Do we follow some norms and ethics in this forum

[RVR]

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Sri Ramamurthi Sir,

Every participant here will self certify that they are following the norms. There is no end to these discussions.

Let us leave it to the administration for evaluation of individual postings.

All the best

 

[RVR]

Prof Nara said

"Directly or indirectly, the present day upper castes benefited from the oppression perpetrated against the Dalits and other most backward laboring castes. It may be in the form of tangible inheritances, or it may be intangibles such as culture, arts, education, and other intellectual pursuits that were denied to the lowliest of low castes. None of us can say we are not tainted by the advantages that our ancestors extracted through centuries old oppression. If we accept the principle that we deserve to inherit the wealth of our fathers and grandfathers and derive all the benefits of tangible and intangible cultural capital they amassed through the leisure gained from the labor of Dalits, so should we bear the responsibility, if not guilt, of our father's and grandfather's oppression that is at the root of the benefits we enjoy"

Traditionally all the brahmins were not rich. In my native village few decades back 65 brahmin families lived in an agraharam environment. Hardly 10% of the brahmins were rich, may be around 30% just managed to float and 60% were very poor. The poor brahmins mostly patronised communism and one chap was bold enough to hoist a Marxist flag right at the center of the agraharam.

It is wrong to say that all the upper caste brahmins exploited daliths and other backward castes. On the contrary communist movement was spearheaded by brahmins in India. P Ramamurthi, EMS Namboodripad, ASK Iyengar and several Bengali Brahmins spearheaded the communist movement in India.

In any society in the world, the same proportion of less than 10% of the rich exploiting the remaining happened.

In a matured and long standing democracy like USA, blacks got full voting rights only in the year 1965. Australia had racial discrimination policies against aborigines and South Africa has racial discrimination in the recent past. On the contrary India has adopted full democracy after Independence with equal rights for all citizens. Indian democracy already has a history of daliths occupying important constitutional posts such as President of the republic, Deputy Prime Minister of India, Chief Justice of India, Several Chief Ministers/Chief Secretaries etc.

Digging up the past is not going to help any body. On the contrary developing the present generation of daliths is most important for inclusive growth. Blaming the present generation brahmins for the past misdeeds of their forefathers is also not correct.

Improving literacy among daliths will help them improve economically and socially. Unfortunately the Dravidian parities inspite of their tall claims of lifting downtrodden didn't do much really at field level. More than 25% of tamilians are still illiterate. Present day brahmins should start charitable schools and literate poor and downtrodden among daliths so that past misdeeds will get corrected automatically.

All the best

 

[sangom]

...The sharing of fruits of labor and specialization was probably quite simple in hunter/gatherer societies. But in an agrarian society, which is what ours was until recently, and still is predominantly, production is a result of labor and land. As long as the land ownership was more or less equitably distributed among those who labor in it, there may not have been any major oppression or exploitation. But that was not so. For whatever reasons, the land owners and those who actually tilled and cultivated have been disparate groups of people.

Dear Nara,

I have been taught (while learning about financing of agriculture by banks) by an authority on the subject, that in ancient India, the land was owned by the tiller inalienably, i.e., he had the right to till the land, take the produce, pay the share to the king, temple, etc., as prescribed by the local custom and enjoy the balance, which used to be a very small percentage of the total produce, even under the best of the kings and their levies. But the farmer (and for that matter anyone else) had no right to sell, mortgage or will the land. On the farmer's death his successors (sons, brothers, or whoever qualified according to the Dharmasastras or caste rules approved by the king) got the right to till the land or a share thereof. Some of the lands were given by kings as 'brahmadëyam' to one or to a group of brahmins and in such cases the share due to the king also went to the brahmins for whose support such gifts were made by the king. Even those brahmins did not enjoy the right to sell or alienate the land.

I have also been told that it was only after Akbar brought in the system of survey and assignment of land rights that absolute ownership of land, of the type we see today came into practice in India and that this had far-reaching effects in the entire history of India thereafter.

 

[RVR]

Dear Nara,

I have been taught (while learning about financing of agriculture by banks) by an authority on the subject, that in ancient India, the land was owned by the tiller inalienably, i.e., he had the right to till the land, take the produce, pay the share to the king, temple, etc., as prescribed by the local custom and enjoy the balance, which used to be a very small percentage of the total produce, even under the best of the kings and their levies. But the farmer (and for that matter anyone else) had no right to sell, mortgage or will the land. On the farmer's death his successors (sons, brothers, or whoever qualified according to the Dharmasastras or caste rules approved by the king) got the right to till the land or a share thereof. Some of the lands were given by kings as 'brahmadëyam' to one or to a group of brahmins and in such cases the share due to the king also went to the brahmins for whose support such gifts were made by the king. Even those brahmins did not enjoy the right to sell or alienate the land.

