Do we follow some norms and ethics in this forum

[RVR]

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Prof Nara,

Do you think any brahmin involved in any heinous crime of burning 44 daliths in Tamilnadu.

Blaming Tamilbrahmin community for two tumbler system or drawing water from a well from caste Hindu dominated locality is not at all correct.

Tamil Brahmin community itself has faced lot of attacks from the caste Hindu dominated Dravidian parties for decades and are mostly living in fear. How can they raise voice for some other community when they are unable to protect themselves. Infact substantial number of people from Tamil Brahmin community have left their home land and are moving towards some other state or country.

Kanchi mutt didn't accumulate wealth traditionally. Please go through the thread `Re energy sing Kanchi mutt' where including me several members of this forum has criticized the present Acharyas for collecting money without proper checks & balances breeding corruption and maladministration in the mutt itself. I wish you go through that thread first before raising further questions about Kanchi mutt. I think it has become very convenient to bring Kanchi mutt to this discussions in this forum when people dry out of ideas. Since moderators at that time requested me not to criticise Kanchi mutt and its Acharyas, I am refraining myself from involving the mutt. Please go through the above mentioned thread where most of your questions will have answer.

Missionaries are capable of creating problems any where. Even in this forum, one member was banned when the administration found out that he is not even a Hindu. When repeated attacks against Tamil Brahmin community and its traditional Acharyas are brought on regular basis, definitely I am raising the alarm bell whether some other religion is instigating or funding these people. Why these people are silent about atrocities on daliths in Tamilnadu.

I am surprised that when I bring United Nations report about atrocities against daliths, you are not bothered to comment about it. This report has made lot of recommendations to the Government of India and State Governments to prevent such atrocities in the future. It is for the Governments both at the centre and state act on the recommendations. The report clearly says Police are hand in glow with the caste Hindus. State Government in Tamilnadu will throw the report to the dust bin since it is dominated by caste Hindus against whom all allegations are made in the report.

But again and again you are asking me to name the members whom I suspect or refrain from discussing. Can you pin point at least one Tamil Brahmin committed any physical injury to any dalith in Tamilnadu after independence. On the contrary lot of brahmins have fought for dalith cause including P Ramamurthi, A S K Iyengar, W R Varadarajan etc. They were on the side of the 44 people burnt alive in Tamilnadu. Rajaji allowed temple entry of daliths long back. Freedom fighters like Madurai Vaidyanatha Aiyer developed downtrodden people like P Kakkan. Kamaraj was brought to focus by Satyamurthi. R.Venkataraman and Gurumurthi started their career as trade union leaders.

Caste Hindus in Tamilnadu are expoiting daliths to the fullest extent even today. UN report says police is dominated by caste Hindus. I don't think Tahsildars who are issuing caste certificates are all saints. Non-daliths manage to get `SC/ST' certificates and exploit the reservations meant for daliths in Tamilnadu. Brahmins are in a helpless situation to prevent such atrocities.

Please go through another thread, `http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/general-discussions/4413-gandhian-economics-village.html' where a dalith has done remarkably well in transforming a village. He doesn't belong to any political party and is working in 1000 villages for self sufficiency. I am unable to spend time in all these movements but we are in touch with each other for rural development and dalith upliftment.

I request our community members here to support such activities so that we can create a bright future for the downtrodden people.

All the best



Brahmins in general and Tamil Brahmin community in particular are law abiding citizens of this country and doesn't take the law into their hands. Even when Kanchi Acharyas were arrested, every body kept their cool and are still waiting for the courts to pronounce judgement.

 

[RVR]

Dear RVR sir, in this post all I wanted was some clarification, what you meant by "here", and, in what way the only active and known NB in this forum, or at least in this thread, who is HH, disrupted your fund raising efforts.

You did not address either of these two questions. Instead you have raised an assortment of issues. I have responded to some of them here. I want this post to be only about the two questions, what is "here" and why you think HH is disrupting your fund raising. Hope you will address them directly.

Thank you, and regards....

Prof Nara,

Here means in this forum

There are several members not belonging to our community in this forum and I leave it to your imagination about a particular individual.

All the best

 

[Nara]

Dear RVR sir, When a Toyota car speeds away uncontrollably, it is the designer who must be held responsible. In as much as these are caste based atrocities, the designer of caste system must be held responsible. Putting all the blame on the front line soldiers who know no better and refusing to take any blame for having designed this wicked system, and given it spiritual sanction, is so, is so, how should I say, Brahmin????

The older Dalits accept their station and do not want to upset the apple cart. But the youngsters are assertive. They are fed up with the daily humiliations. What they reject foremost is Brahhminism. They hold the bitter enemies of Brahminsim in very high regard and esteem. Think about that. Between Rajaji and EVR, it is EVR they respect. Between Gandhi and BRA, it is BRA they adore.

Tamil Brahmin community itself has faced lot of attacks from the caste Hindu dominated Dravidian parties for decades and are mostly living in fear. How can they raise voice for some other community when they are unable to protect themselves.

I am going to ask you for some documented evidence for this, (i) lot of attacks and (ii) mostly living in fear. I have highlighted these two phrases above.

From my experience and the experience of my relatives living in Tamil Nadu cities and villages, I can say that this just cannot be substantiated. If all you have are the usual unverifiable personal observations and episodes, just don't bother, they don't count as evidence. For each such personal episode I can also give 100 episodes. I myself have traveled all over Tamil Nadu, from Chennai to Kanyakumari, from Ramanathapuram to Coimbatore, all over Thanjavur dt., and everywhere in between, in orthodox Brahmin attire, often using public transportation, never encountering anything remotely resembling even snide mocking, let alone attacks leading to fear. Of all the mind bending assertions I have seen, this one takes the cake.

Infact substantial number of people from Tamil Brahmin community have left their home land and are moving towards some other state or country.

