Do we follow some norms and ethics in this forum

[RVR]

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Getting a caste certificate from the Tahsildar is not a difficult proposition.

I personally know lot of people who doesn't belong to SC community are stamped as SC in their certificates and misuse the reservation.

Only a brahmin cannot get certificate mentioning some other caste. All other castes manage it.

There are both forward and backward Chettiars, Mudaliars, Pillais, Naidus etc. Those who belong to forward among these communities get certificate mentioning that they are backward.

Those who really belong to backward get SC certificate through `proper channels'.

The worst affected are poor among all these communities. A poor and illiterate dalith farmer's son is the worst affected when these type of misuse takes place. Poor people belonging all other communities face similar problems.

A recent study of a panel constituted by the Government of India has come out with some interesting facts.

Non tax-paying upper castes are equal to OBCs: Panel - India - The Times of India

Present reservation system is totally flawed.

All the best

 

[happyhindu]

If am not wrong, for SCs and STs, the required cut-off in the AIIMS entrance exam has never gone down below 70 percent.

I know of so-called 'upper-castes' (both Bs and NBs) who did not score beyond 50 percent in the AIIMS entrance from 1990 to 2001.

So, the SCs and STs who are getting admitted to AIIMS are obviously not the "lowest scores".

Am reminded of Dr.Yadulal from the "India Untouched" movie who questions the economically spoilt section (of upper castes) who get low marks and study on donations.

Why are we questioning the competance of those who study on reservations but do not question those who (fare much worse academically but) study on donations?

For all its warts, am convinced that the reservation system has truly helped some of the deserving sections of the poor to get themselves an education.

Shri RVR should know that there are quite a few Kerala brahmins who get low caste certificates in Karnataka by paying bribes. And yes, i can prove it by producing one such SC certificate. If people misuse government machinery, who is to blame? The people or the government?

Reg the priests who insist on rubbish in this age and time, i want to know::

How can and why should the government leave the Kashi Tulsi temple priest alone when he openly stands on the pov that a shudra must be denied education in this age and time? He accepts he has been arrested a few times for practicing untouchability. He openly declares he does not accept the indian constitution. He is against equal opportunities to all. His words would greatly help breed a kind called 'extremists'.

I want to ask him -- is he cutting off his feet (the shudras as he claims) before entering the Tusi temple? On what basis does he prevent people from entering the Kashi Vishwanath temple? How can one man decide an other man's desire to just enter a temple, and pray in front of the diety for a few minutes ?

How would you feel if you were denied even this simplest of all desires -- the desire to pray at a temple?

Before speaking of education rights that the "upper castes" are being deprieved of now, please spare a thot to the rights which an untouchable has been deprieved of for years...

Those who claim reservations should end, please address these issues first -- how can such "social menaces" be handled -- if you met such brahmin priests (like the kashi temple one), what would you say? Do you personally feel a dalit must be prevented from entering temples? Where goes the 'equality' of opportunities here?

 

[janam]

Greetings all!,

I bring to your notice that the Norms and ethics topic became reservations issue. Lets change the title as well.

 

[sangom]

Sangom Sir,
My comments were certainly not sarcastic, but perhaps a step towards better debating. In a game, there would be one side which will be the victor - in a debate there may be innumerable players and all could be gainers, if not winners.

I now understand your view.

I see your comment as a positive response. If at least some common grounds are achieved, the forum would have well served its purpose

One thing that can be done by all of us is to make our people who are still conscious of their sub-castes, to come out of such narrow outlook.
Second, we can appreciate inter-caste marriages instead of despising them as something of a great sin.
Third, we should, each one of us try to learn how the hindu religion has taken the present shape, from the earliest evidence available in the Rigveda; we should also see and convince ourselves that the vedas etc., are not "apaurusheya" - God revealed - as is believed by the orthodox among us.
We should also become aware that our most popular divinities like Rama, Krishna, Hanuman, Ganesa, etc., are characters from Puranic fiction, just like Jesus (who at least was a real person) and hence our religion is just like any other religion. All this requires impartial study of our religious texts which some people can do and write about in forums like this, so that this awareness spreads.
We can take a decision not to promote God-men, God-women and, to that extent, stay away from such people, even if the temptation to go to them for some quick results, is very powerful.

