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Divorced girl to which Gothra she belong

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R

Ramacchandran

Guest
Now a days we see lots of profiles titled as "Divorced". The girl born in 1987/88 married two years back, after 18 months applied for divorce and got it. She married other caste. When putting her name in a matrimonial website whether she should put and accept the same gothra she born as she already changed gothra?

Even there are lots of divorced ladies and gents and since it is mainly for brides I put this question here.
 

kunjuppu

Active member
ramacc,

do we care what gothram a divorced belongs? is not she beyond all this, the minute she divorces? also in these days of girls only small nuclear families, maybe we should re think the concept of gothrams being patrilineal.

maybe it is high time that the children, could choose or opt between mummy's and daddy's gothram - whichever will keep them from the confusion of eventual saha-gothra marriages?
 
The girl who is divorced reverts back to the Gotra to which she belonged before marriage. That is her father's Gotra. Even when she had changed her gotra at the time of marriage to a Brahmin. Since the marriage is dissolved she reverts back to the father's gotra.

This is the general rule. Not as per any Smiriti.
 

renuka

Well-known member
Dear all,

Can anyone shed some light here..How does ones Gotra change after marriage..is it like how westerners adopt their husbands name after marriage..for example Hillary Clinton takes on name of Clinton after marriage to Bill Clinton or is this change of one's Gotra more complex than that?

Basically..can anyone really change in any aspect?
Our genes and DNA dont..so how does this Gotra change come about?

And what about those who have no Gotra..what about them?Me for example..I dont even know what my Gotra is dont even know if I have one? and neither does my husband know his Gotra(if he has one) so how do these rules apply for a person like me?

Would appreciate some feedback please..
 

kunjuppu

Active member
renu,

this is one of those patrlineal stuff of hindu heritage, i believe.

by her very nature, the female has to be owned. ok?

till her marriage, it is her dad (his gothra gives her a lineage), after marriage she comes under the care of the husband (adopts his lineage - please dont ask me how or why) and finally, after the hubby pops off, and while she is occupied full time making life hell for the dil, she still owns the hubby's gothra.

this gothra stuff, is more than adopting a last name.

for example, if you happen to fall in love with a guy, whose antecedents are in no way related to yours, but happen to be the same gothra, it is a no-no. for in the language of tradition, you are brother sister. however, there is nothing wrong in marrying your maternal uncle, maternal boy cousin (if you are female) or paternal girl cousin (if you are male).

this concept of gothra is held very strong for arranged tambram marriages (this is the only ones that i know). i can go on,but will stop here.

based on your further query, i will try to give my pov.

thank you.
 

renuka

Well-known member
renu,

this is one of those patrlineal stuff of hindu heritage, i believe.

by her very nature, the female has to be owned. ok?

till her marriage, it is her dad (his gothra gives her a lineage), after marriage she comes under the care of the husband (adopts his lineage - please dont ask me how or why) and finally, after the hubby pops off, and while she is occupied full time making life hell for the dil, she still owns the hubby's gothra.

this gothra stuff, is more than adopting a last name.

for example, if you happen to fall in love with a guy, whose antecedents are in no way related to yours, but happen to be the same gothra, it is a no-no. for in the language of tradition, you are brother sister. however, there is nothing wrong in marrying your maternal uncle, maternal boy cousin (if you are female) or paternal girl cousin (if you are male).

this concept of gothra is held very strong for arranged tambram marriages (this is the only ones that i know). i can go on,but will stop here.

based on your further query, i will try to give my pov.

thank you.

Dear Kunjs,
Thanks for response..my further query is just on technical grounds for knowledge purposes.

renu
 
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R

Ramacchandran

Guest
My next doubt is here!
A lady of A gothra marries a boy of Y gothra and gets a male child. After couple of years she marries a boy from Z Gothra and gets a male child. Suddenly the biological father (Y Gothra) dies and whether the boy of Y gothra should do karma and tharpana and thidhi or just ignore and follow Z gothra?
 
