமயமானது. இங்கே ஆனந்தம் என்று சொல்லப்பட்டிருப்பதன் பொருள் 'தனக்கு எப்பொழுதும் அனுகூலமாகவே இருத்தல்' என்பதாகும்.

That moment was like switching on a light in a dark room. I am impressed. I am still thinking about the various dimensions of that statement. Think about it.

Cheers.

[/COLOR]

This concept of ānanda is a contribution of the vedanta philosophies. In the RV etc., this word denotes joy, happiness, etc., and ordinary mortals like me (and many of us here, I believe) can only associate ānanda with a pleasurable mental and/or physical experience — like a very good meal, first prize in a bumper lottery, a sudden and prestigious promotion in service, etc.

It looks to me, however, that just as we feel refreshed and rejuvenated after a good sleep without any disturbance, this ānanda state may also be one in which we feel completely satisfied — no more wants / desires, anxieties and so on — that for our mind and intellect which are accustomed to all these disturbances, the new state will be like the ānanda which comes to us temporarily at least, after a good meal, etc.

But personally I feel we need not strive for overcoming our desires for the sake of ānanda; it is a good thing by itself. Possibly, this is yet another instance where BG. 2-47 (karmaṇyevādhikāraste... etc.) is applicable. Do your duty or Karma but without hoping for its fruit, because the fruit of your Karma is not within your control or authority and so you should not do Karma motivated by the expectation of its fruit. If so, some may say, why do any Karma at all and leave the results to be decided by some unknown entity according to some unknown rules? For this the last part answers — mā te saṅgostvakarmaṇi i.e., do not forsake Karma because the fruit is not within your control. Hence, it is necessary to strive for avoiding undesirable desires, imho.

 

[Raghy]

Sri. Sangom, Greetings.

It is very nice to read your messages again. I and Padma enjoyed reading your messages again. I could not travel to Kerala while I was in India due enexpected spike in my blood pressure. It was quite unfortunate I could not meet you. I am planning to travel in February 2013. Kindly bear with me for not showing up. I had the translations printed seperately. Only few youngsters showed lot of interest to receive them. All of them took the translation with them. One young couple amoung them was a Chinese young man and his Chinese girl friend. She was absolutely delighted with that translation. They got married in Beijing three months ago.
Thank you for the treat you are providing through your messages.

Cheers!

 

[Raghy]

Sri. Sangom Sir, Greetings.

I refer to your message in post #250. I never had any illusions about desires. Since we do have a physical body, I never considered sense gratifications for the physical body as something that requires suppression. Often times I wondered about reducing the intensity of the desires as the life progresses.

When we listen to 'Chamakam', we ask for so much sense gratifications. When I watched elderly persons chanting 'Chamakam' I always wondered why they are asking for all those riches. Why would an elderly person ask for many good looking nymphs? Either they did not know what they were asking for or did not believe they would be getting that when they were chanting Chamakam. So, I dodn't think desires are to be suppressed.

But many (or some, in the case of a few) desires may not be realized in our lives, despite our best and even repeated attempts. This imo is caused by our Karma and the only precaution to take is not to let the unfulfilled desire/s to become craze, passion or rage - to be achieved at any cost. A time comes in life when we are able to accept with all humility our failures and inabilities.

I can't think of any 'unfulfilled desires' as such. We just lead our life; we get what we can and what we deserve. That's all. If we can live everyday without any regrets, then when the time comes, such life can't be considered as a failure in anyway. Life is just a life; there is no success or failure in life. Every life is unique. Everyone is able in their own way. I sincerely don't believe we carry any karma. For all my actions and inactions I pay the price in this same life physically, psychologically and/or emotinally. I can't think of clouding my mind with karma theory.

But for the mention of karma, your write up is a treat for me. Thank you.

Cheers!

 

[sangom]

Dear Raghy,

Re. your post #254 —

To tell you the truth, I was under the impression that perhaps you did not take kindly to my (our) non-attendance of your son's marriage and that was why I did not hear any further from you. Now a heavy weight is off my chest. Thank you.

Please let me know your itinerary for the Feb 2013 trip. I will try my best to meet you at the airport and will try to help you in whatever manner possible, within my capacity. (Shri B. Krishnamurthy, our respected senior member, visited my place in c/w a poonal, during April this year. Though his stay was very short - one and a half days only - I feel he was not unhappy at the experience.)

Sri. Sangom Sir, Greetings.

I refer to your message in post #250. I never had any illusions about desires. Since we do have a physical body, I never considered sense gratifications for the physical body as something that requires suppression. Often times I wondered about reducing the intensity of the desires as the life progresses.

In that case, I will readily say that you are either a very fortunate person or else a very "highly evolved soul" as per our usual parlance. AFA my own experience goes, I have had my quota of jealousy, greed, parsimony, acquisitiveness and many other such vices. Whether these helped me really in whatever I could acquire and/or achieve in my life is a moot question, because we cannot repeat the experiment with a different set of parameters.

Somehow, some good sense has dawned on me, very gradually though, after I crossed 60 and now I can say with a good amount of truth, that many of the shortcomings have reduced very much in intensity and spread. But, to say that I have completely overcome all these vices will be patently an untruth. I, however, strive and hope to be able to say so before closing my innings.

When we listen to 'Chamakam', we ask for so much sense gratifications. When I watched elderly persons chanting 'Chamakam' I always wondered why they are asking for all those riches. Why would an elderly person ask for many good looking nymphs? Either they did not know what they were asking for or did not believe they would be getting that when they were chanting Chamakam. So, I dodn't think desires are to be suppressed.