I request you to add/delete items so that we get a final list.

...But, whosoever would come, have to be from the young. Whether it was Adhi Shankara or Vivekananda, they did whatever they thought, in their prime. The reforms to be accepted have to be spearheaded by a learned person in prime youth. I mean, contribution would be meaningful if people realise that they are not wasting their time in replying and participating in the forum. That is why there is exit of some people. The debates have to maintain and lead us to some thing concrete and not just take us into oblivion after the initial euphoria and enthusiasm.

The youngsters of our community IMO have no doubts about what they should do in their lives and how to go about it; they know that learning the Hindu scriptures by rote and then going hungry most of the days, is not a good aim of life. They know that those who are lucky among our people who thrive by giving கதாகாலக்ஷேபம் have made it good in their lives by luck, the right connections, etc., many who learnt in the வேதபாடசாலை have become quite rich as purohits, but for each such success story, there are several who have ended up in poverty as well. Hence our younger generation is not likely to get attracted in such avocations and none is likely to take up the task of uplifting the community. Many will IMO become, in due course, NRIOs and dissolve into a mixture of cultures. Hence, it is not realistic to expect another Vivekananda or Sankara in the prime of youth to come to the uplift of the Tamil brahmins (pl. note that all our woes are about TBs only, we do not know whether brahmins in other areas feel similar difficulties). The problems we discuss here are those which are felt as important by a group of people above 50; this group will dwindle to very near zero in another 20 years and the community of TBs, or whatever is left of it, at that time, will take care of itself. This being my view, I feel we have to find a remedy for our perceived problems, by ourselves.

 

[sangom]

Dear Shri Ramamurthy,

I forgot to add one point while talking about reforms to our TB community, etc., which I just posted.

There is one Swami Udit Chaitanya (I don't know more details about him) a young man who gives Bhagavatam discourses in TV. It seems (I have heard it from someone who is an ardent listener of his discourses,so this is second-hand info.) he has said that the soul of a dead person invariably gets reborn within 8 days of death and so there is no relevance to any of the ceremonies after the "sanchayanam" on the day after cremation, which is a mark of temporal respect paid by us to the body of the deceased person, just as a garlanded photo in the house. According to him Tarpanam, Sraaddham etc., are just unnecessary rituals which benefit the priesthood only.

If some social reformer should come and lay down codes of conduct like this, will the TB community accept?

 

[Nara]

....Present reservation system is totally flawed.

Dear RVR sir, the reservation system as it prevails in India surely has flaws, and some unscrupulous people exploit these flaws for their personal benefit. But to make a judgment like the system is 'totally flawed" you have to provide more solid data.

With all its flaws the reservation system has worked in a systematic fashion to lift up long oppressed peoples. I will try to gather some statistics and present it here.

What Dalits want first and foremost is what the TBs take so for granted that they can't even understand what it means to them, and that is "self respect". Please watch the India Untouchable movie. It shows how far we have come as nation, not very far.

Cheers!

 

[RVR]

Prof Nara,

Please go through the article of an eminent professor of Jawaharlal Nehru university.

CC June 2006 -- Special Report

He has suggested multiple factors including caste for providing reservation and the same is self regulating by which if a person reaches higher positions in society, he loses points to claim reservation.

Is there any listeners for such intellectuals?

All the best

 

[nachi naga]

when people talk of untouchables,it sounds so ancient...we have moved long from such silly behaviours.equality reigns.navaneetha chora gopal...

 

[Nara]

....He has suggested multiple factors including caste for providing reservation and the same is self regulating by which if a person reaches higher positions in society, he loses points to claim reservation.