N

nachi naga

Guest
My next doubt is here!
A lady of A gothra marries a boy of Y gothra and gets a male child. After couple of years she marries a boy from ZGothra and gets a male child. Suddenly the biological father (Y Gothra) dies and whether the boy of Y gothra should do karma and tharpana and thidhi or just ignore and follow Z gothra?

remedy = dont have gothras changing over.stick with fathers gothra even after marriage can be one solution as women tend to identify with daddy's all the time even after marriage. or continue this change of gothra as tradition or have gothra abolished and call kanya daanam a gift of the most precious kind from one family to another to be cherished and treasured forever untill death do you apart.but withdivorce one must be current with gothra changeover.the boy shud stick to his original fathers gothra if he knows it otherwise shiva gothra or vishnu gothra or brahma gothra.if one is a believer of shakthi as lineage marker then it can be the wives of the rishis as the labeller.this is my opinion only.
 
Anaamadeya Gotra without Rishis. Or in rare cases "Dhana" Gotra. Basically, the Gotra attaches to them where they attach themselves to. I am afraid the discussions are unfortunate for the affected and maybe it is bad on our part too.I am sorry. I do not mean to hurt anybody's sentiments or emotions.Tongues wag or the keyboard's keys get hit.
 
My next doubt is here!
A lady of A gothra marries a boy of Y gothra and gets a male child. After couple of years she marries a boy from ZGothra and gets a male child. Suddenly the biological father (Y Gothra) dies and whether the boy of Y gothra should do karma and tharpana and thidhi or just ignore and follow Z gothra?

We will not find an answer in the Dharma sastras since such social happenings were not envisaged then. Logically speaking if the Y gothra father dies the funeral rites are nowadays done by someone as though he was unmarried. In one such case the wife had not married again, her (divorced) husband died and his karmas were done by his brother's second son. The divorcee lady however took her two sons by the deceased husband (the kids were around 10 years of age at that time) to the place of death by air so that the kids would be able to see the dead body and get convinced that their father had died indeed, and would not harbour any doubts in their minds when they grew up.
 

tbs

0
My next doubt is here!
A lady of A gothra marries a boy of Y gothra and gets a male child. After couple of years she marries a boy from ZGothra and gets a male child. Suddenly the biological father (Y Gothra) dies and whether the boy of Y gothra should do karma and tharpana and thidhi or just ignore and follow Z gothra?

hi sir,
there is NO X , Y, OR Z GOTHRAS NOW A DAYS....ONLY M GOTHRAS ONLY AVAILABLE...........ONLY MONEY GOTHRAS.....M FOR

MONEY.....if money is there any gothra can be adjusted...................


regards
tbs
 
N

nachi naga

Guest
hi sir,
there is NO X , Y, OR Z GOTHRAS NOW A DAYS....ONLY M GOTHRAS ONLY AVAILABLE...........ONLY MONEY GOTHRAS.....M FOR

MONEY.....if money is there any gothra can be adjusted...................


regards
tbs

money was always there and so was gothra which modern medicine translates to genetics dna blood groups etc.but its the male x or y chromosome which decides the sex of the foetus,so gothra is important for future generational breedings,imho.
 

N.R.Ranganathan

Active member
After divorce by legal procedure, which our sastras do not recognise
due to the rituals performed at the time of marriage like ammi methithu,
arundhati parthu, agniyai valam vanthu etc, gothra itself is immaterial.I dont think there is any sastric ritual undoing the marriage, but I will stand
corrected if someone clarifies.
 
N

nachi naga

Guest
After divorce by legal procedure, which our sastras do not recognise
due to the rituals performed at the time of marriage like ammi methithu,
arundhati parthu, agniyai valam vanthu etc, gothra itself is immaterial.I dont think there is any sastric ritual undoing the marriage, but I will stand
corrected if someone clarifies.

i think there is,but is not written or talked about,becoz it was not a practice which our wise elders kept it below the radar, and did not want it to be popular.i think its called vivaha aruthal or something like that.
 

N.R.Ranganathan

Active member
Dear sri Nachi naga,
thanks for the reply, but I am afraid this ritual is on the night of the tenth day
of the husband's demise. I am still checking.
 

kunjuppu

Active member
Dear sri Nachi naga,
thanks for the reply, but I am afraid this ritual is on the night of the tenth day
of the husband's demise. I am still checking.

