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Gotra in case of a Foreign-Brahmin marriage :s ?

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s007bala

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By birth all of us are born equal.By virtue of the Lord's grace only,our gunas shape up and accordingly we fit into one of the four personality traits namely Brahmana Kshatria Vaishya Shudra.There are people who say,at birth all of us are Shudras ie the ground level.Therefore,we are at the feet.Subsequently,we progress upwards to the head,which was finally determined as Brahmana.Today we call the brain in the head,as the top most organ,which is part and parcel of human anatomy namely face!

The four personality traits is inherent in all of us.As to how we shape ourselves up,owing to many factors,finally determines our character,in those four personalities.

My father was a brilliant sales person.Do i automatically inherit his genius in sales skills?Probably,yes.But instead,i became a brilliant engineer.So,one does not inherit castes.One must be worthy of the requistion,for the particular caste.

Now i should strictly call myslef Shudra,as thats the nature of my work.

When it comes to marriage,there is lots of compromises done.For the King one rule.One rule for the common people.So,brahmins who were advicers to Kings,just wiggled around as per situation of the King.

A small story :-

A Maharaja asked an astrologer to tell something about his future. The astrologer said: “Your highness will live long to see all your sons dead.” The Maharaja was enraged and ordered the astrologer’s arrest and imprisonment. He consulted another astrologer on the same point. This second astrologer said: “Your highness will enjoy a long life and outlive all your family.” The Maharaja was highly pleased and gave him rich presents. Both the astrologers knew the truth, but the latter knew the Maharaja.:dance:




sb
 
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Brahmin Birth

Dear SB

Let me tell u that Bhagavath Geetha and Bhagavatham themselves comes under the classification of smritis and not sruthi as per the Vedanta rules. If there is an argument between smriti and sruthi all the rishis have said that sruthi should be upheld. Sruthi means vedas.

Regarding the question of which sastra

Brahmano jayamano hi prithivyamidhi jayate
eswara sarvabhoothanam dharma kosasysa guptaye

According to this verse by birth itself brahmin is repsectful and worthy of merit
Manusmriti 1st chapter 99th slokha

and regarding the authority of sruthis
Smriti 2nd chapter 13th sloka

artha kameshwasakthanam dharma jnanam vidhiyathe
dharmam jijnanasa samanam pramanam paramam sruthi

according to this sruthis is the pramanam or the law, its said even if god is against sruthi sruthi is considered not even the god forget about the other scriptures.
because sruthi gives authority to krishna and krishna he himself cannot give authority to sruthi as sruthis is the final authority on all matters,
Puranas like bhagavatham are for the general public interested in brahma jnanam
they are not the final authority on matters as they themselves have said that if they find they are against a sruthi sruthi has to be upheld as sruthi is above everything else.

japyenaiva thu samsidyeth brahmano nathra samsyaha
kuryadanyena va kuryan naimathro bhrahmana uchyathe

even if he does not follow the rituals or does not do anything but he just does the japa of gayatri he is by mere doing the japa becomes eligible for the moksha and thats the authority of gayathri, gayante thrana gayathri, who sings gayathri is taken to rescued by gayathri, one who has got initiated to gayathri and does the japa of other mantras is like digging in ganga a well, he does not see the pereniial ganga flowing beside him.

and thats what makes our community greater than anything else we all got the initiation of gayathri, and if you are in the community you are entitled by birth otherwise u may consult other sastras like tantra sastra and get a mantra capable of making u realise the bhraman from a guru with proper initiation and realise the mantra
 
S

s007bala

Guest
Rakesh Bhai

Somehow i feel,we should work for it and earn it ie brahmana.Chumma,becoz dady and mummy is brahmin,so automatically i am brahmin,is old school of thoughts.See,even in the Chidambaram Temple case,thonru thottu wanda wazhipadukalai azhitthu vittargal.There is no meaning for tradition as long as Kazhagams are alive.Koonrodu Kolgiraargal.Look at the courts in India.Its a comedy.If you have the resources,anyone can be bought.LO,now even in International arena,Indian leaders are buffoons.