Yes RVR sir, I am aware of some of these reform attempts and I do support such efforts that try to take a multiplicity of factors into account. This report presents a rudimentary framework for such a system. It deserves further study. A starting point would be a through trade-off analysis between the added complexity of the multi-index system -- the inevitable result of which is more scope for abuse and fraud -- and the added precision in targeting the genuinely deserving population.

Reservation is a politically charged issue. No reform is possible unless it is worked out politically.

Anyway, RVR, my question was about your claim that the system is "totally broken". Please provide some data to back this up.

Cheers!

 

[RVR]

Prof Nara,

Poor and rural among backwards and daliths are being deprived under the present system.

Caste based reservation is cornered by the elite among BC and SC/ST mostly in Cities and Towns. Last time when I visited my village, I saw lot of youngsters qualified as B A, B Sc,
B Com etc among daliths and BCs who are just idling without any productive employment. While their city counterparts speak English and corner Call Center, BPO jobs with same qualifications, these boys are talking of extremism (Maoist/Naxalite type). Since Governments both in Central and State are reducing recruitment, they cannot go to Govt jobs also. Please read the following article where it mentions 30% reduction in Govt Jobs.

What happened to slashing govt jobs?

They don't want to work in the farm anymore and at the same time they are not getting white collar jobs also. These boys will turn into Naxalism in due course if their grievances are not addressed immediately.

I am not asking for reservation for Brahmins and once I wrote in this forum that even if the government brings 100% reservation for SC/ST, BC etc, it is not going to affect the Brahmin community. But the reservation has to reach really downtrodden people among these communities.

Government of India has launched a Unique Identy card

Unique Identification Authority of India - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Nandan Nilekani ex Managing Director of Infosys is Chief of this project with cabinet rank position.

Nandan Nilekani - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Purpose of this project is to reduce corruption in identifying the beneficiaries of various Government scheme.

Let us hope that this project is successful and corruption is eliminated to a great extent.

All the best

 

[Nara]

...Poor and rural among backwards and daliths are being deprived under the present system.

Sorry RVR, none of what you are saying in this post is about the question I raised.

thanks ...

 

[RVR]

Sorry RVR, none of what you are saying in this post is about the question I raised.

thanks ...

The present reservation system doesn't help rural poor SC, ST, BCs. Hence the system is not achieving its objectives and producing naxalites & maoists.

If the present reservation helped these people, then the present naxalite problem affecting one third of the nation would not have developed. Educated unemployed is the breeding ground of extremism.

All the best

 

[Nara]

The present reservation system doesn't help rural poor SC, ST, BCs. Hence the system is not achieving its objectives and producing naxalites & maoists.

If the present reservation helped these people, then the present naxalite problem affecting one third of the nation would not have developed. Educated unemployed is the breeding ground of extremism.

Dear RVR sir, the naxalite problem has many causes, going far beyond the benefits of reservation not reaching the ST population. But that does not mean the system is totally broken. For starters, this says nothing about the extent to which rural SC are benefited or not.

It is clear to me now that this is just your impression based on disconnected and episodic observation. IMO, these are not sufficient to declare the reservation system totally broken. Only hard data can show that, something like SC % of high school graduates going to college from cities and from rural areas, and a summary of income distribution of SCs getting reservation benefits.

signing off .....

 

[suraju06]

//Nara: Dismantling centuries old institutionalized oppression is not going to be free of any cost to those who belonged to the privileged castes. The poor among the privileged pay the cost more in proportion to the past advantages they enjoyed, and that is too bad, not fair, but to achieve a bigger "fair" some smaller "unfair" things are unavoidable.//

