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How did vali, the vanara king and manifestation of indra, was a terror to demon ravan

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Dear HH,

Let me talk in terms of gunas only. Identifying gunas is important because it is necessary to know who is fit to do a particular job. But in the present world it would be called discrimination. But let us ignore the fact that discrimination is indeed prevalent in spite of this lip service to equality.

Let us assume that these inherent gunas are used to assess the suitability of the person to a job. The important point is that let us not label one's abilities permanently. Even though a person may be seen unfit for a job at a particular time he should be able to qualify for it if there is a perceptible change in his suitability for the job. Remember heredity is only one factor determining one's potential accomplishments.

My point therefore is we should seriously reconsider in reinstating varna like system for selection to jobs. For example, a sattvic guna is a much better fit for advisory roles than a rajassic one. See what the western countries are doing. At the drop of a hat they feel the urge to interfere, not in a peaceful way in the affairs of other nations. I think they feel a rush of blood to display their military might every now and then. That is the problem. Valour seems to score over discretion.

The importance of guna based system cannot be overemphasized. It is the way to utilize fully the capabilities of the members of the society and in a way that is not detrimental to it.
Dear Sravna,

How is it possible to neatly compartmentalise the whole world into occupations based on the 3 guna classification? Please let me know.

If the keepers of dharmashastras (brahmins) correct in their social classification, how come today former untouchables and unseeables like nadars are working as surgeons in overseas countries, etc.

What am saying is, if 'untouchables' were classified that way, because of tamasa guna (that too by birth), how come they show/showed qualities of ability, intelligence, enterprise, under a non-smrithi rule??

How come illayaraja is capable of composing music (musical intelligence) ? How come Shiv nadar is capable of managing a company (inter-personal and intra-personal intelligence) ? How come Thiruvalluvar wrote kurals (linguistic intelligence) ?

What the dharmashastras achieved is no different from Nazi Eugenics of an indian kind, that is, social varna policies based on birth, achieved through violence. All guna talk are just excuses to justify and claim sattva guna for themselves, despite justifying and upholding smrithis.

Now if some brahmins think ONLY they are bestowed with sattva guna, integrity, intelligence, enterprise, diligence, etc so be it. Only thing is, today increasingly more people are capable of seeing thru such bogus claims...

Therefore your claims of a guna based system is not going to find resonance amongst anyone (except perhaps some brahmins) since people are aware that it was used like an 'excuse-based system' to justify varnas by proponents of smrithis....

Regards.
 
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sravna

Well-known member
i get really depressed and feel there is only bleak outlook for our religion, when even erudite folks like sravana, equates good gunas with brahmins.

i do not know if he understands, how patronizing and insulting the statement that 'even among venerable brahmarishis there are non brahmins'. it is so deeply engrained this feeling, that as if being a brahmarishi by default is a domain of the brahmin, and for a NB it is an exception.

i am not writing this to sravana, but am more commenting on such deeply held feelings. even now in the 21st century when such strains of thought be conveniently forgotten or discarded. i would see more folks just dropping out of our practices than adhere to a philosophy which is based on brahminical hegemony, by default or otherwise.

very depressing.

Dear Folks,

I apologize if it sounds patronising. I was only mentioning the statement in the context of our history. It definitely do not reflect my attitude towards people other than brahmins. It is a common notion that brahmins placed themselves a notch over the others and dominated them as they were the creators of dharmashastras. I only tried to point out that it is not totally true as others have also been held in very high status because they chose to pursue certain qualities. I agree that my statement is open to misinterpretation. I am sorry if I gave a wrong impression. BTW, many of my best friends are not brahmins or even hindus.
 

sravna

Well-known member
Dear Sravna,

How is it possible to neatly compartmentalise the whole world into occupations based on the 3 guna classification? Please let me know.

If the keepers of dharmashastras (brahmins) correct in their social classification, how come today former untouchables and unseeables like nadars are working as surgeons in overseas countries, etc.

