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Gotra in case of a Foreign-Brahmin marriage :s ?

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rakkucamy

Member
hehe
hey bala

i know, i didnt intend it to be so long. but i had to collect my thoughts after reading the forum-purana you and rakesh have composed :p and i felt i had to write a purana of my own to fully opine. thanks for reading though :p Just felt i need to encourage the boy.

oM tat sat brahmArpaNamastu
 

happyhindu

Well-known member
Sengupta et al and many others have shown the existence of all sorts of dravidian and indo-european Y-chromosome haplotypes indicating possible adoption, conversion.
Could you please clarify what do you mean by "dravidian y-chromosome haplotypes" and "indo-european y-chromosome haplotypes"? And how on earth do they indicate any possible adoption and conversion?
 
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s007bala

Guest
dravidian,aryan,indo-european,american,mexican..etc are just geographical indicators.

sb
 

rakkucamy

Member
Could you please clarify what do you mean by "dravidian y-chromosome haplotypes" and "indo-european y-chromosome haplotypes"? And how on earth do they indicate any possible adoption and conversion?
hey happyhindu, sorry for the late reply. I mean to erase this whole notion of priveleged priesthood which we have and the whole concept of gotram being an infallible line of decent right to the rishis. You are free to look up some of the literature online or even in wiki, which have details on haplotypic markers which indicate to various geographical sources. As Vivekananda himself says, our religion has been missionary at some time. By Dravidian haplotypes among Tamil Brahmins I mean, those haplotypes not found in the north, and found in other non-brahmin castes. I hope your retort was merely directed at my inelaboration of "Dravidian and indo-european haplotypes in the Y-chromosome" and not at the indication of possibility of adoption and conversion.
 

rakkucamy

Member
Could you please clarify what do you mean by "dravidian y-chromosome haplotypes" and "indo-european y-chromosome haplotypes"? And how on earth do they indicate any possible adoption and conversion?
I am in complete agreement happyhindu when you say that such results break up the unity of india also, leading to some brahmin-bashing. But that was not the spirit of my bringing up the haplotype topic. Statistically this data shows the distribution of certain haplotypic markers across the continent. So when you say a majority of Kashmiri pandits have their haplotypic ancestor in TUrkmenistan, there's more reason to believe than to disbelieve that there was some significant population who were taken under their wing. And keep in mind, I did not use the word Aryan, as I dont like the way the word Arya is being used about so losely to declare white or caucassian supremacy. That is racial and is wrong. My indication was only at emracing our roots. As in the Brahmapurana, where it clearly says that anyone desirous of knowledge is a Brahmana. It is time we allowed people who are truly noble and who have the ability to change our system, the interest to learn the vedas so on and so forth, to join our wing. That's all. I think you are mistaking me for some supremacist who throws genetic garble to divide our nation into north south east west based on haplotypes and chromosomal data. I hope I have cleared my views.
 

happyhindu

Well-known member
Dear Rakkucamy,

Thankyou for your reply :) No, had not mistaken you for anything. Just that whenever i ask pucca dravidians to provide a 'genetic definition of a dravidian', they sortof are unable to do that, because there is no such thing as an aryan or dravidian genetically (they are just language groups and cultures). No matter what any result is, none of us stop being indian. Actually one can find results in quite a few different ways. People who choose love and unity will do it despite any religion, language, results, etc. :happy:
 
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s007bala

Guest
AIT and DIT are Bull Sh**

No support from genetics for Aryan invasion theory Geneticist Dr. Gyaneshwer Chaubey

Common genetic traits - Aryan theory demolished
BY KUMAR CHELLAPPAN (Deccan Chronicle, 2 March 2009)


An internationalteam of genetic scientists has ruled out the theory of Aryan invasion of the Indian sub-continent.
The age old argument that there was an Aryan invasion of the sub-continent is simply bunkum.
Scientific studies prove that there is no such thing as Aryan Indian or Dravidian Indian. Genetic high resolution studies carried out by us prove that all Indians are derived from same grandgrand parents who arrived here 60,000-70,000 years ago from Africa,Dr Gyaneshwer Chaubey, a scientist of the team, told Deccan Chronicle.
Dr Chaubey, a member of the scientific community at the Instituteof Molecular an d Cell Biology, University of Tartu, Estonia, said the research also proved that all Indians had common genetic traits irrespective of the regions to which they belonged.
“It took us four years to complete the study and we analysed 12,200 samples to reach this conclusion,said Dr Chaubey.
Genetic studies help us to establish relations between populations. We focussed on the paternal (Y chromosomes) and maternal DNA genealogies. The data which we generated does not support any major influx to the subcontinent other than the earlier arrival of migrants from Africa,he said.
The present day caste/creed/religion is of indigenous origin,said Dr Chaubey.
http://www.dc-epaper.com/DC/DCC/2009/03/02/ArticleHtmls/02_03_2009_001_020.shtml?Mode=0#