Let us not kid ourselves, the reason for this economic opportunity that TBs are good at sniffing out.

Cheers!

 

[Nara]

Dear RVR sir, I don't want to be seen to be paying too much attention to you. But at the same time, you have now provided the answer to what you mean by "here". Having badgered you for this I find obligated to finish my thoughts on this.

Here means in this forum

So the "here" in the following post is our forum.

It only proves that fighting for daliths and at the same time brahmin bashing here is very easy. I may not be surprised if some other religion may be funding them to create problems for brahmins here.

I have fought for Dalit causes, and have expressed strong views that could be construed as Brahmin bashing. Therefore, in the absence of no name being mentioned, I think I am fully within reason to conclude I am the one, or one of a few, at whom this is directed.

RVR sir, prepare to be surprised, I am not funded by any religion. In fact I don't like any religion. I think religions, on balance, have caused more harm than good.

Further, I am not creating any problems for Brahmins. If anything I want to encourage Brahmins to get out of the cocoon. I did. For many years I was struck inside this cocoon and enjoying it -- like that king who was born as a pig and didn't want to be killed when his friend came for the pig's head as he had requested him to do so earlier. Inside the cocoon there was only black and white, separated by a narrow band of bland gray, which they called ஆபத்துக்கு பாவமில்லை and before getting back to black and white there is always சேது ஸ்நானம்.

Then, slowly I stuck my head out and saw an array of vibrant colors. Still, I was afraid to leave the cozy and comfortable cocoon. I did not want to upset the other inhabitants of the cocoon. But the draw of the freedom and beauty of the multicolored world was too much to resist. Finally I broke free and since then I have been having a ball. I wish others stuck in the black/white cocoon to come out like butterflies and make this world a better place. Do you think this is causing trouble to brahmins?

Literally helping the fisherman with good education is very difficult but abusing brahmins here is very easy.

Let us be careful with such guys here.

"Let us be careful with such guys" really RVR? If I don't help your favorite charity, then, I am abusing Brahmins and others must be careful about me? This kind of paranoia comes from too much affinity for the black and white of cocoon.

There are lot of people doing a lot of work, in their own way and in their own style. Please do not assume that the only way to help others is through contributions to the charity work you are involved in.

There are several members not belonging to our community in this forum and I leave it to your imagination about a particular individual.

Even now you don't want to come out and admit that it was HH you were attacking. Alright, let it be. But this whole affair is very disappointing.

That is it from my side about this RVR. I welcome your comments and will read it, but I am not planning on responding unless there is anything new on which I have something to say.

Thank you ....

 

[KRS]

Dear Srimathi HH Ji,

I am very surprised you did not include my name in the list! Guess if one doesn't directly respond to the question, one is then put in the opposite camp!

But, seriously, lots of Brahmins know this today. If a priest preasches casteism then the listeners should walk out.

But to tell you the truth, there will always be some who believe in this jaathi crap (from all jaathis), because there is always a percentage in any group who will believe in anything.

Regards,
KRS

Thanks Anand and Raghy. Both of you are the only ones that clearly mention rejection of discrimination. Apart from you both, there is Shri Nara and Shri Sangom who reject such stuff. So 4 people rejecting scriptural discrimnation out of the handful of posters here is not bad at all. Thanks again.

 

[happyhindu]

Shri RVR,

I totally agree with you that present day brahmins are not to be blamed. When it comes to reservations and stuff, they typically wonder why they are discriminated against (and wonder what mistake did i do and so on). No brahmin is practicing untouchability, prohibiting temple entries, or is involved in denying education to dalits, etc. But all of these brahmins are the regular ones living a secular life, the kind that one comes across in everday life....

The prob is only with priests and establishments who propagate untouchability in the present times. You need not consider the questioning as some sort of an attack on all brahmins.

Entire communities (for all communities) cannot be wrong or be made up all bad apples. Only some individuals are the problem-harbingers. In the case of priests practicing untouchability, they are living in a long gone past. They need to wake up to changing realities and adapt / move with the times. And that, imo, would be in their own best interests.

Regards.

 

[happyhindu]

Am so sorry Shri KRS ji. I should have mentioned you. Am very aware you stand for equality for all. I must admit that I find the postings between you and Nara a wee bit beyond my ability to understand. So i was really not sure what was it you meant. All i understood from your posts is that you were meaning to say that the present day folks should not be denied opportunities bcoz of the actions of their forefathers. I totally agree with that. Nobody can be marginalized wrt academic opportunities bcoz of the past (if we were to keep beleiveing in an eye for an eye, then the whole world wud go blind and there wud be no end to it). And if i were to be held responsible for the past mistakes of my immediate forefathers, then i proabably shd be cut into pieces and fed to wild animals in a forest.

The discussions on how reservations shd be measured (b/w you and shri Nara) i cud not follow properly. One reason is I only skimmed thru the posts and it wud take time for me to read thru and understand them well. Btw, Shri KRS ji, you have always known that i love you. Sometimes i might be taken aback by what you write but certainly you and i have an instinctive understanding for each other. Regards.

 

[tbs]

hi folks,
those who talk about against jaati and caste system in india particular in tamil nadu....everybody think about ONLY brahmins are talking jaati
and all others casteless...read here
வன்னியருக்கு 20% ஒதுக்கீடு கேட்டு மீண்டும் போராட்டம்: ராமதாஸ் எச்சரிக்கை
வன்னியருக்கு 20% ஒதுக்கீடு கேட்டு மீண்டும் போராட்டம்: ராமதாஸ் எச்சரிக்கை

courtesy dinamani 07/27/2010

regards
tbs

 

[KRS]

Dear Srimathi HH Ji,

No worries, as they say in Australia. The reason I siad what I said above was to make sure that we are still simpatico on discrimination.