Though I am familiar with rudram & chamakam from a young age and have never come across anything therein that refers to 'good looking nymphs', I just now once again read the Tamil translation of Chamaka prasna by one Shri R. Muthukrishna Sastri of Tanjore (Book published by Hitabhashini, 1961). I find no indication in the whole of Chamaka Prasna. If you will kindly let me know which portion/words you are referring to, may be the position will be clear.

I do, however, agree that the whole of Chamakaprasna is a list of desires. But all those are only prayers of a general nature (i.e., for the welfare of all). My understanding is —

அக்னாவிஷ்ணூ ஸஜோஷஸேமா வர்த்தந்து வாம் கிரஃ | த்யும்னைர்வாஜேபிராகதம் |

அக்னாவிஷ்ணூ = (ஹே) அக்னி, விஷ்ணு ஆகின்ற தேவதைகளே
ஸஜோஷஸா = (நீங்கள் இருவரும்) ஒரேமாதிரி ப்ரீதியுடையவர்களாக இருங்கள்
வாம் = உங்களைப்பற்றி (கூறப்படும்)
இமா கிர: = இந்த (ஸ்தோத்திரங்களாகின்ற) வார்த்தைகள்
வர்த்தந்து = விருத்தியடையட்டும்

After this we have a series of lists of items from வாஜஸ்சமே upto புவனஸ்சாதிபதிஸ்ச and then follows யஜ்ஞேன கல்பதாம் (இந்த - இப்பொழுது அனுஷ்டிக்கப்படும் - யாகத்தால், சரியான பலனையளிக்கக்கூடியதாக ஆகட்டும்). இந்த வேண்டுகோள் தான் சமகப்ரச்னம் என்பது.

I can't think of any 'unfulfilled desires' as such. We just lead our life; we get what we can and what we deserve. That's all. If we can live everyday without any regrets, then when the time comes, such life can't be considered as a failure in anyway. Life is just a life; there is no success or failure in life. Every life is unique. Everyone is able in their own way. I sincerely don't believe we carry any karma. For all my actions and inactions I pay the price in this same life physically, psychologically and/or emotinally. I can't think of clouding my mind with karma theory.

But for the mention of karma, your write up is a treat for me. Thank you.

Cheers!

When one is satisfied with whatever he/she gets, then there is no question of 'overcoming desires'. But usually most people have some of their desires unfulfilled (say, one who wants to become a doctor and go for MBBS does not get admission despite repeated attempts and since, at least in India, one has to decide his future vocation within a certain time frame, he/she is compelled to go in some other line and then this 'doctor dream' remains an unfulfilled desire throughout life.

As regards Karma, I have come to believe that it affords the most plausible and logical explanation for the dissimilarities and vicissitudes of life which we witness in this world. If there is no Karma, then there is no explanation as to how one becomes very rich and influential whereas another goes down the drain even when born in affluent circumstances and such things happen even in countries which afford equal opportunity to everyone. We find such variation even among siblings born and brought up under the same roof. While Karma gives me (and many others also) a satisfactory explanation, I would like to know how you tend to explain such things. (See also the biblical story of the three servants.)

 

[nannilam_balasubramanian]

Dear Raghy,

Re. your post #254 —

To tell you the truth, I was under the impression that perhaps you did not take kindly to my (our) non-attendance of your son's marriage and that was why I did not hear any further from you. Now a heavy weight is off my chest. Thank you.

Please let me know your itinerary for the Feb 2013 trip. I will try my best to meet you at the airport and will try to help you in whatever manner possible, within my capacity. (Shri B. Krishnamurthy, our respected senior member, visited my place in c/w a poonal, during April this year. Though his stay was very short - one and a half days only - I feel he was not unhappy at the experience.)



In that case, I will readily say that you are either a very fortunate person or else a very "highly evolved soul" as per our usual parlance. AFA my own experience goes, I have had my quota of jealousy, greed, parsimony, acquisitiveness and many other such vices. Whether these helped me really in whatever I could acquire and/or achieve in my life is a moot question, because we cannot repeat the experiment with a different set of parameters.

Somehow, some good sense has dawned on me, very gradually though, after I crossed 60 and now I can say with a good amount of truth, that many of the shortcomings have reduced very much in intensity and spread. But, to say that I have completely overcome all these vices will be patently an untruth. I, however, strive and hope to be able to say so before closing my innings.



Though I am familiar with rudram & chamakam from a young age and have never come across anything therein that refers to 'good looking nymphs', I just now once again read the Tamil translation of Chamaka prasna by one Shri R. Muthukrishna Sastri of Tanjore (Book published by Hitabhashini, 1961). I find no indication in the whole of Chamaka Prasna. If you will kindly let me know which portion/words you are referring to, may be the position will be clear.

I do, however, agree that the whole of Chamakaprasna is a list of desires. But all those are only prayers of a general nature (i.e., for the welfare of all). My understanding is —

அக்னாவிஷ்ணூ ஸஜோஷஸேமா வர்த்தந்து வாம் கிரஃ | த்யும்னைர்வாஜேபிராகதம் |

அக்னாவிஷ்ணூ = (ஹே) அக்னி, விஷ்ணு ஆகின்ற தேவதைகளே
ஸஜோஷஸா = (நீங்கள் இருவரும்) ஒரேமாதிரி ப்ரீதியுடையவர்களாக இருங்கள்
வாம் = உங்களைப்பற்றி (கூறப்படும்)
இமா கிர: = இந்த (ஸ்தோத்திரங்களாகின்ற) வார்த்தைகள்
வர்த்தந்து = விருத்தியடையட்டும்

After this we have a series of lists of items from வாஜஸ்சமே upto புவனஸ்சாதிபதிஸ்ச and then follows யஜ்ஞேன கல்பதாம் (இந்த - இப்பொழுது அனுஷ்டிக்கப்படும் - யாகத்தால், சரியான பலனையளிக்கக்கூடியதாக ஆகட்டும்). இந்த வேண்டுகோள் தான் சமகப்ரச்னம் என்பது.



