Election Results and Politics in India

[Iyyarooraan]

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Tn & wb

MB has made history in WB by removing a 35 yr-old govt of egoists. It is always a see-saw game in Kerala and both the contenders keep their population always outside (without undertaking any development works). In TN the same party rules for so many years on one agenda. AIADMK is only a tributary of DMK. Leaders of both the parties draw energy from the other to attack the other. Whatever has happened to TN is only in the course of time as neither has planned for any progress. In TN the one single qualification you must have to become a leader is, show your magic wand in a film as a hero. If you have penetrated their heart (of public), you are a Gibraltar rock.TN abounds with highly intelligent and honest brains and they always like to be lead by their opposites! Let us hope this time JJ finishes MK and DMK and bury them in the earth's crust. This done, the people will deal with you separately.

 

[sangom]

Sri CLN
As you have clearly stated in the context of Indian politics, with a multitude of political parties and thousands of independent candidates PR will be impractical.So Indian democracy has to survive with the present system of majority principle.
regards

Shri Saarangam, CLN,

Mao Tse tung (I think) said that he was not bothered as to whether a cat is black or white so long as it efficiently caught the rats !

In india the majority concept has been working satisfactorily and our democracy has not suffered on account of that. But I am not sure what Y is referring to by proportional representation in the Indian context; is it constituencies set apart for the minorities, SC/ST, etc.?

 

[sravna]

TN along with AP may be is almost unique in its adulation of film heros. Does it tell anything about the psyche of the people? That at heart they have a fascination for idealism and are less down to earth than their counterparts?

 

[CLN]

Shri Sangom ji,

As far as my understanding goes, PR refers to nomination of a few additional MLA's/MLC's/MP's by way of recognition of the actual votes polled by all candidates of a party, irrespective of the individual candidates winning or losing by count of majority votes polled by the candidates. For the sake of a simplified illustration, let us assume that there are only two parties involved in an election (and no independents etc.) and there are (say) ten constituencies. Let us say, of the 10 seats, 7 are won by Party A and the remaining three are won by Party B. Continuing with simplification, let us also take that the 7 winners of Party A got 60 % of the votes polled in those constituencies, while the 3 winners of Party B got 80% of the votes polled in those constituencies. This also means, that the 3 losers of Party A got 20% of the votes polled in those constituencies, while the 7 losers got 40% of the votes polled in those constituencies. Continuing with our simplification, let us take that the total votes polled are the same in all the 10 constituencies. In this highly simplified scenario, the average votes polled by Party A becomes 48%, while the average votes polled by Party B becomes 52%! This simply means that if, instead of ten constituencies, (which division is made more for administrative convenience than for any other reason), there was only a single mega-constituency, 52% of the votes polled went to Party B but only 48% went to Party A, which would make Party B as the winner, not Party A! But, following our 'winner-takes-it-all' majority rule system, we ignore the choice of 52% of the people who voted for Party B and we declare Party A, voted only by 48% of the people as the Winner! How illogical!

Hence, the felt need for people to recognize this blatant anomaly and do some thing about it. It is from this concern arises the pleas for PR, by way of making provisions for the party leaderships of all parties to send to the House a few more representatives, based on their over-all performance, apart from constituency-wise performance, i.e., not a substitution, but only an addition.

Of course, to keep the calculations simple and to make the illustration of the justification behind the thought to have some sort of PR based on the choices made by all voters easy, I assumed several simplifications. In reality, not all constituencies are same, nor the voters turn out is in equal numbers in all constituencies, nor there are only two parties, nor are always votes cast strictly by party affiliations. The real situation is highly complicated, and if PR has to come into reality a highly involved formula will have to be evolved, to take into consideration all parameters.

Do we have patience and will to bring in this refinement in our electoral system?

 

[saarangam]

This article gives some idea about the various types of PR.What is proportional representation?

 

[kunjuppu]

personally, i think, the winner takes all and first one beyond the finish line is the winner, is a more suitable system for india.

with the multiple number of parties, as CLN explains, there will be chaos in the aftermath of elections. i think israel has proportionate representation, which is one reason, that this country is in a permanent state of political paralysis.

also, this type of system, gives power to the fringe parties, way out of what they have as political support.

recently there was a referendum in the u.k. re proportionate representation. the two major parties, labour & conservative wanted to retain the current system, while the social democrats wanted prop rep. the ref lost.

in europe where prop rep works is germany.

