Do we follow some norms and ethics in this forum

[happyhindu]

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I had hoped to never post again. I notice that my posts are not yet deleted. And therefore logged in to remind Praveen.

i happened to skim thru this thread, have not read the posts at length. Some observations:

1) Nobody is talking about the past. It is about the present.

2) Nobody is talking about individual ‘brahmins’ or how each individual toiled in the past or toils today. Nobody is blaming the regular 'brahmins'. It is all about the establishment (that is, the gurus) or religious leaders who deal with religion in public.

3) Those who keep claiming that ‘brahmins’ were never oppressors; and only the other ‘upper castes” were /are oppressors would do well to remember that the system was created by the shastras; and till date it is the ‘brahmanical' establishments who instruct people to discriiminate socially.

Those who think that 'brahmanical' gurus are a blessing to the world, please watch this 'movie':

1) YouTube - India Untouched - The Movie - Part 1
2) YouTube - India Untouched - The Movie - Part 2
3) YouTube - IN SCHOOLS - India Untouched - The Movie - Part 3
4) YouTube - India Untouched - THe Movie - Part 4
5) YouTube - India Untouched - THe Movie - Part 5
6) YouTube - sikhs in India Untouched - THe Movie - Part 6
7) YouTube - Sikhs in India Untouched (in Punjab) - The Movie - Part 7
8) YouTube - India Untouched - THe Movie - Part 8
9) YouTube - India Untouched - THe Movie - Part 9

The whole movie may not be great (eg: why wud i invite unknown ppl to my wedding just bcoz of 'caste'). But it is 99 percent a great movie.

If you have no time, just watch only this for the Kashi high priest who has blinded himself with sunglasses:YouTube - India Untouched - The Movie - Part 2 – It is for those who claim ‘brahmins’ do not 'oppress' TODAY.

It is easy to handcuff the typical anti-constitution “upper caste” non-brahmin who extracts his “respect” by force, by harassing the “lower castes”. Yes the law can and should do that – if the law is weak, let people get together to ensure it is enforced. And hope media takes on such 'upper caste' dons and goons more often.

But how about those who provide the “spiritual justification” for social-discrimination? What should be done with them? How are they to be dealt with? Legally ? Socially ? Spiritually? Since you are 'brahmins', please discuss this within yourselves. Esp those who want to expose 'frauds' (i suppose some of you also wear similar sunglasses to blind yourself to what really is the biggest 'spiritual fraud' on earth).

Goodbye and best wishes.

 

[uvsharma]

Mr RVR

Again certain elements seems to provoke you. Please ignore such elements.

Ignoring is the best form of insulting.

 

[KRS]

Dear Srimathi HH Ji,

I think that this Forum would be lesser if you decide not to post. Please reconsider your decision.

Regarding the support for discrimination through claims of divine edict - yes, the Brahmins have done this to support what the rest of the society wanted or would accept. Dalits sprang first of the ex communicated people banned from villages, mainly because a man from a lower caste married up.

My statements about other high castes is to remind the Professor that Brahmins acted in a way to prop up others; discrimination as well.

Regards,
KRS

 

[sangom]

I had hoped to never post again. I notice that my posts are not yet deleted. And therefore logged in to remind Praveen.

i happened to skim thru this thread, have not read the posts at length. Some observations:

1) Nobody is talking about the past. It is about the present.

2) Nobody is talking about individual ‘brahmins’ or how each individual toiled in the past or toils today. Nobody is blaming the regular 'brahmins'. It is all about the establishment (that is, the gurus) or religious leaders who deal with religion in public.

3) Those who keep claiming that ‘brahmins’ were never oppressors; and only the other ‘upper castes” were /are oppressors would do well to remember that the system was created by the shastras; and till date it is the ‘brahmanical' establishments who instruct people to discriiminate socially.

Those who think that 'brahmanical' gurus are a blessing to the world, please watch this 'movie':

...
The whole movie may not be great (eg: why wud i invite unknown ppl to my wedding just bcoz of 'caste'). But it is 99 percent a great movie.

If you have no time, just watch only this for the Kashi high priest who has blinded himself with sunglasses:YouTube - India Untouched - The Movie - Part 2 – It is for those who claim ‘brahmins’ do not 'oppress' TODAY.