NRR,

in my experience, this has been the symbolic cutting of the thali by close relatives.

an extreme of this that i observed at brahma theertham in triplicane, the brother (i presume) of the widow, dragged the young lady by the hair, while uttering most vile abuses about her 'sins', and led her to a waiting barber, who cut off all her hair.

my sister who was with me then, freaked out, and went into hysterics. hopefully such acts are a thing of past.

for my mother, cousins' and aunt's widowhood, the removal of the thali, was done very quietly, without much ado, by the women of the house. no fuss. no scenes. what a relief!!
 

N.R.Ranganathan

Active member
Yes sir, These scenes are totally absent now. It definitely had some
significance in those days, but times have changed and along with it
our thinking also. Thank God ( with your permission I am dragging
God into the picture ), such ugly scenes are no longer witnessed.
 
In the Mahabharata, Vichitravirya died without having any children. In order that the Kuru race does not come to an end, his two wives Ambika and Ambalika gave birth a son each, Dhrutarashtra and Pandu, on their union with the Sage Vashist. This was as per the practice of "Niyoga" type of marriage which was prevalent at that time. However, the two sons still were treated as from the same gotra as Vichitravirya, and not of the gotram of Vashista rishi.

If this is taken as a precedent, then all children born to a woman, whomsoever the father may be, should be considered to belong to the gotram of her first husband.
 

renuka

Well-known member
In the Mahabharata, Vichitravirya died without having any children. In order that the Kuru race does not come to an end, his two wives Ambika and Ambalika gave birth a son each, Dhrutarashtra and Pandu, on their union with the Sage Vashist. This was as per the practice of "Niyoga" type of marriage which was prevalent at that time. However, the two sons still were treated as from the same gotra as Vichitravirya, and not of the gotram of Vashista rishi.

If this is taken as a precedent, then all children born to a woman, whomsoever the father may be, should be considered to belong to the gotram of her first husband.


I somewhat disagree here cos the example you cited as in "Niyoga" type of union is done as a last resort when there is no way out to produce a progeny and that too with consent and there is no divorce in the scene.
We see modern day scenario of Niyoga union in case of couple who go in for donor sperm fertilization.
The gotra of the baby follows the gotra of the husband of woman(even though he is not the biological father)
So we can treat Sage Vyasa's Niyoga as a donor sperm.

This is not the same as in divorce and remarriage becos the old marriage is no longer valid legally.

The kids born through the new marriage should follow gotra of new hubby and I personally feel since the DNA of a girl cant change so let her remain in the same gotra she was born in.At the end of the day when our body is merely a garment that will be shed from life to life does Gotra really make a difference?


BTW wasnt it Sage Veda Vyasa who fathered Pandu,Dhrtarasthra and Vidura?
 
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R

Ramacchandran

Guest
When the divorce girl marries with a child, naturally the child or children can be adopted with the bride. Once the adoption takes place naturally the children goes to Gothra of Second Husband.
 

renuka

Well-known member
When the divorce girl marries with a child, naturally the child or children can be adopted with the bride. Once the adoption takes place naturally the children goes to Gothra of Second Husband.


The ex Husband will always have visiting rights for his children even though the ex wife has remarried.
Man dont disown their kids after a divorce..they still have all legal visiting rights and the new husband is like a "guardian dad" and he doesnt go through legal procedure to legally adopt his wifes kids.

So why should Gotra change?
 
The ex Husband will always have visiting rights for his children even though the ex wife has remarried.
Man dont disown their kids after a divorce..they still have all legal visiting rights and the new husband is like a "guardian dad" and he doesnt go through legal procedure to legally adopt his wifes kids.

So why should Gotra change?

IMO. if gothra is changed to that of the new father, the sense of bondage, affection and emotional security would be strengthened between the children and children's new father.

Human's sense of family relationship and values makes true sense only if there exists the sense of "We all are same as a family, linked/bonded to each other, till death keeps us apart".

If such a family decides to not to utter gothra during any prayers, traditional ceremonies, rites etc, than there is no need to think and conclude as what Gothra should they belong to?

Ex Husband off course will always have visiting rights for his children even though the ex wife has remarried. But, IMO, the ex husband should help his children build strong emotional bondage with their new father rather just giving the sense of costodian status of the new father. This sense of custodian status of the new father would by default instill children with the idea of - "The new man of our mother is her's, not ours" / "A father is a father and a custodian is a custodian".

