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Divorced girl to which Gothra she belong

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renuka

Gold Member
Gold Member
When the divorce girl marries with a child, naturally the child or children can be adopted with the bride. Once the adoption takes place naturally the children goes to Gothra of Second Husband.


The ex Husband will always have visiting rights for his children even though the ex wife has remarried.
Man dont disown their kids after a divorce..they still have all legal visiting rights and the new husband is like a "guardian dad" and he doesnt go through legal procedure to legally adopt his wifes kids.

So why should Gotra change?
 

C RAVI

Well-known member
The ex Husband will always have visiting rights for his children even though the ex wife has remarried.
Man dont disown their kids after a divorce..they still have all legal visiting rights and the new husband is like a "guardian dad" and he doesnt go through legal procedure to legally adopt his wifes kids.

So why should Gotra change?

IMO. if gothra is changed to that of the new father, the sense of bondage, affection and emotional security would be strengthened between the children and children's new father.

Human's sense of family relationship and values makes true sense only if there exists the sense of "We all are same as a family, linked/bonded to each other, till death keeps us apart".

If such a family decides to not to utter gothra during any prayers, traditional ceremonies, rites etc, than there is no need to think and conclude as what Gothra should they belong to?

Ex Husband off course will always have visiting rights for his children even though the ex wife has remarried. But, IMO, the ex husband should help his children build strong emotional bondage with their new father rather just giving the sense of costodian status of the new father. This sense of custodian status of the new father would by default instill children with the idea of - "The new man of our mother is her's, not ours" / "A father is a father and a custodian is a custodian".

If children are too young, the above would be the right move. If children are grown up adults, than they "know" as what to consider and how to behave.

The above opinions of mine are considering Indian-Hindu family system/values alone, who all wants some tradition to fallow and the Gothra to be associated with.








 

kunjuppu

Well-known member
dear ravi,

your post #22,

pray does it not implies to trash the entire concept of how we tambrams understand the concept of gothra.

our abhidey is supposed to originate i dont know when, but some immemorial time, when one of our ancestors supposed to have acknowledged lineage to three or four rishis, though under what lineage i dont know, and adopted a gothram.

we have had folks here swearing on their mother's head, that these gothrams are 'unpolluted' over the milleniums.

and now, if we glibly, switch gothrams, i think, there are lots of people here who might get upset and object. no?

are we not also playing around with the concept of gothram, when a woman divorces. the concept of gothram is patrilineal and the woman has no choice but to switch gothram from dad to hubby; so if hubby changes, she can switch gothrams, but her children should, they not, keep the gothram of the biological father?

personally, i dont believe or practise gothrams. in my own marriage and beyond me to my progeny.
 

C RAVI

Well-known member
dear ravi,

your post #22,

pray does it not implies to trash the entire concept of how we tambrams understand the concept of gothra.

our abhidey is supposed to originate i dont know when, but some immemorial time, when one of our ancestors supposed to have acknowledged lineage to three or four rishis, though under what lineage i dont know, and adopted a gothram.

we have had folks here swearing on their mother's head, that these gothrams are 'unpolluted' over the milleniums.

and now, if we glibly, switch gothrams, i think, there are lots of people here who might get upset and object. no?

are we not also playing around with the concept of gothram, when a woman divorces. the concept of gothram is patrilineal and the woman has no choice but to switch gothram from dad to hubby; so if hubby changes, she can switch gothrams, but her children should, they not, keep the gothram of the biological father?

personally, i dont believe or practise gothrams. in my own marriage and beyond me to my progeny.

Shri Kunjuppu,

As you may know, I am not particular about "Gothram". If you remember well, long ago I came up with my post asking for saga-gothram marriage in this realistic world for eligible singles to get married, before it’s too late.

“Gothram” now a days is just one of the symbols of identification during ceremonies/archanai in temples, other than, Nakshtram, Rasi and Name.

Today, non vedici brahmins are following some simple tratidion as possible, atleast to solmenize the occasion. As well, while doing archanai in temples.

In such day to day prayers and important rituals, we got to utter our gothram, representing our fimily, along with our family members..



What can be achieved by retaining the Gothram of their Biological father?