What am saying is, if 'untouchables' were classified that way, because of tamasa guna (that too by birth), how come they show/showed qualities of ability, intelligence, enterprise, under a non-smrithi rule??

How come illayaraja is capable of composing music (musical intelligence) ? How come Shiv nadar is capable of managing a company (inter-personal and intra-personal intelligence) ? How come Thiruvalluvar wrote kurals (linguistic intelligence) ?

What the dharmashastras achieved is no different from Nazi Eugenics of an indian kind, that is, social varna policies based on birth, achieved through violence. All guna talk are just excuses to justify and claim sattva guna for themselves, despite justifying and upholding smrithis.

Now if some brahmins think ONLY they are bestowed with sattva guna, integrity, intelligence, enterprise, diligence, etc so be it. Only thing is, today increasingly more people are capable of seeing thru such bogus claims...

Therefore your claims of a guna based system is not going to find resonance amongst anyone (except perhaps some brahmins) since people are aware that it was used like an 'excuse-based system' to justify varnas by proponents of smrithis....

Regards.

Dear HH,

I never mentioned the word brahmin and definitely not brahmin by birth. People such as Illayaraja, Tiruvalluvar and the folks who work overseas in high positions as you point out are highly gifted. If you read my post again, you would understand that it means these people would indeed get the recognition they deserve because birth is not a factor at all. I also did not say that a person once identified for a quality should be permanently branded with that quality. So it is totally fair play.

I was only suggesting a broad classification that would fit people to the right job. Overall, I overwhelmingly try to emphasize this: People with good and righteous character whoever it may be should be at the helm of affairs
 
I

itsmesiva

Guest
Periyaaraa vazharadhu kooda OK, Paramachariyaara Vanangaradhu kooda OK... aanaa thevainaa anga, thevai illanaa inganu panra religious dishonesty amazes me...

One a separate note, leave alone remembering, how many of us realize the greatness of the likes of Sandeep Unnikrishnan, Sadanand Dhate, Thukaram Omble ?
 
i get really depressed and feel there is only bleak outlook for our religion, when even erudite folks like sravana, equates good gunas with brahmins.

i do not know if he understands, how patronizing and insulting the statement that 'even among venerable brahmarishis there are non brahmins'. it is so deeply engrained this feeling, that as if being a brahmarishi by default is a domain of the brahmin, and for a NB it is an exception.

i am not writing this to sravana, but am more commenting on such deeply held feelings. even now in the 21st century when such strains of thought be conveniently forgotten or discarded. i would see more folks just dropping out of our practices than adhere to a philosophy which is based on brahminical hegemony, by default or otherwise.

very depressing.

Dear Kunjuppu,

Why do you feel sad? Shri Sravna's hypothesis has ensured that your genes plus certain way of life will ensure that all your descendants will be of very good qualities and high intelligence. hallelujah!
 
Dear HH,

I never mentioned the word brahmin and definitely not brahmin by birth. People such as Illayaraja, Tiruvalluvar and the folks who work overseas in high positions as you point out are highly gifted. If you read my post again, you would understand that it means these people would indeed get the recognition they deserve because birth is not a factor at all. I also did not say that a person once identified for a quality should be permanently branded with that quality. So it is totally fair play.

I was only suggesting a broad classification that would fit people to the right job. Overall, I overwhelmingly try to emphasize this: People with good and righteous character whoever it may be should be at the helm of affairs

"I would say brahmins are unique in this world for their kind of knowledge and the qualities they possess and this naturally is not acceptable to others who lack such qualities. So to smear them you need a pretext. And caste system turns out to be a convenient pretext."— Shri Sravna here.
 

kunjuppu

Active member
Periyaaraa vazharadhu kooda OK, Paramachariyaara Vanangaradhu kooda OK... aanaa thevainaa anga, thevai illanaa inganu panra religious dishonesty amazes me...

