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Gotra in case of a Foreign-Brahmin marriage :s ?

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Vanakkam guys

I have a friend who is half German and Half Iyer. They wish to get his upanayanam done. Is it alright (allowed) for the son to get his upanayanam done if his mother's a foreigner? Here the community is a little loose on rules, but just wanted perspectives from the house.

And another question, and this one is just me being curious, if the mother were Brahmin and father were foreigner, and wished to get the Upanayanam done on her Brother's gotram, is that allowed?

THanks in advance
Hi rama As per the Sastras like manusmriti only a marriage between a brahmin man and brahmin woman entitles the son to have upanayanam. This is the the vaidik rule. Only in the tantras I have seen a rule where we can do upanayanam for even non brahmins. Now coming to the question of whether he can have upanayanam or not there is one more way called as tantric upanayanam where he can recieve gayatri, he can chant gayatri and do tantric sandyavandam, but he will not be entitled for any sadrams as the son can do sadram only if he is an "ourasa" which means he has to be born between a brahmin man and brahmin woman.
Brahmin is one,who has the ability,to understand Brahman.Anyone in bhu-loka born,is automatically a candidate.Just as we have training in different fields,for a person to understand brahman concept,also requires,training.That is why Brahmin as a community was encouraged,becoz of saathwic guna vasams.Can all of in bhuloka become a doctor or an engineer or astrologer or......based on ones ability only such a acheivement is possible.

Today,becoz of rules laid down by acharyas of yore,seems conflicting.Only the present acharyas should modify the rules based on the feedback that they receive from qualified people whom they trust.

The greatness of Sanathana Dharma is,as long as ones action produce harmony and well being for majority of people,without breaking any laws of the land or community,people should follow their own conscience and be happy.When a religious leader say like Mahaswamigal says,we should follow.Or follow somene with such high stature of spiritual power.

The only qualification is,ability to understand brahman and follow brahminic way of doing things in life.Anyone can emulate such well intended practice.But then,if all do that,then who will follow Kshatriya Dharma?Who will follow Vaishya Dharma?Who will follow Shudra Dharma?

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Foregin Brahmin

The varnashrama dharma was enjoined in a society where the rule books were the sastras. So if you want to call yourself as from a brahmin community and do upanyanam according to sastras then follow the same sastras and do the upanayana according for those who are eligible for sastras. So you cannot just do upanayanam according to one part of the sastras and ignore the other part of the same sastra. For people who follow sastra only sastras applicable people other than that can follow tantra method and do upanayanam but not vedic rituals will be applicable for them as vedic rituals are according to the veda sastras for other persons for even sudras there is a provision in tantra sastra but they will always be outside the ambit of brahmin community, as when u mix pure and impure water you get only impure water not pure water and u get pure water ony when u mix pure and pure water. so these things should have been considered before the marriage with a girl of another caste. Its all nice to hear regarding bhramin is a one who has realised brahman but point to be noted people who advocate that themselves are not realised... and thats why they come with all those statements since they cannot follow the sastra they try to get excuses from vedanta, vedanta is for persons who have already lead their life in sadhana and are practising in real life, even a parrot can say aham brahmasmi but the parrot never realises what is brahman, by speaking you do not achieve realisation it requires hardwork which seldom people do.

so there is no provision for the outsiders to get upanayanam according to sastras, only in tantra sastra for the sadhana of gayatri as a goddess there is a provision of doing upanayanam for the sudras but that does not entitle them to be absorbed in the brahmin community neither learn the vedas,
Bhagavan Sathya Sai Baba,has openly advocated to chant the maha mantram,namely Gayathri Mantram to one and all.Is there any 'maika lal' in bhu-loka to stand against,this originator of shastra in the world?

Recently Bhagavan,invited all Jagath Gurus of Vedanta for Yagams in Puttaparthi.Most popular gurus attended,celeberated and blessed the Jagath with Bhagavan!!

Bolo Sai Ram Sathya Sai Ram!

