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History : the Taj mahal

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Sesh: Btw what is wrong if a temple is constructed in place of the Taj?

while i was wondering what is wrong if the Taj remains as it is, here came an amusing answer:

VV: and btw as for the taj .. there is no need to re-construct a temple ... the taj , pretty much , is the temple!

and now am wondering if that is why namaz is offered there. because it is a temple already :)

oh well, this is all really so misplaced, isn't it. there are some elderly folk i know who can have that kinda mistrust and distrust for the muslims (as ghoram manishulu and what not), but i am yet to see that attitude from the generation of my parents onwards..it surprises me that its the young ones that speak like this here.

dunno abt vv, sesh and bala, but i grew up partly saying the pledge 'all indians are my brothers and sisters'. if someday i have to convert to a muslim or christian to keep peace within my family, then so be it, i will do it. sanathana never ceases to exist, really...it just renews itself, transforms and surfaces back again, though we may not be tehre to see it...it remains an eternal truth.
 
Bala: I think in the forum someone wrote that Kanchi Kamakshi Amman temple is actually a jain temple.Dunno,of course which of all this is correct.But Jain temple architecture is so vastly different,if one goes to Rajasthan and other such areas and even the Jain temple in GN chetty rd,in chennai is vastly different.So,i think Kanchi Kamakshi is built by Cholas only.
A southie Jain temple need not be built in the same style as a Mathura Jain mandir. So if we want to claim temple rights to a particular site by demolishing a mosque, we should be digging up every place of worship to re-establish what it was originally. Even if it can be done, what is the whole purpose of doing it? Can it help re-establish dharma as it is claimed? To re-live us from this so-called amusing 'stockholm syndrome' :) ? And wud ppl in the present time be willing to give up their current worship site? Lets us say that by quirk of fate the Kanchi temple does turn out to be a Jain temple, are you willing to return it to a Jain board ? And what if it is in lieu of begetting the Ram janma bhoomi site?

Bala: 800 years of islamic rule,(stockholm syndrome) is too much for us Indians plus add 200 years of christians rule is way tooooooo much for Indians.Its a miracle that hindus are still able to be hindus at all
People in all those years did not tend to abandon the idea of following any religion or convert, as much as people can tend to do today. These days muslims turned atheists can form a faithfreedom.org, christians can debaptise, jews and hindus can become apostate....This is the "information age" where general awareness is high. And its combined with a democracy where everyone has his freedom of choice. Its not the same as the past when a king's exploits cud be turned into stuff to be read as puranas...

And this is typically so very misplaced,
..people should not construe our hindu tolerance as a sign of cowardice.Certainly none of us are cowards...I am sure you are all the time lending your cheeks to the offender,but no thanks.I believe Lord Krishna's clarion call to Shriman Arjunar=pick up your bow & arrow(now,AK 47,Nukes..) and fight for your Dharma,even if you die,you will reach me in my abode=goloka.I would rather follow my dharma of brahmana-kshatriya-vaishya-shudran and die for my Lord's clarion call
First Parashurama, now Krishna - hey bhagwan.. all bcoz of some imagined idea that somebody considers hindus as cowards....so now we shall await the formation of the hindu jihadist army that goes around doing things to pick up fights in the first place, and then claim to fight in the 'defence' of dharma..sigh...no wonder there was a prophecy that ppl will rule unrighteously in the kaliyuga..probably that is why there is this concept of Kalki to come...

Me too am signing up for the hindutva as written so very beautifully by sri hh1971 -ji.
 
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Dear VV,

I stay away from responding back post #21,cos, this topic is not of much interest to me..
 
Dear V.V,

#21..This topic is not of much interest to me, so I prefer to stay away..Bear with me.

May be, you may re-read my old posts, which has subtle answers for this..
 
Sri mm Ji,

'Wrong done to us'? Who is this 'us'? Indians? Hindus?

There are wrongs/rights only in contemporary history. After 50 years, they do not count. Where do you stop in asking for redress? After a while this looking back in history for injustice is to simply put is manic. The people responsible are long gone, in the dustbin of history.

I think the Hindutva movement has done a great job somehow to infuse the feeling among it's followers that somehow we were the only one aggreived. Despite all this, we somehow are flourishing as people! How did this happen?

Regards,
KRS



krs!

even if proof is shown, I don't think you or secular indians won't do much to correct the wrong done to us.

just my 2 cents...
 