I hate prejudice, because it leads to discrimination. And the worst kind is a government discrimination to her minorities (the FC is ofcourse a minority).

I also hate ideology. Ideologies are a convenient way to be lazy and not think through issues. I try to think about each issue on it's own merit. So sometimes I take a stand that counters the thinking from an ideological and label perspective. I am not a conservative or liberal, I am not a communist, socialist or a capitalist, I am not a Hindu, Jewish or a follower of any religion and definitely I am not an atheist. I am not a traditionalist nor a progressive. What I am is a free thinking human being, with a deep appreciation for my culture (because I am standing on my elders' shoulders after all), while trying to understand the true meaning of the saying 'to know me you need to walk a mile in my moccasins. I do not demonize any 'class' of people. Today we do not need to. To me, a single person hurt is not acceptable. I dislike broad strokes to correct social ills without concern for an individual.

I am responding to Professor Nara Ji, but his statement that ( I am praphrasing) 'hey what's the problem? 3% of the population still has access to 30%; of the jobs" troubles me greatly. Who has decided 30%? Why 30%? Is this the right %? Such questions can not be answered, because the quota system is by design a pay back system. Anyways, I will address this directly to him in my response that is due.

But what I am foremost is, I guess, a humanist. I like this adjective. Because this means that I do not follow any theoretical ideology that accepts the dictum of Dr. Spock. What benefits the majority overrides the interests of a minority. This is crap, I believe that in modern times there is no need to hurt anyone on a official basis.

This is why I abhor the leftist, fundamentalist thinking of all hues.

By the way, I am preparing a detailed response to Prof. Nara's post which I will be posting in a day or two.

Please understand that I want the disadvantaged to succeed everywhere, especially in India. But when I see wrong headed policies that prevent this, then I have to speak the Truth.

I do not consider you, as I have stated before, as an outsider. You belong to the 'Brahmin' community, not in the sense of a caste, but from the viewpoint of the quality of a human being. To me that is what matters.

Regards,
KRS

Am so sorry Shri KRS ji. I should have mentioned you. Am very aware you stand for equality for all. I must admit that I find the postings between you and Nara a wee bit beyond my ability to understand. So i was really not sure what was it you meant. All i understood from your posts is that you were meaning to say that the present day folks should not be denied opportunities bcoz of the actions of their forefathers. I totally agree with that. Nobody can be marginalized wrt academic opportunities bcoz of the past (if we were to keep beleiveing in an eye for an eye, then the whole world wud go blind and there wud be no end to it). And if i were to be held responsible for the past mistakes of my immediate forefathers, then i proabably shd be cut into pieces and fed to wild animals in a forest.

The discussions on how reservations shd be measured (b/w you and shri Nara) i cud not follow properly. One reason is I only skimmed thru the posts and it wud take time for me to read thru and understand them well. Btw, Shri KRS ji, you have always known that i love you. Sometimes i might be taken aback by what you write but certainly you and i have an instinctive understanding for each other. Regards.

 

[sangom]

...Further, I am not creating any problems for Brahmins. If anything I want to encourage Brahmins to get out of the cocoon. I did. For many years I was struck inside this cocoon and enjoying it -- like that king who was born as a pig and didn't want to be killed when his friend came for the pig's head as he had requested him to do so earlier. Inside the cocoon there was only black and white, separated by a narrow band of bland gray, which they called ஆபத்துக்கு பாவமில்லை and before getting back to black and white there is always சேது ஸ்நானம்.

Dear Prof. Nara,
This is the exact description of the brahmin mentality of the present times. I think it will be difficult to improve upon this. People do not dare to think outside the limited range and are blissfully happy in praising "our culture", "our heritage", etc., without attempting, in the least, to know what all happened to the so-called "our culture" in the past. They are perhaps more knowledgeable than I and are afraid to face the truth. And if I write like this, it can and will be construed as against brahmins.

Then, slowly I stuck my head out and saw an array of vibrant colors. Still, I was afraid to leave the cozy and comfortable cocoon. I did not want to upset the other inhabitants of the cocoon. But the draw of the freedom and beauty of the multicolored world was too much to resist. Finally I broke free and since then I have been having a ball. I wish others stuck in the black/white cocoon to come out like butterflies and make this world a better place. Do you think this is causing trouble to brahmins?

Even in the historical development of Hinduism such "breaking the cocoon" has happened, as you know. Because of Buddha and Mahavira (mainly those two, but there were lesser personalities including Charvaka, who along with all his works, was annihilated by the people who were staunch believers of the opposite point of view) the cocoon of Vedic animal sacrifices could be broken and it could be consigned to the dust bin with the label "Purva Mimansa" after Sankara's time. Such incidents have happened subsequently also but now people probably want some new Avatar to make us take the next step. Unfortunately none of the modern day gurus seems to be interested in upsetting the status quo.

 

[suraju06]

Shri RVR,

Are you saying that individuals who practice untouchability should be left alone? I suppose you have not understood the indian constitution. It does allow freedom of faith, but there are acts that disallow and make untouchability punishable by law. Individuals and institutions that practice untouchability are not exempted from the law on the basis of freedom of faith (such a 'freedom' is not freedom, it is misuse and abuse of freedom).

In today's times 'dalits' require:

1) The right to worship: So-called 'upper-castes' can insist that 'untouchables' have to bathe and skip non-veg on the days the enter a temple. Yes, for some temples, certain rules can be laid down. But no one can insist that dalits cannot enter a temple "by birth". However, even today there are priests who debar 'dalits' from entering temples because of birth. And self-appointed 'kshatriyas' who enforce such things using fear.

2) The right to education: Similarly, in this day and age, no one can insist that shudras have no right to study. But again, there are priests who insist upon it, and folks who discriminate against dalits in schools.


