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Do we follow some norms and ethics in this forum

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Sow.Happy Hindu,

I am very happy to see the 'Happy Hindu' this forum has known all along. When we see beyond this bickering and fighting, we are all but interested in helping some poor persons. At the end of the day most of us are involved in similar services. (I am listening to songs from an old movie. I am adding that link...I am sure you will enjoy this...Thooku thuuki Tamil mp3 songs free download Regional - equity loan , secure, auto insurance quote,auto insurance quote )

Cheers!
 
Some thots:

1)
I agree with Shri KRS ji that the present generation cannot be academically marginalized bcoz of the past actions of the ancestors. There must be a way to accomodate everyone. But what is the way to do it? Any suggestions or solutions?

2) Why is no one questioning the competance of 'upper caste' students who score poor marks but study on donations?

3) Surely the government has to have way to accomodate the likes of Nagaraj Mohanraj: The Hindu : Cities / Coimbatore : His dream to pursue medicine hangs in balance (Mr.Chief Minister, what is the use of giving free TVs-- why not do something to ensure education for such merit candidates is free or borne by the government?
The article says many rural students in Salem and Namakkal districts got admissions in various government medical colleges on merit this year. How is the government going to help them?).


4)
Shri Sangom, Nobody is blaming brahmins alone. The video captured everyone who discriminates against dalits (Sikh-jats who discriminate against Sikh-Ravidasias, Kommdayars in Andhra, Patels and Rawats in Gujarat, Rajputs who rape dalit women, upper caste muslims and christians who discriminate against the lower caste ones in their religions, and so on).

The video also shows a non-brahmin man explaining how they keep dalits in control using "fear", and how they 'control the police'. There is also a girl in the movie behaving like a don, probably imitating the older men in her family. Dalit kids are made to clean toilets in schools bcoz they are dalits. And we think untouchability does not exist today? They face problems with housing, education, employment, and so on...The problem is with everyone who discriminates against them. But where does this discrimination originate from?

Are law-makers (brahmins) to be blamed or the law-enforcers (kshatriyas) or law-controllers (vaishyas)? Methinks, everyone to tries to enforce "shastras" in the current times is to be firmly dealt with by the current law.

When it comes to shastras, i ask --
What can be done to address the pov of the shastras which discriminates? This is a point which I can raise only in this forum. And what to do with the priests who want discrimination to be enforced in this day and age? This is also a point which i can raise only on a brahmin forum like this one. But no one has answered these questions so far.

5) Shri Nara,
Reg reservations, my inputs are these:

a) Reservations by caste is to be given only for SCs and STs. Those (as individuals / individual families i mean) who belong to OBC, MBC, BC, etc, and are backward (both socially and economically) are to be merged with the SC / ST section. This is bcoz there are rich and poor in every caste (like rich Vanniyars and poor Vanniyars. Only the poor Vanniyars shd get reservation and not the rich ones).

b) For all others, reservations should only be based on economic conditions of a family and not caste.

c) Special privileges are to be given to sections such as Musahars and Doms. The Musahars in Bihar are forced to work as bonded labour by brahmin landlords (please read about the origins of the militant Ranvir Sena). In these areas, special police (like CRPF) are to be trained and deployed to ensure these dalits can go to school without fear.

d) Shri RVR rightly observed how educated unemployed youth are 'fermenting' in the waiting to eventually bcome naxals or naxal-supporters. Its not about education alone. Its also about employment.

e) More than anything, i think its about social mores and social acceptance. If that part is addressed, i suppose a lot will fall in place automatically.

Regards.
 
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Dear Mr. Kunjuppu,
[FONT=&quot]Though I belong to the comparatively younger generation, I have thought about this many times. From my experience with politicians I can say only this as given below. I am not a political pundit to say anything authoritatively, but a free thinking individual who can always offer his views[/FONT]. Hence please take this with necessary allowances and tolerances.
Mr. Kunjuppu: Do you think that we TBs played our political cards wrong in handling the dravidian parties? it is often said, that in politics, there are no permanent enemies, only permanent interests.
Me: In the deal after independence , like every other player we also had a fair share of aces in our hand. But after independence when there was an attempt to forcibly take away those cards from our hand by other players, we were flummoxed and we did not have a game plan to defend ourselves. We conceded initiative too early in the game and we are still struggling with the consequences of that blunder. There being no enemies and only interests is just a statement. In Tamilnadu, others are refusing to accept you as a friend at any time, whatever you do to be friendly. Period. It requires two hands to clap.