I have also been told that it was only after Akbar brought in the system of survey and assignment of land rights that absolute ownership of land, of the type we see today came into practice in India and that this had far-reaching effects in the entire history of India thereafter.

Probably during British days owning of land by private would have been permitted in South India.

India was one of the richest countries on earth till the British invaded us.(Beginning of 17th Century).

Let us hope same glory returns back to India

All the best

 

[sravna]

It is very much reflective of the times we live in that the caste system is being denounced even by those who should have been its custodians. Of course the huge pressure from the society against those who espoused it was largely instrumental in bringinging about the change but those who oppose this system, take the ills wrought by practice as indicating a flaw in the concept itself.

Many if not all in this forum know that the system as was originally thought out did not envisage caste by birth. Whetther someone qualifies as a brahmin, Kshatriya etc,. was based on the three gunas. Someone would be a brahmin if he is primarily characterized by the sattvic guna and so on. The propounders and the masters of the vedas would probably automatically have qualified as brahmins as vedas strongly advocate the qualities that it proposes for a brahmin. Similarly others would have been categorized based on their gunas.

Now the practical difficulty of categorizing someone to a caste might have for convenience and as a good approximation given birth to the concept of caste by birth over a period of time. Probabaly persons not fit to be brahmins assigned themselves an artificial superiority and the attitude of automatic superiority by birth should have become persavise and well ingrained. That is indeed unfortunate though it happens in any system that is in practice just an American automatically assumes he is superior by virtue of his birth.

I am not going to talk about the wisdom of the ancient Indians in categorizing people based on the gunas rather based on silly IQ tests, and how it can help in optimizing the talent one possesses and blend it harmoniously with those of others for the overall productivity of the society.

 

[sangom]

It is wrong to say that all the upper caste brahmins exploited daliths and other backward castes. On the contrary communist movement was spearheaded by brahmins in India. P Ramamurthi, EMS Namboodripad, ASK Iyengar and several Bengali Brahmins spearheaded the communist movement in India.

This is just not convincing. For every one of these handful of leaders (I am not sure whether M.N. Roy was a Bengali Brahmin, though he belonged to the FC), there were thousands and thousands who stuck to their traditional ways. Can we, therefore, find consolation by saying that 0.005% of brahmins did not exploit the Daliths?

Digging up the past is not going to help any body. On the contrary developing the present generation of daliths is most important for inclusive growth. Blaming the present generation brahmins for the past misdeeds of their forefathers is also not correct.

Let me, first of all, state that I am not blaming the present generation (or even the preceding one or two generations, perhaps) of brahmins for what happened in the past. But I find that many of our people (I talk here only about TBs) hold a confirmed view that their ancestors did some signal service to the sustainment and well-being of the society (comprising the well-defined four caste groups) but for which the society would have gone to utter ruin, as is now happening because the brahmin has been ousted from his earlier high pedestal. They take very little effort to learn the history of India, much less that of Hinduism, and have hardly any idea about the twists and turns taken by Hinduism in the course of the last few millennia in order to safeguard the primacy of brahmins. This is not IMO digging up the past, though it may look so for many of us who have, in their imagination, an entirely different picture about the past

I am therefore of the view that a forum like this should give some input for those of us who have such a one-sided view, try to broaden their vision so that they start thinking and change their world view voluntarily, rather than unwillingly adjust to changes by the force of external pressures which always happens anyway. I also don't want to blame the present generation in any way but would expect them to become aware of what happened in the past so that they become better informed.

In a very brahminical way, let me point out that at times at least we still do expiatory rites for "kuTumba dOsham" குடும்ப தோஷம், "pitru dOsham" பித்ரு தோஷம், etc., and hence, even according to our smritis, none of us can completely detach ourselves from the deeds of our ancestors and the effects thereof.

Improving literacy among daliths will help them improve economically and socially. Unfortunately the Dravidian parities inspite of their tall claims of lifting downtrodden didn't do much really at field level. More than 25% of tamilians are still illiterate. Present day brahmins should start charitable schools and literate poor and downtrodden among daliths so that past misdeeds will get corrected automatically.