Why do you think there is no point in raising such issues here? This is an open forum specifically meant for brahmins. Obviously such questions will be asked here. And am sure, priests or some of their relatives or their acquaintainces, will be reading stuff here.

The Kashi Tulsi Temple priest openly says he does not accept the Indian constitution. He has been jailed for practicing untouchability. That's the maximum the law presently can do -- only jail an individual for a few days / months. Beyond that the law has not devised a punishment yet.

As long as brahmanical establishments perpetuate doctrines of untouchability, based on the rigid 'by-birth' caste system, the ideology of discrimination will continue to be perpetuated.

Around me, i know of elders who do not practice untouchability (but however, will not accept NBs as priests). As such, i may hope that once the generation of my elders is over, then this untouchability ideology saga and non-acceptance of NBs as priests, will be "phased out". But you see, the elders are influenced by their parents, and grandparents who in turn were following their acharyas. So who is to blame - the individuals, or the doctrine? Imo, its the doctrine that needs to be addressed. It cannot be passed down into the future generations.

Each time, anyone raises questions on birth-based doctrines, some folk see it as an attack on all brahmins, or on the whole of hinduism, why?

As regards the brahmanical establishments and priests, is it so difficult to merely discard a few things from the scriptural pov in today's world? If already no one is following the 'shastras' then why are priests / brahmanical establishments vociferously advocating such things ? And is it true that no one (absolutely no one) is practicing discrimination today? Both in tamilnadu and the rest of India? (btw, its not about just tamilnadu alone).

If you are interested in certain things, good for you. If folks like me and Nara are interested in openly discussing the caste issue from the scriptural pov, i do not think it should bother you. There is no need to imagine things about goodwill. If you do not like certain topics, ofcourse you can keep away from them. Nobody is forced to participate in or read up all threads.

Hello HH,
will you please tell what you mean by untouchability? please define the term first. Thank you. Cheers.

 

[suraju06]

Dear RVR sir, When a Toyota car speeds away uncontrollably, it is the designer who must be held responsible. In as much as these are caste based atrocities, the designer of caste system must be held responsible. Putting all the blame on the front line soldiers who know no better and refusing to take any blame for having designed this wicked system, and given it spiritual sanction, is so, is so, how should I say, Brahmin????

dear nara, excuse me for intervening. The point you have missed is that the toyota was designed as per the design parameters given and other inputs given by the so called 'front line soldiers for their preveleged exclusive use.The toyota was made to order. now the 'front line soldiers' who placed the order cannot wriggle out of their responsibility.

The older Dalits accept their station and do not want to upset the apple cart. But the youngsters are assertive. They are fed up with the daily humiliations. What they reject foremost is Brahhminism.

they are fed up with the daily humiliations -- yes.And what they reject foremost is brahminism-- no. It is not brahminism as defined by and understood by the hypocritical, dominent middle castes and their 'revolutionary' supporters. Actually dalits clearly understand an attempt by these castes to distance themselves from the monster they created and are controlling even today. Dalits prefer to call it by the name casteism.They also know that these dominant castes would like them to forget all the atrocities and be friendly with them even while living in their own cheries (ghettos) even while these so-called soldiers go about nominating candidates for elections purely on the basis of castes and subcastes election after election.

They hold the bitter enemies of Brahminsim in very high regard and esteem. Think about that. Between Rajaji and EVR, it is EVR they respect. Between Gandhi and BRA, it is BRA they adore.

If you are talkng about the younger generation you cannot bring in Rajaji and Gandhi. Leaving that aside, they do not consider that the so called bitter enemies are enemies of casteism. they know that they are enemies of only brahmins. tamil dalits have no respect for EVR.Indian dalits respect BRA but then who told you Gandhi is a brahmin? Can you prove that Gandhi was not against casteism? Can you give any documentary evidence?

I am going to ask you for some documented evidence for this, (i) lot of attacks and (ii) mostly living in fear. I have highlighted these two phrases above

In Tuticorin in the year 1959 there was an agitation by a dravidian outfit to change the name of a colony from 'Brahmin's colony' to some thing else. The marauding foot soldiers entered into each brahmin house and created mayhem and molested the women folk. I was witness to this. If you will believe only documents go through the newspapers of that whole year and u may get a five lines of reported news in one corner. I can narrate any number of such instances.

From my experience and the experience of my relatives living in Tamil Nadu cities and villages, I can say that this just cannot be substantiated. If all you have are the usual unverifiable personal observations and episodes, just don't bother, they don't count as evidence. For each such personal episode I can also give 100 episodes. I myself have traveled all over Tamil Nadu, from Chennai to Kanyakumari, from Ramanathapuram to Coimbatore, all over Thanjavur dt., and everywhere in between, in orthodox Brahmin attire, often using public transportation, never encountering anything remotely resembling even snide mocking, let alone attacks leading to fear. Of all the mind bending assertions I have seen, this one takes the cake.

Please read what is given above once more.

Let us not kid ourselves, the reason for this economic opportunity that TBs are good at sniffing out.

Yes. let us not kid ourselves.

 

[happyhindu]

untouchability, in the context of my post that you quoted, means allowing 'dalits' the right to worship in temples, the right to study, and in the heart of our hearts not considering them inferior in any form, and seeing them as folk who deserve all encouragement to progress in life.

Hello HH,
will you please tell what you mean by untouchability? please define the term first. Thank you. Cheers.

 

[Nara]

The point you have missed is that the toyota was designed as per the design parameters given and other inputs given by the so called 'front line soldiers for their preveleged exclusive use.The toyota was made to order. now the 'front line soldiers' who placed the order cannot wriggle out of their responsibility.

Dear Raju,

If I understand you correctly, what you are saying is the upper caste NBs forced the Brahmins to write all these oppressive laws for their benefit or something along those lines. If my memory is not failing me, you expressed this opinion earlier also.