IMO, the love and care between children and ex father, if truly exists, can never be hindered by such religious doctrine.


When a mother opts a new husband for her and changes her gothram to that of her new husband, why the children should be excluded and made to stick to the gothram of their biological father?


I believe, if Gothram of the children is changed to that of their new father than the father, mother and the children all will have the same Gothram as one family and would help children to have the sense of oneness. The sense of oneness is what I strongly believe as the most essential factor of upholding family values, sentiments and emotions among all the family members.


Considering the above points, was my post #22 with the same reasoning. As I have concluded in my post #22, all my opinions, I feel, would be correct, if children are too young. If children are grown up adults, they know and have their determinations to what to accept and how to behave.



 

kunjuppu

Well-known member
dear ravi,

once again, let me explain. i was not at all talking about you. i respect what you believe, as i respect everyone each their own and they have good reasons.

my note was more rhetorical, in the context of the tambram community, and our insistence generally, re the faith in unbroken lineage.

it is quite possible that most of us have broken lineages, and judging from the DNA mixed blood of other races, but we can believe what we want re gothram, because it 'faith based' and need not be supported by scientific proof or disproof.

i just want to make this clear first. so no hard feelings. english is such a strange language. easy to be misunderstood.

i agree with your logic of single family unit, single gothram.

taking it a step further, if the said child whose gothram was changed at mommy's second marriage, wishes to believe in the purity of gothram, lineage and what not, would he be allowed to switch to the original gothram of his biological daddy?
 

renuka

Gold Member
Gold Member
IMO. if gothra is changed to that of the new father, the sense of bondage, affection and emotional security would be strengthened between the children and children's new father.

Human's sense of family relationship and values makes true sense only if there exists the sense of "We all are same as a family, linked/bonded to each other, till death keeps us apart".

If such a family decides to not to utter gothra during any prayers, traditional ceremonies, rites etc, than there is no need to think and conclude as what Gothra should they belong to?

Ex Husband off course will always have visiting rights for his children even though the ex wife has remarried. But, IMO, the ex husband should help his children build strong emotional bondage with their new father rather just giving the sense of costodian status of the new father. This sense of custodian status of the new father would by default instill children with the idea of - "The new man of our mother is her's, not ours" / "A father is a father and a custodian is a custodian".

If children are too young, the above would be the right move. If children are grown up adults, than they "know" as what to consider and how to behave.

The above opinions of mine are considering Indian-Hindu family system/values alone, who all wants some tradition to fallow and the Gothra to be associated with.










Dear Ravi,

Do we really need to apply all rules of Gothra change when first and foremost Divorce is not in Sanathana Dharma.
So when people these days have chosen the Civil Law over Sanathana Dharma why do we need to fit in gothra change.
We should either stick to Sanathana Dharma or Civil Law and not amalgamate it cos the DNA of the children dont change with remarriage of a divorced mum.
 

sangom

Well-known member
dear ravi,

once again, let me explain. i was not at all talking about you. i respect what you believe, as i respect everyone each their own and they have good reasons.

my note was more rhetorical, in the context of the tambram community, and our insistence generally, re the faith in unbroken lineage.

it is quite possible that most of us have broken lineages, and judging from the DNA mixed blood of other races, but we can believe what we want re gothram, because it 'faith based' and need not be supported by scientific proof or disproof.

i just want to make this clear first. so no hard feelings. english is such a strange language. easy to be misunderstood.

i agree with your logic of single family unit, single gothram.

taking it a step further, if the said child whose gothram was changed at mommy's second marriage, wishes to believe in the purity of gothram, lineage and what not, would he be allowed to switch to the original gothram of his biological daddy?

K,

There were lengthy and perhaps the usual heated exchanges over the Sraaddha mantras which ask Agni (Swadhaa) to take the offering of Havis to one's biological father even if the purported person was not. Viewed in this angle, I think our sages valued the DNA as more important than the legal or public image. What do you think?
 

C RAVI

Well-known member
Dear Ravi,

Do we really need to apply all rules of Gothra change when first and foremost Divorce is not in Sanathana Dharma.
So when people these days have chosen the Civil Law over Sanathana Dharma why do we need to fit in gothra change.
We should either stick to Sanathana Dharma or Civil Law and not amalgamate it cos the DNA of the children dont change with remarriage of a divorced mum.