It is easy to handcuff the typical anti-constitution “upper caste” non-brahmin who extracts his “respect” by force, by harassing the “lower castes”. Yes the law can and should do that – if the law is weak, let people get together to ensure it is enforced. And hope media takes on such 'upper caste' dons and goons more often.

But how about those who provide the “spiritual justification” for social-discrimination? What should be done with them? How are they to be dealt with? Legally ? Socially ? Spiritually? Since you are 'brahmins', please discuss this within yourselves. Esp those who want to expose 'frauds' (i suppose some of you also wear similar sunglasses to blind yourself to what really is the biggest 'spiritual fraud' on earth).

Goodbye and best wishes.

HH,

First let me re-iterate that you should not insist on deleting your posts because it will be a loss for this forum to lose your points of view from the records, however controversial and unacceptable, they may be to me or for anyone else. If your posts are deleted, the responses thereto will also lose validity, then those which sided with your posts and the counters will also lose relevance. So, I request you not to press for deletion of your posts and I request Shri. Praveen, Shri. Silverfox and others to keep the records intact.

As you might have by now understood from your experience in this forum, we are trying to change the mindset of a group of people who have been so indoctrinated that they do not have the ability for rational thinking. As an example, I will tell you of one case. There is one orthodox brahmin lady who (I think) observed the three days' impurity during menses very faithfully. Now she is old and her daughter, a college student, does not want any such segregation for her. The lady has had to yield to the dictates of her daughter but does not allow the maid servant to enter the house during her periods, and does all cleaning etc., herself! When someone suggested to her that if her daughter can move about freely in the house including the kitchen, why not permit the servant maid to enter and clean the house, it seems the lady replied that her mind does not allow her to permit that.

Now, with such people no amount of discussion or facts will work; only compulsion of circumstances, like her daughter's insistence, will make them change. Similarly there are many among us who are trapped by some mental blocks or the other and they are unable to come out of those traps except when compelled. Compulsion we cannot do of course and so we have to leave it at that.

I will view the videos and then post my comments. Meanwhile continue your membership and contribute your views as you were doing; objections, resistance, etc., will be there (remember you also had some misconception about me in the beginning), but we have to bear with all that since we also learn a lot from this forum.

 

[T R RAMAMURTHY]

Sangom Sir,
My comments were certainly not sarcastic, but perhaps a step towards better debating. In a game, there would be one side which will be the victor - in a debate there may be innumerable players and all could be gainers, if not winners.

Sir,
You said
Cannot each one of us think and start that reform ourselves from our very households? Just as an example, I refer you to a thread regarding a non-vegetarian cook. See the inhibitions even in younger minds and how the discussions there ended ultimately. I don't think some one from outside can go and compel each person to follow a specific set of rules. We can discuss, exchange views and information, etc., but ultimately it is for the individual concerned to decide.
I see your comment as a positive response. If at least some common grounds are achieved, the forum would have well served its purpose
To end this reply, whether it is "debate" or "banter" I have one humble opinion.
The forum is seen in different ways by different people - similar to how six blind men perceived the elephant.
There are people who have unlimited time at their disposal and they can keep writing - there are others who are short of time.
There was an anecdote during my early employment days. One senior TB from Palghat (who was a non conformist) who was about to retire, in the late seventies mentioned it to me. He mentioned of one of his trips to Switzerland where he was shown a booklet which had a nice cover and title "What can you do in life after sixty" .. With some pictures the booklet started and there was message to turn over each leaf. At the last page, it mentioned that "Did you not notice all the empty pages - you can not do anything after sixty". I am not mentioning this as banter. The point to suggest is that for some this forum could be Pozhuthu Pokku. For some it is serious business. For a few others, some other thing. But, whosoever would come, have to be from the young. Whether it was Adhi Shankara or Vivekananda, they did whatever they thought, in their prime. The reforms to be accepted have to be spearheaded by a learned person in prime youth. I mean, contribution would be meaningful if people realise that they are not wasting their time in replying and participating in the forum. That is why there is exit of some people. The debates have to maintain and lead us to some thing concrete and not just take us into oblivion after the initial euphoria and enthusiasm. Namaskarams Sangom Sir.
Respects
T R Ramamurthy
Let noble thoughts come to us from all sides.