One a separate note, leave alone remembering, how many of us realize the greatness of the likes of Sandeep Unnikrishnan, Sadanand Dhate, Thukaram Omble ?

hi siva,

being more than a little ignorant, i do not know the folks in para 2. can you please enlighten us.

your first para, i do not understand the context. i am quite sure it is a wise observation, probably pertaining to me. but i would like to know clearly what it means so that i can profit from your observation. thank you.
 

kunjuppu

Active member
Dear Kunjuppu,

Why do you feel sad? Shri Sravna's hypothesis has ensured that your genes plus certain way of life will ensure that all your descendants will be of very good qualities and high intelligence. hallelujah!


dear sangom,

it is not myself i am thinking. i do not subscribe to such thought, because not only i feel it is wrong. but to perpetuate it to another generation is a crime. also my children who are more open to thoughts, will question it, and blow it apart.

i feel more sad for our way of life ie tamil hinduism with its rich culture of temples, the aura of the chants and above all intrinsic respect for our past. one can sustain this under current values, unless one eschews the past crimes based on manu's laws, and which were inflicted on the dalits and by default made the brahmins the moderators of caste hierarchy.

i have found that this has endowed on us tambrams, more than any other brahmin group in india, an arrogance bordering on insane ignorance ie refusal to accept the essential equality of man before god. to me this is a sad thing and i am not surprised that increasingly our youth either abandon these values or seek solace or freedom, whichever way you see it, in ic and ir marriages.

like the proverbial elephant, we appear to excel at throwing mud on our heads :)
 
hi siva,

being more than a little ignorant, i do not know the folks in para 2. can you please enlighten us.

your first para, i do not understand the context. i am quite sure it is a wise observation, probably pertaining to me. but i would like to know clearly what it means so that i can profit from your observation. thank you.

Kunjuppu,

All the three were killed in the 2008 Mumbai attack (Ajmal Kasab episode). I am at a loss to understand how these three are linked to EVR or CS. They were great, they deserve our highest praise and veneration first and they come above periyar or CS, because they and others like them sacrifice their lives so we can continue discussing smugly here.
 

sravna

Well-known member
"I would say brahmins are unique in this world for their kind of knowledge and the qualities they possess and this naturally is not acceptable to others who lack such qualities. So to smear them you need a pretext. And caste system turns out to be a convenient pretext."— Shri Sravna here.

Shri Sangom,

In the above post you cite I was giving a reason for a particular attitude towards a particular section of society. But in my post to HH, I was outlining a classification, which gives an unbiased way to fit people to jobs. It was this post I was referring to. Hope this clarifies.
 
I

itsmesiva

Guest
Kunjuppu Sir

Sorry if I came across rudely, that definitely was not the intention. Ada kadavule... I wasnt trying to link them to EVR.

Para 2: Enakum idhellaam konja naal munnaadi varaikkum theriyaadhu... thanks to social networking websites, I came to know that these were heroes who faught during 2008 Mumbai attacks. There may be lot more. My point simply was to compliment what was being said in the thread earlier. BAD people are PROBABLY remembered more than HEROES in the long run. Everyone remembers General Dyer, how many (including me) remember Rettaimalai Srinivasan or Chambakaraman Pillai?

Para 1: vera yaaru, DMK family dhaan. Amazed at the multiple levels, degrees and extents of hypocrisy in that family. Kadavul nambikkai in that family is a concept that is spatially and temporally variable. Adhuku dhan sonnen - onnu ippadi vaa, illa appadi pO - nadula pOna you will be (more) noticed.

I apologize if I hurt anyone's feelings, psentiments and opinions. En post-il solla pattadhu ellaam en sondha ennangale. yaarayum punnpadutha solla pattadhu alla (movie title card disclaimaer madhiri illa ?!?!)
 