If this was the case why would the upper caste NBs put Bs on top? Since the Bs were forced to do this, they could have been forced to put the upper caste NBs on top of the Bs.

Further, this assumes that the upper caste NBs were not bright enough and not persuasive enough as the Bs, to be able to write these laws on their own and make them acceptable for everyone.

May be I am just plain stupid, but, to me at least, this makes no sense.

Let us assume for a moment that your are right and the upper caste NBs forced Bs to write all these nasty laws. But, in the present times, when everyone is decrying this jati system, what is preventing Bs from declaring that they were forced by upper caste NBs and they no longer subscribe to this oppressive system? No NB is pointing a gun at the head of Brahmins. Call their bluff, I say.

Kanchi Sankarachariyar has a very large following among TBs, he could come out and say the Brahmins of yore were forced to create this system, we really didn't want it, and neither did we benefit from it, so the system has no effect any more, all verses that reference caste in our scriptures are hereby expunged with immediate effect.

A similar statement can be made by SV acharyas, like Srimat Azhagiya Singar, Srimat Andavan Swami, and Swami Vanamamalai Jeeyar.

We all know that expecting this to happen is just plain silly.

Brahminism is at the root of the Jati system and the buck has to stop with Brahminists.

Answers to the rest of your comments can be found from my original post itself, I think I don't have to restate them.

Cheers!

 

[Nara]

Dear Shri KRS, Greetings!

...I am responding to Professor Nara Ji, but his statement that ( I am praphrasing) 'hey what's the problem? 3% of the population still has access to 30%

By the way, I am preparing a detailed response to Prof. Nara's post which I will be posting in a day or two.

I will wait your detailed response, but we are so set in our opinions I don't know where there is room for any further clarification.

Yet we labor on and that is fine with me.

When you state my position the way you do, I think I will myself oppose my own position .

As you said earlier, life is unfair. The role of the government is to make it as less unfair as possible. I think that is what they are doing with the reservation system, and you think different.

A brief look at our history shows that Brahmins as a group always found patronage from the ruling elite. Now, that patronage is gone, but they still find sufficient support from the rich and powerful. Just a few years back, the Mathuranthakam Ahobila Matam school received more than Rs 3 crores from a single Brahmin individual. There is another generously funded Veda Patashala in Selaiyur, Chennai. Kanchi Matam is probably 100 times more wealthy than Sri Ahobila Matam.

BTW, the Mathuranthakam school gets Indian government funding, and Selaiyur Patashala trust is a 80G trust. Yet, they both discriminate against NB.

The life of a poor Brahmin boy is tough, but not impossible, there are places for him to go where he can get fed, get at least rudimentary education, and if sufficiently enterprising, pull himself up by the bootstraps. However, if government support was not extended to the poor Dalits, they will be living the same life their forefathers have lived for millennia.

If the capacity of educational institutions is limitless there would be no problem. In many state funded Universities in the U.S., we have open enrollment, namely, any applicant meeting minimum admission standards is admitted. But this is not the case in India. The demand far exceeds supply.

Educational opportunities reaching broad cross section of the society is a compelling interest of a government. For this to happen in an environment when demand far exceeds supply, some zero-sum choices are inevitable.

To my knowledge, nobody is completely shut out of college education. Some boys may not be able to get into Medical or Engineering, etc. You prefer to characterize this as punishment, but I don't. Nobody who wants one, gets completely shut out from college education.

Cheers!

 

[nachi naga]

nara ,less than 100 years back,african,chinese,japanese,indian..etc origin people were/are treated differently compared to caucasian people from europe,in usa/canada.instead of diverting your time and energy where you live,on the contrary you are trying to find ways and means of eradicating somethings in India.Does not make any sense to me.But sure adds the stir to everflowing cauldron of ethnic mixture India has got.Life in usa is a simple one.One religion christaniy.one language english.one color white.just dominates.if anyone messes,he/she is done away with to ignominy.while there is no fear but certainly rascism exists in usa,can you deny it?

 

[KRS]

Dear Professor Nara Ji,

Please forgive me for my tardiness, but your earlier posting about the reaseach paper deserves a detailed reply. Since I can not spend more than a few minutes today, I am choosing to respond to your latest posting. I will reply to the other post in a day or so.

No one can argue with the truth that the dalits are in poor shape. And they have to be helped as any poor in India have to be helped. I also understand that they have an additional barrier, namely, centuries of discrimination which was, as you say institutionalized.

My only point is that the Government is going about the wrong way in helping them. As the research shows, which is common sense, the community lacks the tools necessary to succeed. By allocating seats in the Universities and lowering the requirements for meeting the quota, school they are short changing the very people they are trying to help. I think all the efforts must be in building up their self esteem from young age, giving special attention to the deeply embedded culture where education is not viewed very highly. In effect they need to become accultured to the idea of the benefit of education. I would even recommend the government starting special primary and secondary schools where they will predominantly admit them for first class education - but not a quota system. Since by law, going to school is mandatory at that age, there is no question of discriminating against anyone. This way, over a few generations they will be flourishing as a community. I would not even mind an affirmative program like US where they are given preference in higher education as long as everything else is equal.

As I have said, this is all hard work. But if the government does not do them, the very community they shout about helping will not be able to compete in this rapidly changing world. My belief is that, India with her current growth can support an initiative like the one I drew up above.

But somehow I do not think that will happen. Looking back, Nehru Ji's policies, patterned after never tested before academic theories, favoured to put money in a way that was not generally effective. Only now I understand why the Mahathma wanted the money to go to the development of villages rather than the cities.

I do not believe in any zero sum games. Let us help everyone, which India can do, while uplift the dalits in ways, where they can really succeed in today's world.

Is this too much to ask?