K:this appears not to be working for us. i think starting from periyar's days, his words stung us. perhaps there was too much truth in them. either we had to agree & change or fight for the status quo.

Me: There was no truth in Periyar’s words. If anything, he was a charlatan. He was not true to his own conscience. On the one hand he will lecture about women’s liberation and even women’s sexuality and will marry a young minor girl denying her sexual rights without any qualms. He will say there is no god and will rant about the Hindu religion but will never say a word about other religions and yet claim to be an atheist. He will eloquently speak about atrocities committed by Brahmins and yet will say not a single word about the same atrocities which were committed by his own caste (Naickers) and other higher castes in Tamilnadu (for a sample read about Kilvenmony massacre and Periyar’s published opinion about that). In the few places where he had to say such things, there would be only equivocation. He had a funny idea of who is a true tamil. To cut it short I would just say he was a hypocrite who was kicked up the stairs by sheer luck and circumstances. Brahmins need not have felt defensive or guilty about their past as propogated by Periyar and his pack of scoundrels. One single drawback of Brahmins had been that they did not have a leader to whom every one will give their loyalty totally. Because of their very nature Brahmins are highly individualistic in their life. They do join together but for very brief periods that too for a religious purpose only. They can never agree on a common political programme because of their immense capacity for hairsplitting interpretations and elephant sized egos. Brahmins should have called Periyar’s bluff and moved ahead with their alternative solution of uplifting dalits/panchamans. For this there were glimmering leads given by those Brahmins who had drafted the constitution of India. But then our leaders who could not see beyond the tip of their noses could not grasp it and convert it into an opportunity. If that had happened may be India could have reached heights of glory and growth much earlier with a corruption free society.

K: since 1967, when the dravidian revolution captured power, overnight we lost our standing, even though the power base only came to be eroded gradually. how come, when we did not reasses our strategy, to continue to be an effective player in tamil nadu politics.

Me: It did not happen in 1967. It happened over a period of time. The hatred merchants of Dravidian movement were busy working with their pet opiate formulations(caste and language) and were poisoning the minds of common man and there was no strategy to counter it. Government was frittering away its energy in grandiose schemes which were never understood by common man. There was no attempt to educate about the poisoning that was going on. There was no decisive disciplining of the hatred merchants either. It led to some funny situations like the one that happened on the day of agitation for renaming the dalmiapuram railway station. To recall it briefly, the present CM was leading the agitation and he was lying on the railwayline in protest against the naming of the railway station (Dalmia is a north Indian name!). The police was indecisive and the leader had to call the police chief and ask why he has not arrested him yet as he was finding it difficult to lay on the railwayline in the hot sun and it was smelling horrible. We did not have any power base and so we never lost it. We were only mute witnesses to the surrendering of our nation’s resources to the scoundrels.

K:i request, challenge, beseech and ask you - to give some thoughts to the failure of our political leadership to find an effective way to work with the dravidian parties ie mainly the dmk. we all know, that dmk, and its sister organizations like pmk or dmdmk or future *dmks will all pay lip service to periyar and anna.

Me:Quitely lot of things are happening. There is a younger generation which is not fettered by the helplessness of the earlier generation. The new generation is assertive and is not apologetic. It readily rubbishes the cock and bull story of centuries of exploitation by Brahmins because it knows that it is just that. They will claim their rightful place in times to come. Though the elder politicians of kazhagams know that isolating Brahmins as a weapon has lost its sheen, it is too much to expect that they will change their tunes. Periyar and Anna will be forgotten in course of time as their iconic importance becomes worn out. And new icons will come in their place.

K:are we going to continue stand aside, and be a whipping boy at election times, or are we going to use our supposed smarts to ensure that our poor gets some benefits from an increasingly prosperous tamil nadu?
[FONT=&quot]Me:For the present standing aside is the only best course available. You can never expect that the present tamil society will offer any sops to Brahmins. It is not necessary either. Self-help is the best help. Here comes the need for the acharyas and elder leaders of the laity to provide leadership. Like Christians we can segregate the laity and the maths giving each equal power in decision making.......contd....[/FONT]
 
Contd from previous posting:
It is a lengthy subject which can be discussed separately.