When one is satisfied with whatever he/she gets, then there is no question of 'overcoming desires'. But usually most people have some of their desires unfulfilled (say, one who wants to become a doctor and go for MBBS does not get admission despite repeated attempts and since, at least in India, one has to decide his future vocation within a certain time frame, he/she is compelled to go in some other line and then this 'doctor dream' remains an unfulfilled desire throughout life.

As regards Karma, I have come to believe that it affords the most plausible and logical explanation for the dissimilarities and vicissitudes of life which we witness in this world. If there is no Karma, then there is no explanation as to how one becomes very rich and influential whereas another goes down the drain even when born in affluent circumstances and such things happen even in countries which afford equal opportunity to everyone. We find such variation even among siblings born and brought up under the same roof. While Karma gives me (and many others also) a satisfactory explanation, I would like to know how you tend to explain such things. (See also the biblical story of the three servants.)

Lokah Samastha Sukino Bhavanthu

 

[Raghy]

Dear Sri. Sangom, Greetings.

I and Padma have blocked holidays in February 2013 subject to approval. ( that's when most Indians block their holidays. Just after Christmas & new year period).

Though I am familiar with rudram & chamakam from a young age and have never come across anything therein that refers to 'good looking nymphs',

Sorry. I have not learned Sanskrit. I have mixed up with some other 'pala shrudhi'. But I knew Chamakam is requesting for desires to fulfiled, lots and lots of them.

In that case, I will readily say that you are either a very fortunate person or else a very "highly evolved soul" as per our usual parlance. AFA my own experience goes, I have had my quota of jealousy, greed, parsimony, acquisitiveness and many other such vices. Whether these helped me really in whatever I could acquire and/or achieve in my life is a moot question, because we cannot repeat the experiment with a different set of parameters.

No, I never had any ill feelings as of now in the case of desires. My life policies were "உடம்பெல்லாம் எண்ணெய் தடவிண்டு மாவில் புரண்டாலும், ஒட்டணும் என்கிற அளவு மட்டுமே ஒட்டும். வரணும்கிறது தேடிண்டு வரும். சில சமயம் அதிர்ஷ்டம் தபாலில் வரும்போது தரித்திரம் தந்தியில் வரும்." ( Even if you apply oil to the whole body and roll in flour, only the possible flour would stick to the body.. whatever you are deserved to get, would come looking for you even if you don't seek.. sometimes good fortune may be coming to by mail but misfortune would be arriving in a relegram!). These were my policies since I was 17 years old. I always had fun as if there is no tomorrow. Until my wife undestood the dynamics of 'life' in general, she hated my policies and even thought I should be wishing for more. But now she understands the power of satisfaction. It doesn't mean I don't desire for anything new; in truth, I always do. Often times we act upon that and make it true too. The latest on the plate is, building a house with முற்றம் and தாழ்வாரம் in Australia! Who knows, it may happen too. But if it didn't, that would not be considered as 'unfulfilled'. I never had any fixation for any particular profession. For me, I just liked to have a 'debt free, peaceful life'. I was willing to take up whatever came along. I have experience working as designer ... and in one instance as a labourer. No matter what I did never bothered me; I just came hame with my earnings and enjoyed the time with the family.

After reading my reply to you last night my wife discussed that message with me. 'How can you not have any unfulfilled desire?' she asked. I asked her to list her unfulfilled desires worth mentioning. She thought for few seconds and had nothing to mention! In reality, none of us may have 'unfulfilled desires'. We imagine we do; but not really. All the members believe in karma and destiny ( I don't), then how can they even think of 'unfulfilled desires'? What ever they get is their destiny; there ends the chapter.

As regards Karma, I have come to believe that it affords the most plausible and logical explanation for the dissimilarities and vicissitudes of life which we witness in this world. If there is no Karma, then there is no explanation as to how one becomes very rich and influential whereas another goes down the drain even when born in affluent circumstances and such things happen even in countries which afford equal opportunity to everyone. We find such variation even among siblings born and brought up under the same roof. While Karma gives me (and many others also) a satisfactory explanation, I would like to know how you tend to explain such things.

Karma theory may be upheld only if one believes in 'creation theory'. I don't believe in creation theory either. To be born rich or as poor is just by chance. Besides someone born rich may end up dirt poor too. It is our own mind set and our own mind power. I know you are well aware of this song. So, what is poor/rich/healthy/unhealthy/wise/illiterate/king/beggar in life? At the end, everybody is just the same. What is life? that is the hand dealt to me when I was born. Does it matter whether I was dealt all jacks or all 'coolis'? I am here to play '28 game', I will play it to the best of my ability. Most important thing is, I can't change my cards; have to play the game with what I got.