Regards,
KRS

 

[Nara]

... My only point is that the Government is going about the wrong way in helping them. As the research shows, which is common sense, the community lacks the tools necessary to succeed. By allocating seats in the Universities and lowering the requirements for meeting the quota,

I support all the help at the primary and secondary levels. I also support the reservation system at higher secondary level. The difference in cut off points are so nominal that it is not tenable to argue there is a significant degradation of merit.

I do not believe in any zero sum games. Let us help everyone, which India can do, while uplift the dalits in ways, where they can really succeed in today's world.

Nobody in their right senses will argue in favor of zero-sum policies, but when the resources are limited, one is forced into a zero-sum situation.

In the U.S. the affirmative action extends way beyond educational institutions, it covers private industry as well. In India, their version of affirmative action covers only portion of the educational institutions and government entities. Under the so called management quota anyone meeting minimum requirement can be admitted. What about the degradation of merit of these individuals?

It seems to me that you want to make an omelet without breaking the egg. If you can find a way to that, I am sure you can make a fortune out of it.

Cheers!

 

[KRS]

Dear Prof. Nara Ji,

I just happened to see this - let me take a minute to respond in 'blue'.

I support all the help at the primary and secondary levels. I also support the reservation system at higher secondary level. The difference in cut off points are so nominal that it is not tenable to argue there is a significant degradation of merit.
So, what you are saying is, that you do not believe in a secular nation to take care of ALL of her citizens equally. Even though the disadvantaged gets prepared for competition aqt the higher levels of education, you want to give special status for them because they have been oppressed so long, by discriminating against the progenies of their oppressors?

Nobody in their right senses will argue in favor of zero-sum policies, but when the resources are limited, one is forced into a zero-sum situation.
But we have already established that, if the government spends enough resources at the primary and swecondary levels to adequately ensure the educational participation by the Dalits (equalling those of the FCs), then what is the need for the zero sum situation at the college level? With the US style affirmatice action, they can compete with others, can they not?

In the U.S. the affirmative action extends way beyond educational institutions, it covers private industry as well. In India, their version of affirmative action covers only portion of the educational institutions and government entities. Under the so called management quota anyone meeting minimum requirement can be admitted. What about the degradation of merit of these individuals?
Because in US, a lot of private enterprise look at uplifting the society as a corporate responsibility. They are not forced to do it - the only edict is that they do not discriminate on the basis of race, religion, sex or age. Are you saying that the private industry in the US has a quota? I do not understand your remark above. Please explain.

It seems to me that you want to make an omelet without breaking the egg. If you can find a way to that, I am sure you can make a fortune out of it.
No, Professor, I do not agree with your analogy. If 'breaking an egg' hurts someone, what is wrong in hard boiling the same egg and enjoying it that way? An egg can be consumed in many different ways.

This is why I do not accept your argument.

Regards,
KRS


Cheers!

 

[RVR]

Prof Nara,

My replies are in blue.

Dear RVR sir, When a Toyota car speeds away uncontrollably, it is the designer who must be held responsible. In as much as these are caste based atrocities, the designer of caste system must be held responsible. Putting all the blame on the front line soldiers who know no better and refusing to take any blame for having designed this wicked system, and given it spiritual sanction, is so, is so, how should I say, Brahmin????

Gandhi said, "My belief in the Hindu scriptures does not require me to accept every word and every verse as divinely inspired .... I decline to be bound by any interpretation, however learned it may be, if it is repugnant to reason or moral sense" (The Collected Work of Mahatma Gandhi, The Publication Division, Government of India, Vol. XXI, p. 246). Yet Gandhi was only following Hindu law. "Every shastra and epic states that no age is identical to other ages, therefore the law of every age must be different. Dharma changes from age to age depending on circumstances. It is this that has allowed Hinduism to withstand ravages or war and time, constantly remoulding itself to survive."


Mahatma Gandhi is the father of the nation and I firmly believe in his words as well as the Consitution of India. If you don't want to believe him and still stick to the old scriptures which no body knows when it was written, I have nothing to say further.

The older Dalits accept their station and do not want to upset the apple cart. But the youngsters are assertive. They are fed up with the daily humiliations. What they reject foremost is Brahhminism. They hold the bitter enemies of Brahminsim in very high regard and esteem. Think about that. Between Rajaji and EVR, it is EVR they respect. Between Gandhi and BRA, it is BRA they adore.

You make your own assumptions regarding daliths believing in some leaders.. The person who did the dastarly crime of burning 44 daliths in a hut at Kizhaavenmani belongs to the same caste of EVR, father of the Dravidian movement and the incident happened immediately after DMK came to power in 1967. Again it is your own assumption which I don't want to comment on it.




I am going to ask you for some documented evidence for this, (i) lot of attacks and (ii) mostly living in fear. I have highlighted these two phrases above.

From my experience and the experience of my relatives living in Tamil Nadu cities and villages, I can say that this just cannot be substantiated. If all you have are the usual unverifiable personal observations and episodes, just don't bother, they don't count as evidence. For each such personal episode I can also give 100 episodes. I myself have traveled all over Tamil Nadu, from Chennai to Kanyakumari, from Ramanathapuram to Coimbatore, all over Thanjavur dt., and everywhere in between, in orthodox Brahmin attire, often using public transportation, never encountering anything remotely resembling even snide mocking, let alone attacks leading to fear. Of all the mind bending assertions I have seen, this one takes the cake.

Even last year Subramanyam Swamy was attacked at Madras Highcourt with rotton eggs in broad daylight invoking the caste names and called dog in front of the Judges.

Advocates assault Subramanian Swamy | | | Indian Express

If Swamy can be attacked inside the court infront of Judges by learned lawyers, do you think there is safety for ordinary brahmins in an unprotected area.

If you don't want to believe all the above then I don't want to say anything further.