K:i wish you to address only from a political standpoint, and avoid all the musings about ancient wrongs or manu's laws.

[FONT=&quot]Me: I think I have stuck to the line given by you. Cheers.

[/FONT]
 
goverment of india does not wantcaste to go away nor reservationto go away.thatha raja thatha praja.

if i was prime minister of india,i will stop all application forms with columns of cast instead have only natinaity as Indian.thats is all is required in India.rest is all your education,skills,talents,to survive.not even race shud be used.only nationality-period.

economic ackground as criteria for doles or grants.every politicians house to be raided by income tax as well as every bueracrats house raided by income tax.polce officers fired from jobs if they listen to ministers and not do their jobs.a person cannot be transferred from his job from the whims and fancies of a minister.

ppl who speak or promote casteism shud be jailed or shot dead in India.

the above post is contrary to my perceived thots thus far. :)
 
Shri NN,

The prob is with 3 sections:

1) Brahmins: Shastra-makers (law makers) and keepers to this day in the form of 'divine' spiritual justice (aka dharmashastras).

2) Kshatriyas: Shastra-enforcers (law-enforcers) who enforce 'dharma' or shastric-discrimination using physical violence and fear.

If the first category indulges in what can be called "intellectual or spiritual violence", the second category puts it into action as physical violence.

The 3rd category, the vaishyas, try to act as law-controllers who thru the force of money or influence of money try to control where these shastras are applied. And in certain places, they are as much a problem as the law-makers and law-enforcers.

Probs created by people of all the 3 categories need to be addressed. Reg the first category, i can ask only on forums such as this one -- what should be the solution to handle such priests according to each of you ?

Am still waiting for proper answers.

Shooting is not the answer. Killing never wipes out ideology.

Some ppl blame the RSS, VHP, Sangh Parivar and such organizations who work with tribals. None of these organizations are doing anything illegal. Please remember, without them, and without organizations like Arya Samaj who do not discriminate b/w hindus based on caste, we would not have had as many pacifist or pacified hindus today...





goverment of india does not wantcaste to go away nor reservationto go away.thatha raja thatha praja.

if i was prime minister of india,i will stop all application forms with columns of cast instead have only natinaity as Indian.thats is all is required in India.rest is all your education,skills,talents,to survive.not even race shud be used.only nationality-period.

economic ackground as criteria for doles or grants.every politicians house to be raided by income tax as well as every bueracrats house raided by income tax.polce officers fired from jobs if they listen to ministers and not do their jobs.a person cannot be transferred from his job from the whims and fancies of a minister.

ppl who speak or promote casteism shud be jailed or shot dead in India.

the above post is contrary to my perceived thots thus far. :)
 
HH,
just curious. Do these distinctions still exist markedly on varna lines? caste distinctions, yes but based on varna??. Brahmins still exist as a community, agree, but is there someone called a kshatriya and Vaishya? to me it looks like it has become B and NB. Sorry, don't misunderstand me, I am not coming with my guns blazing here.

One thing I agree here is there are people being discriminated against which has no place in any soceity. I would classify the people as Privileged Vs Discriminated. Regardless of any caste or community lines the perpetrator has to be brought into books, no question about it. Now how to bring them in line is another question. A lot of things have to work in tandem.

The government, social structure, laws. More so the people themselves have to follow an inner restraint. One can build beautiful toilets but if a man still pisses in the middle of the road what do you do with him?
 
Good to see you dear Anand.

I request you to please see the movie "India Untouched". Esp the stand of priests in that entire movie (i have posted the hyperlinks in a previous post on this thread).

After you watch the movie, we cud discuss on your post.
 
Shri Sangom, Nobody is blaming brahmins alone.
HH,

I had written a reply some time ago and thought I submitted the msg but probably I did not. So, here again.
I am also not saying that brahmins alone are being blamed (by any one). What I only suggested that instead of tracing the origin of the caste system, which leads to the brahmanic dominance in the past, and blaming the origin and its cause all the time, let us also consider that the other two FCs also benefitted from the social dispensation under "chaaturvarnyam" if not to an extent more than what the brahmins benefitted, at least equally. I, therefore, feel that we can now move forward towards the future instead of completely getting stuck with the past.