Gayatri Mantram

Well one who accepts Sathya Sai bhabha as his guru may chant according to his instruction others are just not entitled to it because as long as you do not accept him as ur guru u are not entitled to chant according his instruction, i also need to advs the dear Bala to read mantra sastram, I hope he knows that gayatri has dhayna, nyasa, mudra, bija, and finally sapodharam according to mantra sastras, its the same thing mentioned in the below post, u chant mantras according to mantra sastra but ignore or are not aware of the other part of the sastra, consult the adi sankaracharyas book called as prapancha sara tantra and 30th chapter on gayatri,
for more details

As per mantra sastra

Every mantra has a rishi (the one who first saw the mantra in the universe)
chandas (the meter of mantra)

dyana (the bhava of mantra and mantra devata)
nyasa (the purification rituals to be done before chanting the mantra)
sapodhara or keelaka (key to unlock the mantra energy to prevent misuse in kali yuga)

No wonder why even people chant lakhs of gayatri and seldom they attain the energy which is their in the mantra,
because unless they have these things they just cannot unlock the energy in the mantra, its better for them to recite other generic mantras which do not fall under this rules, like hare krishna hare krishna, which is envisged by the rishis for all people, if u want gayatri go to a guru personally and get all this information and then do a proper sadhana otherwise dont say that u are chanting its like a parrot only ................................

the great grammarian in sanskrit yaskan said the donkey which carriies kumkum does not know the value of it for it its just another item

so the same here if u are chanting gayatri follow the proper sastra otherwise do the generic mantras, otherwise you get only papa and reach hell not heaven :)

as per manu

even if a 1000 people tell a lie and one person says the truth the truth is what is accepted not the lie as majority cannot make a lie truth, so always the majority wins just is not aplicable in sastras its only in material world.
This is an interesting table...

Anuloma means in the natural order (union between a elevated caste man and a subordinate class woman) and pratiloma is its reverse... varna sankara was forbidden in the early times...

Father + Mother Progeny = known as (Anuloma or Pratiloma type)
Brahman + Kshatriya = ?
Brahman + Vaishya = Ambashta (Anuloma)
Brahman + Shudra = Nishad (Parasava) (Anuloma)
Kshatriya + Brahman = Suta (Pratiloma)
Kshatriya + Vaishya = ?
Kshatriya + Shudra = Ugra (Anuloma)
Vaishya + Brahman = Vaidehaka (Pratiloma)
Vaishyav Kshatriya = Magadha (Pratiloma)
Vaishya + Shudra = Karana (Anuloma)
Shudrav Brahman = Chandala (Pratiloma)
Shudra + Kshatriya = Ksattri (Pratiloma)
Shudra + Vaishya = Ayogava (Pratiloma)


Father + Mother = Progeny Known As
1. Brahman + Ugra = Avrita
2. Brahman + Ambashta = Dhigvana
3. Brahman + Nishada = Kukutaka
4. Shudra + Abhira = Abhira

Father + Mother = Progeny known as
1. Vaideha + Ayogava = Maitreyaka
2. Nishada + Ayogava = Margava (Das)/Kaivarta
3. Nishada + Vaideha = Karavara
4. Vaidehaka + Ambashta = Vena
5. Vaidehakav Karavara = Andhra
6. Vaidehaka + Nishada = Meda
7. Chandala + Vaideha = Pandusopaka
8. Nishada + Vaideha = Ahindaka
9. Chandala + Pukkassa = Sopaka
10. Chandala + Nishada = Antyavasin
11. Kshattari + Ugra = Swapaka

Taken from the site: http://www.ambedkar.org/riddleinhinduism/21B.Riddles in Hinduism PART II.htm

With these type of classification, one could imagine the extent of division that the society must have had then... and the consusions thereof!!!

BTW, what is the veda or the shastra authority which says that a brahmin is by birth???
Gayathri Mantram

Om Bhoor Bhuvasuvaha
Tatsa Vithur Varenyam
Bhargo Devasya Dheemahi
Dhiyo Yona Prachodayaathu.(During the sandya ie twilight zone of Surya Bhagavans luminosity)

The above Sanskritam Shlokam,is very clear,in explaining itself.Only a Brahmana,who has attained the perfection of a amsam of brahman,will be able to explain.Since i quoted Bhagavan Sathya Sai Baba,on this maha mantram


Of course if one browses thru Sathya Sai Speaks,one can always read the magnificient lecture by Bhagavan Sathya Sai Baba.


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But gothram is a kind of lineage depicting tradition... so would it hold good even in cases of anuloma or pratiloma?? I guess not, since this type of naming is also bound by strict tradition... varna sankara cases would not be able to identify with the original brahmin gothras...
Regarding the Brahmin By birth

HI Readers

The anuloma and other table is interesting and is according to manu smritis. In this age when u have a question its advised to consult a guru directly or read the sastras not through internet as sastras are written in sanskrit and any tom and harry has come to a level of bending the sastras in his own way.