Let us not kid ourselves, the reason for this economic opportunity that TBs are good at sniffing out.


All communities are looking for greener pastures and migrate. In Kerala, almost all communites (Hindus belonging to all castes, Muslims and Christians) have a relative in gulf. Do you think all Tamil Migrants to Gulf,Malaysia, Singapore, Mauritus, Europe, USA, Australia and New Zealand are only Tamil Brahmins. Again if you want to target only tamil brahmins , please do it.
Cheers!

All the best

 

[nachi naga]

i am wondering about the egg that a woman produces,looks yummy (it's a joke )

 

[sangom]

Prof Nara,

My replies are in blue.
Gandhi said, "My belief in the Hindu scriptures does not require me to accept every word and every verse as divinely inspired .... I decline to be bound by any interpretation, however learned it may be, if it is repugnant to reason or moral sense" (The Collected Work of Mahatma Gandhi, The Publication Division, Government of India, Vol. XXI, p. 246). Yet Gandhi was only following Hindu law. "Every shastra and epic states that no age is identical to other ages, therefore the law of every age must be different. Dharma changes from age to age depending on circumstances. It is this that has allowed Hinduism to withstand ravages or war and time, constantly remoulding itself to survive."


Mahatma Gandhi is the father of the nation and I firmly believe in his words. If you don't want to believe him and still stick to the old scriptures which no body knows when it was written, I have nothing to say further.All the best

Dear RVR,

Excuse me for interfering in between. If we subscribe to Gandhi's view, whatever now happens, or is happening on the caste front can also be taken as the Dharma of the present age. So, the reservations in education and jobs for SC/ST as well as MCBs, the atrocities (we term it so, and in Rama's time - if he was for real - Sambuka's people would have termed the punishment meted out to Sambuka as atrocity, Vali's friends would have done the same, Ekalavya's people would have felt the same) being committed will also be the Dharma of the present times. Perhaps Gandhi had his own interpretation of everything and he could get away with it though his views often did not find favour with many of the other leaders like Nehru, Patel, Kidwai etc. But if his statement is to be accepted prima facie, then everything that happens is according to Dharma, which "changes from age to age depending on circumstances".

All discussions about reservations, atrocities etc., will become meaningless, unless we want adharma to be brought in now!

 

[nachi naga]

In the U.S. the affirmative action extends way beyond educational institutions, it covers private industry as well. In India, their version of affirmative action covers only portion of the educational institutions and government entities. Under the so called management quota anyone meeting minimum requirement can be admitted. What about the degradation of merit of these individuals?

what is happening in usa,is twisted truth.the private industry uses people in their prime,and promptly dumps them to hire fresh blood.unless one is constantly updating & upgrading one skills and talents,only unemployment benefits,social security,doles and grants loom largely.thankfully social security was not touched during 2000-2008 and invested in shares and stocks,by this time,the bail out for tat would have come from another nation.right now,to get out of the mess,itself is getting so messy,its as if,some conspiracy is at work,to shoot at your own legs here now.thank god gas prices increases are sustaining the revenues and promptly foreign intelligence infiltrated in the greatest oil leaks in the country.greed is the root cause,in pursuit of happiness.on a piece of paper,usa is bankrupt and china is holding the iou from usa!in fact the brightest and the best,made us paupers.

 

[happyhindu]

Nara:
The older Dalits accept their station and do not want to upset the apple cart. But the youngsters are assertive. They are fed up with the daily humiliations. What they reject foremost is Brahhminism. They hold the bitter enemies of Brahminsim in very high regard and esteem. Think about that. Between Rajaji and EVR, it is EVR they respect. Between Gandhi and BRA, it is BRA they adore.

RVR's response:
You make your own assumptions regarding daliths believing in some leaders.. The person who did the dastarly crime of burning 44 daliths in a hut at Kizhaavenmani belongs to the same caste of EVR, father of the Dravidian movement and the incident happened immediately after DMK came to power in 1967. Again it is your own assumption which I don't want to comment on it.

Small corrections about the point in bold:
EVR and Irinjur Gopalakrishna Naidu were not of the same caste. The former was a balija and the latter apparently was a kamma.

This incident happened in 1968.

Gopalkrishna did not do the act of burning down huts himself or get his hands dirty (how typical, isn't it).

Landlords of that area belonged to various castes. They had an association, called the Paddy Producers Association (PPA) of which, Gopalakrishna was the head.

All the landlords were against wage increase for farmers. To manage the demands of the farmers, and as the head of the association, gopalkrishna created a band of people (a group of 'outside workers") to oppress the farmers, to control them or terrorize them.

That group of "outside workers' torched 25 huts. Many 'dalits' sought refuge in a single hut but that also got burnt down.

I do not understand your connection of mentioning DMK coming to power in this situation. But its not as if DMK did not do anything. However, i feel the work done by the communists for the labourers was not popularized by the media.

This is somewhat detailed and useful:
Keezhavenmani revisited However, i am interested in knowing more about this incident. If you have more detailed info please let me know.

Meanwhile, the Nagappattinam taluk unit of the Paddy Producers Association came under the control of Irinjur Gopalakrishna Naidu, a landlord, who formed a brigade of volunteers allegedly to oppress the workers through intimidation, undertake harvest operations, and let loose terror.

THIS was the situation when the Keezhavenmani carnage happened. The major issue was the refusal of landlords to yield to the agricultural workers' demand for higher wages since the earlier agreement had lapsed. The workers demanded six litres of paddy for every 48 litres harvested, but the Paddy Producers Association did not agree. Wherever workers insisted on the higher wage, the association arranged for carrying out harvest operations with "outside" labour in violation of the understanding between the disputants under earlier wage accords.