To clarifiy: The taj need not be demolished and rebuilt; it could be modified... that was my intention in saying that a temple should be built...

Shri Hari, how does identifying the original structure defame hindutva in any way?

Knowledge is the ultimate - when we are so proud in claiming this, why not when it comes to issues like these? Just so that minorities may feel that their history is maligned, should we refrain from the truth?

Sir, I have no qualms in accepting everyone as Indians, but then we should look at history truthfully and that truth includes the vandalism also; when the govt is correcting the purported social imbalance as a result of the hindu religion, should they also not restore the heritages which were destroyed as a result of invasions? Apart from asking 'why?', nobody has a convincing answer to this...

Unity can never be achieved by compromising; it is like asking people, in the name of ahimsa, tolerance, peace etc, to live with the robber(s) who has/have stolen half the house...

We can talk love, peace, understanding... yes, but not always - I wonder why this simple point is not understood!!!

Shri KRS, why is not a carbon dating run on the taj? If it is purely an islamic edifice, no issues, but then one has to be sure, isnt it?

Can we look at it this way? - 'Apart from history books, what is the proof that the taj was a really muslim construct?'

Your views presuppose that whatever one speaks against existing structures (esp of the minority) is against secularism... such a thinking itself could be pseudo-secular...
 
To clarifiy: The taj need not be demolished and rebuilt; it could be modified... that was my intention in saying that a temple should be built...

Shri Hari, how does identifying the original structure defame hindutva in any way?

Knowledge is the ultimate - when we are so proud in claiming this, why not when it comes to issues like these? Just so that minorities may feel that their history is maligned, should we refrain from the truth?

Sir, I have no qualms in accepting everyone as Indians, but then we should look at history truthfully and that truth includes the vandalism also; when the govt is correcting the purported social imbalance as a result of the hindu religion, should they also not restore the heritages which were destroyed as a result of invasions? Apart from asking 'why?', nobody has a convincing answer to this...

Unity can never be achieved by compromising; it is like asking people, in the name of ahimsa, tolerance, peace etc, to live with the robber(s) who has/have stolen half the house...

We can talk love, peace, understanding... yes, but not always - I wonder why this simple point is not understood!!!

Shri KRS, why is not a carbon dating run on the taj? If it is purely an islamic edifice, no issues, but then one has to be sure, isnt it?

Can we look at it this way? - 'Apart from history books, what is the proof that the taj was a really muslim construct?'

Your views presuppose that whatever one speaks against existing structures (esp of the minority) is against secularism... such a thinking itself could be pseudo-secular...
dear ss,
i can support this arguement...its pseudo secular...nothing but to
support to minority...

reagrds
 
Dear Sri SS,

Let me take up your comments in sequence to respond:

1. Yes, Carbon dating was done on a sample of the outside door taken by an American student. And the result showed that the wood was 350 years older than the Taj.

But this has two issues: a) Carbon dating is not accurate in hundreds of years and b) the wood used in the door might have been preserved after it's death (Carbon dating applies to living organisms after their death) Please read the following article, which is neutral:
http://www.vnn.org/editorials/ET0201/ET17-7101.html

2. But sir, the preponderance of historic evidence point out to the Taj being a mausoleum. Please read these three links:
http://www.islamicart.com/library/empires/india/taj_mahal.html

http://books.google.com/books?id=AV...7cyvBg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taj_Mahal

Each one has scholorly citations, not the unsupported assertions by Dr. P.N.Oak. When the preponderance of the scholorly works on history and architecture by reputed authors today say that it was built by Shah Jehan and there are eye witnesses from foreign countries with no axe to grind about it being built, then I should say, it was built by them. Even Conrad Elst agree with this. By the way, India, in terms of it's wealth attained it's zenith at the time of Aurangazeb and so the funds for building such an immense structure could have only been from that time, as any local kingdoms could not afford such a building. And moreover, you can see the muslim artisans who made it happen - their families still continue the artisanship. So, these are my proofs against a single person saying that it was a hindu temple based on word play, whom even the SC of India would not believe.

3. You are easily throwing out words like 'secular' and 'pseudo secular'. I do not support the revisionism of history. As I said before, it is a dangerous path to traverse. Has no use today. If this makes me a 'pseudo secularist' in your eyes, please go ahead. Call me with whatever name you want. Demonizing me will not resolve the issue.