 

[Yamaka]

"Has Indian democracy, proud though we might be about being the largest in the world and all that, matured enough to bring in PR, without discarding the Majority Principle at the same time?" CLN asked.

Exactly... a very good question.

I am not a Political Scientist to know all the wrinkles in the parliamentary multi-party coalition politics of India..I am sitting here in Houston and making some observations (here apparently paradoxical) of the current Election in TN.

My question is whether Vijayakanth can be an effective Opposition Leader to the Ruling Party?

Granted, he is the Leader of the largest Party in the Assembly after the Ruling AIADMK (but got far less than the DMK in terms of total popular votes in the State).

I also understand that NOT all problems can get SOLUTIONS....!

Wait & watch.

 

[Yamaka]

Proportional Representation and American Politics

In the US, most of the Republicans don't care much about the PR... but many in the Democratic Party do care. What did they do about it?

As most people know, we have a very robust Primary process among the candidates/aspirants within the two well recognized Parties.

Republican Primary is for Winner Takes All type.. whereas Democrats get the Delegates proportional to the votes obtained at the PRECINT level... For example, in our Precint in the last Primary, Obama got 51% of the primary votes over Clinton (49%). But they split the Delegates equally (two each). In the Winner Takes ALL, Republicans will give all the four delegates to McCain...

What will be the consequence of this?

The Primary delegates earned by the Democratic Party candidates will reflect roughly the support level of the people in the country. This PR will prolong the Primary process for nearly 5-6 months..

To recall, in the last Primary cycle, McCain very quickly built up his insurmountable lead within about 2 months, after the so-called Super Tuesday in Feb, over his opponents, whereas Obama & Clinton fight went on to the near end... and was decided finally by the Super Delegates who switched their allegiance to Obama from Clinton!

Finally, because of the (mis) behavior of the Super Delegates and the fatal flaw of the Primary Process that the Democratic National Committee conducted in 2008, Barack Obama got Nominated (with less than 18 million primary votes) over Hillary Clinton (who got more than 18 million primary votes)!!!!

So much for rectifying the "Winner Takes ALL" procedure by the Proportional Representation in the US in 2008! lol

In the General Election, we have Winner Takes ALL as in India or Britain.. but we have what's the called the Electoral College whose delegates finally elect the President (EC gets delegates from the States proportional to the population). This EC is what confuses most people and once Putin called this as "The Black Box" that secretly elects the President in the USA!!!

That's the nature of the beast in the American Democracy... lol

Cheers.

 

[Yamaka]

Dear K:

Good comment!

 

[Nara]

...In india the majority concept has been working satisfactorily and our democracy has not suffered on account of that.

Dear Shri Sangom sir, I have my own doubt whether the majority-rule concept works for India or not. It is a hard call. We know that the majority take-all in TN is giving DMK or AIADMK super majorities to do whatever they very well please.

On the other hand, what positive or negative impact PR will have is anybody's guess. With a PR system, the opposition will most likely not be reduced to complete irrelevancy as it has been happening in TN time after time.

A known devil is better than an unknown angel is the best thing going for the majority-take-all democracy.

Cheers!

 

[CLN]

Several doubts arise about the soundness of replacing the 'majority rule' by PR rule, particularly when we see the reluctance od sound democracies like US, UK etc. not in a hurry to shift. But, it can be seen that PR is really opposed generally only by large / more popular parties and not by the lesser ones, for obvious reasons. In fact, the very crux of the argument in favour of PR is that it tends to give recognition to parties which lose on majority count, and minorities get to be bull-dozed into accepting the majority opinion, in every thing every time. I am sure those of us who differ from the run-of-the-mill but very popular opinion in any area of thought / social customs etc. can really understand the "pain" the minority supporters feel (i.e., they can empathize with the losers) while losing out to the majority 'bull-dozing'.