Everything in this universe is earned by merit nothing else,

Our sastras are based on karmic law or rebirths so a brahmin is born according to the souls previois birth's merits, even though he may not follow the brahmin rules or lead a spiritual life and may not realise brahman, but the merit he earned in his previous births remain there. This is according to viveka choodamani written by Adi Sankara himself regarding where its written to get human birth itself is a merit of thousands of births.

Now a brahmin becomes pure by his birth itself according to manusmriti
now there are strict rules for a brahmin although i agree in kali yuga its not possible to do all the rules atleast do the gayatri japa daily that itself makes a brahmin pure thats what manu says,

Even if a brahmin has not learned vedas and other things not performing any rituals if he performs simple gayatri japa according to sastras he is of merit and should be respected by others and is worthy of it.

So thats the rule of sastras.

References, manu smriti, parasara smriti other smritis, viveka choodamani
sb, i think you are confusing the intent meant here...

Those who wish to attain the supreme brahman need not worry about gothram or varna... extrapolating this, they would not even differentiate between religions as well...

But for those who wish to adhere to particular traditions, these queries arise... and in such cases, the vedas and shastras would hold good.

There are people of both types - you are mixing the nature of the former with the latter...

The Gothras have been applied to build up communities according to one's veda shakha and has rules as well. There is something called as gothra pravaram. So in the case of outside community marriage, in marriage the gothra the father's gothra stays for the child but thats when in same community marriages outside community marriages cannot produce child of the gothra of the father as the marriage itself would not have been done according to the sastras, there is no kanya dana in these marriages so these marriages does not fall under the ambit of sastras, so where is the question of children produced out of this marriage??
there is no provision in sastras to transfer the gothra.
please read the smritis and check the rules and then we all need to decide ourselves and do marriages outside the community and lose the priviliges which we had, its an individuals choce if u want to follow the sastra do that otherwise do not follow the sastra and do not come back after marriage what sastra's says now, since u dint follow incase of ur marriage ur son lost the privilige of following the same sastras and do gayatri upanayanam and shradha kriyas for u.
I guess we all have a decent level of maturity so as not to come to any conclusion merely by reading internet articles...

My query was directed since we have come to discuss on a public forum (and on a particular topic)... and that very fact implies that we might be ready to share resources... thatz all...

>>BTW, what is the veda or the shastra authority which says that a brahmin is by birth???<<

Such a shastra can never exist,if its done by original Rishis of yore.Lord Krishna addresses this wonderfully in Bhagavth Gita,thanks Sage Vysya Maha Prabhu,that today in bhu-loka,we are savouring,this jewel of shastra.

Common sense,by birth did anyone of us know anything?Society,thru people shaped us.


sb, i think you are confusing the intent meant here...

Those who wish to attain the supreme brahman need not worry about gothram or varna... extrapolating this, they would not even differentiate between religions as well...

But for those who wish to adhere to particular traditions, these queries arise... and in such cases, the vedas and shastras would hold good.

There are people of both types - you are mixing the nature of the former with the latter...


I think what you say is correct seshu.

Common sense,by birth did anyone of us know anything?Society,thru people shaped us.

So how did the first person who was born on this earth identify himself? If at all he did...

There are several lines of thoughts on this... ultimately it is what we choose...

I choose to believe in a brahmin by birth, by actions and by realization...

By birth all of us are born equal.By virtue of the Lord's grace only,our gunas shape up and accordingly we fit into one of the four personality traits namely Brahmana Kshatria Vaishya Shudra.There are people who say,at birth all of us are Shudras ie the ground level.Therefore,we are at the feet.Subsequently,we progress upwards to the head,which was finally determined as Brahmana.Today we call the brain in the head,as the top most organ,which is part and parcel of human anatomy namely face!

The four personality traits is inherent in all of us.As to how we shape ourselves up,owing to many factors,finally determines our character,in those four personalities.

My father was a brilliant sales person.Do i automatically inherit his genius in sales skills?Probably,yes.But instead,i became a brilliant engineer.So,one does not inherit castes.One must be worthy of the requistion,for the particular caste.

Now i should strictly call myslef Shudra,as thats the nature of my work.

When it comes to marriage,there is lots of compromises done.For the King one rule.One rule for the common people.So,brahmins who were advicers to Kings,just wiggled around as per situation of the King.