 

[KRS]

Dear sri Sangom Ji,

Please bear with me for commenting on your conversation with Srimathi HH Ji.

Your example below and your comment on her not thinking rationally perfectly illustrate the point I was trying so hard to make.

First of all, probably it was very painful for the old Lady to change on the compulsions of her daughter. I am sure her love for her daughter allowed her to accept the situation vis-a-vis her daughter.

But then regarding the servant she could not accept it. Why? Because her 'BELIEF' was that it would be hurtful to that servant to come in to contact with her during menses.

So, is this wrong? Seems to me that as long as there is no hurt involved, why not allow the old Lady to keep her peace? If she chooses to segregate herself, what harm is it to others? Why shoud she be 'compelled' to change her ways?

Regards,
KRS

HH,

First let me re-iterate that you should not insist on deleting your posts because it will be a loss for this forum to lose your points of view from the records, however controversial and unacceptable, they may be to me or for anyone else. If your posts are deleted, the responses thereto will also lose validity, then those which sided with your posts and the counters will also lose relevance. So, I request you not to press for deletion of your posts and I request Shri. Praveen, Shri. Silverfox and others to keep the records intact.

As you might have by now understood from your experience in this forum, we are trying to change the mindset of a group of people who have been so indoctrinated that they do not have the ability for rational thinking. As an example, I will tell you of one case. There is one orthodox brahmin lady who (I think) observed the three days' impurity during menses very faithfully. Now she is old and her daughter, a college student, does not want any such segregation for her. The lady has had to yield to the dictates of her daughter but does not allow the maid servant to enter the house during her periods, and does all cleaning etc., herself! When someone suggested to her that if her daughter can move about freely in the house including the kitchen, why not permit the servant maid to enter and clean the house, it seems the lady replied that her mind does not allow her to permit that.

Now, with such people no amount of discussion or facts will work; only compulsion of circumstances, like her daughter's insistence, will make them change. Similarly there are many among us who are trapped by some mental blocks or the other and they are unable to come out of those traps except when compelled. Compulsion we cannot do of course and so we have to leave it at that.

I will view the videos and then post my comments. Meanwhile continue your membership and contribute your views as you were doing; objections, resistance, etc., will be there (remember you also had some misconception about me in the beginning), but we have to bear with all that since we also learn a lot from this forum.

 

[tbs]

hi folks,
can any tell there is no descrimination on earth?...i can give a lot of examples from america/africa/europe/ australia.....but every body wants
talk about caste system ONLY IN INDIA AND ONLY BRAHMINS DID IT....and all others are good.....ONLY BRAHMINS ARE BAD AND
ONLY BRAHMINS PRACTISED CASTE SYSTEM....this is only myth....just read history of america/europians.or australians...
every wherre some kind of descrimination.....but in india whole blame goes to brahmins......every human race gone some kind of VARNA SYSTEM...
may be skin color or physical nature......

regards
tbs

 

[happyhindu]

I am an Indian.

I grew up in india. And i hope to return to live in india in near future.

I am interested only in India. I cannot be bothered about the social systems of australia, europe, etc. and as such, i definitely think they are far-far better off today.

There are 2 more in the series.

10) YouTube - India Untouched 10
11) Last part- YouTube - India Untouched 11

A huge thankyou to the makers of this movie -- Stalin, Nirmala, Sooraj, Anuradha and everyone who made it happen. Please continue to sensitise people thru media and make more movies like this.

 

[sangom]

Dear sri Sangom Ji,

Please bear with me for commenting on your conversation with Srimathi HH Ji.

Your example below and your comment on her not thinking rationally perfectly illustrate the point I was trying so hard to make.

First of all, probably it was very painful for the old Lady to change on the compulsions of her daughter. I am sure her love for her daughter allowed her to accept the situation vis-a-vis her daughter.

But then regarding the servant she could not accept it. Why? Because her 'BELIEF' was that it would be hurtful to that servant to come in to contact with her during menses.