We somehow think some persons got a better life than the other. That's why we seek to find the answer for the differences and fall in the trap of 'karma theory, reincarnations. boons and punishments' etc. We can't bring ourselves to think we all have the same exact life. We do. But the quality of life seems to change due to our mental make-up. I had to think of my own life ( that's all I know very well). I had no money when I was young. Often times I used to be the scapegoat for others to vent out their anger and get beaten up. It was always up to me to amuse myself. I had a glorious time though. Instead of crying at a corner, I chose to amuse myself, chose to enjoy myself. I feasted myself with sugarcane, fresh pea nut, mangoes .. list goes on. If someone said to me it was my bad karma I was getting beaten up for no fault of mine, I would have laughed ( even now I do); so, what about the outdoor life I had that made the city kids burn with envy when ever they visted my village? Life is just a simple life. We all are heading to the same destiny; a small pot of ash at the end.

How do I explain the differences? Honestly, I don't see any difference. We all go through various methods of sense gratifications. That's what we call 'life style'. Rich & poor differentiations come out of that. It's all in our mind. If we can control our mind, we can control everything. I could be seen indulging in sense gratification but in reality, I would be performing a very controlled action. Karma? I don't think so. I may not have talked everything in my mind about karma yet.

Cheers!

 

[Amirtha]

Namaskarms to Shri Sangom.


I am Amirtha, I recently joined the forum. However, I used to be guest reader and read lot of your postings and I understand you have lot of knowledge. I learned lot from your postings. Thank you.
I got really interested in this desire and karma stuff. So I decided to participate and joined the forum.


Iam Quoting Shri Raghy’s writings “ Often times I used to be the scapegoat for others to vent out their anger and get beaten up”.

Reason for me to Quote Shri Raghy’s quoting is, I also came across people like Shri Raghy, saying about their life experience with me.


This is my question.


When the wars break out and when the female become scapegoat, who is to blame? I am talking about female getting raped and end up in having the child and bringing up the child in the society. That sisu get the name from the society “bastard”. Usually happens to male child. I used to think, just because the child do not know his biological father’s name, the society call him bastard and humiliate the child and the mother. So is it the child’s and also that woman’s poorva janma papam , that child and the mother get humiliated and get blamed for the unthinkable action did by some idiot needed a release ? How can we justify this to karma theory? Action never gets questioned. Only the reaction gets scrutinised. I would appreciate your reply. However, considering your health status, please take your time. Please take care.

Kind Regards

 

[sangom]

Namaskarms to Shri Sangom.


I am Amirtha, I recently joined the forum. However, I used to be guest reader and read lot of your postings and I understand you have lot of knowledge. I learned lot from your postings. Thank you.
I got really interested in this desire and karma stuff. So I decided to participate and joined the forum.


Iam Quoting Shri Raghy’s writings “ Often times I used to be the scapegoat for others to vent out their anger and get beaten up”.

Reason for me to Quote Shri Raghy’s quoting is, I also came across people like Shri Raghy, saying about their life experience with me.


This is my question.


When the wars break out and when the female become scapegoat, who is to blame? I am talking about female getting raped and end up in having the child and bringing up the child in the society. That sisu get the name from the society “bastard”. Usually happens to male child. I used to think, just because the child do not know his biological father’s name, the society call him bastard and humiliate the child and the mother. So is it the child’s and also that woman’s poorva janma papam , that child and the mother get humiliated and get blamed for the unthinkable action did by some idiot needed a release ? How can we justify this to karma theory? Action never gets questioned. Only the reaction gets scrutinised. I would appreciate your reply. However, considering your health status, please take your time. Please take care.

Kind Regards

Smt. Amirtaji,

Please confirm whether I am addressing you (smt.) correctly. I apologize in advance if there is a mistake.

Shri Raghy's experience is not unique, I think, at least for the older generations born and brought up in India. But the fact that Shri Raghy has been able to take all those treatments lightly and find happiness and satisfaction in whatever he got in life, is a unique aspect and I believe this also is shaped by his Karma.

Coming to war-ravaged widows and their "ba**ard" children, these are yet again the results of the past Karmas of all those affected persons. When, in our own world, we cannot be sure whether our man-made "Law" will really protect and free, a falsely accused person, what judgment can we make of the Law of Karma which operates completely unknown to us. That was why, perhaps, even Krishna had to say "karmaṇi eva adhikāraḥ te, mā phaleṣu kadācana |" (कर्मणि एव अधिकारः ते, मा फलेषु कदाचन ।). kadācana means 'never at any time'. So, we human beings have to meekly accept what befalls each one of us.

I presume that you would like to have a 'just' Law of Karma which will satisfy our scrutiny and pass the test of being fair and equitable from the human standpoint. Because this Law of Karma operates in ways which are as yet unknown to Man (and, may be, it will ever be so, if we take Krishna's definite words kadācana as divine gospel), we can either meekly accept whatever befalls us or else, we are free to throw out the Law of Karma through the window; either way "que sera sera".

For example, we may not find any justification - in our view - for phenomena like the Nazi pogrom of millions of Jews and similar group-hatreds down the ages of history; we may not be satisfied that Hiroshima-Nagasaki could have been a well-planned retribution for only those who deserved such a treatment at the hands of Fate. But as long as we humans are powerless to understand the ways of Karma, we can either meekly submit to it or disown such a Law of Karma.

 

[Raghy]

Dear Sri. Sangom, Greetings.

I refer to your message in post #253.