Dear Mr. Nara, Are you not aware that the inclusion of the category MBC was a fraud perpetrated on the Indians by the crafty scheming politicians? The reservation was ok as long as it was for SC/ST (dalits) alone. The original Constitution of India included a schedule in which it had listed the dalits and that is why they were called Scheduled caste and Scheduled Tribes (SC/ST) communities. But later because of political expediency and vote-bank politics a new category MBC was created and the reservations were extended to them. And who are these MBCs? The same people who were the oppressors of the dalits for centuries. Our country is the only country in the world where oppressors are getting rewarded for what they did. Brahmins are not bothered about not getting the reservation. They can manage the situation. But they are certainly against the fraud that has been perpetrated in the name of social engineering/positive discrimination/etc., There is no grumbling that dalits have been given reservation benefits. But what about the thevars, gounders, nadars,reddiars and vanniyars? Just because these communities form the bulk of tamil population they have given themselves this bonanza by pulling the wool over the people’s eyes.This is not a strawman argument --> There is a nomadic tribe living in the border between Tamilnadu and Andhra and its name is Kondareddy. But every reddiar boy in Tamilnadu has claimed the benefit of kondareddy community in getting admission to medical college, engineering college, getting lower bars for entry and promotion into the IAS and IPS cadres. This is some justice and….some cost!! Here what is fair and what is unfair could you please explain? And what cost has these oppressor communities paid for their centuries of atrocities and easy ways? May be you think the reward of reservation is the ‘cost’. Other than the oft repeated and hollow “intellectual justification” do you have any thing to say about this blatant fraud and naked display of raw cunning?

//In a liberal democratic society, these trade-offs are made through the political process. The choices the present day society in India has made, with reservation for Dalits, MBC, etc. are immensely more just than the choices that were made in the past when it was Brahmins and other FCs who were in-charge.//

To make it less flawed if the politicians had identified economic status as the basic and foremost defining criterion(because every other weight pulling down a community from developed status gets resolved into that one factor) for development level there would have been a healthy tradeoff by way of the rich bearing the cost of development of poor. In India that was not to be. The reservation for Dalits is just and needed whereas the same for MBC is a fraud and you have added an “etc.” ominously. This is not strawman argument either --> And when the amendment was made to the constitution to include MBCs it was ‘carefully’ decided that these MBC need not be added to the already existing schedule of castes. The MBCs perhaps thought it below their dignity to be bracketed with dalits! Do you understand what choices were made and by whom the choices were made? And who was really in charge?

//Brahmins are so appalled and morally outraged at the discrimination they experience at the time of college admission. Compare that with the past oppression and discrimination of the Dalits that enveloped the entirety of their lives. Not a single aspect of their lives was left free. Complete ban on education was only one aspect of this all pervading oppression. If such "blanket discrimination" is to be applied in the reverse, then all FCs must be prevented even from primary education.//

Brahmins are not appalled and outraged at the reservation for dalits. Even without any reservation Brahmins can manage as they have been managing. But they are certainly appalled at the fraud that is going in the name of social justice. Do you think the “blanket discrimination in reverse” is not in operation now? If you are in Tamilnadu you would know it.

.//After they leave college, unless they get into government service, the FCs don't experience any caste based discrimination. They continue to benefit from all the social and cultural assets passed on from generation to generation over centuries, living among highly educated and successful family members, able to take advantage of all the opportunities that arise. Compare that with a Dalit, he/she is probably the very first member in their family history to graduate from college, unable to even recognize opportunities that may exist for advancement//

Then what about those among Brahmins who tries to be the first member in the family taking a shot at the graduation? Is it your case that all Brahmins are graduates and there are no Brahmins who have not studied beyond 8th class? My dear friend, either you are far away for too long from reality or you are living in your own make-believe world. Reservation in India as it exists today is hopelessly flawed and irrational and no amount of victimhood and humanright arguments can make it rational.


Dear friend, all these are my arguments about the subject in hand and nothing personal.Cheers.