So, is this wrong? Seems to me that as long as there is no hurt involved, why not allow the old Lady to keep her peace? If she chooses to segregate herself, what harm is it to others? Why shoud she be 'compelled' to change her ways?

Regards,
KRS

There is no one who can compel. But the servant left, this I did not write because she felt it was some discrimination against her on caste basis. I do not know what the lady is doing now because they went on transfer to some place in T. Nadu. This part I did not write because I felt it was not relevant. Now, you see how the action was viwed by the servant and its result!

 

[suraju06]

Nara:--Let me give a concrete example, Raju stated earlier in this very thread quite pithily, "நிறை குடம் தளும்பும். குறை குடமோ கூத்தாடும்." From the interactions we have had, I think this was a dart sent towards yours truly. By not stating it outright I am imagining, rightly or wrongly, that everyone must have gotten the message, but Raju can still maintain, why do you fret unless you think of yourself as one?
Sangom:--Actually I felt it was directed at me,

Dear Mr. Nara,
In your one man jury you have accused me, charged me, tried me and passed judgment all in a single breath. And you do not want me to say anything more either. Well that s fine. But because this happens to be a public forum, I would use my right to reply and say just this. I did not write those words aiming it at any one. Period. I do not want to say anything more about that sentence now as to how it came there, or why it is தளும்பும் and not தளும்பாது etc., because it would make me appear to be apologetic. I repeat, if I find any thing worthy, I will directly address you and argue it out. There is something else which worries me. That is that you should think at all on these lines. May be because I am not at all conciliatory in my arguments with you, or may be because you feel irritated that I am hopelessly lost in the orthodoxy you are perhaps interpreting my words with a sense of hurt. I am sorry about only this if it is so. At the end of the day, if it comes to that ,you go with your views and I go with my views. This being the bottom-line, there is no scope for anything personal here. I hope you agree with me. Cheers my dear friend.

 

[kunjuppu]

happy good to see you jump (reluctantly though) again into this forum. wear a thicker skin and enjoy the mental wrestling

raghy, the reason most nonveggies in india have nonveg food at odd internvals, is due to the cost of the meat. there was a study in kerala, and how when there was a lull in gulf jobs, families had to go without meat the alternate days. then it took a wise person to remind those families that they seldom had meat prior to the man in the family forsaking them, go far away and send them shekels to afford their comforts.

a great thread. personally i dont follow any norms, i think. hopefully ethical, but that is only a point of view.

as ramamurthy says, it appears some of us take it seriously, others banter. but should be that each one is fulfilled. which is why, i feel that when we contribute here, it is primarily for ourselves alone. let not someone or even the moderator influence in abandoning the forum. it should be a self choice, born out of boredom or sickness.

re rejuvenation of our values, i do not think any new vivekananda will be forthcoming. there is a vivekananda college in madras, which ignored all tenets of castelessness as taught by vivekananda and was a citadel of college brahmininsm till recently. the good news is that one by one, in every family, children, not all of them, but quite a number, discard those values or lapse out of them. i personally feel, that one day maybe in 100 years, we will wake up, and find that many things that bothered us, do not appear to be so anymore. but then the current forum members would be long gone by then from this planet.

 

[Nara]

Dear Raju, Greetings!

... And you do not want me to say anything more either. Well that s fine. But because this happens to be a public forum, I would use my right to reply and say just this.

No Raju, I did not say that, i.e. not wanting you to reply. All I said was for you to take it easy because I was not complaining.

There is something else which worries me. That is that you should think at all on these lines.

Yes, Raju, this is the point, when negative comments are made without naming anyone, everyone wonders whether the intended target was him/her. Yes, I thought probably I was the target, so did Shri sangom.

My point is not that people should not make negative comments, that is what gets the juices flowing, but only be up front and open about it. That is all.

cheers!

 

[Nara]

...Again certain elements seems to provoke you. Please ignore such elements.

Ignoring is the best form of insulting.

Sir, the certain element you are referring to is a respected member of this forum, HappyHindu. RVR is another respected member of this forum. They have a disagreement on the point of "Spiritual Frauds". I think they will be able to sort it out. Of course, if you have any cogent arguments I am sure many of us will be eager to hear.

