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Gotra in case of a Foreign-Brahmin marriage :s ?

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rama_iyer

Member
Vanakkam guys

I have a friend who is half German and Half Iyer. They wish to get his upanayanam done. Is it alright (allowed) for the son to get his upanayanam done if his mother's a foreigner? Here the community is a little loose on rules, but just wanted perspectives from the house.

And another question, and this one is just me being curious, if the mother were Brahmin and father were foreigner, and wished to get the Upanayanam done on her Brother's gotram, is that allowed?


THanks in advance
Rama
 
Hi rama As per the Sastras like manusmriti only a marriage between a brahmin man and brahmin woman entitles the son to have upanayanam. This is the the vaidik rule. Only in the tantras I have seen a rule where we can do upanayanam for even non brahmins. Now coming to the question of whether he can have upanayanam or not there is one more way called as tantric upanayanam where he can recieve gayatri, he can chant gayatri and do tantric sandyavandam, but he will not be entitled for any sadrams as the son can do sadram only if he is an "ourasa" which means he has to be born between a brahmin man and brahmin woman.
 
S

s007bala

Guest
Brahmin is one,who has the ability,to understand Brahman.Anyone in bhu-loka born,is automatically a candidate.Just as we have training in different fields,for a person to understand brahman concept,also requires,training.That is why Brahmin as a community was encouraged,becoz of saathwic guna vasams.Can all of in bhuloka become a doctor or an engineer or astrologer or......based on ones ability only such a acheivement is possible.

Today,becoz of rules laid down by acharyas of yore,seems conflicting.Only the present acharyas should modify the rules based on the feedback that they receive from qualified people whom they trust.

The greatness of Sanathana Dharma is,as long as ones action produce harmony and well being for majority of people,without breaking any laws of the land or community,people should follow their own conscience and be happy.When a religious leader say like Mahaswamigal says,we should follow.Or follow somene with such high stature of spiritual power.

The only qualification is,ability to understand brahman and follow brahminic way of doing things in life.Anyone can emulate such well intended practice.But then,if all do that,then who will follow Kshatriya Dharma?Who will follow Vaishya Dharma?Who will follow Shudra Dharma?

sb
 
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Nacchinarkiniyan

Well-known member
Just now saw the date. One year old query. Will post later if the member still needs the information.
 
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Foregin Brahmin

The varnashrama dharma was enjoined in a society where the rule books were the sastras. So if you want to call yourself as from a brahmin community and do upanyanam according to sastras then follow the same sastras and do the upanayana according for those who are eligible for sastras. So you cannot just do upanayanam according to one part of the sastras and ignore the other part of the same sastra. For people who follow sastra only sastras applicable people other than that can follow tantra method and do upanayanam but not vedic rituals will be applicable for them as vedic rituals are according to the veda sastras for other persons for even sudras there is a provision in tantra sastra but they will always be outside the ambit of brahmin community, as when u mix pure and impure water you get only impure water not pure water and u get pure water ony when u mix pure and pure water. so these things should have been considered before the marriage with a girl of another caste. Its all nice to hear regarding bhramin is a one who has realised brahman but point to be noted people who advocate that themselves are not realised... and thats why they come with all those statements since they cannot follow the sastra they try to get excuses from vedanta, vedanta is for persons who have already lead their life in sadhana and are practising in real life, even a parrot can say aham brahmasmi but the parrot never realises what is brahman, by speaking you do not achieve realisation it requires hardwork which seldom people do.

so there is no provision for the outsiders to get upanayanam according to sastras, only in tantra sastra for the sadhana of gayatri as a goddess there is a provision of doing upanayanam for the sudras but that does not entitle them to be absorbed in the brahmin community neither learn the vedas,
 
S

s007bala

Guest
Bhagavan Sathya Sai Baba,has openly advocated to chant the maha mantram,namely Gayathri Mantram to one and all.Is there any 'maika lal' in bhu-loka to stand against,this originator of shastra in the world?

Recently Bhagavan,invited all Jagath Gurus of Vedanta for Yagams in Puttaparthi.Most popular gurus attended,celeberated and blessed the Jagath with Bhagavan!!