The video also shows a non-brahmin man explaining how they keep dalits in control using "fear", and how they 'control the police'. There is also a girl in the movie behaving like a don, probably imitating the older men in her family. Dalit kids are made to clean toilets in schools bcoz they are dalits. And we think untouchability does not exist today? They face problems with housing, education, employment, and so on...The problem is with everyone who discriminates against them. But where does this discrimination originate from?
Of course, it originates from the Maanava Dharma Saastra (MDS) which is supposed to be the law propounded by Manu who, as someone had stated, has been acknowledged as the first Man and the first King. Hence those who want to deflect the argument may very well say that the caste-system is the brain child of a Kshatriya. But I hold the view that Manu, even if he was a real person was born casteless and since he was the first born, was accepted by his descendants as their leader and King. In my view the MDS is the handiwork of brahmin interests. So, to your question, "where does this discrimination originate from", the answer is from brahmin interests.

But having said that even if we imagine for a moment that by some stern measures all the brahmins are annihilated selectively, I don't think the atrocities which are now being committed on the Dalits will come to an end, or at least lessen, in any part of India including the Bimaru regions. That is why I suggest that we leave this issue on this note and think of what can now be done (by the members of this forum) to ameliorate the conditions of the dalits.

Are law-makers (brahmins) to be blamed or the law-enforcers (kshatriyas) or law-controllers (vaishyas)? Methinks, everyone to tries to enforce "shastras" in the current times is to be firmly dealt with by the current law.
All are to be blamed.

When it comes to shastras, i ask --
What can be done to address the pov of the shastras which discriminates? This is a point which I can raise only in this forum. And what to do with the priests who want discrimination to be enforced in this day and age? This is also a point which i can raise only on a brahmin forum like this one. But no one has answered these questions so far.
The Shastras have only archival value today. Beyond some domestic rituals of brahmins (and perhaps some FCs, I don't know) connected with births, deaths and marriages the Shastras and their POV do not at all figure in our lives.As to the priests or others who want untouchability back, it is already a punishable offence (criminal, I think). If GOI will amend the law, I would suggest that such people should be punished by compulsory community work in Dalit colonies.
 
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hh

i say ppl must wake up.shastras are selectively used.those who uplifted downtrodden got jailed.the case is going on on on on on...shoot the politicians.police shud shoot ministers.100 ministers shud be shot.they are scums on earth.religious leaders shud be shot dead.ppl shud awake.indians are being confused.there is no values anymore.ahimsa is touted for inefficiency,stop importing oil.let ppl use bullock carts.stop manufacturing beedies ciggies whisky.stop prostitution.dictatorship like aryan dravidian shud be killed on the spot.judges shud be jailed indefinitely.declare emergency.india needs iron hand rule.not pussies who are leaders.

the above post is in anguish and a shot in the wild.expecting china usa russia to change is nonsense.we shud change ourselves.common sense is not working.
 
Sri Sangom Sir,

I just want to bring one actual incident.

I just made an appeal in our forum some time back for helping fishermen community children with good education under the following thread

http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/sponso...request-help-dayananda-saraswathi-school.html

Believe me or not, the donations which we received based on my appeal are all from brahmins only.

For an Indian salary earner, Rs.1000 or Rs 500 donation is a big thing. But an NRI, making say 100 USD donation is a very small thing.

All the donations received were from Brahmin community people in India. One NRI member met me recently and has committed to make some payment for the cause.

It only proves that fighting for daliths and at the same time brahmin bashing here is very easy. I may not be surprised if some other religion may be funding them to create problems for brahmins here.

Literally helping the fisherman with good education is very difficult but abusing brahmins here is very easy.

Let us be careful with such guys here.

All the best
 
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As to the priests or others who want untouchability back, it is already a punishable offence (criminal, I think). If GOI will amend the law, I would suggest that such people should be punished by compulsory community work in Dalit colonies.