....Let us assume that these inherent gunas are used to assess the suitability of the person to a job. The important point is that let us not label one's abilities permanently. Even though a person may be seen unfit for a job at a particular time he should be able to qualify for it if there is a perceptible change in his suitability for the job. Remember heredity is only one factor determining one's potential accomplishments.
sravna, there are many problems in the implementation of a varna system that is not birth-based and strictly guna-based -- i.e. based on a combination of three gunas. Let me highlight a few of the problems.
  • There is no precise definition or rule as to what proportion of these gunas will neatly and unambiguously categorize an individual into one varna or another.
  • Even if a rule may be devised, like preponderance of satva, etc., which is a very vague rule for starters, there is no reliable test to determine which guna predominates in an individual.
  • Even if such a test is designed, the next difficulty is matching the innumerable kinds of jobs out there to these four varnas, how would his be done, by whom?
  • If this varna "label" is not a permanent one, as you suggest, all of the above problems will continue to crop up as many times as a given individual wishes to reassess his/her allocated varna.
Strictly guna-based Varna system is an impractical one, offering no clear benefit. A birth based varna system is a practical one, but odious. What is wrong with a varnaless system, one in which each individual chooses what he/she wants to do, pursue the career and make the best of it. It seems only those enamored with Brahminism keep ruminating over varna system, nobody else cares.

Cheers!
 

prasad1

Active member
dear sangom,

it is not myself i am thinking. i do not subscribe to such thought, because not only i feel it is wrong. but to perpetuate it to another generation is a crime. also my children who are more open to thoughts, will question it, and blow it apart.

i feel more sad for our way of life ie tamil hinduism with its rich culture of temples, the aura of the chants and above all intrinsic respect for our past. one can sustain this under current values, unless one eschews the past crimes based on manu's laws, and which were inflicted on the dalits and by default made the brahmins the moderators of caste hierarchy.

i have found that this has endowed on us tambrams, more than any other brahmin group in india, an arrogance bordering on insane ignorance ie refusal to accept the essential equality of man before god. to me this is a sad thing and i am not surprised that increasingly our youth either abandon these values or seek solace or freedom, whichever way you see it, in ic and ir marriages.

like the proverbial elephant, we appear to excel at throwing mud on our heads :)

Kunjuppu,

I think you are over generalizing. I do agree that I do not Know the mindset of today's TB from TN. Average person of any group feels a pride in belonging to a group. I might belong to multiple group at the same time. I belong to Humanity, US citizens , PIO group, Hindu group, Tamil group, Brahmin group, YMCA group, etc. They are not in conflict with each other. I do not feel any superior to any other group. I do not feel that arrogance is only among Brahmins. What about arrogance in other community. You mean to say that Brahmins alone have this arrogance. I do not believe person of your knowledge would say that. I am perfectly happy with IC or IR marriages as marriage is for the two.
Miaya bibi raji to kya karega Kaji.

I am sad that you are sad for the wrong reason.
you just did what you warned us against.
"proverbial elephant, we appear to excel at throwing mud on our heads"

It is assumed that if you have to apologies, you must have a guilty conscience.
 
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Shri Sangom,

In the above post you cite I was giving a reason for a particular attitude towards a particular section of society. But in my post to HH, I was outlining a classification, which gives an unbiased way to fit people to jobs. It was this post I was referring to. Hope this clarifies.

Dear Sravna:

Sorry to tell you that your post #42 may form a basis for calling you a Brahmin Supremacist!

:(
 
...I would say brahmins are unique in this world for their kind of knowledge and the qualities they possess and this naturally is not acceptable to others who lack such qualities. So to smear them you need a pretext. And caste system turns out to be a convenient pretext. .
Sravna, I have to agree with Y, this does come across quite awful. You having lots of NB and non-hindu friends do not excuse this, if anything such claims about having NB and NH friends comes across as condescending.

From whatever interactions we have had I think you are fine person, one I would be proud to call a friend, if you let me. So, a level-headed and considerate person like you saying such things as the above is possible only because of your steadfast belief in Hindu Darma that asserts divine origin for the despicable Varna system. If you are free from this belief system your true and innate character of love and compassion will shine through and you will never say anything like the above. This is why I have been arguing that faith in religion and the supernatural makes otherwise loving and nice people act in ways such people will never act otherwise.