Bolo Sai Ram Sathya Sai Ram!

sb
 
Gayatri Mantram

Well one who accepts Sathya Sai bhabha as his guru may chant according to his instruction others are just not entitled to it because as long as you do not accept him as ur guru u are not entitled to chant according his instruction, i also need to advs the dear Bala to read mantra sastram, I hope he knows that gayatri has dhayna, nyasa, mudra, bija, and finally sapodharam according to mantra sastras, its the same thing mentioned in the below post, u chant mantras according to mantra sastra but ignore or are not aware of the other part of the sastra, consult the adi sankaracharyas book called as prapancha sara tantra and 30th chapter on gayatri,
for more details


As per mantra sastra

Every mantra has a rishi (the one who first saw the mantra in the universe)
chandas (the meter of mantra)

dyana (the bhava of mantra and mantra devata)
nyasa (the purification rituals to be done before chanting the mantra)
sapodhara or keelaka (key to unlock the mantra energy to prevent misuse in kali yuga)

No wonder why even people chant lakhs of gayatri and seldom they attain the energy which is their in the mantra,
because unless they have these things they just cannot unlock the energy in the mantra, its better for them to recite other generic mantras which do not fall under this rules, like hare krishna hare krishna, which is envisged by the rishis for all people, if u want gayatri go to a guru personally and get all this information and then do a proper sadhana otherwise dont say that u are chanting its like a parrot only ................................

the great grammarian in sanskrit yaskan said the donkey which carriies kumkum does not know the value of it for it its just another item

so the same here if u are chanting gayatri follow the proper sastra otherwise do the generic mantras, otherwise you get only papa and reach hell not heaven :)

as per manu

even if a 1000 people tell a lie and one person says the truth the truth is what is accepted not the lie as majority cannot make a lie truth, so always the majority wins just is not aplicable in sastras its only in material world.
 

Seshadri Subramaniam

Well-known member
This is an interesting table...

Anuloma means in the natural order (union between a elevated caste man and a subordinate class woman) and pratiloma is its reverse... varna sankara was forbidden in the early times...

Father + Mother Progeny = known as (Anuloma or Pratiloma type)
Brahman + Kshatriya = ?
Brahman + Vaishya = Ambashta (Anuloma)
Brahman + Shudra = Nishad (Parasava) (Anuloma)
Kshatriya + Brahman = Suta (Pratiloma)
Kshatriya + Vaishya = ?
Kshatriya + Shudra = Ugra (Anuloma)
Vaishya + Brahman = Vaidehaka (Pratiloma)
Vaishyav Kshatriya = Magadha (Pratiloma)
Vaishya + Shudra = Karana (Anuloma)
Shudrav Brahman = Chandala (Pratiloma)
Shudra + Kshatriya = Ksattri (Pratiloma)
Shudra + Vaishya = Ayogava (Pratiloma)

PROGENY OF ARYAN CASTES WITH ANULOMA-PRATILOMA CASTES

Father + Mother = Progeny Known As
1. Brahman + Ugra = Avrita
2. Brahman + Ambashta = Dhigvana
3. Brahman + Nishada = Kukutaka
4. Shudra + Abhira = Abhira

PROGENY OF MIXED MARRIAGES BETWEEN ANULOMA AND PRATILOMA CASTES
Father + Mother = Progeny known as
1. Vaideha + Ayogava = Maitreyaka
2. Nishada + Ayogava = Margava (Das)/Kaivarta
3. Nishada + Vaideha = Karavara
4. Vaidehaka + Ambashta = Vena
5. Vaidehakav Karavara = Andhra
6. Vaidehaka + Nishada = Meda
7. Chandala + Vaideha = Pandusopaka
8. Nishada + Vaideha = Ahindaka
9. Chandala + Pukkassa = Sopaka
10. Chandala + Nishada = Antyavasin
11. Kshattari + Ugra = Swapaka

Taken from the site: http://www.ambedkar.org/riddleinhinduism/21B.Riddles in Hinduism PART II.htm

With these type of classification, one could imagine the extent of division that the society must have had then... and the consusions thereof!!!

BTW, what is the veda or the shastra authority which says that a brahmin is by birth???
 