There are laws Sangom. But ineffective bcoz the law-enforcers (so-called 'kshatriyas') have made a joke out of it.

I liked the punishment of compulsarily working in dalit colonies. I think it will work if dalits form a self-help group in each city / town / village, with the help of some NGOs and put that into action (not only for Bs but also for NBs).

I wud like to see 2 folks -- the Kashi Tulsi temple priest and the 'Kshatriya' man (who spoke about 'using fear' and 'controlling police' to keep the dalits opppressed) -- working in dalit colonies. What wud happen if they were to clean sewers and remove dead bodies from railway tracks.
 
HH,
just curious. Do these distinctions still exist markedly on varna lines? caste distinctions, yes but based on varna??. Brahmins still exist as a community, agree, but is there someone called a kshatriya and Vaishya? to me it looks like it has become B and NB. Sorry, don't misunderstand me, I am not coming with my guns blazing here.

One thing I agree here is there are people being discriminated against which has no place in any soceity. I would classify the people as Privileged Vs Discriminated. Regardless of any caste or community lines the perpetrator has to be brought into books, no question about it. Now how to bring them in line is another question. A lot of things have to work in tandem.

The government, social structure, laws. More so the people themselves have to follow an inner restraint. One can build beautiful toilets but if a man still pisses in the middle of the road what do you do with him?
Dear Anand,

The discussions here in this forum go on on the notional premise that all the existing castes can be grouped under one or the other of the four castes of "chaaturvarnyam". Since the forum itself represents only one caste and which is also one of the Varnas, there is some ambiguity, some times, I think.

IMO, the conditions of Dalits in T.Nadu is definitely worse compared to those in Kerala but the Dalits of N.India face unimaginably pitiable situations. Why then we are devoting so much attention to this aspect here, you may ask. It is because the topic of caste-based reservations somehow comes up in most threads, for some reason or another, and then the discussions take their own course!

With my limited experience and knowledge, I feel that these reservations will continue, with more and more modifications and warps, till the percentage reaches about 80. Then the unreserved portion will become so small as not to make any group clamour for a share out of that, I think. Whether this will result in the betterment of the really suffering people is for future to tell.
 
Thanks, HH. I did not have the time but did go through the part of those so called priests. I don't subscribe to them . To me they come across as fundamental Hindus who have never understood the Vedas and the spirit of it. A few rotten apples you do find everywhere, unfortunately. The shastras talk about varnas and not castes and in any case there are a lot of interpolations and the unwritten rule is the shastras have to be understood in the spirit of the Vedas so anything which violates that spirit has to be rejected as an interpolation.

Honestly, if you ask me the varna system has to be practiced in its entirety or rejected in its entirety. no point practicing those which suits us and reject the rest. meaning I am not for any kind of discrimination, whatsoever, whether by brahmins or anyone.

Thanks
 
....Honestly, if you ask me the varna system has to be practiced in its entirety or rejected in its entirety. no point practicing those which suits us and reject the rest. meaning I am not for any kind of discrimination, whatsoever, whether by brahmins or anyone.

Dear Anand, We may come from different perspectives, but we here meet again, at a place different from American hegemony where we met earlier.

Cheers!
 
[video=youtube;Ya85knuDzp8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ya85knuDzp8[/video]
wish you cud be paul ..:) i will be predicting if you were insides of me
 
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Folks,

In this thread, that has morphed into one of discrimination against Dalits and the efficacy and fairness of the reservation system, the most pertinent references provided so far are these two, one provided by Shri KRS, and the other by HH and Zunedune.

The movie, India Untouchable, clearly shows that the continuing, widespread and intolerable oppression of Dalits is undeniable. The elaborate longitudinal study presented in the paper cited by Shri KRS clearly and undeniably shows how important the reservation system has been and how unfinished the job is.

I saw the entire movie. What is amazing is not the ignorant Brahmin from Kasi or the Upper caste NB bragging about keeping the Dalits in line through fear, but it is the complete disconnect between the views of the Upper Caste of Kerala that simply dismisses that untouchability even exists any more in Kerala, and the real oppression the Malayalee Dalits narrate. A lady claims very casually and without any trace of irony, that she is not caste-conscious but will marry only within caste. The first step to solving a problem is to recognize the problem exists, and it seems we, as a society, are yet to get to the first step.