IMO, it is not in the best interest of this forum to egg on one respected member to insult another, by ignoring or by any other means.

Cheers!

 

[Nara]

Dear Shri KRS, Greetings!

I think in principle there is a level of convergence of our opinions. Important and major differences are on tactics -- how to remedy past injustice. I think this is an acceptable outcome.

Few points:

• Passing laws will not remedy injustice, it is a necessary step, but not sufficient.
• With all its flaws and inefficiencies, the reservation system continues to uplift Dalits and MBCs.
• For age-old hatred to go away the source of hatred must be addressed. In this case, the supremacist ideology called Brahminism is at the core and the Brahmins are yet to address it in a forthright way
• The reservation system does not shut out FCs from education, it only makes it more expensive -- I think this is only fair, but, if you disagree, I will point to your statement, "life is not fair."

Cheers!

 

[Raghy]

Sri.Nara said:-

Sir, the certain element you are referring to is a respected member of this forum, HappyHindu. RVR is another respected member of this forum...........IMO, it is not in the best interest of this forum to egg on one respected member to insult another, by ignoring or by any other means.

Sri.Nara,

Greetings. You are one of the 'certain elements'. The other elements may be Sri.KRS, Sow.Happy Hindu and (Why not?) Sri.Kunjuppu may be! I second your advice regarding maitaining the best interest of the forum.

Cheers!

 

[Nara]

.. You are one of the 'certain elements'.

Yes Raghy, I am certainly an element, Ignaramium? Pseudosten may be, or HiddenAgendenem

Seriously, in the present context HH was the one meant, not that I am not an element as well, and if HH is an element, then I am happy to be one as well.

Cheers!

 

[Raghy]

Sri.Kunjuppu said:-

raghy, the reason most nonveggies in india have nonveg food at odd internvals, is due to the cost of the meat.

Sri.Kunjuppu, I don't think so.I visited my village only 3 weeks ago. When we went to the near by town, I was taken to restaurants my friends frequent. For three of us, the avearge bill would be between Rs.350 and Rs.400, every time. Good lite vegetarian food though. Where as, Biriyani stalls near the bus stand sell Biriyani cheaper! 6 of us went for lunch at Saravana Bhavan in Kanchipuram; the bill was Rs.992! (the meal was Rs.160 each). So, quality vegetarian food is not cheap. You may be refering about cooking in home......People in my village have more money..much more money than they ever had! One large section of the population was involved in 'hand loom', producing sarees in the past. Now, most of the hand looms are mechanised; Govt. supplies the first 500 units of electricity, free! Besides, the Govt. provides the thread and places order for 'Lungis', to be woven on labour contract. (Such lungis are given away to very poor persons and beggers, free of cost by the Govt.). To make the long story short, people have a decent disposable income. My village and neighbouring village prides with two very good quality English Medium schools, fee paying schools. Most of the children go to those schools!

No.....these people have turned away from non-vegitarian food, although they can afford it.

Cheers!

 

[Raghy]

Sow.Happy Hindu said:-

I had hoped to never post again. I notice that my posts are not yet deleted. And therefore logged in to remind Praveen.

Sow.Happy Hindu,

Greetings. Why you are becoming 'unhappy Hindu'? I request you not to ask to delete your posts. I request Sri.Pravenn not to delete those posts, please.

This forum or for that matter, any forum thrives only from differing opinions and discussions and debates. Your point of views are so different to the point of views of some other members. If you decide not to post, both such views may not come to light.

Cheers!

 

[KRS]

Dear Professor Ji,

There is only convergence in the fact that I agree that there were conduct/rules as laid out in some DharmaShastras that are now odious from the view point of today's mores. That's all.

After this we have major difference of opinion as to how to redress the situation. It is your opinion that the progeny of those deemed responsible as a group must be officially discriminated against by a modern government that is supposed to rule without regard to race, color, age or caste. Discrimination to me is odious, period.