Not only the St. Govt., but the GOI also is unable to create any substantial upliftment of the Daliths. Just giving literacy may not be any help in improving their lot; what we can and may do is to give them some employment in whatever way each one of us can. (One TB here has employed a woman cook belonging to a low caste. That is the type of step we can do now.)

 

[sangom]

Many if not all in this forum know that the system as was originally thought out did not envisage caste by birth. Whetther someone qualifies as a brahmin, Kshatriya etc,. was based on the three gunas. Someone would be a brahmin if he is primarily characterized by the sattvic guna and so on. The propounders and the masters of the vedas would probably automatically have qualified as brahmins as vedas strongly advocate the qualities that it proposes for a brahmin. Similarly others would have been categorized based on their gunas.

Dear sravna,

Greetings! The Vedas do not advocate any "quality" of a brahmin. All that the Rig Veda says is that brahmins formed the mouth of the Purusha who was offered as "pasu" (animal) in a sacrifice and when His limbs were cut into pieces (यत् पुरुषम् व्यदधुः कतिधाव्यकल्पयन्). So, you see, right at the very start of the caste system there is an imagery of a cruel sacrifice. So, the Veda composers cannot be faulted for possessing saatvic qualities in abundance, etc. In fact one does not find any mention of the three gunas in the Rig Veda, it is a later import into Hinduism.

The Rig Veda also does not expressly refer to any change from one caste to another, in fact the Purusha Suktam in the last Mandala is the only place the names of the four castes appear. Scholars therefore feel that this could very well have been an interpolation.

Now the practical difficulty of categorizing someone to a caste might have for convenience and as a good approximation given birth to the concept of caste by birth over a period of time. Probabaly persons not fit to be brahmins assigned themselves an artificial superiority and the attitude of automatic superiority by birth should have become pervavise and well ingrained. That is indeed unfortunate though it happens in any system that is in practice just an American automatically assumes he is superior by virtue of his birth.

Available evidence shows that moving from one caste to another in the anuloma (higher to lower) way within the three higher castes was allowed. That meant, a brahmin by birth could become a Kshatriya or Vaisya, a Kshatriya could take up Vaisyavritti but a Kshatriya becoming a brahmin (Visvaamitra was an exception; Janaka etc. continued to be Kshatriyas despite their superior knowledge) or a Vaisya becoming a Kshatriya was near impossible. So, there is no prima facie evidence to conclude that a well recognized system of determining the guna of a person, at least when he undergoes training under a Guru, and thus deciding which caste he should be allotted to, does not seem to have existed at any time. In all probability caste was by birth, though some amount of movement was permitted as I explained above. According to the post-Vedic texts such movements were also mostly to earn and lead a better life, like in times of famine, war, etc.

I am not sure whether the notion of superiority of a US white-skinned person is due to his notion that he has a superiority by birth, or because he knows he can afford many luxuries which many others in the world can only dream of.

I am not going to talk about the wisdom of the ancient Indians in categorizing people based on the gunas rather based on silly IQ tests, and how it can help in optimizing the talent one possesses and blend it harmoniously with those of others for the overall productivity of the society.

Your statement is not clear to me.

 

[sravna]

Dear Shri Sangom,

Caste system in its role of deciding the occupation is actually non-existent. As such we do not have a caste system working now. What is left are its side effects which anyway are unsustainable in the long run especially in a world where equality is touted as a noble concept.

To me the ideal situation is the reverse of this where the basic nature of the persons as indicated by the gunas should determine one's occupation though without the side effects. The reason why this approach is superior to the present techniques of assessment is very much due to its focus on the holistic rather than on the analytic. Secondly it assigns to the person the occupation he is most likely to excel based on his innate nature. The principle here is complementarity rather than eqaulity. A unified whole is always stronger than parts fighting among themselves.

The challenge is to devise a workable implementation of this system.

 

[RVR]

Sri Sangom said

"This is just not convincing. For every one of these handful of leaders (I am not sure whether M.N. Roy was a Bengali Brahmin, though he belonged to the FC), there were thousands and thousands who stuck to their traditional ways. Can we, therefore, find consolation by saying that 0.005% of brahmins did not exploit the Daliths?"

Brahmins as were not traditionally rich. In my earlier posting I have explained that 60% of the brahmins in my native village were poor without any land holding or any other form of income. While they practiced caste system they never exploited any other community.

On the contrary big land lords in the erstwhile Tanjore district were all non-brahmins - Vadapathimangalam Mudaliar had more than 6000 acres of agricultural land. G K Mooppanar, Poondi Vaandayar, Ukkadai Thevar, Valivalam Desikar etc had more than 1000 acres of land. None of them belonged to TB community.