There are many heartbreaking scenes in the movie. Among them are, the casual way the Dalit girls narrate how they take turns cleaning toilets and how many buckets of water they need to wash away the filth, the boy who explains he rather not eat lunch at school at all than have to sit separately, and many more. We as a society hammer in caste inferiority into their psyche day in and day out, and then we want a caste-blind system. Why caste has to be taken into account in any redress is illustrated in this 40 second clip.

Now, to the paper Shri KRS cited, I read the entire paper, highlighted it and reread it. This paper looked at individual-level survey data, gathered by National Sample Survey (NSS) between 1983 and 2000. They examined success rate at each of five transitional stages of education, (i) enrollment in primary school, (ii) completion of primary school, (iii) completion of middle school (8th grade), (iv) completion of secondary school, and (v) completion of college degree. They also looked at other factors such as family income, rural/urban domicile, etc.

I give you couple of their major findings.

The disparity in success rate at early stages of educational transition has narrowed, i.e., between Dalits and High Caste Hindus, the difference in probability of enrollment in primary school, completion of middle school, and completion of secondary school, have narrowed over time between 1983 and 2000. But, at the stage of college admission and graduation, the probability gap has remained steady, no improvement. This is what Shri KRS cited as proof of failure of the reservation system even after 60 years.

But the authors attribute this to the fact that more and more Dalit children are becoming eligible to advance to college level and that is why the gap has remained stable over time. They cite another research study to point out that the educational inequality will remain unchanged until enrollment at a given level reaches a saturation point estimated at around 95% of the population completing that level of education. Obviously, we are nowhere near this figure, thanks to the continuing oppression as evidenced by the movie India Untouched.

A second major point they present is about the so called creamy layer. Their analysis over time on family income scale shows that at all income levels Dalits fair significantly below upper caste Hindus. Here is a telling conclusion of the authors, "... our results suggest that even upper-class dalits fail to achieve their educational potential, and hence class-based affirmative action may not remedy all of the caste-based inequalities."

People who offer episodic and personal anecdotes to promote their own pet theory about the "utter failure" of the reservation system need to cite well researched and peer evaluated studies to support their assertions, or keep their peace.

Cheers!

p.s.
Among many other interesting findings presented in the paper is the fact that Muslims are steadily loosing ground in education over the years. This is an ominous trend. A free, thriving, confident, and successful minority is the perfect antidote to extremism.
 
Please read the following article on how a Parliamentary seat meant for a Scheduled Caste candidate is cornered by a non-Scheduled caste person.

"Kerala MP loses seat for false declaration

Ananthakrishnan G | TNN

Thiruvananthapuram: In a major embarrassment to the Congress,the Kerala high court on Monday annulled the election of five-time party Lok Sabha MP and AICC secretary Kodikkunnil Suresh from the Mavelikkara reserved constituency on the ground that he did not belong to the Scheduled Caste and was wrongly claiming such status benefit.
The order came on a petition filed by his rival from Mavelikkara,RS Anil,of the CPI and two others.Allowing the petition,a bench noted discrepancies in Sureshs claims."

This news item is available in Times of India, Chennai, front page today's paper (27.7.2010)

ePaper Lite - Times of India Publications

This is how the reservation meant for SC/ST is cornered by vested interests. In this case the person has already misused it several times and caught only now after the opposite candidate taken the matter to High Court of Kerala.

The person who misused the parliamentary seat is All India Secretary of the ruling Congress Party and must be a very powerful guy. Since the opposition candidate is a Communist Party of India member the truth has come out through moving the High Court of Kerala. We don't know how many such misuse are happening daily at various levels. If the affected party is a poor rural farmer's son, he may not have the resources to bring out the truth. It only proves my contention that the present `Reservation System has Totally Failed' and whatever statistics produced here are based on false data.

All the best
 
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Dear Professor Nara Ji,
I expected this assessment from you about the study I posted and I will quote a few lines from their conclusions and present them to you for refutation. But, before that, I have to say a few words, perhaps off from a direct response to your above posting.