A small story :-

A Maharaja asked an astrologer to tell something about his future. The astrologer said: “Your highness will live long to see all your sons dead.” The Maharaja was enraged and ordered the astrologer’s arrest and imprisonment. He consulted another astrologer on the same point. This second astrologer said: “Your highness will enjoy a long life and outlive all your family.” The Maharaja was highly pleased and gave him rich presents. Both the astrologers knew the truth, but the latter knew the Maharaja.:dance:

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Brahmin Birth

Dear SB

Let me tell u that Bhagavath Geetha and Bhagavatham themselves comes under the classification of smritis and not sruthi as per the Vedanta rules. If there is an argument between smriti and sruthi all the rishis have said that sruthi should be upheld. Sruthi means vedas.

Regarding the question of which sastra

Brahmano jayamano hi prithivyamidhi jayate
eswara sarvabhoothanam dharma kosasysa guptaye

According to this verse by birth itself brahmin is repsectful and worthy of merit
Manusmriti 1st chapter 99th slokha

and regarding the authority of sruthis
Smriti 2nd chapter 13th sloka

artha kameshwasakthanam dharma jnanam vidhiyathe
dharmam jijnanasa samanam pramanam paramam sruthi

according to this sruthis is the pramanam or the law, its said even if god is against sruthi sruthi is considered not even the god forget about the other scriptures.
because sruthi gives authority to krishna and krishna he himself cannot give authority to sruthi as sruthis is the final authority on all matters,
Puranas like bhagavatham are for the general public interested in brahma jnanam
they are not the final authority on matters as they themselves have said that if they find they are against a sruthi sruthi has to be upheld as sruthi is above everything else.

japyenaiva thu samsidyeth brahmano nathra samsyaha
kuryadanyena va kuryan naimathro bhrahmana uchyathe

even if he does not follow the rituals or does not do anything but he just does the japa of gayatri he is by mere doing the japa becomes eligible for the moksha and thats the authority of gayathri, gayante thrana gayathri, who sings gayathri is taken to rescued by gayathri, one who has got initiated to gayathri and does the japa of other mantras is like digging in ganga a well, he does not see the pereniial ganga flowing beside him.

and thats what makes our community greater than anything else we all got the initiation of gayathri, and if you are in the community you are entitled by birth otherwise u may consult other sastras like tantra sastra and get a mantra capable of making u realise the bhraman from a guru with proper initiation and realise the mantra
Rakesh Bhai

Somehow i feel,we should work for it and earn it ie brahmana.Chumma,becoz dady and mummy is brahmin,so automatically i am brahmin,is old school of thoughts.See,even in the Chidambaram Temple case,thonru thottu wanda wazhipadukalai azhitthu vittargal.There is no meaning for tradition as long as Kazhagams are alive.Koonrodu Kolgiraargal.Look at the courts in India.Its a comedy.If you have the resources,anyone can be bought.LO,now even in International arena,Indian leaders are buffoons.

Rajiv married Soniaji.Rajiv was half parsi and half hindu brahmin.Even in the parsi community,wearing a thread in the hip used to be a practice.So,Sanathana Dharma practices were spread very wide.That is why i feel,ninth avataram should be Abraham.:).So technically Priyanka and Rahul are what then,apart from Indians!


>>So how did the first person who was born on this earth identify himself? If at all he did..<<

S S,i will progressively regress to my first incarnation,and let you know.Untill then Shraddha & Saburi is required from you..khe khe:lie:

Bhramin birth

Good that you want to earn the merit. Follow the japa sadhana thats the sadhana advised for this yuga, since you are already a brahmin follow the gayathri no need of any other guru or mantra, because if u go in search of others you are just wasting time, I have seen the case in my life, as of now I have got initiated to mantras for various other purposes from realised souls, and there is no course for that, i see inthe western society yoga and other sadhnas have courses. i never believe in fee based courses neither those gurus as knowledge can never returned by a fee, its a light and its returned by making sure that light is not turned off.
Do the gayatri japa of thousand daily that itself will make u qualify to reach the bhramam and that is the best sadhna for any brahmin community member. regarding the caste or priyanka and rahul they are indians but cannot be said to even now unde the ambit of our so called sanathana dharma as they sastras are for people who follow it and people who do not follow this just does not comes under the same sastras, they can be under hinduism but for them there are no rituals according to the vaidika dharma itself, not even the shradha ritual , they cannot be prescribed any dharma because they do not fall under any of the sastra rules, they can attain realization for that there are thousand of ways, even the great Budha who never said a single word about god reached brahmatwam, so even an athiest and a scientist can reach, but we cannot include them in our community, they are great in their own things but we cannot follow them niether their ideas as they do not have sruthi as their pramanam or law.
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