Rajiv married Soniaji.Rajiv was half parsi and half hindu brahmin.Even in the parsi community,wearing a thread in the hip used to be a practice.So,Sanathana Dharma practices were spread very wide.That is why i feel,ninth avataram should be Abraham.:).So technically Priyanka and Rahul are what then,apart from Indians!

sb
 
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s007bala

Guest
re

>>So how did the first person who was born on this earth identify himself? If at all he did..<<

S S,i will progressively regress to my first incarnation,and let you know.Untill then Shraddha & Saburi is required from you..khe khe:lie:

sb
 
Bhramin birth

Good that you want to earn the merit. Follow the japa sadhana thats the sadhana advised for this yuga, since you are already a brahmin follow the gayathri no need of any other guru or mantra, because if u go in search of others you are just wasting time, I have seen the case in my life, as of now I have got initiated to mantras for various other purposes from realised souls, and there is no course for that, i see inthe western society yoga and other sadhnas have courses. i never believe in fee based courses neither those gurus as knowledge can never returned by a fee, its a light and its returned by making sure that light is not turned off.
Do the gayatri japa of thousand daily that itself will make u qualify to reach the bhramam and that is the best sadhna for any brahmin community member. regarding the caste or priyanka and rahul they are indians but cannot be said to even now unde the ambit of our so called sanathana dharma as they sastras are for people who follow it and people who do not follow this just does not comes under the same sastras, they can be under hinduism but for them there are no rituals according to the vaidika dharma itself, not even the shradha ritual , they cannot be prescribed any dharma because they do not fall under any of the sastra rules, they can attain realization for that there are thousand of ways, even the great Budha who never said a single word about god reached brahmatwam, so even an athiest and a scientist can reach, but we cannot include them in our community, they are great in their own things but we cannot follow them niether their ideas as they do not have sruthi as their pramanam or law.
 
regarding the first human

its like the question the egg or hen became to existence first..

I would say the hen which was produced not out of a egg.

for logical questions there are logical answers but for illogical questions there are no logical answers
another question by common people
did day or night appear first
i would say a night which was never followed or happend after a day they might ask how is that possible a night which was not followed by a day
i would say for ur illogical question that is the best illogical answer.
this was answer of the same question asked by great alexander to a great sage
you are asking a question of how this universe got created
dear let me tell u the answer of that can be obtained only by realising the universe itslef the absolute brahman and how can i answer that in words the one which is even above the mind, intellect and senses..
isn't ur question itself illogical? as logic can be reach where the mind and intellect reaches something beyond that where can my logic reach??
 
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s007bala

Guest
Rakesh,what you have written is too good.

>>If there is an argument between smriti and sruthi all the rishis have said that sruthi should be upheld.<<

Now Sruthi,as per our tradition,the Rishis saw the sound waves apart from hearing it.What we hear we say hearsay.But i do not know any english word for drasthas,as how the Vedas were delievered to Rishis.Interesting isn't it!Now that is why Chandas were done to remember,i think.:)

sb
 
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s007bala

Guest
>>did day or night appear first<<

As per Rig Vedam,there is no sun rise nor sunset.Astronomically this is accurate.As,Surya Bhagavan,is ever luminous,its only bhu-loka,which is orbiting on its axis and going around the Surya Bhagavan.But yet our Panchangam,our Jyotisham,take the apparent view,to construct bhugola shastram.Thats Maya.Sarvam Brahman Mayam!

So,for marriage,imho,one man,one woman and plenty of heartfelt blessings.Is all required with grace of bhagavan.

sb
 
Rishis and Mantras

All mantras are within urself,
as per mantra sastra
there are there stages of mantra,

pasyanthi the final stage u can hear the mantra within so that wat rishis also did everything is there in your soul, you also if doing proper sadhana can see the mantra within and can hear the mantra coming out of ur kundalini and getting out thats the final stage of any japa sadhana
vedas are there inurself but only purticular people were able to realise them, they were called rishis and thats why more than the people who realised the thing

the thing they realised became important.

even that why krishna is given authority by vedas but krishna he himself cannot give any authority to vedas.
 