Regards,
KRS
Shri KRS, why is not a carbon dating run on the taj? If it is purely an islamic edifice, no issues, but then one has to be sure, isnt it?

Can we look at it this way? - 'Apart from history books, what is the proof that the taj was a really muslim construct?'

Your views presuppose that whatever one speaks against existing structures (esp of the minority) is against secularism... such a thinking itself could be pseudo-secular...
 
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So, dear Sri TBS Ji sir,

What is pseudo secular? What is 'nothing but to support the minority'? So do you agree that Taj Mahal was a temple of Shiva?

Regards,
KRS

dear ss,
i can support this arguement...its pseudo secular...nothing but to
support to minority...

reagrds
 
krs

i used the word "IF" , even if it is proved that the monument was a temple before, you guys will sit on to that. What you will do?

Just curious.... this may end up like another mosque over temple issue...

So don't worry nothing will happen to TM .

but please don't curb the spirit of enquiry... saying the courts of India dismissed the case. We all jolly well know the state of court affairs in INDIA.

You are welcome to rebutt the 100+ odd point raised supporting that it coud be a temple.

Don't brand anything or any issue under HINDUTVA and curb the very spirit of enquiry...










Sri mm Ji,

'Wrong done to us'? Who is this 'us'? Indians? Hindus?

There are wrongs/rights only in contemporary history. After 50 years, they do not count. Where do you stop in asking for redress? After a while this looking back in history for injustice is to simply put is manic. The people responsible are long gone, in the dustbin of history.

I think the Hindutva movement has done a great job somehow to infuse the feeling among it's followers that somehow we were the only one aggreived. Despite all this, we somehow are flourishing as people! How did this happen?

Regards,
KRS
 
sesh-ji,

i am not suggesting that enquiring into the 'truth' about taj mahal is per se bad but it is my firm view that it gets bad press for hindutva.

i am sure you will agree with me that secularist of every hue in india are waiting for opportunities to lampoon hindus/hinduism/hindutva in no particular order. so, we dont do ourselves any good by constantly look into the past.

you are a fine young man. given the choice of creating history and rewriting history, what would you choose ? i would be disappointed if you would choose the latter.

sir, my point is very simple. carbon dating or no carbon dating ; temple or no temple ; tejo mahalaya or no tejo mahalaya ; i dont think it is serving anyone's interest to tamper with history. that too selectively.

i know that you would argue that a 'start has to be made somewhere' ; my response to that being why start something which is futile ?

i wish you would respond to my point about whether the survival of hinduism hinges on such rewriting attempts ?

it is my firm belief, gone on record on this one, that hindus of india are decisively more secular than other communities. we have lived harmoniously with other communities.

hinduism for it's part has weathered every storm ; there may be symbols which reflect the agony of mughal invasion but as much as they proclaim the historical fact of the invasion, they are also testimonies to the fact that they could not succeed in over powering india.

by actually remaining a hindu majority nation, hinduism has proved decisively that the mughals did not succeed. by outlasting the mughals, hinduism has won the existential battle.

the beauty of hinduism lies in it's essence. despite a brutal majority, we have not declared ourselves as a hindu theocracy. we can live with anyone in harmony and it is upto others to reciprocate.

the greatest disservice to the cause of hinduism, i firmly believe, was in pulling the babri down. we lost a great opportunity to show to the world that hindus do not want to achieve anything thru violent means. we have exchanged notes on this earlier and if the truth is what you think it is, i am sure it would have seen us thru. afterall this is the land of satyameva jeyathe.

if we want to erase the memories of everything that is not palatable to us, then should we not pull down everything that the british left ? we should pull down the rashtrapathi bhavan, the rippon building and the victoria memorial too ? afterall india's capitulation to the british is as shameful as the mughal invasion ? why do we feel comfortable with these 'living symbols' of british occupancy ?

if we have an iota of self-respect then probably we should not be using the railways systems and postal systems that were created by british, shouldnt we ?

my intention is not to throw the gauntlet at you ; i hope to convey to you that it is too impractical to indulge in such selective enquiries into the past ignoring the more pressing and urgent tasks that lie before us ?