But personally I feel we need not strive for overcoming our desires for the sake of ānanda;

Why? What does overcoming desire have with ananda? In my opion, desire and ananda are inter-connected. In Tamizh we say சிற்றின்பம் and பேரின்பம், when we refer to pleasures. Of which, பேரின்பம் is considered anandam. சிற்றின்பம் is sense gratifications. In my opinion, without getting content with sense gratifications, one may not get to the stage of anandam. Anandam state is temporary, but can occur very frequently. In my opinion, one need not overcome desires and sense gratifications to experience anandam; both can happen simultaneously. Only thing is, one should not be obsessed with that. For example, if one desire seems to be out of reach, just move on... desires are not wrong as such. But once it is known such desire is nothing but a mirage, one should move on. To think mirage is a source of water is not a huge mistake as such.

So, in my opinion, one doesn't have to overcome desires to experience ananda.

Cheers!

 

[Raghy]

Dear Sri. Sangom, Greetings.

I refer to your message in post #261.

But the fact that Shri Raghy has been able to take all those treatments lightly and find happiness and satisfaction in whatever he got in life, is a unique aspect and I believe this also is shaped by his Karma.

No sir. I never was satisfied with what I got. I did not envy anyone at anytime. But I always wanted more. I am 55 now. Still I want more. In my life I keep moving. I don't consider anything wrong or right. In my opinion, everything is an action that attracts reactions. Wrong and rights are subjective, suits the context and the situations. நான் மகான் இல்லை. During my teen years my voice didn't even break due to my inferiority complex. When any of the usual suspects were talking to me, automatically my arms would raise and lower frequently to protect my face; I could be beaten any second. I was always on the defensive. My standard reply was " I didn't do it!" in a pleading voice. Thankfully I half skipped home and half left to study.. it is still grey.. anyway, I broke my voice with effort, purposefully I unleashed the animal in me to handle everything. Now I am used to that animal. As of today I am not satisfied with what I got. In my opinion, if I am capable of getting more and making more, why not? I don't want to break the rules, but bend them as much as possible. In reality, I am a mixture of porukki and animal with a little bit of human spriinkled on top.

Yes. It is shaped by my karma. But I don't believe in 'poorva janma karma'. Any karma is from this janma only. The karma I went through during my youth and subsequent years contributed to psychological make-up. Such psychological make up helped to make my mind-set. But all this thing will come to a small urn or ash at the end. That is where my karma would end too.

Cheers!

 

[C RAVI]

Dear Sri. Sangom, Greetings.

Yes. It is shaped by my karma. But I don't believe in 'poorva janma karma'. Any karma is from this janma only. The karma I went through during my youth and subsequent years contributed to psychological make-up. Such psychological make up helped to make my mind-set. But all this thing will come to a small urn or ash at the end. That is where my karma would end too.

Cheers!

Shri Raghy,


This is what Islam says.


Once I asked one of my Muslim colleagues, couple of years before that, what do you feel about a very good and innocent person being cheated, subjected to suffereings etc when Allah is there to shower his mercy upon every one equally? Why there is such a contradiction in his care towards humans?

He said, it is just that Allah wants to test us and see if we could accept whatever Allah wants us to bear and to see how we react and live our life. Our deeds would get us back what we deserve and at the end of the day the person dies with his/her loads of credentials (positive and negative). Upon judgement day, the person would be questioned and would be rewarded with what he truly deserves.

There is nothing called previous birth and there is nothing called re-birth, that can exist for any one

 

[sangom]

Dear Sri. Sangom, Greetings.

I refer to your message in post #261.



No sir. I never was satisfied with what I got. I did not envy anyone at anytime. But I always wanted more. I am 55 now. Still I want more. In my life I keep moving. I don't consider anything wrong or right. In my opinion, everything is an action that attracts reactions. Wrong and rights are subjective, suits the context and the situations. நான் மகான் இல்லை. During my teen years my voice didn't even break due to my inferiority complex. When any of the usual suspects were talking to me, automatically my arms would raise and lower frequently to protect my face; I could be beaten any second. I was always on the defensive. My standard reply was " I didn't do it!" in a pleading voice. Thankfully I half skipped home and half left to study.. it is still grey.. anyway, I broke my voice with effort, purposefully I unleashed the animal in me to handle everything. Now I am used to that animal. As of today I am not satisfied with what I got. In my opinion, if I am capable of getting more and making more, why not? I don't want to break the rules, but bend them as much as possible. In reality, I am a mixture of porukki and animal with a little bit of human spriinkled on top.

Yes. It is shaped by my karma. But I don't believe in 'poorva janma karma'. Any karma is from this janma only. The karma I went through during my youth and subsequent years contributed to psychological make-up. Such psychological make up helped to make my mind-set. But all this thing will come to a small urn or ash at the end. That is where my karma would end too.

Cheers!

Dear Shri Raghy,

From your many posts in this thread I see that you have already attained a stage which is somewhat difficult for many others to achieve. Since our knowledge is confined to this life-time and we are completely ignorant about our past (i.e., before birth) and future (life after death) we are free to imagine, propose or even propound any theory/philosophy about these. Karma, as you will agree, enters the stage in such circumstances. We are free to disown it or accept it with whatever details we want.

In that respect, your stand that 'there is no poorva janma karma' is as good as mine. Both are incapable of being proved or disproved/unproved. But personally, I will continue to subscribe to "poorva janma karma" in order to provide some kind of justification for the inequalities at birth of people, and the widely different character and courses of life even among siblings born to the same couple and brought up under the same roof.

Since you state that you have never bothered about whatever you did not get, I wonder what made you start this thread and ask the following questions:—

"How can we effectively overcome our desires? Does the method of cotrolling ourselves and denying such pleasures help us overcome such desires? Does focusing our mind on a different subject, a subject we think is more valuable than the desire in question help us overcome the desires? Does following discourses by various swamijis and very learned persons help us overcome such desires? I am requesting for a detailed discussion, please."