Professor, do you realize that there are NO, I repeat NO, studies that were done that directly link any social advancement of the oppressed communities to the quota system?. This now after 60 years of a well implemented system that one would have thought the implementors would have captured enough metrics to tout the system. Can you explain this anomaly? By the way, as you demand 'scientific proof' from those who think that the system is unfair at worst and ineffective at the best, how about you? Can you cite anything other than the Anna Ubiversity study? By the way, please see this regarding that study: http://www.rediff.com/news/2006/may/30spec.htm
While admittedly anecdotal, this explains the reasons for close cut off marks between the advantaged and disadvantaged. By the way, one should ask, if it is such a small difference, then what is the need for the quota at all?

Again, you have chosen to selectively answer my very many points about the fairness of this system today. While, it is your right, I am quite disappointed that you have either given them no consideration or if you have, you have chosen deliberately to ignore telling me about them!

Secondly, you should know that my heart goes to pieces when I see disadvantaged folks anywhere on earth, let alone in my mother country. I have often written about the disadvantaged muslims here and elsewhere. In fact in a different forum, a member was so exasperated by my defense of the indian muslim community, he called me a '(four letter word) fakir'. I am not interested in any ideology. I am interested only in a government truly helping ALL of her disadvantaged. I want equal opportunities for ALL, because now India is a democracy and officially casteless.

Now to the study:
Let me give you some quotes:
"While this analysis indicates narrowing of educational inequalities between dalits and adivasis on one hand and upper caste Hindus and Sikhs, Christians, and Jains on the other during the 1980s and 1990s, it cannot positively attribute these changes to affirmative action policies, although these are the years during which affirmative action policies intensified"
"Educational inequalities are a function of many different factors: availability and quality of schools, returns to education, parental demand for schooling, and teachers’ attitudes. Within the context of our analysis, it is not possible to show unambiguously that the changes we observed are the results of positive discrimination or affirmative action"
"The declining educational disadvantage of dalits/adivasis, the two groups benefiting from affirmative action, and the lack of improvement in the relative status of Muslims, who do not benefit from positive discrimination, suggest that affirmative action policies may have had some impact. However, this is at best a tentative conclusion and worthy of future research examining the impact of specific policies"
"Moreover, while educational inequalities declined in the context of Indian affirmative action policies, the size of this achievement was modest. Although the situation is improving, at each educational level, dalits and adivasis continue to lag behind upper caste Hindus, Christians, and Sikhs, and these disadvantages seem to accumulate at higher levels of education."

Dear Professor Ji, when youy say "But, at the stage of college admission and graduation, the probability gap has remained steady, no improvement. This is what Shri KRS cited as proof of failure of the reservation system even after 60 years. ", you are absolutely correct. Please read the quotes I have cited above from the conclusions of the study and tell me if my inference is wrong.

When one does something the same way and expects a different result each time, that is said to be the sign of madness. Please tell me what foundation you have to assert that 'one needs to redouble the effort on the quota system' (Iam paraphrasing - may I say the authors also say this), while the conclusions of this study decidedly say something else.

And the most maddening thing is that there are other, more effective ways available than the quota system to improve the conditions of all poor (see the improvement in primary/secondary education levels of the disadvantaged segment in the study). The early education is where it is at, because that affords to shape the outlook of a young person at an early stage. By the time they come to college, it is too late. Let us pray for the day when India officially ignores castes and helps all of her disadvantaged with equal abandon. Let the past be past.

Regards,
KRS



 
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a civilisation as old as lord krishna the eight avataram of the vishnu paramparam,is our India today.minimal time period for the lord is 5112 years back.out of which 1200 years is rule by islam and christians.terrorism in todays jargon or alien occupation is the jargon.from this 1200 years,we are expected to do bulti-karanam within 100 years to be amongst comity of nations and lose all our cultural identity,becoz the world today is dominated by christians and Islam.so,India & Indians in particular,should have no knowledge of the civilised lifestyle which existed to prior 1200 years rule of islamo-christian terrorism,but instead ape the present,discarding the past.wahay guru meherban karo :)
 