800 million indians are living in abject penury ; voices screaming in hunger should not allow us to sleep in peace if we have conscience ; but we do sleep.

i am only requesting that we do not stretch our conscience further by ignoring the millions those who need our attention and action ; now !

ignoring them, in my humble view, would lump us along with the ultra-rich of india who numb us with their ostentations ; indulging in selective rewriting of history, if i take a more harsh view, is actually insulting the poverty of india.

i am of the opinion that hindus and hinduism have to resist temptations of rewriting history if not for anything, atleast to distinguish us from the taliban which destroyed the bamiyan buddhas.

the world is judging us at this moment ; we dont want to be seen as the ones having blood on our hands.
 
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Dear Hari, hats off to you. A good heart..... An indeed wonderful and thoughful post.. I have nothing more to add here



>>>
800 million indians are living in abject penury ; voices screaming in hunger should not allow us to sleep in peace if we have conscience ; but we do sleep.>>>>the world is judging us at this moment ; we dont want to be seen as the ones having blood on our hands>>>
 
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hey ! billions are looted and stashed away in swiss banks and other foreign banks, that is the real cause of 800 million below poverty line.

others are watching so what? let them watch.

that doesn't mean we should accept all the false HISTORY that is taught is it?

but one small observation, what the moghuls couldn't do inspite of the brute force , the western science did it already.
 
re

ss

I am with you thru and thru.We resonate on the same frequency.Its important for Indians to rectify the past atrocities committed by Islam and Christians,who invaded us.This is in no way,punitive action against present Muslims or Christians of India or worldover.Indian Hindus NEED this healing.I saw the healing process for african-americans here in USA.I cried from the bottom of my heart when President Barrack Hussain Obama became the president of USA.So,i know how it feels to make somethings right.Indian Hindus deserve it.Indian Hindus have earned it.Every cell in my body mind and soul is shrieking out and wailing to the torture Indian Hindus have been subjected to.The poor in India is a huge thing,we are working to emancipate it and we will prevail,but,that does not mean we ought to stop the healing process for Indian Hindus.Om Sarva Lokas Samasthas Sukhino Bhavanthu.

sb

p.s.hari nicely written to read.but in real life,its a different ball game altogether.
 
this is our problem, indian problemm - we always think what the other think about us?

So even if wrong done to us - we just don't do anything fearing what other would think?

Damn it ! Nobody has the time to think nowadays, if thy think , they put self-interest first, if they get to gain something , they will close the eyes , that's how we have monarchies in SAUDI ARABIA.. DAMN WHO CARE ABOUT DEMOCRACY THERE? but democracy in other countries mean there is a room for subtle manipulations, that's why we have banana republics...

NO COUNTRY OR UN HAS ANY MORAL GUTS TO QUESTION ANY ATROCITIES , they all just know too well how to play the game of politics.

so let's continue our quest and expose the moghul atrocities atleast now...
 
p.s.hari nicely written to read.but in real life,its a different ball game altogether.

'Bond' Bala-ji

:)

Task of pulling millions from poverty seems 'not real' to you ;

Task of rewriting history seems 'practical' to you ;

I must say on the scale of reality, we are at opposing ends.

Anyways, i have nothing to add if you continue to think that rewriting history is necessary, feasible and practical.

More power to your shoulders.

Amen.

PS : I presume you dont have to travel in crammed buses and trains like us in India, so why dont you consider the option of giving more space between your words and certainly between sentences. Makes easy reading. Pl consider if you can.
 
if the willy politicians pull the money and stashed away , then we all have to suffer the pain what?

there is a culture of giving , prescribed in the vedas in the form of Yagas.

if that very culture of giving is attacked , then people have to suffer no other way
my dear hari...

because if you bathed a dog and keep it in the house - please don;t expect it to act differently.. dog's nature is dogs nature ... swindler's nature is swindling doesn't matter which post they are given.
 
Part 1

Shri Hari,

i am not suggesting that enquiring into the 'truth' about taj mahal is per se bad but it is my firm view that it gets bad press for hindutva.

Why should it be branded a hindutva tag? Is it not reason enough to dispel the false notion surrounding the construct?

i am sure you will agree with me that secularist of every hue in india are waiting for opportunities to lampoon hindus/hinduism/hindutva in no particular order. so, we dont do ourselves any good by constantly look into the past.

But is it not cowardly to retreat just so there are opposing voices? Barking dogs will always go on… actions cannot be decided based on that.

you are a fine young man. given the choice of creating history and rewriting history, what would you choose ? i would be disappointed if you would choose the latter.