Dear Renuka,

My post was only to answer if the question is to which gothra the children should belong to? To that of Biological Father or New/adopted father. Otherwise I would have not mentioned anything about the Gothra of such children, if such re married mothers and their husbands are not bothered.
 

C RAVI

Well-known member
dear ravi,

taking it a step further, if the said child whose gothram was changed at mommy's second marriage, wishes to believe in the purity of gothram, lineage and what not, would he be allowed to switch to the original gothram of his biological daddy?

Shri Kunjuppu,

First of all let me clarify you that, I didn't mistake your post at all. My notes as preamble to my post #24 was just to add what I feel personally about "Gothram", asociated in vedic terms.


AFA I know, there is no vedic procedure to switch over from one Gothram to another. Once the body is formed biologically with the DNA of Father and Mother and when Gotham is associated to the so called head of the family/male/husband, the Gothram would than ever be the one and the only one acquired from biological father. The formation of Human life out of biological father/mother is the visible truth and can never be altered.

So, it all depends on what such family decides for themselves, considering too younger kids. As I have stated in my posts, if the children are grown up adults, they would determine for themselves as what they need, especially in this present era. It all depends on the joint sentiments of the family or the sentiments of the each member of the family.

They may either choose to respect the vedic values and performing vedic prayers/rituals and continue to utter Gothram of their Biologocal father. Or they may give more priority to their mother's & new father's sentiment and utter Gothram of the new father/custodian.

Human feelings and emotions are often fragile. If children hate their ex father (knowing or not knowing the truth), they may adopt New Father's gothram, irrespective of vedic importance while performing rituals. And, if they Love their ex father (knowing or not knowing the truth), they may stick to the biological father's Gothram while performing vedic rituals.

In future if not these days, the uttering of Gothram would be rare while performing rarest vedic rituals and just as a matter of vedic formalities. During marriage proposals based on Gothram (if at all still followed), these children may change their mind to switch from their ex father's Gothram to that of their custodian's and vice versa, depending on their liking of a boy/girl :rockon:

IMO, the above are the realities of the practicle life, dosen't matter if we give importance to Gothram system of the vedic rules or not.





 
Last edited:

Nara

Well-known member
......taking it a step further, if the said child whose gothram was changed at mommy's second marriage, wishes to believe in the purity of gothram, lineage and what not, would he be allowed to switch to the original gothram of his biological daddy?
K, all this confusion is because of the nonsensical notion of gothram and lineage tracing back to the Vedic times. A child is deserving of our love because she/he is a child, no more.

K, I am sure, just as sure as my own existence, you know it. I know you won't say it in the stark terms that I do because you subscribe to the tactic of stooping to conquer.

I am in no mood to stoop.

We have already conquered K, no need to stoop. The pockets of reactionary resistance is confined to small groups, who better get on with the program or get left behind.

Cheers!
 

N.R.Ranganathan

Well-known member
There is a story in one of the upanishads about the gothram of a disciple
who came to a rishi for learning the atma vidya.

The rishi asked him - what is your name , your father's name and gothram ?
The young boy did not know since he had not seen his father at all and was
brought up by his mother. So he came back to the house and asked his mother
to tell him the name of his father and the gothram.

She said ; look son ! I was working as maid-servant in the houses of many
people and I really do not know to whom you were born. So please tell
the rishi the fact.

The boy returned to the rishi and told him the truth and added that his mother's
name is Jabali. The rishi named him Satyakama jabali and adopted him
and taught him the vedas. All because he spoke the truth - sathyam. The
boy later became a great rishi himself.
 

prasad1

Gold Member
Gold Member
Dear all,

Can anyone shed some light here..How does ones Gotra change after marriage..is it like how westerners adopt their husbands name after marriage..for example Hillary Clinton takes on name of Clinton after marriage to Bill Clinton or is this change of one's Gotra more complex than that?

Basically..can anyone really change in any aspect?
Our genes and DNA dont..so how does this Gotra change come about?