Even the Kizhavenmani conflict where more than 40 daliths burnt alive was between a non-brahmin land lord and agricultural workers. In fact Marxist leader P Ramamurthi who happened to be a Tamil Brahmin was very much alive fighting on behalf of agricultural workers with big landlords at that time.


Even in Kerala Mamman Maappillai and others had several thousand acres of rubber estate and Nambudripad was fighting them on behalf of agricultural workers who are mostly daliths and backward classes.

My point is blaming brahmin community for all the problems of dalith community is not at all correct. Brahmins never indulged in violence again dalith community whereas caste Hindus have indulged in violence.

Even today brahmins wants peaceful co-existence of all communities and never indulge in violence.

All the best

 

[sangom]

Dear Shri Sangom,

Caste system in its role of deciding the occupation is actually non-existent. As such we do not have a caste system working now. What is left are its side effects which anyway are unsustainable in the long run especially in a world where equality is touted as a noble concept.

Equality of opportunity is there in many countries (though it may not be cent percent perfect and ideal). That is why our people (Indians in general) who migrate to such countries tend to establish themselves there on long term basis. So it is not simply "touting" IMO.

To me the ideal situation is the reverse of this where the basic nature of the persons as indicated by the gunas should determine one's occupation though without the side effects. The reason why this approach is superior to the present techniques of assessment is very much due to its focus on the holistic rather than on the analytic. Secondly it assigns to the person the occupation he is most likely to excel based on his innate nature. The principle here is complementarity rather than eqaulity. A unified whole is always stronger than parts fighting among themselves.

The challenge is to devise a workable implementation of this system.

While I agree with you that if there is a system which will enable each person the choice of his/her vocation, I don't think it will ever be possible for any agency to "assign" each person to the vocation best suited to him/her after assessing the aptitude, if that is what you meant.

The number of available people - as per their suitability as indicated by their "Gunas" (I don't know how this can be judged) - for each job may not be in equilibrium with the requirements of the country for such job. This will be a permanent problem and some people will have to settle for some other job. What is more feasible is to afford equality of opportunities and select the best.

 

[T R RAMAMURTHY]

I am able to watch the comments better from another browser. Earlier I had difficulty in browsing. I have to pick some more skills at taking out extracts and putting them in coloured text etc. and also give references to be a better debater.
I thank all veteran debaters and take note of the fact that apologizing should not be done quickly. Thanks sir, for the advices. I learn that strong debaters do not yield quickly.
I think it is now time that this forum invites some TNB sympathisers and well wishers and put their thoughts too, to know some counter view points. A bengali friend of mine used to comment on South Indians - and say that social reformers of south were not from Brahmin community but from the downtrodden.
Having lived continuously for four decades in parts of North India, I have not been able to see brahmin hatred feeling anywhere in the North but if any, it was a feeling of respect with brahmins being called as Panditji, Brahman devataji etc. What these people did in North which we in South did not do. I feel the other way here that in North, undeserving unqualified brahmins get respect even as temple priests just for the sake of it (without any knowledge or formal training as we have in South).
Somehow, reforms are called for. There should be a Vivekananda for the TB community.
I suggest some points as agenda
1. To start with, there can be no doubt that the poorer sections of TBs should be helped which is one of our duties.
2. Next, at least, a compilation or a suggested code of conduct by which we inculcate to our children the merits of being born a brahmin but at the same time making them understand what were the past ills in our society and what can be done to eliminate the hatred from other communities.
3. To use the forum to dispel lack of knowledge
I look to a guru. I expect that a Vivekananda will generate from somewhere let him not just help the brahmins but let us be taught what is needed to live better amicably in harmony with motto "Sarve Janah: Sukhino Bhavanthu"
No doubt it will be a task to unite all and come to final views but there can be some common points which need agreement and the seniors, elders and veterans can put these together in the form of codes with modifications in our "Suggested code of conduct for the 21st century youngsters" (I avoid the word "Acharam" for obvious reasons) which would be a workable way of life for common appreciation. At last, the net has united some of us into a forum. Let there be debate all around, but let us come to some common grounds.
Thanks and respects

 

[Nara]

...I have been taught (while learning about financing of agriculture by banks) by an authority on the subject, that in ancient India, the land was owned by the tiller inalienably...

Dear Shri sangom,

I think there is no consensus among scholars on this issue of land ownership. There are three theories, (i) land was owned by the king, (ii) land was owned by the community, and (iii) land was owned by individual families.