In the light of new information everything undergoes change so that the true picture is shown. The taj mahal is history, but did it have a history before? That is the question. Maybe, once the truth is shown, the people’s verdict would be final as to whether it ought to be restored to its previous self (if any).

sir, my point is very simple. carbon dating or no carbon dating ; temple or no temple ; tejo mahalaya or no tejo mahalaya ; i dont think it is serving anyone's interest to tamper with history. that too selectively.

How can it be called it tampering of history? It is used in the negative sense here; think of it as a research. Scientists are researching into various aspects of civilization and history as an ongoing process. Doing an enquiry would not halt any other developmental process!!!

i know that you would argue that a 'start has to be made somewhere' ; my response to that being why start something which is futile ?

Why is it futile? As explained previously, to verify the truth itself is a good enough reason for the research (at least, in this issue).

i wish you would respond to my point about whether the survival of hinduism hinges on such rewriting attempts ?

I did not say that this issue is linked to the survival of Hinduism per se. But, if the taj indeed were to be proved the tejo mahalaya, would it not have an impact on the mentality of the Indian muslim? Obviously, their stance would be much more harmonized, coz even after destruction of such great temples by the muslims, india is harbouring them as its own…

it is my firm belief, gone on record on this one, that hindus of india are decisively more secular than other communities. we have lived harmoniously with other communities.

I beg to differ, albeit a little – we have been tolerant coz we had no other choice. India was a spiritually enriched land (not technologically advanced). And as such, the brutal techniques numbed them sufficiently to be overrun by invading forces. It was more the barbarious actions in the case of the moghuls, and technology in the case of the british that we had to be coloured as secular. WE HAD NO CHOICE BUT TO LIVE WITH THE OTHER COMMUNITIES. Is it harmonious? Well, that is another interesting question.

But, our religion does not defame any – in that we are secular. But sir, it is this attitude which has taken us for a ride. Am not saying that we should not be, but that we should be prudent enough to protect our interests.

hinduism for it's part has weathered every storm ; there may be symbols which reflect the agony of mughal invasion but as much as they proclaim the historical fact of the invasion, they are also testimonies to the fact that they could not succeed in over powering india.

In fact, Aurangazeb’s empire extended the whole of India (almost); there are many reasons as to why Hinduism was not completely quelled – jiziya, inter-rivalries amongst the Moslems themselves, continued aggression by various hindu kings like Rana Pratap, Shivaji, Hakka/Bukka, and the fact that such a vast empire was very difficult to administer and control.

by actually remaining a hindu majority nation, hinduism has proved decisively that the mughals did not succeed. by outlasting the mughals, hinduism has won the existential battle.

It remained a hindu nation not through peaceful efforts, but by bold and heroic kings – we would be wrong in saying that it ‘remained’ in spite of the Moslem onslaught. So you see, aggression was its protector.

the beauty of hinduism lies in it's essence. despite a brutal majority, we have not declared ourselves as a hindu theocracy. we can live with anyone in harmony and it is upto others to reciprocate.

Yes, the ideology is fine, but the practice is pathetic. Again, one cannot sit and wait indefinitely for the other to reciprocate…

the greatest disservice to the cause of hinduism, i firmly believe, was in pulling the babri down. we lost a great opportunity to show to the world that hindus do not want to achieve anything thru violent means. we have exchanged notes on this earlier and if the truth is what you think it is, i am sure it would have seen us thru. afterall this is the land of satyameva jeyathe.

When one cannot establish the truth through fair means, what is the option left out? You might say ‘more waiting in the hope that things will eventually turnaround’, but sir, things do not happen by themselves. In all cases, there is individual or collective effort – either through peace or force. There is a saturation point for everything.

if we want to erase the memories of everything that is not palatable to us, then should we not pull down everything that the british left ? we should pull down the rashtrapathi bhavan, the rippon building and the victoria memorial too ? afterall india's capitulation to the british is as shameful as the mughal invasion ? why do we feel comfortable with these 'living symbols' of british occupancy ?

Do you think that the edifices you mention above were built on demolished temples? Or is there any evidence to show the same? If it is so, then that too has to be researched. The central question here is about constructs that were built on demolished hindu structures.

I, or rather, majority of the hindus have no issues with the churches or mosques or darghas which are not made out of existing hindu constructs… Hope, I have made this clear.

if we have an iota of self-respect then probably we should not be using the railways systems and postal systems that were created by british, shouldnt we ?