S

s007bala

Guest
Gayathri Mantram

Om Bhoor Bhuvasuvaha
Tatsa Vithur Varenyam
Bhargo Devasya Dheemahi
Dhiyo Yona Prachodayaathu.(During the sandya ie twilight zone of Surya Bhagavans luminosity)

The above Sanskritam Shlokam,is very clear,in explaining itself.Only a Brahmana,who has attained the perfection of a amsam of brahman,will be able to explain.Since i quoted Bhagavan Sathya Sai Baba,on this maha mantram

http://media.radiosai.org/Journals/Vol_04/01FEB06/musings-from-prashanthi-nilayam.htm

Of course if one browses thru Sathya Sai Speaks,one can always read the magnificient lecture by Bhagavan Sathya Sai Baba.

http://www.sathyasai.org/devotion/prayers/gayatri.html

sb
 
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Seshadri Subramaniam

Well-known member
But gothram is a kind of lineage depicting tradition... so would it hold good even in cases of anuloma or pratiloma?? I guess not, since this type of naming is also bound by strict tradition... varna sankara cases would not be able to identify with the original brahmin gothras...
 
Regarding the Brahmin By birth

HI Readers

The anuloma and other table is interesting and is according to manu smritis. In this age when u have a question its advised to consult a guru directly or read the sastras not through internet as sastras are written in sanskrit and any tom and harry has come to a level of bending the sastras in his own way.

Everything in this universe is earned by merit nothing else,

Our sastras are based on karmic law or rebirths so a brahmin is born according to the souls previois birth's merits, even though he may not follow the brahmin rules or lead a spiritual life and may not realise brahman, but the merit he earned in his previous births remain there. This is according to viveka choodamani written by Adi Sankara himself regarding where its written to get human birth itself is a merit of thousands of births.

Now a brahmin becomes pure by his birth itself according to manusmriti
now there are strict rules for a brahmin although i agree in kali yuga its not possible to do all the rules atleast do the gayatri japa daily that itself makes a brahmin pure thats what manu says,

Even if a brahmin has not learned vedas and other things not performing any rituals if he performs simple gayatri japa according to sastras he is of merit and should be respected by others and is worthy of it.

So thats the rule of sastras.

References, manu smriti, parasara smriti other smritis, viveka choodamani
 

Seshadri Subramaniam

Well-known member
sb, i think you are confusing the intent meant here...

Those who wish to attain the supreme brahman need not worry about gothram or varna... extrapolating this, they would not even differentiate between religions as well...

But for those who wish to adhere to particular traditions, these queries arise... and in such cases, the vedas and shastras would hold good.

There are people of both types - you are mixing the nature of the former with the latter...

Regards
 
The Gothras have been applied to build up communities according to one's veda shakha and has rules as well. There is something called as gothra pravaram. So in the case of outside community marriage, in marriage the gothra the father's gothra stays for the child but thats when in same community marriages outside community marriages cannot produce child of the gothra of the father as the marriage itself would not have been done according to the sastras, there is no kanya dana in these marriages so these marriages does not fall under the ambit of sastras, so where is the question of children produced out of this marriage??
there is no provision in sastras to transfer the gothra.
please read the smritis and check the rules and then we all need to decide ourselves and do marriages outside the community and lose the priviliges which we had, its an individuals choce if u want to follow the sastra do that otherwise do not follow the sastra and do not come back after marriage what sastra's says now, since u dint follow incase of ur marriage ur son lost the privilige of following the same sastras and do gayatri upanayanam and shradha kriyas for u.
 

Seshadri Subramaniam

Well-known member
I guess we all have a decent level of maturity so as not to come to any conclusion merely by reading internet articles...

My query was directed since we have come to discuss on a public forum (and on a particular topic)... and that very fact implies that we might be ready to share resources... thatz all...
 
S

s007bala

Guest
S S

>>BTW, what is the veda or the shastra authority which says that a brahmin is by birth???<<

Such a shastra can never exist,if its done by original Rishis of yore.Lord Krishna addresses this wonderfully in Bhagavth Gita,thanks Sage Vysya Maha Prabhu,that today in bhu-loka,we are savouring,this jewel of shastra.

Common sense,by birth did anyone of us know anything?Society,thru people shaped us.

sb
 
S

s007bala

Guest
re

sb, i think you are confusing the intent meant here...

Those who wish to attain the supreme brahman need not worry about gothram or varna... extrapolating this, they would not even differentiate between religions as well...

But for those who wish to adhere to particular traditions, these queries arise... and in such cases, the vedas and shastras would hold good.

There are people of both types - you are mixing the nature of the former with the latter...

Regards
I think what you say is correct seshu.

sb
 

Seshadri Subramaniam

Well-known member
Common sense,by birth did anyone of us know anything?Society,thru people shaped us.
So how did the first person who was born on this earth identify himself? If at all he did...

There are several lines of thoughts on this... ultimately it is what we choose...

I choose to believe in a brahmin by birth, by actions and by realization...
 
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