It seems there are indications in even in the Vedas that point to private land ownership, but I don't know.

Perhaps a combination of all three modes of ownership existed, but overtime the ownership shifted more towards individual ownership. It seems Bhagavat Ramanuja and his contemporary and shishya Kooraththazhvan, both were wealthy Brahmin landlords.

As RVR says, there were poor Brahmin families in villages as well as towns. But, when I look back to my childhood days in a few aghraharams, I don't remember even a single Brahmin, not even the poor ones, actually stepping into the fields and doing any manual work. Further, none of the poor families were denied education. None of them thought of themselves and their descendants as fit only to be poor. They were not dispossessed of any of the cultural assets that was the province of only the upper castes.

In any case, among the three modes of land ownership which type was more predominant, or, whether there were any poor Brahmin families or not, are not crucial to my main point, which is, on a societal scale, the privileged castes benefited in both tangible and intangible ways from the labor of the laboring castes. In as much as these benefits were passed down to successive generations, no B or NB upper castes can declare themselves untainted by the centuries old exploitation. That would tantamount to skipping on bills owed.

Cheers!

 

[RVR]

I don't remember even a single Brahmin, not even the poor ones, actually stepping into the fields and doing any manual work.

My own uncle use to physically remove unwanted plants (களை எடுக்கறது) from the field. Daily he use to cut grass physically for cows in his house. He was the second richest land lord in our village but he never felt bad about all the above activities. Lot of brahmins in our village use to drive bullock carts. Some use to take cows and buffaloes for natural feeding (மாடு மேய்க்கிறது) apart from bathing them. Preparing feeds for animals and cleaning cowdung was a regular practice among brahmins in our village. One chap was running a cycle shop and use to repair cycles himself physically. Some boys from our village migrated to cities and joined factories as physical workers in odd conditions like foundries etc.

May be due to food habits, our community didn't had enough physical strength to lift a full bag of paddy.

Percentage of people doing physical work in our community may be small but our community people were doing physical labour during my younger days.

All the best

 

[Nara]

....My own uncle use to physically remove unwanted plants (களை எடுக்கறது) from the field.

OK, RVR, we will exempt your uncle from responsibility for Dalit oppression.

best ...

 

[sangom]

Dear Nara,

What I wanted to emphasize but overlooked, was that the right of the tiller to till the land could not be taken away except by royal orders and so the farming communities which were mostly in the lowest rung, had some sort of hope for their future (next crop) and a sense of security even if theirs was at the best of times, subsistence only. The individual ownership of land upset this arrangement radically.

Though I have not read so far about land ownership as such in the Vedas, by the time of the Yajur Veda the prayers included "dhaanyam" besides the age-old cows, wealth etc. Yajnavalkya was said to be a rich householder with two wives but I don't think there is any specific mention of landholding as such.

 

[SuryaKasyapa]

Sri RVR,

Like your uncle, my maternal grandfather used to work on land ( only a few cents of non-agricultural land) alongwith a helper. Later on, when he was not able to pay the required labour cahrges, as not much income was there, he himself used to do the same.
The humble scribe posting this , also is experienced in these , including climbing coconut tree( not now, but in teens and youth), also working on thatching roof of the house we lived in,with paddy straw, alongside grandfather and a skilled labourer.- not for fun,but due to necessity. If I had some land( How I wish against all reality) I am ready to till the land or do some agri operations.

I have also a relative who worked as a headload worker. He was doing the job with dignity.He was teetotaller. Educated his two daughters one upto Post Graduation and another upto graduation, saw that both are married to brahmin boys and settled well .

Now he is in the fifties.So he is not doing the headload work due to the request of his daughters, but does all other labour oriented jobs.

He is a social worker for community functions.He is respected by others. I made it particular and ensured that I attended the marriage of his daughter, against the problems of leave from office etc.(thogh many other relatives' functions I could not attend many times.) . This was due to the respect I had to him for his hardworking ,honest nature.

There are many brahmin boys doing different types of technical jobs(in India and in Gulf countries) which need good physical labour.

Greetings.

 

[AnanthaNarayanan]

Sri Sangom said

"This is just not convincing. For every one of these handful of leaders (I am not sure whether M.N. Roy was a Bengali Brahmin, though he belonged to the FC), there were thousands and thousands who stuck to their traditional ways. Can we, therefore, find consolation by saying that 0.005% of brahmins did not exploit the Daliths?"

Brahmins as were not traditionally rich. In my earlier posting I have explained that 60% of the brahmins in my native village were poor without any land holding or any other form of income. While they practiced caste system they never exploited any other community.