 

[kunjuppu]

suraju,

do you think that we TBs played our political cards wrong in handling the dravidian parties? it is often said, that in politics, there are no permanent enemies, only permanent interests.

this appears not to be working for us. i think starting from periyar's days, his words stung us. perhaps there was too much truth in them. either we had to agree & change or fight for the status quo.

since 1967, when the dravidian revolution captured power, overnight we lost our standing, even though the power base only came to be eroded gradually. how come, when we did not reasses our strategy, to continue to be an effective player in tamil nadu politics.

i request, challenge, beseech and ask you - to give some thoughts to the failure of our political leadership to find an effective way to work with the dravidian parties ie mainly the dmk. we all know, that dmk, and its sister organizations like pmk or dmdmk or future *dmks will all pay lip service to periyar and anna.

are we going to continue stand aside, and be a whipping boy at election times, or are we going to use our supposed smarts to ensure that our poor gets some benefits from an increasingly prosperous tamil nadu?

i wish you to address only from a political standpoint, and avoid all the musings about ancient wrongs or manu's laws.

hope you don't mind. thank you.

 

[sangom]

suraju,

do you think that we TBs played our political cards wrong in handling the dravidian parties? it is often said, that in politics, there are no permanent enemies, only permanent interests.

this appears not to be working for us.

Dear Kunjuppu,

Did the TBs have any political spokesperson or leader by the time the DMK came to power? If at all there was one, it was highly ineffective.

 

[Nara]

Dear Raju, Greetings!

.... This is not a strawman argument

I agree, in this response you present a cogent counter argument, free in the most part, of any logical fallacies. I say in the most part because of your characterization, "hollow intellectual justification" which I think is gratuitous, but in the light of the reasonableness of the rest of the arguments, I think it must be overlooked, and I do.

As I gather, your points are the following:

• Without any reservation Brahmins can manage as they have been managing.
• The reservation is ok as long as it was for SC/ST (dalits) alone.
• Inclusion of the category MBC is a fraud.
• To make the system less flawed economic status must be the basic and foremost defining criterion.

I do not have any major problem with the above, but I am not as agitated about MBC as you are. MBC is not a monolithic group. There are many in this group who are equal to SC/ST for all intents and purposes even though they are not subjected to the daily humiliations SC/ST suffer.

A better targeting of the reservation is certainly welcome, but not possible in the present political environment. For this I fault the FCs. In his treatise "Annihilation of caste", some 70 years ago Dr. B.R. Ambedkar warned of the polarization of society along caste lines. No less an authority than the Father of the Nation, the Mahathma himself, took issue with his warnings. At that time, the FCs controlled all the levers of power. The current political climate, IMO, is a consequence of ignoring BRA's warning.

I already discussed the fraud you are referring to, which cannot be condoned. But, we need more than just anecdotes to assess the real extent of the fraud. Further, this is not a fault of the reservation system, the problem is corruption that permeates all spheres of public life in India. Solve the corruption problem, the fraud will disappear. But of course this will happen when the proverbial hell freezes over.

I don't agree that economic status must be the foremost consideration. A broadly educated populace is in the vital interest of the society. As I stated in post #134, I will support a well-thought out multi-index criterion that includes economic status as one of the factors.

Cheers!

 

[kunjuppu]

Dear Kunjuppu,

Did the TBs have any political spokesperson or leader by the time the DMK came to power? If at all there was one, it was highly ineffective.

in 1967, rajaji was a spent force. his swatantra party was one of elitist with no mass base.

in retrospect, i think, cho could have risen up to the challenge of an astute politician. instead, his ego got the best of him. he called himself the perpetual opposition, which meant, that he did not know how to maneovre to power, and get into the gut wrenching daily routine of adminstration.

it is easy to criticize. it is extremely difficult to govern, especially given the lethargy and set ways of our bureaucracy. if at all india remains united, it will be due to the combined lethargy of our bureaucracy.

back to cho, a great opportunity lost. he has now turned rightward towards BJP. instead had he tried to work out with the DMK, we may have been in better position now. not that we did not try. v.p. raman tentatively took the first step in accepting advocate general post under MK. but soon found himself fish out of water - DMK hierarchy then was the survival of the fittest, and barring the to layer, that may be true even to this day. if a vattam or maavattam seyalalar does not produce results, off goes his head.