S

s007bala

Guest
Lord Krishna

>>even that why krishna is given authority by vedas but krishna he himself cannot give any authority to vedas.<<

Rakesh,Lord Krishna is the eigth avataram of Lord Vishnu.But in the Gita,Bhagavan tells Arjuna,this message of gitaupanishadam was already conveyed to Surya Bhagavan
,who in turn explained it to Manu and who in turn explained Ikshvaku


[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]imam vivasvate yogam proktavan aham avyayam
vivasvan manave praha manur iksvakave 'bravit

Lord Vishnu forms part of the trinity ie Lord Shiva,Lord Brahmaa.For a long time,i used to visualise the trinity,as seperate individuals and then as lord dattatreyar,untill i came to realise advaitham.Now anandam parama sukhadam kevalam gnyana moorthim.....

sb
[/FONT]
 
geetha and vedas

hi Bala I donot why u getting Geetha into the picture I was just using a general statement to upheld the authority of vedas. Vedas are not what Geetha has mentioned here regarding the knowledge :) its knolwedge of attainging brahman.
but the practical wisdom is revealed to you by the vedas, vedas also has many application knowledges regarding daily life, like the vedaangas like dhanur veda, etc
vedas are not created they are even existing when the full universe is in the form or pralya or complete destruction
 
S

s007bala

Guest
re

hi Bala I donot why u getting Geetha into the picture I was just using a general statement to upheld the authority of vedas. Vedas are not what Geetha has mentioned here regarding the knowledge :) its knolwedge of attainging brahman.
but the practical wisdom is revealed to you by the vedas, vedas also has many application knowledges regarding daily life, like the vedaangas like dhanur veda, etc
vedas are not created they are even existing when the full universe is in the form or pralya or complete destruction
Ya,Rakesh.V E D A S anagrams D E V A S script become Deva Nagari...and so on...but marriage is by grace of gods,elders,friends and of course propr understanding between bride & groom!Gothras help in identification.I think Seshu has given the table chart.Hope it helps people.

sb:eyebrows:
 
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s007bala

Guest
re

S S

>>With these type of classification, one could imagine the extent of division that the society must have had then... and the consusions thereof!!!<<

Even today in the USA,the marriage between a Cauc-asian & african american or anyother inter-racial marriage is uncommon.I am sure in UAE also between Islamic and Hindu is never gonna happen.Despite the fact,its only a man & woman,of the human species.So,different nomenclature is being used for Jathi.That is all.Lord is correct as usual.Hare Krishna Rama!

sb
 

Seshadri Subramaniam

Well-known member
its like the question the egg or hen became to existence first..

I would say the hen which was produced not out of a egg.

for logical questions there are logical answers but for illogical questions there are no logical answers
another question by common people
did day or night appear first
i would say a night which was never followed or happend after a day they might ask how is that possible a night which was not followed by a day
i would say for ur illogical question that is the best illogical answer.
this was answer of the same question asked by great alexander to a great sage
you are asking a question of how this universe got created
dear let me tell u the answer of that can be obtained only by realising the universe itslef the absolute brahman and how can i answer that in words the one which is even above the mind, intellect and senses..
isn't ur question itself illogical? as logic can be reach where the mind and intellect reaches something beyond that where can my logic reach??
That is why I said that it is what we choose... logic is how we perceive things... the human mind tries to see logic in everything...

My question is not one to be literaly answered... rather to be reflected upon...

As regards the hen or the egg, there are several possibilities, but in all that one forgets the cock...!!!

The inability to understand a particular context or happenning cannot be termed illogical... these are all presumptions that we conveniently adopt to avoid a direct answer as we ourselves do not know that... this is the simple reality.

There are different ways of looking at it; just because it does not fit one's view does deem a statement illogical...:)
 

Seshadri Subramaniam

Well-known member
even that why krishna is given authority by vedas but krishna he himself cannot give any authority to vedas.
Everything is subordinate to the supreme... probably the intent of this is to impress upon us, the paramount importance and sanctity of the vedas...

Or rather its implied meaning would be that without the help of the vedas, we cannot realize brahman... Krishna himself has said about the different paths to attain him... these are just for people with a different bent....
 
S

s007bala

Guest
s s

>>As regards the hen or the egg, there are several possibilities, but in all that one forgets the cock...!!!<<

When one expanded to many,the creator made a hen and cock,just as man & woman.....now how did one expand to many?Aha!!

sb
 

Seshadri Subramaniam

Well-known member
s s

>>As regards the hen or the egg, there are several possibilities, but in all that one forgets the cock...!!!<<

When one expanded to many,the creator made a hen and cock,just as man & woman.....now how did one expand to many?Aha!!

sb
The original hen and cock are in hiranyagarbha state; what we see now is but their dream... of many...:yo:
 
S

s007bala

Guest
s s

>>The original hen and cock are in hiranyagarbha state; what we see now is but their dream... of many...:yo:<<