On the contrary big land lords in the erstwhile Tanjore district were all non-brahmins - Vadapathimangalam Mudaliar had more than 6000 acres of agricultural land. G K Mooppanar, Poondi Vaandayar, Ukkadai Thevar, Valivalam Desikar etc had more than 1000 acres of land. None of them belonged to TB community.

Even the Kizhavenmani conflict where more than 40 daliths burnt alive was between a non-brahmin land lord and agricultural workers. In fact Marxist leader P Ramamurthi who happened to be a Tamil Brahmin was very much alive fighting on behalf of agricultural workers with big landlords at that time.


Even in Kerala Mamman Maappillai and others had several thousand acres of rubber estate and Nambudripad was fighting them on behalf of agricultural workers who are mostly daliths and backward classes.

My point is blaming brahmin community for all the problems of dalith community is not at all correct. Brahmins never indulged in violence again dalith community whereas caste Hindus have indulged in violence.

Even today brahmins wants peaceful co-existence of all communities and never indulge in violence.

All the best

Sir RVR sir,
nice explanation

 

[sangom]

I am able to watch the comments better from another browser. Earlier I had difficulty in browsing. I have to pick some more skills at taking out extracts and putting them in coloured text etc. and also give references to be a better debater.

Dear Shri Ramamurthy,

Greetings! I am sure you will be able to pick up all the tricks of the browser quite easily. Since Shri KRS opined that what we are doing here is not debate but just "banter", I feel we will agree that ours is not debate. Whether banter will lead us to serious steps and reforms, is a big question, however.

I thank all veteran debaters and take note of the fact that apologizing should not be done quickly. Thanks sir, for the advices. I learn that strong debaters do not yield quickly. I think it is now time that this forum invites some TNB sympathisers and well wishers and put their thoughts too, to know some counter view points.

I feel that these two comments are a bit sarcastic. If, however, these are your genuine conclusions from reading the posts here, I differ. I do not think anyone said that good debaters should not yield and apologize quickly, or not quickly. What was objected was the view that if someone clinging to old brahmin glory but not having any feeling for the Daliths' misery created by the caste system, exhausts his arguments, he should still be allowed to feel he is right. The suggestion to invite TNB sympathisers is superfluous since membership is open and if any one wants to comment he/she may. However, if you feel that their view points also should be known, you may as well raise the topic in any forum of TNBs, find out their opinion and post it here.

A bengali friend of mine used to comment on South Indians - and say that social reformers of south were not from Brahmin community but from the downtrodden.
Having lived continuously for four decades in parts of North India, I have not been able to see brahmin hatred feeling anywhere in the North but if any, it was a feeling of respect with brahmins being called as Panditji, Brahman devataji etc. What these people did in North which we in South did not do. I feel the other way here that in North, undeserving unqualified brahmins get respect even as temple priests just for the sake of it (without any knowledge or formal training as we have in South).

I had also spent twenty years in the north but my observation was that while there is no hostility towards the brahmin, the respect is only on the surface, at the social level. Anyway, that is not an issue for us now.

Somehow, reforms are called for. There should be a Vivekananda for the TB community.
I suggest some points as agenda
1. To start with, there can be no doubt that the poorer sections of TBs should be helped which is one of our duties.
2. Next, at least, a compilation or a suggested code of conduct by which we inculcate to our children the merits of being born a brahmin but at the same time making them understand what were the past ills in our society and what can be done to eliminate the hatred from other communities.
3. To use the forum to dispel lack of knowledge
I look to a guru. I expect that a Vivekananda will generate from somewhere let him not just help the brahmins but let us be taught what is needed to live better amicably in harmony with motto "Sarve Janah: Sukhino Bhavanthu"
No doubt it will be a task to unite all and come to final views but there can be some common points which need agreement and the seniors, elders and veterans can put these together in the form of codes with modifications in our "Suggested code of conduct for the 21st century youngsters" (I avoid the word "Acharam" for obvious reasons) which would be a workable way of life for common appreciation. At last, the net has united some of us into a forum. Let there be debate all around, but let us come to some common grounds.
Thanks and respects

First I doubt very much whether Vivekananda contributed anything to social reform anywhere in the country, including Bengal. Chaitanya and his followers had already created a lot of social awakening there. What Vivekananda did was to bring to the notice of the West that Hinduism had some bright points, and more than that, that there are people who could talk about hinduism to the lay audience of the West in their language.