Yes life is not fair. It is not fair in terms of folks being born in to various circumstances, dictated by the conditions in the society. It is not about how a democratic government treats one segment of her own people, piling on them discrimination, in the name of redress, while not taking care of those they purport to take care of. This type of blanket discrimination against a class of people in modern times is just not correct. You say that the FCs are not shut off - they just need to pay more and please tell me, how do the majority of FCs who are either poor or can not afford to pay, do that? You illustrate a case where a poor Dalit can not afford to go to medical school and you feel sympathetic to his situation and, please count me in as a person who is also sympathetic. I just do not stop there. I am sympathetic to all humanity who are in that situation, regardless of who they are. Because to punish someone and deny opportunities because of historical inequities is the most blatant inequity.

We have laws on books to change the mores/customs of a society as agreed on by the most. One can not say that they are not sufficient. Otherwise it becomes double jeopardy, meting out what we would in US term as unusual and cruel punishment.

The problem with any 'ism' is, be it "Communism', 'Capitalism', 'Brahminism', etc. is that the concept starts with idealism and it gets waylaid on the way to suit minority interests. God only knows, how many have lost their lives under the most ideological system called Communism. One can only repudiate that system and go on with taking what are the best features of that system as applicable to modern life. The formation of Workers Unions came about from this ideology. But then, you do not see the progenies of those who were affected by the extremism presented by Communism today wanting the blood of those Communists' descendents, do you?

One more point.

Work and labor are not just physical. Only the so called intellectuals think that somehow physical labor is superior to all other forms of labor. Success in a society comes from adapting to the prevailing norms and finding a way to contribute/thrive. When Kancha Illaiah talks about why the Dalit Bhujans remained poor, he not only blames the upper castes, but very curiously he also attributes that to the culture of this class of people who did not want to save, did not want to acquire any land etc. Like the American Indians, they did not believe in individual ownership of land, only the use of land to live. Like the American Indians, unfortunately their culture did not allow them to succeed at a crucial juncture of history when land was purchased, opportioned.

The only problem with Jaathi system is the birth right. If movements have been free, between the castes, I do not see any problem with the system - today we would be perhaps be laughing about the Hindu penchant for numbering, codifying and classifying everything under the sun.

Regards,
KRS

Dear Shri KRS, Greetings!

I think in principle there is a level of convergence of our opinions. Important and major differences are on tactics -- how to remedy past injustice. I think this is an acceptable outcome.

Few points:

• Passing laws will not remedy injustice, it is a necessary step, but not sufficient.
• With all its flaws and inefficiencies, the reservation system continues to uplift Dalits and MBCs.
• For age-old hatred to go away the source of hatred must be addressed. In this case, the supremacist ideology called Brahminism is at the core and the Brahmins are yet to address it in a forthright way
• The reservation system does not shut out FCs from education, it only makes it more expensive -- I think this is only fair, but, if you disagree, I will point to your statement, "life is not fair."

Cheers!

 

[KRS]

Dear Sri Sangom Ji,

It is too bad that the servant felt discrimination and left. Tells me that she did not understand the motives of the elder. This is no difference from any number of imagined wrongs and insults that occur in any society all the time.

Unfortunately, the past plays a role. In this case, it is my opinion that as the old lady did nothing wrong, it has to be left at that. It is good also to see that the servant left, as it shows that today folks will not tolerate old ways based on discrimination. I do not see any special circumstance here - this is how over time folks adjust to each other in a civil society.

Regards,
KRS

 

[kunjuppu]

raghy,

it is heartening to see the poor in villages get a break. living in santhome/mylapore i had no clue to the state of the life in villages till i read some in another forum a few years back.

my father could never understand the appeal of the dravidian parties for the common folks, and used to lecture to the labourers, servants, maids, gardeners, rickshaw man about the 'evils' of periyarism. much to my embarassment!! little did he know his own son subscribed to those reformations!!

good to hear good news. there are many critics of MK here. but in the overall, even ratan tata has acknowledged him and tamil nadu the best administrator and administered state in india.

i have at work a bihari friend. very often he says, that he is so grateful to his father, having taken up a job in madras when he was born. he was educated in pmbb and loyola and said that was the best break he got over his cousins still in bihar

 

[Nara]

Dear Shri KRS, Greetings!

... It is your opinion that the progeny of those deemed responsible as a group must be officially discriminated against by a modern government that is supposed to rule without regard to race, color, age or caste. Discrimination to me is odious, period.