Maya or illusion of transformations.Gosh we are now into it..hope we communicate in our astral minds too :) damara dakara dum

sb
 

rakkucamy

Member
I see that Rakesh and bala have been fencing from roof to roof and have strayed from what i believe to be the topic :p Quite like some of our shastras have been misinterpreted to absurdity. I remember an article written by Cho, a few years back, where he explained the fluidity in caste in ancient india. It was the austerity and the dedication towards academic and spiritual pursuits that seem to have determined the Brahamana varna. Over a period of time many groups have been brahminised. Even a brief overview of Indian history would tell us, how many ethnically distinct groups have been brahminised and un brahminised. The the rigidity of the caste system seems to be more of a recent phenomenon and there was quite a bit of caste mobility in ancient times. The Sakaldwipi brahmanas of the north, THe Nagar Brahmanas of Gujarat are among many kulas of brahmanas that vehemently believe in their foreign origin. Sengupta et al and many others have shown the existence of all sorts of dravidian and indo-european Y-chromosome haplotypes indicating possible adoption, conversion. Ramanujacharya and Shankara seem to also have been responsible for some of the tree-climbing in the caste structure of India. Was that kind of conversion as per shastras? Nope! but they became mainstream brahmins as many others. The Nanda dynasty, The Maurya, The Pallavas, The Guptas are all of dubious origin, even Shudra origin. They were however Kshatriyised, once in power. The Rajputs are clearly not of Vedic descent, they are shakas. Caste has also been greatly under the influence of power politics among Kings, between kings and certain brahmanas. POssibilities of certain foreign priestly counter-parts to have been brahminised in the exchange of knowledge, or Baluchi hordes to be kshatriyised (Vivekananda's essays) has also been noted. The whole idea about keeping rituals community-specific is for preserving the culture. I feel necessary adjustments can be and should be made for the willing. This half-german boy would be given the right, and hopefully he should be given the right to undergo upanayanam, if he wishes to. He is a real inspiration to many other iyers who are proud to slough off their beautiful culture in the face of western culture. :p Like Chanakya said "They who possess the strength of changing traditions, are automatically given way by the older traditions". DUring the upanishidic times, there was a clear policy of holding up intent for enlightenment over birth, clear examples include Satyakama. If we keep petty things like gotram, come in the way of upanayanam, we are either being ignorant or too chauvinistic of our roots. A child is born into a brahmana family after having done numerous punyas in his previous janmas so that he can engage in the progress of his society, is it? How much longer are we going to delude ourselves with such untestable claims? Verily great mathematicians, philosophers of Greece and the Taoists of China were Brahmanas too, whether or not the sported the poonal. Rules have clearly been bent and people have been taken under the brahmin wing through upanayanam through the guru-shishya gotraparampara instead of the putraparampara. I see some people are anti-vedantic. Someone claims to have talked of vedanta to be a place of hiding from the wrath of the shastras, I would like to see how many orthodox or as bala puts it "old school" brahmanas truly live by what apastamba rishi prescribes. I think they'll use the Kaliyuga funda then. I would rather hide under vedanta than pretend to be in a maladaptive myth of kaliyuga. I would also point out that we use the vedas as reference for all sorts of nonsense. Vedas are the ultimate truth, they are for the help of the society. However, tHey dont prescribe any explicit laws for the society. Many of the Vedangas are also stuff we picked up from other cultures including Romaka Siddhanta, Paulisa Siddhanta (we also gave stuff to other cultures, no doubt). They are as much a product of the vedas as is vedic mathematics :)P). So lets stop worrying about our privileges as brahmanas, m fellow iyers and iyengars! THere is no logic or sense in holding onto man-made sastras and rituals. Vedanta is the only thing that will release us from this. The only form of thought without form or thought. The true vedantist never truly feels out of place or out of time. THere is no Kaliyuga. Kaliyuga is a product of ritualistic empty orthodoxy. It is the inability to equilibriate orthodoxy with changing times. Rationalism and Spirituality - VEdanta. Peace out! And German Iyer boy, go to a progressive bhagvatar and explain your interest, if not go to arya samaj. Everyone is entitled to the upanayanam.

|| oM tat sat brahmArpaNamastu ||
 
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s007bala

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rakkucamy

Its difficult to read your posting,but still i did.Upanayanam is for the twice born or dwijas.If he is one automatically he is entitled.This entitlement of a human being is based on various factors.There are very many sampradayas today,i am sure,he will find one to suit his needs.Govinda GOooooo vindaaa!

sb
 
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