 

[Amirtha]

Smt. Amirtaji,

"Please confirm whether I am addressing you (smt.) correctly"

Shri Sangom

Yes you are addressing me correctly (smt). Please call me Amirtha without Ji please.

I read your reply to other members. I got your message and respect the message. I understand currently societal norm (especially in the forum), want to believe in “poorva janma karma”. I agree with whatever makes someone get peace upon and move on in their life. I think we are bombarded with this kind of thinking even before we born (especially Hindu's). Sometime it is hard to change our mind set. However, in my opinion, change is possible through rigorous thinking, observation and studying our environement, especially we are more connected through via technology of internet. I like to move and evolve in my own way and end in pot as Shri Raghy says. Thank you for replies. I can feel and appreciate it is coming from your experience. Everyone experience in life is different, however, we share pretty much same feelings/emotions and should be able to relate to one another.


I like to question the myth. I am not able to accept all the Geetha teachings. ( I am taking Krishna's advice Ref: geetha chapter 2, sloga 46.)

So my next question is

I beleive in karma. Our actions and reactions. However, I dont beleive in "poorva janma karma". As per Geetha, the "Atma" doesnt own anything. So if we are going to born again, how can it carry its deed/reaction to its next birth?.


I Hope you are getting better.

Kind Regards

 

[sangom]

Smt. Amirtaji,

"Please confirm whether I am addressing you (smt.) correctly"

Shri Sangom

Yes you are addressing me correctly (smt). Please call me Amirtha without Ji please.

I read your reply to other members. I got your message and respect the message. I understand currently societal norm (especially in the forum), want to believe in “poorva janma karma”. I agree with whatever makes someone get peace upon and move on in their life. I think we are bombarded with this kind of thinking even before we born (especially Hindu's). Sometime it is hard to change our mind set. However, in my opinion, change is possible through rigorous thinking, observation and studying our environement, especially we are more connected through via technology of internet. I like to move and evolve in my own way and end in pot as Shri Raghy says. Thank you for replies. I can feel and appreciate it is coming from your experience. Everyone experience in life is different, however, we share pretty much same feelings/emotions and should be able to relate to one another.


I like to question the myth. I am not able to accept all the Geetha teachings. ( I am taking Krishna's advice Ref: geetha chapter 2, sloga 46.)

So my next question is

I beleive in karma. Our actions and reactions. However, I dont beleive in "poorva janma karma". As per Geetha, the "Atma" doesnt own anything. So if we are going to born again, how can it carry its deed/reaction to its next birth?.


I Hope you are getting better.

Kind Regards

Smt. Amirtha,

I am sure you are aware that Gita 2-46 is not a clearly constructed sloka; it is capable of being interpreted in more or less opposite senses, depending upon how the word "sarvataḥ" is taken. If you take the more commonly understood meaning of सर्वतः as "from everywhere" instead of "everywhere", this sloka will mean that a real brāhmaṇa will find in the vedas all the knowledge, like a pond in which waters from everywhere flow in. Also, BG 17-11 for example, reiterates that even an enlightened person should continue to perform all the karmas prescribed (by the karma kANDa).

Now, to your main point:

"I beleive in karma. Our actions and reactions. However, I dont beleive in "poorva janma karma". As per Geetha, the "Atma" doesnt own anything. So if we are going to born again, how can it carry its deed/reaction to its next birth?."


We can believe either in rebirth or that there is no rebirth at all. If we vote for rebirth, we will be compelled to accept transmigration, i.e., reincarnation or the passing of a soul into another body after death. If, as you say, we propose that the Atma does not "carry" anything from one birth to another, then we will be compelled to explain satisfactorily, the enormous increase in the world human population and from where the new "Atmas" came into being and why they were forced to take birth as humans.

The notion of rebirth gets support from conscious past-birth memories of children which are proved true to the minute details, birthmarks corresponding to the fatal wounds of the last life, talking fluently in the language of the past life during hypnotic regression, child prodigies like Wolfgang Mozart, etc. If nothing passes from one birth to the next, of the same Atma, it will be very difficult for science alone to satisfactorily explain these and other phenomena,imho. Ideas such as 'Atma' does not own anything, etc., have become popular mainly because the vedantic philosophies revolve around something called "Atma" (jeevatma) which travels through an infinite chain of births and these philosophies hold that this chain of existences in this world, with all the surrounding miseries, troubles, pains,etc., (called 'samsaara') can end only when the Atma attains liberation; this liberation
differs from one school (of vedanta) to another. If Atma just passes on from one body (birth) to another without any taint, I feel it will be difficult to explain people who are generally good getting into serious troubles and tragedies, while known rogues and rascals lead a royal life.

Despite my doubts as above, if you are satisfied with your beliefs it is OK. After all, we are just blindly groping in the dark, so to say, in such matters.

 

[Raghy]

Dear Sri. Sangom, Greetings.

I have a feeling you may have overlooked my message in post #258.

Since our knowledge is confined to this life-time and we are completely ignorant about our past (i.e., before birth) and future (life after death) we are free to imagine, propose or even propound any theory/philosophy about these. Karma, as you will agree, enters the stage in such circumstances. We are free to disown it or accept it with whatever details we want.

In that respect, your stand that 'there is no poorva janma karma' is as good as mine. Both are incapable of being proved or disproved/unproved.

I don't see any reason for 'poorva janma karma'. That idea itself is an illusion, developed out of our ignorance. When we see the standard and quality of life of various persons, we somehow think one life is beter than the other. But in reality, they are not.