 

[KRS]

Dear Professor Nara Ji,

You have said,

"Dismantling centuries old institutionalized oppression is not going to be free of any cost to those who belonged to the privileged castes. The poor among the privileged pay the cost more in proportion to the past advantages they enjoyed, and that is too bad, not fair, but to achieve a bigger "fair" some smaller "unfair" things are unavoidable."

First of all, let me say that your assertion that those who belonged to the privileged castes have to pay a price does not make sense to me. Why should they pay a price, when the past inequities are not allowed to happen by the force of law? If the 'oppressed' can be brought up to the level of the privileged, why punish the so called privilegeds' progenies?

We do not arrest the children of a person who has murdered someone. Your insistence that a 'class' of people who have nothing to do with the supposed past crimes of some from their class should be punished for those crimes, have neither any moral or ethical foundation. More so, when the concept of a democratic society is here, where such past practices can be dealt with by law as the society sees fit. You have said that the laws alone are not sufficient. So, are you advocating an ex-parte decision to punish these innocent folks? One should look at the examples of such instances in history - from Hitler to Mao to Stalin to Pol Pot, there are millions and millions of people wantonly eliminated for the supposed misdeeds they and their forefathers did, because, as the theory goes, for the society's sake the privileged must pay a price. Going with this logic, however small one thinks the punishment may be.

Besides, there is another issue that is a little troubling. Please read this study:

Changing Educational Inequalities in India in the Context of Affirmative Action

This is a comprehensive 2008 study looking at the educational status of the disadvantaged groups and the effects of what they call as the 'Positive Discriminatory Policies' (Quota System) and essentially come to the conclusion they can not make any connections with these groups advancement in college education (which by the way did not show any marked improvement) and the primary/secondary school educational levels increased but only at the rates enjoyed by all groups, signifying that the quota system with all it's associated costs, clearly did not accomplish much. All this, after almost 50 years after the implementation of that system!

I do not disagree that the quota system should not have been implemented at the time it was, because that was the easiest, emotional and obvious way to demostrate that the underprivileged are being pulled up. We have to also remember that at that time there was no role model to patent this system on and India was the first to try something like this in such a large manner. Instead of putting in metrics to monitor the effectiveness of such a program, the government chose instead to expand the scope to OBCs. This is the problem. You have a system that has not done even remotely the job it was supposed to do, it also put and reinforced and continue the tag of SC, ST and OBC to the people who benefit, again keeping the labels from the past. If castes are not recognized in India, she has no business making laws to perpetuate such tags.

Instead, it is high time for the government to stop punishing some of her citizens and start helping ALL disadvantaged, meaning mostly poor. Most importantly throw away the quota system in to trash where it belongs, and instead replace with a village/urban support system fot the poor kids to get well prepared to compete in the world after high school on equal footing. This is costly, but well worth spent. This, I see, is the only way to improve the conditions of disadvantaged, while at the same time insure that the brightest and the best get to contribute in the high levels jobs, so that India can build a solid foundation for thye future. This will not happen if the government continuously goes after the job of punishing some of the citizens, in the name of justice.

Regards,
KRS

 

[Nara]

Dear KRS, Greetings!

Please see my response to Raju on the broader issue of reservation for SC/ST/MBC. I will make a few short comments below.

If the 'oppressed' can be brought up to the level of the privileged, why punish the so called privilegeds' progenies?

If only this was possible there wouldn't be any debate.

We do not arrest the children of a person who has murdered someone.

I don't think restricting the privileged minority of 3% of the population to compete 30% of seats is in any way shape or form, punishment of any kind. This is a complete straw man argument.

Besides, there is another issue that is a little troubling. Please read this study:

Changing Educational Inequalities in India in the Context of Affirmative Action

If anything, this study seems to bolster my case. They seem to say, even after so many years, the disparities based on caste still continue, and there is no evidence the so called creamy layer is disproportionately benefiting from the reservation system.