I explain my experience in a remote village in Thanjavur district.One of my relative demised in her house in an Agraharam.Since she was a pious lady her admirers in large numbers who are all dalits stood within their limit watched the procession with tears.None of them came nearer as it is practised there.But alas! The scene changed when once we were near the burning ghat.Teen agers of different communities Brahmins,Dalits Vanniars,Kallars,Muslims were playing with each other in the running water without any difference.Because there is no one to point out their caste.The are united as school mates and village mates.It stricked me thus "Elders are willing to abide by their old customary practices with out murmur and they don't interfere with their children to whatever caste they belong'.If the right people discard the selfproclaimed dalit leaders speach and action there won't be hatred
 
It is true that the reservation system, like any other well-intentioned scheme of the Government, gets misused. But the solution to that problem is not to throw away the system but to punish the misusers (term coined by me) exemplarily. In the case of the Kerala MLA's case also, I am sure the Supreme Court will give a proper decision with suitable punishments.

It seems to me - but is not very clear to me - that Shri KRS is of the view that making educational avenues available to the less privileged classes (LPC) will suffice and then they will come up. But, as far as I know, the entry in the primary school and the continued study of the LPC children up to the secondary level is more due to the free food scheme introduced by at least some of the states (I do not know whether it has been done by all the states). Now, if the child attends the class he/she will get moon meal. Hence the parents are rid of a major worry - finding food for the children. Since the children get something (may be worst quality, which we may not even look at), to eat once daily, they may go hungry at night. This is what makes many poor households to send their children to school. Otherwise, the dictum in their law book is "earn something if you want to eat something" right from the age of 6 or 7; parental responsibility, bringing up children in the proper and healthy way, and all such noble ideals cannot have a place in their philosophy. Now some State Govts have allowed free education for girls up to post-graduation and this also has some positive effect in making more girls continuing their education to a level higher than otherwise would have happened.

If the reservation system is removed and only more schools, colleges and professional institutes are opened, the FCs including brahmins will have a windfall while the LPCs will simply have to stay out because they will not be able to compete with the FCs, nor will they be able to afford the expenses under such a system. Once again history will repeat. Hence, in my view, the reservations should continue, but the misuse should be prevented. Perhaps if the SC/ST, BC etc., committees at the national level are empowered by law to scrutinize and bring to book the offenders on an ongoing basis, the reservation system will improve to some extent.
 
Dear Anand, We may come from different perspectives, but we here meet again, at a place different from American hegemony where we met earlier.

Cheers!

Aha, Shri. Nara. You mean to say you agree with my statement here?? I thought you were never for the varna system as you found it discriminative. May be I am missing something here?
 
Sri KRS Said,

"And the most maddening thing is that there are other, more effective ways available than the quota system to improve the conditions of all poor (see the improvement in primary/secondary education levels of the disadvantaged segment in the study). The early education is where it is at, because that affords to shape the outlook of a young person at an early stage. By the time they come to college, it is too late"

This is exactly the problem in India. Primary/Secondary schools does not have teachers. In most of the schools one teacher handles first to fifth standard classes. There is no proper system to check the sincerity of the teacher also. It is a deliberate attempt on the part of the rulers to deny proper school education to the deprived sections of the society.

Education is commercialized from Primary to highest levels and most of the educational institutions are controlled of politicians belonging to all parties. All politicians have a common agenda of `looting the public and enriching themselves'. Quality and standards are going down on a continuous basis.

Unless under privileged people get good education at school level, they are not in the race for higher studies where reservation laws are applied. More than one fourth of the people of Tamilnadu are still illiterate.

Demographics of Tamil Nadu - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Unless they are empowered with better school education, the so called reservation in higher education is just cheating the innocent public.

If we analyse the illiterate it may bring out the truth that bulk of them are from`SC, ST, Muslims and women'. Unfortunately the intellectuals here doesn't want to discuss the real problem. The so called SC/ST in Anna University admissions may not be real SC/ST but from the caste Hindus who managed to get SC/ST certificates. Inspite of the direction of the supreme court to delete `creamy layer' among the communities eligible for reservation, nothing is being done at ground level.

In the name of reservation policy, certain elite caste Hindus corner the Government benefits depriving the real poor and down trodden daliths.

If a person not belonging to SC community can get elected repeatedly for five times in a Parliamentary seat reserved for SC community, anything can happen in this country.

It only proves my argument that the present `reservation system has miserably failed' in this country.

All the best
 
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