My 2 cents.If the population of TN is subjected to Haplo groupings research,they will find commonality in a major way with Africans.Basically we Tamils are negroes,and due to mutations sometimes,the changes are markedly different in appearance.

sb
 

Ramacchandran

Active member
Brahmins were/ are every where from North Pole to South Pole! So I think there is no necessity in the place of Birth and residence.
 

pbkhema

Active member
The DNA and chromsome trials go to the origin of the humans and subsequent movement
.In all the ancient civilisations the priestly class were there.The origianl vedic people once they settled down their law
gfivers gave effect tothe Varnas. The priestly classes were the Brahmins
Even some Kshatriyas and Viasyas have gotra
According to the ancient Smritis in the case of a marraige between two Varnas if the father belongs to the higher Varna the progeny is one step lower in the Varna than the father.There were numerous intervarnas I am not giving the details now.
But generally in modern times the child adopts the Goyra of the father
 
Gotra

Well Rema was that a general statement>>. looking at ur post it looks like that.... sorry to say it didn't add any value to the whole discussion that was there on that purticular topic on that thread.....

:)

thank you
rakesh
 
If some on is interested in realizing Brahman its not necessary for him to have upanayanam, A boy of 11 or 13 years may not have any understanding of what real spirituality means.. so i don't think he needs to get an upanayanam because thats not his custom as well.. since he is a foreign boy... he needs to follow his customs,............ it looks like his parents want upanayanam than him... they want him to be brought up in their culture...... but that does not have anything to do with spirituality... so for all those people who are talking about human values and discarding caste differences I appreciate their whole heartedness but one question if thats your thinking that all is god and god is all?>> do u need an upanayanam to realise god>>>>> its always said for the aviveki the sastras are a burden.... and also remember even in gita krishna has said determine the value of the seeker and then donate to him.. so dont mix our customs with spirituality. they are both in their own worlds. Brahma sutram or Poonool gives u the right for rituals which are according to the vedas proposed for the dwijas and also the right to learn vedas, now regarding kali yuga its not a product ofsome orthodox thinking, its been predicted some 5000 years ago, read bhavishya purana for the purpose. read learn and then criticize otherwise dont ever thinking of criticizing without any authority.. its already said in bhavishya purana, by the end of the 1st pada of kali yuga, ie, 25000 years, there will not be even sri krishna namam in earth, everything will be mlecha we are already seeing the start of it, whether you like it or not we are fast becoming an extinct race, our forefathers protected our culture by caste and limiting marriages inside the community, i am grateful to my forefathers because due to my birth in their clan i got the right to brahma vidya gayathri and authority on rituals, if they had not preserved the culture by the caste method it would have been over.. long before there would have been nothing left....
 

palindrome

Active member
If some on is interested in realizing Brahman its not necessary for him to have upanayanam, A boy of 11 or 13 years may not have any understanding of what real spirituality means.. so i don't think he needs to get an upanayanam because thats not his custom as well.. since he is a foreign boy... he needs to follow his customs,............ it looks like his parents want upanayanam than him... they want him to be brought up in their culture...... but that does not have anything to do with spirituality... so for all those people who are talking about human values and discarding caste differences I appreciate their whole heartedness but one question if thats your thinking that all is god and god is all?>> do u need an upanayanam to realise god>>>>> its always said for the aviveki the sastras are a burden.... and also remember even in gita krishna has said determine the value of the seeker and then donate to him.. so dont mix our customs with spirituality. they are both in their own worlds. Brahma sutram or Poonool gives u the right for rituals which are according to the vedas proposed for the dwijas and also the right to learn vedas, now regarding kali yuga its not a product ofsome orthodox thinking, its been predicted some 5000 years ago, read bhavishya purana for the purpose. read learn and then criticize otherwise dont ever thinking of criticizing without any authority.. its already said in bhavishya purana, by the end of the 1st pada of kali yuga, ie, 25000 years, there will not be even sri krishna namam in earth, everything will be mlecha we are already seeing the start of it, whether you like it or not we are fast becoming an extinct race, our forefathers protected our culture by caste and limiting marriages inside the community, i am grateful to my forefathers because due to my birth in their clan i got the right to brahma vidya gayathri and authority on rituals, if they had not preserved the culture by the caste method it would have been over.. long before there would have been nothing left....
am not sure i really understood this post, its very muddled up for me....however, regarding the underlined sentence :