If children are too young, the above would be the right move. If children are grown up adults, than they "know" as what to consider and how to behave.

The above opinions of mine are considering Indian-Hindu family system/values alone, who all wants some tradition to fallow and the Gothra to be associated with.








 

kunjuppu

Active member
dear ravi,

your post #22,

pray does it not implies to trash the entire concept of how we tambrams understand the concept of gothra.

our abhidey is supposed to originate i dont know when, but some immemorial time, when one of our ancestors supposed to have acknowledged lineage to three or four rishis, though under what lineage i dont know, and adopted a gothram.

we have had folks here swearing on their mother's head, that these gothrams are 'unpolluted' over the milleniums.

and now, if we glibly, switch gothrams, i think, there are lots of people here who might get upset and object. no?

are we not also playing around with the concept of gothram, when a woman divorces. the concept of gothram is patrilineal and the woman has no choice but to switch gothram from dad to hubby; so if hubby changes, she can switch gothrams, but her children should, they not, keep the gothram of the biological father?

personally, i dont believe or practise gothrams. in my own marriage and beyond me to my progeny.
 
dear ravi,

your post #22,

pray does it not implies to trash the entire concept of how we tambrams understand the concept of gothra.

our abhidey is supposed to originate i dont know when, but some immemorial time, when one of our ancestors supposed to have acknowledged lineage to three or four rishis, though under what lineage i dont know, and adopted a gothram.

we have had folks here swearing on their mother's head, that these gothrams are 'unpolluted' over the milleniums.

and now, if we glibly, switch gothrams, i think, there are lots of people here who might get upset and object. no?

are we not also playing around with the concept of gothram, when a woman divorces. the concept of gothram is patrilineal and the woman has no choice but to switch gothram from dad to hubby; so if hubby changes, she can switch gothrams, but her children should, they not, keep the gothram of the biological father?

personally, i dont believe or practise gothrams. in my own marriage and beyond me to my progeny.

Shri Kunjuppu,

As you may know, I am not particular about "Gothram". If you remember well, long ago I came up with my post asking for saga-gothram marriage in this realistic world for eligible singles to get married, before it’s too late.

“Gothram” now a days is just one of the symbols of identification during ceremonies/archanai in temples, other than, Nakshtram, Rasi and Name.

Today, non vedici brahmins are following some simple tratidion as possible, atleast to solmenize the occasion. As well, while doing archanai in temples.

In such day to day prayers and important rituals, we got to utter our gothram, representing our fimily, along with our family members..



What can be achieved by retaining the Gothram of their Biological father?


IMO, the love and care between children and ex father, if truly exists, can never be hindered by such religious doctrine.


When a mother opts a new husband for her and changes her gothram to that of her new husband, why the children should be excluded and made to stick to the gothram of their biological father?


I believe, if Gothram of the children is changed to that of their new father than the father, mother and the children all will have the same Gothram as one family and would help children to have the sense of oneness. The sense of oneness is what I strongly believe as the most essential factor of upholding family values, sentiments and emotions among all the family members.


Considering the above points, was my post #22 with the same reasoning. As I have concluded in my post #22, all my opinions, I feel, would be correct, if children are too young. If children are grown up adults, they know and have their determinations to what to accept and how to behave.



 

kunjuppu

Active member
dear ravi,

once again, let me explain. i was not at all talking about you. i respect what you believe, as i respect everyone each their own and they have good reasons.

my note was more rhetorical, in the context of the tambram community, and our insistence generally, re the faith in unbroken lineage.

it is quite possible that most of us have broken lineages, and judging from the DNA mixed blood of other races, but we can believe what we want re gothram, because it 'faith based' and need not be supported by scientific proof or disproof.

i just want to make this clear first. so no hard feelings. english is such a strange language. easy to be misunderstood.

i agree with your logic of single family unit, single gothram.

taking it a step further, if the said child whose gothram was changed at mommy's second marriage, wishes to believe in the purity of gothram, lineage and what not, would he be allowed to switch to the original gothram of his biological daddy?
 
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