You have a system that has not done even remotely the job it was supposed to do,

This is not something that can simply be asserted. The study you cite only shows a need for redoubling the effort. You have to provide more than this to establish that the present system is such a failure that it must be completely scrapped.

If castes are not recognized in India, she has no business making laws to perpetuate such tags.

Please see the India Untouched series and you will see why caste conscious upliftment is essential in a society in which hierarchical caste structure permeates every corner of the society.

This, I see, is the only way to improve the conditions of disadvantaged, while at the same time insure that the brightest and the best get to contribute in the high levels jobs, so that India can build a solid foundation for thye future.

IMO, this merit argument is not valid. What is the difference in merit between a cut off of 199 and 198? I presented an analysis of the data from Anna University 2009 admission cut off marks. It is abundantly clear merit is not lost due to the reservation system.

Further, even if merit can be precisely measured with margin of error smaller than the differences in cut of marks among different caste classifications, merit need not be the only consideration for governments to allocate its scarce resources. What criteria are important is for the political system to work out. India has worked it out, and merit is very much a part of that system. Tamil Nadu being the state with maximum % reservation still seems to score very well in the multi-dimensional poverty index Kunjuppu cited earlier today. I understand that you don't like that system. That is fine, you are entitled to your opinion. I happen to think the data shows it is not an unfair system, given the complexities, and has produced good results.

Cheers!

 

[sangom]

In the long discussion about reservations, the wrongs done to the Dalits in the past etc., I have taken a stand similar to that of Nara, and I still do so. But it looks to me now that those who argue against (KRS,RVR and others) may also be having a valid reason for their views. Perhaps it is that in the current Indian scenario, "only the crying baby gets the milk" and so instead of analysing the reasons for the past discriminations etc., as a crime of only the ancient brahmins(by which the other FCs also enjoyed as much as or even more than the brahmins did, at the cost of the Dalits, - some of the FC groups still continue to heap atrocities on the Dalits even at present) and thus allowing the other FCs to feel free of any blame, we should use our time and energy to focus on the pitiable state of many of the TBs (may not be a high percentage, but still sizeable) and seek whatever redressal is possible for their grievances, from and through the existing governmental set-up.

This is also quite meaninful. Perhaps it is the practical course to take. The people concerned did not, for some reason, state it so clearly. I suppose my analysis is correct.

 

[wrongan]

reservations

Dear nara, When I visited US I had an oppertunity to freely discuss all topics with people who gathered for a seminar.In private We Indians and other persons of US Rodisia,and other African countries likewise were discussing on reservation policy.Like a hammerblow A senior black sociologist from US has said' in US we fought for PARITY but in india the fight is for PRIORITY and hence it will never succeed.

 

[RVR]

Sri Sangom Sir,

My views are in blue.

In the long discussion about reservations, the wrongs done to the Dalits in the past etc., I have taken a stand similar to that of Nara, and I still do so.

Absolutely no problem. You can have your views.

But it looks to me now that those who argue against (KRS,RVR and others) may also be having a valid reason for their views.

Thanks Sir.

Perhaps it is that in the current Indian scenario, "only the crying baby gets the milk" and so instead of analysing the reasons for the past discriminations etc., as a crime of only the ancient brahmins(by which the other FCs also enjoyed as much as or even more than the brahmins did, at the cost of the Dalits, - some of the FC groups still continue to heap atrocities on the Dalits even at present) and thus allowing the other FCs to feel free of any blame,

Absolutely correct. TB community is not at involved in the present conflicts with daliths or any other community.


we should use our time and energy to focus on the pitiable state of many of the TBs (may not be a high percentage, but still sizeable) and seek whatever redressal is possible for their grievances, from and through the existing governmental set-up.