it wud be very difficult to define who is mlechha currently. When Manu wrote his laws (somewhere around 2BC to 3AD ?), he was designating those ppl who lived to the far northwest of india as mlechhas. Maybe he was writing those laws during the kushan times (?) (protectionism or society-organization after intermingling ??)...

During the times of the kushan, gupta, pala periods, there was a heavy intermingling with those very mlechhas...population movement patterns are supposed to be highly chaotic during this time period, both from northwest and northeast affecting those in central india and this perhaps subsequently affected those in the lower reaches of the country.

The framework of present day castes started only around 3ad to 5ad, around the time of the intermingling or after it....if you were to try and see which are the current communities currently showing a high degree of influx of northwest population, you are gonna be in for some real surprise....and ofcourse this is not restricted to select communities alone.. and its one reason why strict adherence to scriptures may possibly not work in this kaliyuga...

there is another poster in this thread who mentioned something abt dravidian haplotypes being found among tambrams and non-bramins but not found in north-india...i wish he cud also tell which are those so-called dravidian haplotypes..so far there is no haplogroup that can be found only in one caste or select castes or select regions, only the rate at which it is found may be higher or lower; and enuf work has been done in terms of mapping several castes and tribes..
 
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s007bala

Guest
it wud be very difficult to define who is mlechha currently. When Manu wrote his laws (somewhere around 2BC to 3AD ?), he was designating those ppl who lived to the far northwest of india as mlechhas. Maybe he was writing those laws during the kushan times (?) (protectionism or society-organization after intermingling ??)...
my theory is,prior to the period mentioned,it was bharatham map or geographical influence of many smaller kings controlled by a chakravarthi.due to repeated wars,the territory of bharatham got relegated,as the new religions wanted independence from our sanathana dharma fold.otherwise all religions that have emerged are from bharatham,therefore fulfilling lord krishnas prohesy to shri arjuna.

in marriages,especially if one is foreign born now or living in foreign countries,practicing sanathana dharma aka hinduism=its extremely to ask children to adapt our cultural practices.but there is lots of meaning and wiseness if children listen to parents and try to marry within brahmana fold.then,the definition of brahmana is different .its not jathi brahmana but one who is able to understand and experiance the brahmandam of the brahman,which could be nirgunam or sagunam.

sb
 

pbkhema

Active member
Mlechha referred to any one not
a original resident in in Bharatha Varsha.
In particulat it referred to people outside the perview of the then people in Bharatha Varsha like the Persians Greeks etc'
Later texts include persons born out of the prescribed rules like a son of a Brahmin Widow through a Sudra as mlechha.I have read the text (translation) But I am not able to lay my hands on it.
Foreign Born is different from a foreign father or mother for Gotra ourposes.
 
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s007bala

Guest
re

Mlechha referred to any one not
a original resident in in Bharatha Varsha.
In particulat it referred to people outside the perview of the then people in Bharatha Varsha like the Persians Greeks etc'
Later texts include persons born out of the prescribed rules like a son of a Brahmin Widow through a Sudra as mlechha.I have read the text (translation) But I am not able to lay my hands on it.
Foreign Born is different from a foreign father or mother for Gotra ourposes.
mlechas means foreigner,-alien, to the practices of his/her locality.the locality of bharathams extended far and wide.to describe bharatham as the present map and quote scriptures millions of years old,is beyond me.

there is nothing foreign about father or mother,as its a man and woman,who copulate and produce an offspring.its humanity which thinks no end of itself thinking it only has the ability to be intelligent and thereby predate on other life forms.its this arrogant attitude of humanity which is causing distress amongst human,as its a relative factor amongst us.

gothra has original father and a original mother.becoz of Y-chromosomes,the man has the distinction of determining the sex of the child,thereby creating a unique pattern.

but there are matrilineal society,which empowers the lineages of women too.

these are all human made theories which are practicesd.as far as god is concerned,he/she wants us to raise above,and merge in the antaratma.

genes carry certain memory codes passed thru father,but its free will which 73% available which determines ones destiny.

sb
 

seeence

Member
Me a Bengali Brahmin....