That is why, I have expressed my preference in my post not to replace majority-rule but only to incorporate a PR element into the existing system itself, so that though an individual candidate may lose by majority, the votes he gets will still help his party to have some value while deciding the over-all PR component. What I have suggested is only an addition and not a replacement. But, against the general grouse that already the elected representatives in this country are enjoying (and mis-using) several privileges and adding more number to them will only be a further drain from the exchequer, I have really no argument!

 

[saarangam]

That is why, I have expressed my preference in my post not to replace majority-rule but only to incorporate a PR element into the existing system itself, so that though an individual candidate may lose by majority, the votes he gets will still help his party to have some value while deciding the over-all PR component. What I have suggested is only an addition and not a replacement.

Dear CLN
What you have stated in your post is one type of PR known as hybrid PR system or Mixed Member System (MM).According to this system half the number of legislators are elected by the winner-take- all method while the other half is chosen by PR.
regards

 

[CLN]

Sure, Shri Saarangom!

It need not be exactly half-half. What exactly will be the percentage of the PR based representatives as against the winner-takes-it-all percentage will depend on the formula that will have to be worked out for PR, if such a hybrid system is accepted at all. But, if at all this system has to bring in real benefits, the queries and challenges listed out by me in post #24 need to be sorted out first. Will the body politic in this country be ready and agreeable to it ?

 

[sangom]

My question is whether Vijayakanth can be an effective Opposition Leader to the Ruling Party?

Granted, he is the Leader of the largest Party in the Assembly after the Ruling AIADMK (but got far less than the DMK in terms of total popular votes in the State).

I think Vijaykanth is an ally of JJ. So he will be in the ruling AIADMK front.

 

[B.Krishnamurthy]

IMHO,electoral reforms are to be introduced as early as possible.
According to me,a third house (or enhancement of the strength of present Rajya Sabha)needs to be established with more powers on 'Money bills'.
The system of reserved constituncies needs to be abolished.While nominating members on PR system to the third house,members from minorities,
S/C,/S/T,persons of wisdom,experience should only be considered.
Every party registered with the Election Commission should contest the elections individually to know their relative strength.Election commission
can derigister those parties who get less than the prescribed minimum percentage of votes.Once election is over,the duration of Loksabha/
State assemblies will be for a fixed term of 5 years.The prime minister/Chief Minister and other Ministers are to be taken only from
Lok SABHA/State Legislature which will consist of only elected persons who have won after contesting Elections.
If any party does not get majority,all elected members have to elect a PM/CM and then cabinet formed.
The country should have a policy of approved National priorities of Schemes which each Government has to follow.They can have additional programmes of their own.
Announcing gifts/freebies in manifesto or before elections should be banned.
No bye elections.If an elected member dies/resigns his seat should be filled by the party which won the elections by another member for the remaining term.
All State Governments shout if article is used/misused,but merrily dissolve all elected representatives from Co operative Socities and control them through Special officers.
The present voter identity card has been designed in such a manner involving establishment expenditure for re-issue on flimsy grounds.

 

[Brahmanyan]

Dear Sri Krishnamurthy,

Good thinking. But your proposal is silent on the post of Governor. At present this post is filledup by failed or unwanted Political leaders of the ruling party. The Governors should be elected by the people. They can preside over the Legislative Assembly instead of a Speaker.

The Members of Legislative Assembly should have some minimum qualification or experience in
elected posts like Municipality or Corporation.
No Government organization should be presided over by MLAs or other failed Candidates. They should be allowed to run as Corporate bodies.
The powers of Central Government in their relationship with States should be defined precisely. The Powers of the present CAG should be strengthened and an all Powerful Centralized Audit and Accounts department to monitor the finances of the Central and State Governments reporting to the President of India.

There should be a common examination for selection of Judicial Officers should be done like that of IAS, IFS etc. And the selection of Judges for High Court and Supreme Court should be done by a Committee which should include members from Judiciary, Ruling and Opposition Parties presided over by the President of India.

Regards,
Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.