But why should we wait for a new Vivekananda to come from somewhere (even if it is from T.Nadu itself) for bringing about some reforms in our TB community? Cannot each one of us think and start that reform ourselves from our very households? Just as an example, I refer you to a thread regarding a non-vegetarian cook. See the inhibitions even in younger minds and how the discussions there ended ultimately. I don't think some one from outside can go and compel each person to follow a specific set of rules. We can discuss, exchange views and information, etc., but ultimately it is for the individual concerned to decide.

The next generation now hardly looks to us for guidance and the one next to them will require even less guidance from their elders. It is our situation that is being discussed here IMO.

Perhaps the mistake done in designing this forum is to allow critical discussions on our scriptures, customs and ideals; we should have been like our ancestors - none of these can be questioned becasue they are sacrosanct! Conformist opinions only should have been allowed. Then there would have been a very nice atmosphere with no debates, no yielding, etc., only a type of question and answer mode; people asking various doubts and the learned Guru answering for their enlightenment, another Sanatana Sarathi!

 

[AnanthaNarayanan]

Sri RVR,

Like your uncle, my maternal grandfather used to work on land ( only a few cents of non-agricultural land) alongwith a helper. Later on, when he was not able to pay the required labour cahrges, as not much income was there, he himself used to do the same.
The humble scribe posting this , also is experienced in these , including climbing coconut tree( not now, but in teens and youth), also working on thatching roof of the house we lived in,with paddy straw, alongside grandfather and a skilled labourer.- not for fun,but due to necessity. If I had some land( How I wish against all reality) I am ready to till the land or do some agri operations.

I have also a relative who worked as a headload worker. He was doing the job with dignity.He was teetotaller. Educated his two daughters one upto Post Graduation and another upto graduation, saw that both are married to brahmin boys and settled well .

Now he is in the fifties.So he is not doing the headload work due to the request of his daughters, but does all other labour oriented jobs.

He is a social worker for community functions.He is respected by others. I made it particular and ensured that I attended the marriage of his daughter, against the problems of leave from office etc.(thogh many other relatives' functions I could not attend many times.) . This was due to the respect I had to him for his hardworking ,honest nature.

There are many brahmin boys doing different types of technical jobs(in India and in Gulf countries) which need good physical labour.

Greetings.

sri S k
what you said is true, there is lot of brahmins who are working in the field of industries. which require massive physical power. they have to handle wide range of materials and hand tools ,and in times has to do the excavations also in the hot sun.
in kerala the palce i came from, brahmins in the village will do all the work along with the field workers. and there is a social mingling in the festivities of tamils as well and never seen any visible hatred from other communities. as the land reforms in kerala made a lot land less, still the new land owners (tiller of the soil is still tiller only)in most case maintains good contact

 

[silverfox]

Dear Prof. Nara
I hope this finds you in the best of health.
My grandfather, too, used to go into the rice fields and worked along with our farmers. However, I remember the Harijan farmer who worked for our fields wouldn't come near us to talk; he had to stand about 30-40 yards away from my grandfather. Nevertheless, he and his family was treated well and well taken care of.
A small anecdote: When India attained Independence in 1947, our village freedom fighter (himself a Brahmin) celebrated it and took all the children (me included) on a parade holding the Indian tri-color flag. We were led thru the Harijan 'cheri' also. That was the first time I had ever stepped into the 'cheri' (it used to be on the outskirts of the village). When we returned and I was about to enter our house, my grandmother was standing at the door with fire in her eyes. She told me to stand outside, brought a bucket of water with some cowdung in it and poured over me. Then she ordered that I go to the temple pond to take a bath and come back!!!
There was no doubt discrimination against harijans --albeit innocently or they went along with the society's norms at that time.

 

[silverfox]

Dear Raghy:
I would have loved to see that girl changing her husband to vegetarianism; after all, if she loved him so, then she should look out for his health, too!!
That is it! I put in my to cents!!

Sri.Wrongan, You are right. I will let this matter go at this. I have no desire to start a fight on this. In fact, in Toronto I did help one Iyengar girl to cook such dishes for her NB husband. She loves him; she wanted to surprise him! Why not? I have very little restrictions.
Cheers!

 

[Nara]

Dear Shri silverfox, Greetings!

Hope you are doing well as well.

...My grandfather, too, used to go into the rice fields and worked along with our farmers.

[...]

There was no doubt discrimination against harijans --albeit innocently or they went along with the society's norms at that time.

It seems I did not look close enough when I was growing up .