I think the argument is misplaced. The core point of the discussion is not about all practices, for then we should forgo even the english literal.

my intention is not to throw the gauntlet at you ; i hope to convey to you that it is too impractical to indulge in such selective enquiries into the past ignoring the more pressing and urgent tasks that lie before us ?

I assure you that I take it in the right sense. But you see, I fail to understand as to how this would hamper other activities? There are various ministries/task forces/committees/archaeological bodies which could take up this matter without disturbing whatsoever developmental activities that are being carried on.

Apart from development, parallel activities/research do take place – whether it be agriculture, technology or history.


Your reference here indicates that all the resources would be utilized with a single point aim of trying to research into the matter of the taj... it is not so.



800 million indians are living in abject penury ; voices screaming in hunger should not allow us to sleep in peace if we have conscience ; but we do sleep.

I, or rather every individual of conscience, would agree with this statement. But then, as I pointed out earlier, this is nowhere related to this issue. There are millions of money siphoned out of illegal activities, persons occupying places of profit and acting with vested interests, benami activities, nepotism, corruption, reverse-discrimination etc which are the reasons for the the miserable conditions of the poor and down-trodden, and not a simple research!!!

i am only requesting that we do not stretch our conscience further by ignoring the millions those who need our attention and action ; now !

I hope that I have conveyed my point clearly to show how one does not relate to the other.
 
Part 2

ignoring them, in my humble view, would lump us along with the ultra-rich of india who numb us with their ostentations ; indulging in selective rewriting of history, if i take a more harsh view, is actually insulting the poverty of india.

The rich flaunt their opulence to showcase their ego, but we engage in research to show the truth.


And as I said earlier, this cannot be taken to assume that all other activities are choked, as a result of such research.

i am of the opinion that hindus and hinduism have to resist temptations of rewriting history if not for anything, atleast to distinguish us from the taliban which destroyed the bamiyan buddhas.

It is my personal opinion that the temple should be restored. But at least, would you agree that the research should be done to know the truth?

the world is judging us at this moment ; we dont want to be seen as the ones having blood on our hands.

The world judges based on the sensitivity of the balance of power. Truth gives inner strength – after the storm comes the calm.
 
re

'Bond' Bala-ji

:)

Task of pulling millions from poverty seems 'not real' to you ;

Task of rewriting history seems 'practical' to you ;

I must say on the scale of reality, we are at opposing ends.

hari,plz read #40 correctly.I have clearly written,that our poverty is of huge concern and we are working towards removal of it.'garibi hatoa' was the slogan of Mrs.Indira Gandhi.When she faltered,she immdly went after making rich people poor?? and established a dynastic rule,which even today is the curse for India.And dittoheads like MUKA are blaming her for his un-ruly actions of dynastic rules in TN??.Yet,if a brahmin says by birth he has some rights,he will be tortured,ridiculed,and the scriptures twisted to someother meaning,and his temples allowed to be demolished and mosque or church is erected on top of it.enna saar nyayam idhu?

Anyways, i have nothing to add if you continue to think that rewriting history is necessary, feasible and practical.

More power to your shoulders.

Amen.

I am making history as i write now,by sowing the seeds for future generations to take the cudgel from me.My jathi will know how to carry this further.

PS : I presume you dont have to travel in crammed buses and trains like us in India, so why dont you consider the option of giving more space between your words and certainly between sentences. Makes easy reading. Pl consider if you can.

Even though,my father had a car and could have got a driver to chaufer us to school,college..etc but we were made to use public transport system only.So,i know exactly what you write about crammed up spaces or privacy in society there!Only in engineering college did he get me a scooter,and that too a bajaj only.No Enfield bullet for me :(...appolam oray gaajji for bullet m/c...hope its still manufactured in chennai..?i am increasing the font sizes for you,hope this helps!

sb

sb007,

When someone requests you to beak up your paragraph for readability, responding by increasing your font size is borderline mocking. Please don't do it in the future.

I have reset the font size on your response.