Dismantling centuries old institutionalized oppression is not going to be free of any cost to those who belonged to the privileged castes. The poor among the privileged pay the cost more in proportion to the past advantages they enjoyed, and that is too bad, not fair, but to achieve a bigger "fair" some smaller "unfair" things are unavoidable.

In a liberal democratic society, these trade-offs are made through the political process. The choices the present day society in India has made, with reservation for Dalits, MBC, etc. are immensely more just than the choices that were made in the past when it was Brahmins and other FCs who were in-charge.

Brahmins are so appalled and morally outraged at the discrimination they experience at the time of college admission. Compare that with the past oppression and discrimination of the Dalits that enveloped the entirety of their lives. Not a single aspect of their lives was left free. Complete ban on education was only one aspect of this all pervading oppression. If such "blanket discrimination" is to be applied in the reverse, then all FCs must be prevented even from primary education.

In the present times, the only time FCs feel discriminated is at the time of college admission. Even in this arena, they are not completely forbidden. Even under this reverse discriminatory environment, Brahmins get educated in far higher proportion than Dalits and MBCs. If one takes a neutral look at the cut off points and admissions in colleges, etc., you will see that there is no denial of opportunities that come anywhere close to what you characterize as "blanket".

After they leave college, unless they get into government service, the FCs don't experience any caste based discrimination. They continue to benefit from all the social and cultural assets passed on from generation to generation over centuries, living among highly educated and successful family members, able to take advantage of all the opportunities that arise. Compare that with a Dalit, he/she is probably the very first member in their family history to graduate from college, unable to even recognize opportunities that may exist for advancement, not many in the social/work environment who share his background, always looked down with suspicion about his/her abilities.

Cheers!

 

[Raghy]

Sri.Nara said:-

Dismantling centuries old institutionalized oppression is not going to be free of any cost to those who belonged to the privileged castes. The poor among the privileged pay the cost more in proportion to the past advantages they enjoyed, and that is too bad, not fair, but to achieve a bigger "fair" some smaller "unfair" things are unavoidable.........

Sri.Nara, Greetings. When I read your arguments justifying caste based reservations, it sounded very similar to justifying caste based discriminations. There is no difference between your arguments and the Kasi Pandit seen in in the youtube movie India Untouched - Part 1 and 2.

Caste based reservations are nothing but a load of crap. It is discriminating not just one community, but many communities of people, shamelessly sanctioned by the Government. The lopsided Government has no brain to elevate SC and STs equitably along with others. So, this less than intelligent plan of discriminating one community for the benefit of other is happening. If any Government comes along and admits that it is acting 'unfairly' towards one community for the acheving a bigger 'fair', it will be ridiculed. Indian Government deserves nothing but ridiculing.

The caste based reservation system is flawed; not equitable towards all the people. The rich caste brahmin who was rich all along still discriminates and thumbs his/her nose at everyone; the poor caste brahmins who never discriminated, who never enjoyed and economic benefit through discrimination suffer by the caste based reservations. Here you are celeberating such flawed system!

Cheers!

 

[Nara]

..... There is no difference between your arguments and the Kasi Pandit seen in in the youtube movie India Untouched - Part 1 and 2.

Thank you Raghy, I cannot argue with a person who expresses this view.

thank you ....

 

[Nara]

Folks, I downloaded data from Anna University web site for the year 2009 and did a quick analysis. Across all the branches of engineering, the difference in the minimum cut off marks between OC and BC was no more than 3 across the board, for all branches.

Between OC and SC the difference was as low as 1.8 for Electronics and Communications, and as high as 15.8 for Printing Technology.

To me at least, this shows that the reservation system is not letting in unqualified BC and SC students in place of qualified FCs.

This is only for Anna University.

Since I am unable to get any data on caste-wise representation in admissions I am unable to present a comparison between % of population and % of admissions. But, Brahmins constituting about 3% of the population, get admitted into colleges in vastly larger proportion than BC and SCs.

I am not arguing that the reservation system as applied right now is the ideal system. But, I think, on balance, it is a workable progressive system for Indian conditions. It even has the blessings of the Supreme Court of India, and that is not something to ridicule about.

Cheers!