Cheers!
 

renuka

Well-known member
I dont think I would like to call Sravna a Supremacist.
I have noted many times that some of Srvana's post can be ambiguous and can be open to interpretation in several ways and upon clarification he gives us all the clearer picture of what he really meant.
I feel he made his picture very clear when he wrote about Gunas thats why I didnt ask him anymore questions cos he had already given his side of the story.

I think we all have to give him the benefit of the doubt cos I dont think a person who is steeped in Advaita and enlightens us with many beneficial posts here in forum will have such "supremacy"

Just thought I will share what I felt.
 
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sravna

Well-known member
Dear Shri Nara, Shri Yamaka, Renuka,

As far as possible I prefer to stay clear of controversial topics because reason takes a second place to emotions and prejudices in such cases. There can be no objective views. I understand that some of my views especially on these topics would not be accepted by many. The fact is that the views are not out of bias. But I also understand that I need to respect sentiments.So the best way as I said is to stay clear. BTW, thanks Renuka for your post.
 
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i heard it was a garland of slippers on a Rama idol...

Sir, there are temples for Rama in tamil nadu...not as many as Shiva but there are temples associated with ramayana legends. Madhurantakam and Valvil Rama of Kumbakonam come to my mind...Kamba Ramayana was afterall part of tamil literature in the 12th century AD...

Dunno how far true but am told evr did this atrocity mainly to prove that he was not partial to vaishnavism, since marimalai adigal used to accuse evr of going soft on vaishnavism..I saw some info on that here also -- Maraimalai Adigal - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I beleive Rama is an object of devotion in tamil Hinduism of Jaffna...please correct me if wrong.

No, not really. I'm from Jaffna, so I'd know.
 
Dear Shri Nara, Shri Yamaka, Renuka,

As far as possible I prefer to stay clear of controversial topics because reason takes a second place to emotions and prejudices in such cases. There can be no objective views. I understand that some of my views especially on these topics would not be accepted by many. But the fact is the views are not out of bias. But I also understand that I need to
respect sentiments.So the best way as I said is to stay clear. BTW, thanks Renuka for your post.

Dear Sravna:

Many people in this Forum have said that Society (at least in TN) has virulent anti-Brahmin sentiment, which is sickening.

I used to tell them "As long as there is Brahmin Supremacy in the Society, anti-Brahmin sentiments will be there, whether you like it or not".

You have made your point!

Very sad.
 
I dont think I would like to call Sravna a Supremacist.
I have noted many times that some of Srvana's post can be ambiguous and can be open to interpretation in several ways and upon clarification he gives us all the clearer picture of what he really meant.
I feel he made his picture very clear when he wrote about Gunas thats why I didnt ask him anymore questions cos he had already given his side of the story.

I think we all have to give him the benefit of the doubt cos I dont think a person who is steeped in Advaita and enlightens us with many beneficial posts here in forum will have such "supremacy"

Just thought I will share what I felt.

Hi Renuka:

Please read again post #42. Forget about the author of the post for a second.

Then tell me whether there is "Brahmin Supremacy" or not.

Thanks

Y
 

renuka

Well-known member
Hi Renuka:

Please read again post #42. Forget about the author of the post for a second.

Then tell me whether there is "Brahmin Supremacy" or not.

Thanks

Y

My answer is No.There is no supremacy.Not that its coming from Sravna but just look at it this way.
In that post he was just saying that people hate Brahmins cos of their knowledge/intelligence and qualities.

Did you see what I wrote after that? I brought out a point that its not genetics but rather lifestyle that determines anyones intelligence and Sravna agreed with me.

Ok I will give you an example..out here in Malaysia Chinese are very rich and successful.
They are very hard working and rather Rajasic in their quest for wealth.
Do we have to hate them ? No isnt it?
In fact we can learn from them how they go about bussiness so well etc.