Regards,
KRS
 
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i am not a historian ; neither am i a religious expert.

as someone with short supply of grey cells, i want to pose this question to you on how you define history ?

is history the record of events that happened or is history the record of events that we like or suits our preferences.

if there was a shiva temple, surely it is part of history ;

if shahjahan did raze it or modified it to build the TJ, even that, according to me is history.

now in this context place my question about the symbols of british rule.

why are we not peeved about these symbols (whether or not they have been built on razed temples) which proclaim our submission to the british rule ?

i think it is common knowledge that the victor gets all the spoils ; or that the king has absolute command over his kingdom and his writ runs ;

so if shahjahan did rule that part of agra back then, he had absolute authority to do what he wished to ; so this has to be part of the history.

how would you react to a muslim wanting to preserve the taj as the symbol of the mughal's invasion ?

saying that we will erase all the symbols of mughal invasion tantamounts to refusal to accept what actually transpired and recorded in history.

and my point about what is our current priority has to be understood in a certain context.

you seem to think that the act of redeeming the hindu temples can be divested from efforts to improve the plight of the poor ; in my view it cannot be delinked.

for every stride that we take in improving deliverance to the poor, fissures in the society pulls us back.

do you think that 'modifying the taj' is easy in india ? given the current social milieu ?

i dont think so and even if you disagree i dont think it is necessary.

if i were a muslim and you were a hindu and we were neighbours, we wouldnt come to blows over this discussion ; but even a suggestion of 'modifying the taj' would spark a major communal violence in india, which we can ill-afford.

awacs from israel, nuclear arms, agni-1,2,3, brahmos, chandrayaan, nano technology, stock markets, commodity futures, 3g, blackberry all seem so meaningless to me, if as a nation, we cannot feed millions daily.

i was deeply moved by an article by ashish nandy, a social scientist writing for tehelka commenting on indian elections ;

you may read it here : http://www.tehelka.com/story_main41.asp?filename=Ne300509the_hour.asp

his last but one para reads and i quote :

"It would be a big mistake if the UPA saw this victory as a mandate for unbridled liberalisation. Some care for the bottom of the society, some belief that the poor should be a priority focus is vital for this society to survive and retain its idea of itself as a humane society. You cannot pay Rs 12,000 for a meal for two people in a five-star hotel and come out and throw Rs 10 to a boy competing with a dog for the garbage and think you have done your duty. Neither can you wait 200 years for the so-called trickle down effect that never comes."

anything that compromises the hard built social capital is something we should shun at this moment.

i think there are so many worthy hindu causes that we may take up than trying to alter history to suit our preferences.
 
Shri KRS,

In the same order (in red):

1. Yes, Carbon dating was done on a sample of the outside door taken by an American student. And the result showed that the wood was 350 years older than the Taj.

But this has two issues: a) Carbon dating is not accurate in hundreds of years and b) the wood used in the door might have been preserved after it's death (Carbon dating applies to living organisms after their death) Please read the following article, which is neutral:
http://www.vnn.org/editorials/ET0201/ET17-7101.html

http://www.allaboutarchaeology.org/is-carbon-dating-accurate-faq.htm

a) I am no archeologist, but situations and circumstances also play a factor in carbon-dating.. assuming that there were no other factors to hasten the decay, then 350 years is a valid enough proof

b) Yes, could be, but that is another assumption! And where was it preserved for 350 years? How was a piece of wood so important that it was preserved for such a long time unless it were not part of an existing construct?


2. But sir, the preponderance of historic evidence point out to the Taj being a mausoleum. Please read these three links:
http://www.islamicart.com/library/em...taj_mahal.html

http://books.google.com/books?id=AV-...esult&resnum=1

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taj_Mahal

Each one has scholorly citations, not the unsupported assertions by Dr. P.N.Oak. When the preponderance of the scholorly works on history and architecture by reputed authors today say that it was built by Shah Jehan and there are eye witnesses from foreign countries with no axe to grind about it being built, then I should say, it was built by them. Even Conrad Elst agree with this. By the way, India, in terms of it's wealth attained it's zenith at the time of Aurangazeb and so the funds for building such an immense structure could have only been from that time, as any local kingdoms could not afford such a building. And moreover, you can see the muslim artisans who made it happen - their families still continue the artisanship. So, these are my proofs against a single person saying that it was a hindu temple based on word play, whom even the SC of India would not believe.

The assumptions are not wild. There was an established pattern of the moslem constructs - that is of building or superimposing on existing hindu temples. Have you visited Mathura?

And again, Mr. Oak mentions the non-existence of documented proof of the taj, which is purported to be over a period of 20 years!!! Is it not strange?

The undisputed existence of a construct cannot be claimed in support of its argument, as it is in the case of the taj. Artisans might have been used, not to build, but to modify.