Me a Bengali Brahmin of Bharadwaj gotra. I've developed very high regard and respect on tradition, culture and rituals of the Tamil Brahmins while researching (PhD) on Indoaryan-ism.
So I'm very much keen to know more about Tamil Brahmins and want to become integral part of the Tamil Brahminic culture and values. I'm interested to know that - is there family (gotra/marriage) connection between Bengali and Tamils? Does orthodox Tamil Brahmin accept the Bengalis for marriage relation? If you have any answer please do write.
Regards
Srikumar Mukherjee
Email [email protected]
Ph# 919470932544

You can visit my blog:
http://indoaryan-existentialism.blogspot.com/
 
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happyhindu

Well-known member
Nice blog sir...

Am reproducing a part that is currently considered controversial due to the aryan invasion theory. I wud love to hear your views on the part reproduced below....in your opinion, do you think that in later times occupations were enfoced on people even if they wanted to move out of it (rigid varna based society)....if yes, why and if not, why? thanks in advance :

Initially people had choosen different contemporary trades freely according to their own testes (biological bent). But cultivating the same trade liberally through generations - they became expert of those specific trades by acquiring the respective characters even bio-culturally (genetically). Thus, in the society - “division of labour according to hereditary instinct” established. Nesfield says - “Occupation is the only factor of this system (caste)”, where as Dezil Ibbison says - “This is not sudden, but a product of long process of evolution, and occupation became heredity.” According to Sree Sree Anukulchandra - “This is not a man made system, but a universal law of division of biological character, which could be found everywhere in the nature.” He termed this system in human society as - “Grouping of society according to biological instinct.” In his view - it was broadly divided into four natures of work, those are - Intellectual, Managerial, Commercial and Physical labour, that found in every society of the world in different forms. In Indoaryan society these natures of classes were defined as ‘Varna division’ - in terms of Bipra (hereditarily Brahmin), Kashtriya, Vaishya and Sudra respectively. In this Indoaryan society ‘to be a Brahmin’ was set as the ‘goal of all’.
 

happyhindu

Well-known member
Am reproducing another part which is very highly controversial. If possible, i request you to not use genetics in the manner that you have stated below (because it can easily be challenged and refuted on various grounds, including genetics):

The scientific evidence of Varnashram system: A report published on one Anthropological and genetic research jointly organized by an Indo-US university team on Indoaryan traditional Varna (caste) division system. The report says that - still the Varna characters are inheriting through DNA for more than past 3000 years. In the ‘hypergamy’ marriage system (marriage between female of lower cultural heredity and male of higher cultural heredity), the ‘caste’ of lower rank female could climb up to higher caste rank. [Source: Human Genome and Indian Caste System; www.genome.org; ‘The Asian Age’, London - 30/04/1998]
and sir, cud you also elaborate on the following (how is the new world social order sought to be formed - will it be based on the varna system as it is supposed to be existing currently, with each person re-invented in a diff role in the same varna or wud you suggest something else ?):

..that intends to form a new world social order by qualitative transformation of each individual. Now all fulfilling ideology “Indoaryan Existentialism” has..
 
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s007bala

Guest
re

Does orthodox Tamil Brahmin accept the Bengalis for marriage relation? If you have any answer please do write.
amaadair shonaar lokair loke nomoshkar...aashun aashun...

tambrahms usually practice marrying with tambrahms..but with children falling in love,evrything is going on...but the majority even today,given a choice will prefer tambrahm...i bliev i did marry kanbrahmn(kannada-brahmin).of course this is jathi=brahmins i am writing about,but not the actual meaning or the concept of brahmana...which is possible in any jathi to attain such spirituality.

even in foreign countries,it will be great,if jathi-brahmins marry amongst jathi brahmins..thereby contniuing the sampradaya of our saptha rishis or traya rishis....


sb
 

seeence

Member
Oh thanks for your reply. Me will love to find good people from Tamil Brahmins, even I could find psychologically compatible life partner form here.....!!! Is it not become really nice?
 
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