 

[B.Krishnamurthy]

Unfortunately in India,leaders of Political parties talk eloquently about Electoral Reforms.None is serious about the same.
Shri.Vasant Sathe,former cabinet minister in Madam Indira Gandhi's government once stated that the political party which comes to power
should have a choice of bringing any person of his choice as Secretary to implement the policies of that party.He lamented that established Bureaucrats
most often do not implement the program mes of the Party in Power and put spokes in speedy implementation and when the Party is not reelected to power in the elections,these Secretary level
officers will have to vacate their Positions.I think there is some merit in his statement.
PS:-
I find that Madam JJ got the benefit of 2G Scam.Electorate had forgotten and forsaken Janata Party and Shri.Subramanya Swamy.Strange indeed!

 

[Iyyarooraan]

Placements

The Governor of a state should be from the same state only and he should preside over the house though the Chief Minister should run the state on majority vote. The strength of the government should be proved on the floor of the house as and when the demand arises leaving no time for horse-trading.So also should be the President of India's duty. You can bring in so many reforms. In this scheme of things, there will be no politicians. Various seats are created to rehabilitate the dishonoured and disgruntled politicians like fallen heroes and heroines find plenty of rehabilitation chairs to spell handful of vocabulary. But you must appreciate that these celebs would want to be in the public view by fair deeds or foul deeds. But the Constitution makers had a green vision of future India and would have thought that too many disgruntled people would threaten the country and hence provided safety valves perhaps? Long live India!

 

[Iyyarooraan]

Talking of electoral reforms, can the readers recall the name of Mr TN Seshan? Common men, we do not want any reforms. Let us learn the trick of these goons and reap the best. Worst comes to worst, we will be in a much secured place without annoyance from the others!

 

[kunjuppu]

i have heard lots - pros and cons. to some he is a great guy. others are not so sure. they claim that he had an ax to grind too. anyway, he is a 'has been'.

no impact today.

 

[Iyyarooraan]

i have heard lots - pros and cons. to some he is a great guy. others are not so sure. they claim that he had an ax to grind too. anyway, he is a 'has been'.

no impact today.

He was a hot brick and hence everybody dropped him down. ND Tiwari of UP is favoured man in spite of his latest credentials. TN Seshan was not wanted because he was a good administrator but could not handle politicians. Hence, he was made to be a "has been". Many had preceded him and many might follow him too. This country has a reputation of ignoring the elephant that squeezes itself through a ventilator but blowing out loud about the rat that enters through a massive gate. We will let go the robber of honeycombs but punish the honey-tapper who just only licked his back hand.

 

[aranganathan]

Living in the US, I have been totally out of touch with the hard-hitting in-the-face politics of TN. But when I came across the election results I fell off my chair. People chose the lesser of the two evils. However this is a great chance for amma to clear the decks of all the vermins and snakes and hopefully fill it with less harmful creatures! A while ago I was despondent that while in middle-east people have risen up against corruption and nepotism, people of TN were willing sacrificial lambs (bali kadaa). Now I have a sense of partial satisfaction. I am hopeful that people would keep this government honest! Good luck to the people of TN!

 

[B.Krishnamurthy]

Once I travelled with a SPG officer from Newdelhi to Chennai.He had a very poor opinion about Shri.T.N.Seshan and his wife and also about
Shri.Gujeral former Prime minister of India.The allegation was these VVIPS treated the SPG personnel (stationed in their houses to protect the
life of these VVIPS) very very shabbily.

 

[kunjuppu]

let me tell you a story about v.v.giri.

he was assigned, when he was a vice president, an adsc, who was a general. this was a sikh.

giri visited one of my relative's house for dinner one night. those were innocent times, and the presence of the adsc in uniform was considered sufficient security.

the lady of the house, understanding that he was a guard, mistook him for a 'servant', made this graduate of ima khadavasla, wait till everyone finished their dinner, and eat in the kitchen, in the floor along with the servants.

not one word of complaint or discomfiture from the sikh gentleman, though i am quite sure, he probably had a few bottles of whiskey on return home.

giri knew the status of the general, but they did not care about how he was treated. such a shame!!

.. and let me not go on, about how we treat our servants. just a few days back, i heard one (and only one of) my relative of mine, who used, AT THE START OF THE MEALS, set aside food for the cook and maid.

God bless this lady. she is the only one of her tribe that i know.