This is exactly what most of us are interested. We don't want to go to the government with a begging bowl and let us leave such activities to organisations like `*******' etc. Even if the government brings 100% reservation for other communities, let us not bother. But let us all unite and help poor among our community to come up in life. For doing this I was termed as `castiest' by one of the honourable member of this forum and I am least bothered about such provocations. I decided to keep my silence and continue to do service to our community.


This is also quite meaninful. Perhaps it is the practical course to take. The people concerned did not, for some reason, state it so clearly. I suppose my analysis is correct.

I am also of the same opinion that helping poor among our community members is the right thing to do under the present circumstances and your analysis is perfectly correct.

All the best

 

[Raghy]

Sri.Nara, Greetings.

Thank you Raghy, I cannot argue with a person who expresses this view.

thank you ....

That is fine. I openly expressed my mind. That Pandit tried justifying a load of crap, caste based discrimination, by quoting Vedas; You were trying to justify a load of crap, unfair (by your own words) caste based reservation. I saw both the arguments as utter nonsense.

Folks, I downloaded data from Anna University web site for the year 2009 and did a quick analysis. Across all the branches of engineering, the difference in the minimum cut off marks between OC and BC was no more than 3 across the board, for all branches.

Between OC and SC the difference was as low as 1.8 for Electronics and Communications, and as high as 15.8 for Printing Technology.

To me at least, this shows that the reservation system is not letting in unqualified BC and SC students in place of qualified FCs.

This is only for Anna University.

I counted over 10 engineering colleges between Kanchipurm and Poonamalle, seen from the highway. There are more that could not be seen from the highway. In 1973, a FC student with 70% average in Maths/Physics/ Chemistry could not get admission in the Guindy Engineering College; where as a Harijan student with an average of 55% could walk in. That situation changed because the nukber of colleges increased by many folds. I actually saw three students throwing away (2 X FC and 1 X BC) admission letters from Anna University last month; They did not get their preference, but the private colleges offered what they wanted (no capitaion fees involved). No wonder the cut off score is reduced..there is no takers!

What Dalits want first and foremost is what the TBs take so for granted that they can't even understand what it means to them, and that is "self respect". Please watch the India Untouchable movie. It shows how far we have come as nation, not very far.

I really can't understand how caste based reservations would bring 'self respect' to Dalits? Caste based reservations 'punished' the poor and simple persons of few communities. The persomns living in villages and small towns were the worst affected. Mostly such persons may not have discriminated anybody; on the other hand, the persons who are rich and powerful quite easily go around this idiotic caste reservation policies; such persons continued to discriminate. leave alone Dalits but anyone unfortunate enough to be poor.

One can not twist one'sd arm into treating others equitably; it has to be the nature of the person, otherwise it won't happen. The Madhurai scenes in the 'India Untouched' is a classic example to show that the caste based reservations have not worked. Naturally, one should not expect a load of crap to work either.

Cheers!

 

[happyhindu]

This is exactly what most of us are interested. We don't want to go to the government with a begging bowl and let us leave such activities to organisations like `*******' etc. Even if the government brings 100% reservation for other communities, let us not bother. But let us all unite and help poor among our community to come up in life. For doing this I was termed as `castiest' by one of the honourable member of this forum and I am least bothered about such provocations. I decided to keep my silence and continue to do service to our community.

RVR,

I used to think there is a prob with the way i write (since i do find it difficult to put things across in words). But now i am convinced there is a prob with the way you understand. Or rather, with the way you WANT TO understand (imo, you seem to love the 'victimhood attention'..)

According to you, one member termed you a 'casteist' for your charity work. Why have you not named me directly?

Can you please go thru all my past postings and let me know if i have called you a casteist for your charity work? So people who help poor people are to be called 'casteist' according to you?

You very well know that I called you a casteist for your "selective rationalism" which you apply with a caste bias.

What you call provocation, is possibly nothing but your own ego. And i (have and) can very well mirror you.

If this is the way you mis-use my postings, i wud rather prefer that my posts are present on this forum for a few more months (so praveen, i do not want my posts deleted immediately).