Take for example, life of a person living in the middle of Sahara desert. The whole family just depends upon the camel and they just keep moving. No land to cultivate; elking a life out of the merciless desert. Are they happy? Yes, they are. Just watch the colours in their selection! It indicates the happiness in their heart. What about a person elking out a communal living in the Kalahary deserrt? They are some of the happiest bunch of persons on earth. What is the difference between the life of a king and that of a beggar? Absolutely nothing. Both are satisfied when they ate bellyful; when they had sensual gratifications; and the laughter is the same when they enjoy a joke? Does a beggar laugh? Of course a beggar laugh as much as anyone. So, why should we see one's life any better than other's life?

Envy. Envy makes the difference. We somehow think when we accumalated more and more luxuries, we are beginning to believe we are going to be happy. Does that mean I am not going to enjoy any luxury; no! I am going to earn to satisfy my desires and enjoy from my earnings. But I am not going to be envious of anyone. We have the envy and we have the fear. Do you know how to swim? In this forum there would be so many members who would say " I don't know how to swim!" Is it true? No! We all know how to swim; but some of us have not overcome the fear of water. Fear and envy completely change the course of our lives. Fear drove to commit sucide at the age of 15 years. I had the intention, I had the plan, I was executing the plan but was interrupted by a 17 year old kid ( Nanjunda Rao; from a stray Marathi family lived in our village) who seriously suspected I was going to die and came running after me in the middle of the night ( I left home at 1130 at night). Fear. If we overcome fear, our life becomes very different.

Since I view all the lives as just equal, I do not think one enjoys life more than the other or one sufferes more than the other. That is why I don't buy into the 'poorva janma karma' concept.

"How can we effectively overcome our desires? Does the method of cotrolling ourselves and denying such pleasures help us overcome such desires? Does focusing our mind on a different subject, a subject we think is more valuable than the desire in question help us overcome the desires? Does following discourses by various swamijis and very learned persons help us overcome such desires? I am requesting for a detailed discussion, please."

It is true. I am not bothered if I don't get something. I don't give up though. I keep at it without getting obsessed. Desires are mind games; fulfilling desires are also mind games. In this forum I was writing a lot of getting sense gratifications, visiting soft and hard core porn sites, my drinking habits etc. Members with well intentions kept suggesting me I should be thinking about controlling my desires. I thought about those suggestions. Honestly, I could not see the reason why I should reduce my desires. Just to put to discussion I asked those questions in the quote. For example, I am 55 years old now. But i don't act anything like that. Not for the South Indian standard anyway. My simple motto in life is, if pleasure is available, let's just enjoy it. Just for example, recently our son moved out with his newly married wife; Padma started wondering how to cope with the empty house.... I suggested one more honeymoon!

In my opinion, we don't have to feel guilty at all while enjoying sense gratifications. Padma asked me to justify that. It is just simple. Most people believe in Atma. They think Atma is independent of the physical body. They also think Atma should progress in the spiritual path ( these are the things she believes; so I mentioned them here). My argument was, why should one starve the physical body for the Atma to progress spiritually? Just feed the physical body with its sense gratifications while Atma is not attached to any of that. She asked me how could that be possible; My opinion is, if we are not obsessed with the sense gratifications, if we do not let envy take over, we can very easily stay un-attached.

I think I am going to stop here. I may be ranting on.

Cheers!

 

[Raghy]

Greetings.

As expected the wise veterans entertained the forum with hate laced messages. Most of the hatread is usually caused by envy and fear as mentioned in the previous message in this thread. Now the veterans are writing hate messages against both Raghy and sowbagyavathy Amirtha. Such spiteful messages too. It is nice to know there are people who enjoy others misery. They plan and compose even poems to hurt others. So, it is not just spantaneous reactions, but well meditated efforts to bring such hatred in their messages. Also I see the self congradualtions between the wise and pious persons after each messages of hatred. They must be feeling very proud of their achievement.

The forum is witnessing these exchanges silently.

Here one great veteran proudly says in post # 4025 in "Think It Over" thread... ( think it over)

Since you felt that low self esteem was the cause for you kicking the dog so just accept the fact that low self esteem is the cause for Renuka to "target" Amirtha.

So what is the problem now?

Nothing right?

. She basically admits and feels proud of targetting Amirtha since she is suffering from "low self- esteem".

And how she describes herself? Like this in post #4022 in "Think it over" thread..

I am a Libran and I know diplomacy better than anyone else.

So, this veteran knows diplomacy better than anyone else and targets a vulnerable newbie since she was feeling "low self-esteem" for the past more than two weeks!

But this veteran did not target any other newbie but just one newbie by the name "Amirtha". So, why Amirtha was singled out?

I went back and checked every post when this targetting started. It started when Sowbagyavathy Amirtha started talking to me in the desire thread. I did not make much of conversation in the past two weeks. I did not even welcome this Amirtha until after I replied couple of posts from her. Then this wise and the great Libran, the best diplomatic person started chasing this newbie as if there is no tomorrow.

Envy and fear. Fear causes depression. depression causes low self-esteem. Envy causes rage; also Causes anger. I can see all these qualities spread all across this event. It looks like a demonstration lesson for someone to learn how someone goes spiralling down the six undesirable qualities.

All these qualities cause paranoia. And we have one more veteran with sadistic qualities. So sadistic, this veteran composes poems to make fun of a person.

This forum is watching all this, very silently.

Cheers!

 

[renuka]

Greetings.