Wherever the landlord offered to pay higher wages, the Producers Association protested and warned of counter action. The association allegedly threatened the agricultural workers in Keezhavenmani around December 10 that their huts would be torched. Leaders of agricultural workers said that the taluk secretary of the CPI(M) and party legislator K.R. Gnanasambandan had written to the State Chief Secretary about the threat and asked for protection to them. (But a communication from the Chief Secretary, however, reportedly stated that the legislator's letter had reached him only in January.) Both the letters were of no avail.

The apprehensions of the labour leaders were proved right on December 25. The Hindu's lead story on December 27, 1968, reported that 42 persons, mostly Harijans (as Dalits were called then), were burnt alive on the night of December 25, and that the gruesome incident followed a clash between two groups of kisans. It said: "Twenty-five huts in all were burnt to ashes. The victims are said to have taken refuge in a hut, which was among those destroyed." The report gives the information that the landowners refused to concede the demand of "Marxist kisans" that they be paid a harvest wage of six litres of paddy and went ahead with harvesting that day engaging labour from a neighbouring village. When these "outside" workers were returning after work in the evening, the report said, "a group of about 200 persons attacked them, armed with deadly weapons". In the clash that followed, Pakkirisami Pillai, a farm worker, sustained stab injuries, which proved fatal. The "outside" workers ran away and the attacking mob chased them. According to the report, around 10 p.m., another group of about 200 persons were said to have marched to Keezhavenmani, where a clash followed. Gunshots were also heard during this clash. Twenty-five houses were set on fire. The inmates of huts ran out and were said to have taken refuge in a single hut, which was among those burnt down, the report said. Nineteen persons injured in both the clashes were hospitalised. The report said that Gopalakrishna Naidu was among those taken into custody. The report refers briefly to the kisan trouble in East Thanjavur district for two months.

Although a police station was within 5 km from the village, the police came to the spot hours after the incidents. Senior police officials reportedly came only the next morning. Despite prohibitory orders, hundreds of people visited the village.

Chief Minister C.N. Annadurai observed: "The incident is so savage and gruesome that words fail me to express my agony and anguish" and deputed two Ministers, M. Karunanidhi and S. Madhavan, to visit the village and report to him. The eighth congress of the CPI(M), then being held in Kochi, expressed its shock over "the inhuman act of vandalism of the landlords' goondas" and directed P. Ramamurti, member of the party's Polit Bureau and Member of Parliament, K.R. Gnanasambandam, member of the Tamil Nadu Assembly, to rush to the village. Ramamurti visited the village and later held discussions with the Chief Minister.

Two days later, Annadurai announced that a one-man commission, headed by Justice Ganapathia Pillai, would inquire "into the problems of agricultural labour, the relationship between the labourer and the landlord, and connected issues in East Thanjavur". Another immediate action taken by the government was to bifurcate the Thanjavur police district and appoint Walter Devaram Superintendent of Police for East Thanjavur with Nagapattinam as headquarters.

 

[RVR]

Dear RVR,

Excuse me for interfering in between. If we subscribe to Gandhi's view, whatever now happens, or is happening on the caste front can also be taken as the Dharma of the present age. So, the reservations in education and jobs for SC/ST as well as MCBs, the atrocities (we term it so, and in Rama's time - if he was for real - Sambuka's people would have termed the punishment meted out to Sambuka as atrocity, Vali's friends would have done the same, Ekalavya's people would have felt the same) being committed will also be the Dharma of the present times. Perhaps Gandhi had his own interpretation of everything and he could get away with it though his views often did not find favour with many of the other leaders like Nehru, Patel, Kidwai etc. But if his statement is to be accepted prima facie, then everything that happens is according to Dharma, which "changes from age to age depending on circumstances".

All discussions about reservations, atrocities etc., will become meaningless, unless we want adharma to be brought in now!

Sangom Sir,

Please read the statement of Mahatma Gandhi care fully. He clearly says he will not accept any scripture if it is against moral and ethical values.

Personally I also subscribe to Mahatma Gandhi's view which I have decalared in the forum long back.

In spite of it, some people here are digging into the past scriptures which none of us know when it was written and try to embarrass us again and again.

When the Constitution of India was accepted in 1950, it became the accepted civil code for all the citizens of India irrespective of their personal faith.

Muslim sharia t law doesn't prescribe compensation for divorced women. But Supreme Court ruled that every divorced Muslim woman is eligible for compensation from his erstwhile husband. In fact Supreme court has directed the Government of India to enact a uniform civil code for all the citizens of the country which the Government is delaying for obvious reasons.

Bible says world is flat

http://www.answering-christianity.com/earth_flat.htm

Is the Government of India or any other state Government asking Christians to amend the above sentence in Bible to continue their faith in Christianity within India?

Because Brahmins are soft targets everywhere including here, questions relating to our old scriptures are repeatedly raised again and again.

That is why I suspect that some other religion may be funding them to raise questions here.

Muslims may not indulge in such things but missionaries will go to any extent.

I have my own experience of how the missionaries will indulge in such activities. I am a member of the society which is running Shri Vaishnavi Temple at Thirumullaivaayil.

Sri Vaishnavi Shrine, Aavadi (Chennai)

We provide accommodation for those who do service to the Devi. We don't discriminate the inmates based on caste when we provide accommodation. Mostly retired widowers settle in the temple campus and participate in the temple activities. Eventhough we allow other religious people to perform pooja to the Devi directly, we don't allow other religious people to stay inside the premises.

On one fine morning to everybody's shock, an elderly occupant came out of his cottage with a cross hanging in his neck and holding a bible in his hand. He said he has changed his name into `John Naidu' and changed his faith to Christianity. We had an awkward time and finally he agreed to vacate his residential accommodation and leave the premises. We never knew that he is following some other faith inside his cottage in the campus.

After that incident, I am always suspicious about the missionaries and their unethical activities

All the best