Let me edit the following paragraph as highlighted:

"As RVR says, there were poor Brahmin families in villages as well as towns. But, when I look back to my childhood days in a few aghraharams, I don't remember even a single Brahmin, not even the poor ones, actually stepping into the fields and doing any manual work. Further, none of the poor families were denied education. None of them thought of themselves and their descendants as fit only to be poor. They were not dispossessed of any of the cultural assets that was the province of only the upper castes."
​

Edited version:

"As RVR says, there were poor Brahmin families in villages as well as towns. I doubt Brahmins in general, not even the poor ones, actually stepping into the fields to do any hard labor, let alone as paid laborers. Further, none of the poor families were denied education. None of them thought of themselves and their descendants as fit only to be poor. They were not dispossessed of any of the cultural assets that was the province of only the upper castes."
​

Since all the comments have been on this one point I suppose the rest of my presentation is acceptable.

Cheers!

 

[Raghy]

OK, RVR, we will exempt your uncle from responsibility for Dalit oppression.

best ...

Sri.Nara,

Greetings. In my opinion, the reply provided by you is not appropriate.

Cheers!

 

[Raghy]

Dear Raghy:
I would have loved to see that girl changing her husband to vegetarianism; after all, if she loved him so, then she should look out for his health, too!!
That is it! I put in my to cents!!

Sri.Silverfox,

Greetings. Nobody can chage anybody. It is for the individual to change their habits; only such changes can last long. I am very surprised that you did not read between the lines in my message. I wrote 'she wanted to surprise him'; that means, usually she did not cook NV dishes; nor he expected her to cook. her cooking was like an isolated surprise event. that was all. In my village, most NBs eat NV dishes only once in a while; may be once in a month, if that. During my previous visit, I noticed that most of them have become strict vegitarians (one whole street of NBs who took over the control of 'Sundara Varadhar' temple became all but vegitarians; I will not be surprised if they all become Srivaishnavas in the future. I noticed many NBS became ' serious Saivaites' forefeiting NV food altogether).

NV food is not unhealthy. On the contrary, it can be very healthy. Iron and fat contents are more in NV foods. ( I am not writing this to promote NV food though).

Cheers!

 

[KRS]

Dear Professor Ji,
Yes, we have very different world views. As perhaps your views might have changed, mine has changed drastically over time.

I agree with you, interms of 'oppression' of certain classes of society. It did happen and continues to happen. Not only in India but in most other countries as well and continue unabated with official sanction with a force of law in a number of countries. I am not saying this to argue that 'oppression' is okay today. What I am saying is that oppression towards certain folks in a society seems to have been the norm in most of the countries around the globe. Dark age did not just happen in one continent, it has and is happening even today in other parts of the world.

I agree with Sri RVR's view. India has in her books, laws against oppression, discrimination and what not. I do not think that the majority of the so called Forward Castes are against those who are disadvantaged getting help. As I have said, the Government instead of improving the conditions of the disadvantaged by helping them where it counts (primary/secondary education) instead gladly implemented the Quota System (which is largely different from the US styled 'Affirmative Action'), that too for a few years - which is now extended without any end in sight. No one would argue that this system measurably helped or helping those it was intended for - instead you have higher castes clamouring to be tagged as a SC or ST.

By shutting out a segment of a class of people as a source of all evil in the society (by the way the Dalits were 'oppressed' by all castes, perhaps with more vehemence by the NBs). and punishing their progeny in terms of getting the right to education and jobs, the government essentially has chosen to 'oppress' this class ostensibly to advance the interests of the truly 'oppressed', in which they have failed also. This only tells me that the quota system is largely political window dressing while the society can not benefit from increased contribution from one segment of the society.

Life is not fair. Some are born in to very wealthy families, some are 'unfairly' endowed with talents that make them very successful in today's society. Inequalities abound. I think the role of the government is to help those who are disadvantaged, early in their lives, give them the tools necessary to succeed and let them compete with everyone else on a level playing field. It is not a government's job, whichever government it is, to watonly discriminate against one segment of the society, irrespective of history. While histry is a great teacher, it also perpetuates revenge and the want for 'social justice' creating an oppressor and oppressed without end. This is exactly why we should not apply today's norms to yesterday's history, looking for culprits. Look at all the hotspots around the world - all happening because a few vested interests would not let folks let go of hatred towards someone else based on history. This to me does not make any sense.

As I have said, as long as there are laws to see discrimination as illegal, then that's all is needed. Over time the caste based discrimination will disappear.

On the other topic of discussing 'any topic under the sun' - I think I have said enough.

Regards,
KRS