Same way..over the generations Brahmins have been laying more importance to knowledge and hence people assumed only they are intelligent.
Now we all know that anyone in this world can study provided we put in the effort.
Some people are jealous of things they so called "dont have" cos they never really tried to acquire it.

I cant talk on behalf of Brahmins becos I am not one..but I personally know even many people(Non Brahmins) who think Brahmin is synonym with being intelligent.

Nowadays when we see knowledge and education open to anyone..we dont really always see a Brahmin being the top student in class all the while.
In my college one of the best students was from Saudi Arabia.

Anyone in this world can have supremacy feeling for any reason.
We still live in the world of duality.
Even if we Indians didnt have the caste system I am very sure as humans we would have found some other way to classify ourselves.

Tell me the truth..I am sure deep down inside you yourself have the Supremacy feeling that you have realized that there is No God but many others in the world are still living in falsehood,fantasy and fiction.

I am sure Bragging Rights also fall under the category of Supremacy.

How can I point finger at someone else when I myself could have a flaw in me.

Dont take my reply to you as trying to point finger at you but since you asked me a question this is my honest reply.
 
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sravna

Well-known member
Dear Shri Yamaka,

I try to be unbiased. I am saying the reverse of what you said. Strong anti brahmin sentiments got the worst out of me. It is a vicious cycle I think. But I am glad that there are no such discriminatory attitude among today's youth.

But more than anything else my concern is that it is the selfish who are in control of everything now. Whether one is a brahmin or not, I prefer wise people to be at the top. That is the reason I have a liking for a system that uses virtue as its yardstick to understand people. But as always my slogan is be pragmatic to the world but virtuous inside.
 

renuka

Well-known member
Dear Shri Yamaka,

I try to be unbiased. I am saying the reverse of what you said. Strong anti brahmin sentiments got the worst out of me. It is a vicious cycle I think. But I am glad that there are no such discriminatory attitude among today's youth.

But more than anything else my concern is that it is the selfish who are in control of everything now. Whether one is a brahmin or not, I prefer wise people to be at the top. That is the reason I have a liking for a system that uses virtue as its yardstick to understand people. But as always my slogan is be pragmatic to the world but virtuous inside.

Dear Sravna,

Dont you think all of us benefited from this debate?

See you yourself wrote this
Strong anti brahmin sentiments got the worst out of me. It is a vicious cycle I think. But I am glad that there are no such discriminatory attitude among today's youth.


That goes to show that all of us still hold on to some form of identification whether we are Brahmin or Non Brahmin.

Its not easy for all of us to sing "Chidananda Roopah Shivoham Shivoham" yet.
 
"Tell me the truth..I am sure deep down inside you yourself have the Supremacy feeling that you have realized that there is No God but many others in the world are still living in falsehood,fantasy and fiction." -post 72

Please consider this -

1. Talking about a community or a caste like "Brahmins" is quite different from talking about an individual and his style.

2. I have a different POV about GOD and Religion from many of you. I agree. Does that give me a sense of "Supremacy".. I doubt. I am different from you "on that particular issue". Nothing more. Perhaps, on another issue, we may have similar view!

Yes, I have my own Id/ego.. which is what driving me to grow, which many of you don't agree with. Fine. You all want to go to that promised land of "No Ego"! Lol.

3. Yes, I talk about Bragging Rights... Is this part of a feeling of "Supremacy"? I don't think so... this shows my personal style: When I earn it, I brag about it... You may not like it.. Fine.

4. The fact you consider some "flaw" in post 42 is what I want to confirm from you... Perhaps, if it's written by another person, you will not write all this!

5. I know very well that Sravna is a popular person in this Forum, and you like him very much.. that's why I was appalled to read his post 42.

If it's from another person, I would have mumbled "Here goes another Brahmin Supremacist, who has earned the Brahmin Bashing!"

Take care.

:)
 
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