As expected the wise veterans entertained the forum with hate laced messages. Most of the hatread is usually caused by envy and fear as mentioned in the previous message in this thread. Now the veterans are writing hate messages against both Raghy and sowbagyavathy Amirtha. Such spiteful messages too. It is nice to know there are people who enjoy others misery. They plan and compose even poems to hurt others. So, it is not just spantaneous reactions, but well meditated efforts to bring such hatred in their messages. Also I see the self congradualtions between the wise and pious persons after each messages of hatred. They must be feeling very proud of their achievement.

The forum is witnessing these exchanges silently.

Here one great veteran proudly says in post # 4025 in "Think It Over" thread... ( think it over) . She basically admits and feels proud of targetting Amirtha since she is suffering from "low self- esteem".

And how she describes herself? Like this in post #4022 in "Think it over" thread..

So, this veteran knows diplomacy better than anyone else and targets a vulnerable newbie since she was feeling "low self-esteem" for the past more than two weeks!

But this veteran did not target any other newbie but just one newbie by the name "Amirtha". So, why Amirtha was singled out?

I went back and checked every post when this targetting started. It started when Sowbagyavathy Amirtha started talking to me in the desire thread. I did not make much of conversation in the past two weeks. I did not even welcome this Amirtha until after I replied couple of posts from her. Then this wise and the great Libran, the best diplomatic person started chasing this newbie as if there is no tomorrow.

Envy and fear. Fear causes depression. depression causes low self-esteem. Envy causes rage; also Causes anger. I can see all these qualities spread all across this event. It looks like a demonstration lesson for someone to learn how someone goes spiralling down the six undesirable qualities.

All these qualities cause paranoia. And we have one more veteran with sadistic qualities. So sadistic, this veteran composes poems to make fun of a person.

This forum is watching all this, very silently.

Cheers!

Dear Raghy,

You are entitled to say whatever you want.


Thank you very much for your post.

Make yourself happy.
What you write about me affects me the least.

Other members are also welcome to give their comments.



Regards
Renu

 

[renuka]

In Think it Over Thread I had clearly stated that my post would be the last one on that topic but I still see it being dragged here.

I wont be commenting anymore on this topic anymore so anyone is free to write anything they wish about me cos I give a damn to who thinks what.

 

[mkrishna100]

peace peace peace

 

[renuka]

peace peace peace

Thank You very much sir...from my part I wont be posting anything on this topic anymore.
I can assure you I will let peace prevail.

 

[biswa]

Wise people of the forum

Please be calm. The Shara Ripu are all inside us and willing to rear their heads at any time. Please do not give in to them. We can only control our own behaviour, not those of others. Hence take a deep breath and continue your positive contribution.

 

[suraju06]

Dear friend Raghy,

In my opinion, we don't have to feel guilty at all while enjoying sense gratifications. Padma asked me to justify that. It is just simple. Most people believe in Atma. They think Atma is independent of the physical body. They also think Atma should progress in the spiritual path ( these are the things she believes; so I mentioned them here). My argument was, why should one starve the physical body for the Atma to progress spiritually? Just feed the physical body with its sense gratifications while Atma is not attached to any of that. She asked me how could that be possible; My opinion is, if we are not obsessed with the sense gratifications, if we do not let envy take over, we can very easily stay un-attached.

There is no way to clearly express some of the experiences of human beings in this world because they are deeply personal and language is not a perfect medium. Can you be sure as to when you stop being obsessed with sense gratification? If you think about it you will agree that it is difficult to tell. Sense gratification is preceded by a craving, a longing, an urge or a single minded non-stop, no turning back, run towards a goal. The trigger can be anything. Abstination, denial, sight, excitation of olfactory nerves, food, intoxication, endocrine glands getting very busy etc., etc.,- can be any. Can you have total control over these impulses? No. As long as we live in this world it is not possible. We can at best manage these impulses and we have to necessarily do that because we live in a society. While you indulge and the indulgence is spontaneous you will certainly be knowing it. When the craving or the urge completely occupies and dominates your mind to the exclusion of everything else it becomes dangerous. So for every thing there should be a lakshman rekha which generally emerges from the controling centre of your mind. To allow your system to repeatedly and incessantly make demands for sense gratification and for your saner mind to give in to that demand can be interpreted as a weakness of your mind. And in such a situation external support is indicated and called for. There is no harm in enjoying the good things in this life. There is a lot of harm if indulgence becomes the sole occupation of life. Mind can play a number of tricks to hide its abject failure in its control function. It can conjure up arguments to deny the existence of atma, to forcefully offer an alternative of atma-body unity and to find in sense gratification a remedy to raw envy and many other emotions. It can even convince you that by succumbing to needless and endless sense gratification you stay completely unattached (this is the crowning piece of the deception). Be careful about what your extraordinary mind is upto.

Cheers.

 

[C RAVI]

......This forum is watching all this, very silently.

Cheers!

Hair splitting fight, accusations, innuendos, keeping silence etc..etc is not new and would never end, as long as humans are involved, no matter humans here in cyber world don't see each other eye to eye.

Smart, sensible, composed, responsible, loving and caring members who all are not egoistic, would not create scene and keep prolonging the issue even if they found themselves being insulted or bullied at some point.

Whether the message is presented as a normal draft or in poems or by images, all mean the same and carries the same sense. Only the parties involved should have the courage, smartness and the right way to retaliate and keep going.

And off course, the retaliations need not be filthy, shameful and stinking.


It is not good to desire for a special privilege being a veteran or newbie, a male or a female and be unmindful of what we say and how we act with others.