There are so many arguments which Mr. Oak cites to prove clearly that it was a superimposed structure. This has to be analyzed in light of the situation and the type of rule that was in vogue at that period. Not just academic archeological opinions.


3. You are easily throwing out words like 'secular' and 'pseudo secular'. I do not support the revisionism of history. As I said before, it is a dangerous path to traverse. Has no use today. If this makes me a 'pseudo secularist' in your eyes, please go ahead. Call me with whatever name you want. Demonizing me will not resolve the issue.

A read of your posts tend to infer that hindutva is fundamentalistic, aggressive and blinded by vendetta. While professing a view on a topic, either we may explain the facts and remain non-comittal or can be plain sentimental. You tend to place facts, but then judge. It is such judging mentality that has coloured hindutva as fundamentalistic.

My intention was not to malign you or your thoughts, but just to show how misleading it can be to the other.

You, sir, are as much entitled to your opinion as are the others.

Regards,
 
hari

awacs from israel, nuclear arms, agni-1,2,3, brahmos, chandrayaan, nano technology, stock markets, commodity futures, 3g, blackberry all seem so meaningless to me, if as a nation, we cannot feed millions daily.

i was deeply moved by an article by ashish nandy, a social scientist writing for tehelka commenting on indian elections ;

you may read it here : http://www.tehelka.com/story_main41....09the_hour.asp

his last but one para reads and i quote :

"It would be a big mistake if the UPA saw this victory as a mandate for unbridled liberalisation. Some care for the bottom of the society, some belief that the poor should be a priority focus is vital for this society to survive and retain its idea of itself as a humane society. You cannot pay Rs 12,000 for a meal for two people in a five-star hotel and come out and throw Rs 10 to a boy competing with a dog for the garbage and think you have done your duty. Neither can you wait 200 years for the so-called trickle down effect that never comes."

anything that compromises the hard built social capital is something we should shun at this moment.

i think there are so many worthy hindu causes that we may take up than trying to alter history to suit our preferences.

hari hara sudanay sharanam..sharanam...one big hug from me for this piece you have penned,my dear.tears trickled when i visualised so many vivid memories of poverty,refugees from bangla-desh,refugess from kashmir,refugees from sri-lanka and our indian society rejects of buasty or cheries...i do not know how our political leaders even sleep or get sleep...look at the colosal amount of trillions of dollars of money parked in swiss banks..you are so right.Whenever i used to come out of a temple,outside,people sitting with a begging bowl,ammma thayae pitcha podu....i used donate.but some of my kazhagam friends told me to stop it,as it was a begging proffession to earn money!!!!so,you do not really know,who is truthful or cheating you.people act,as if they are poor.manidhabamanam,is on the downward trajectory.however,i am seeing poverty here in a different light together.

sb
 
Shri Hari, am not sure as to who you are directing your reply, but I sense that some of it may have to do with my post and so:

is history the record of events that happened or is history the record of events that we like or suits our preferences.
We are on the track now... how are events recorded? is there any malicious will behind the facts portrayed? who was the perpetuator of the action? Are the documented facts reliable and is it free from ambiguity? could be some of the questions that can be placed to evaluate any piece of history... Claiming and repeating a piece of lie becomes a perceived fact in due course of time - goebbelsian lies.

why are we not peeved about these symbols (whether or not they have been built on razed temples) which proclaim our submission to the british rule ?
at least they were not tramples of existing edifices... why would you want to pursue this line of argument, when clearly, the core is different? There is no parallel which can be drawn out of superimposed structures and independent constructs except for the fact that they are built by invaders...

you seem to think that the act of redeeming the hindu temples can be divested from efforts to improve the plight of the poor ; in my view it cannot be delinked.

for every stride that we take in improving deliverance to the poor, fissures in the society pulls us back.
Sir, this is nothing compared to the corruption we are drowned in... That when, undone is itself a miracle medicine to the poor. Why do you overlook this?

Why should the muslim think that it is a fissure when research should clearly prove the case? We are on our rear here in assuming a muslim backlash even if the truth were shown. Are we being cowards here?

Let us not triviliase this issue by citing others... this is as important to us as are the others. Parellel development can be done. If this should create unrest, we should have the sense to prevail and not just peeve away from the truth, whatever it may be.

Skeletons in the closet are more dangerous than animals roaming free.
 
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