And what about those who have no Gotra..what about them?Me for example..I dont even know what my Gotra is dont even know if I have one? and neither does my husband know his Gotra(if he has one) so how do these rules apply for a person like me?

Would appreciate some feedback please..

Great post.
I have another post on the subject of Gothram.
In short I believe gothram, kulam, elc have served their purpose and now a burden for us.
In north India some families goes to their family pandith and he ascribes them a gothra. In ISKON every new convert gets a gothra assigned.
Gothra was given importance due to Panini classifying it, there is no vadic legitimacy.

In your case if you really want to find out you can go to family members of your husband and can figure it out. You might also pick one that suits your convenience.

There were originally 7 system of schools, propagated by 7 rishis of Septarisi. Now in India at least 49 Gothras are claimed in upper class and thousands more in other classes. In addition jatis, and kulum is wrongly quoted as gothram.
In Andhra temples if you do not know the pujari will assign you Siva, visnu, or Naga gothram.
 

renuka

Gold Member
Gold Member
Great post.
I have another post on the subject of Gothram.
In short I believe gothram, kulam, elc have served their purpose and now a burden for us.
In north India some families goes to their family pandith and he ascribes them a gothra. In ISKON every new convert gets a gothra assigned.
Gothra was given importance due to Panini classifying it, there is no vadic legitimacy.

In your case if you really want to find out you can go to family members of your husband and can figure it out. You might also pick one that suits your convenience.

There were originally 7 system of schools, propagated by 7 rishis of Septarisi. Now in India at least 49 Gothras are claimed in upper class and thousands more in other classes. In addition jatis, and kulum is wrongly quoted as gothram.
In Andhra temples if you do not know the pujari will assign you Siva, visnu, or Naga gothram.

No sir, It's Ok..I dont want to find out too cos even a Gotra is bodily indentification..so why add excess baggage when we eventually need to shed it.
For this birth I am Renuka..God knows what I was before in another birth and what will I be in my next.
For that I need to download all the stored data in the Chitta portion of the Antahkarana into my pen drive and read it..too tedious.
 

prasad1

Gold Member
Gold Member
No sir, It's Ok..I dont want to find out too cos even a Gotra is bodily indentification..so why add excess baggage when we eventually need to shed it.
For this birth I am Renuka..God knows what I was before in another birth and what will I be in my next.
For that I need to download all the stored data in the Chitta portion of the Antahkarana into my pen drive and read it..too tedious.

With your knowledge you surely must be at the end of your punerjanmas. You will attain it in this life or next. Wish you success in achieving your desire.
 

sarang

Well-known member
Nothing is a burden. They, who believe in gotras may continue their faith. For every belief there will be objections from some quarter.

It is not wise to link modern science with every practice and belief. If ghotra is perceived as lineage and kinship, there is no need to link it with dna or genetics. Like linking dasavatara to darwin's theory. Our sanatana dharma and science are two different streams; there is no need to make one dry to feed the other.
 

ganukanchi

New member
Dear nacchinarkiniyan do you expect a pedal fallen from a flower gets back to same flower in nature. try to understand that all these are coined by our forefathers to ensure a good societal setup. do not try to damage it simply because you do not like it.
 

kunjuppu

Well-known member
Dear nacchinarkiniyan do you expect a pedal fallen from a flower gets back to same flower in nature. try to understand that all these are coined by our forefathers to ensure a good societal setup. do not try to damage it simply because you do not like it.

hi ganu,

dont you think we should use common sense on the basis of today's knowledge, to make decisions pertaining to our lives?

i do not quite understand your reference to a fallen petal trying to fit itself back to the flower. reminded me of nagesh's quote in a movie, about how one can get toothpaste out of the tube, but cannot put it back in. cute but irrelevant. i think.

our elders practised the defigurement of widows. young women, many not even consummated, on the death of the husband, had their
heads shaved, given white garments, shunned to a corner of the house, considered bad omen, and forced to spend their lives
in shame, isolation and at the mercy of relatives. was there a lot of wisdom in this?

my point, is that if you believe in shunning saha gothram marriage, it is upto you. but if you use your common sense, when you find,
there is no blood relationship identified, what is wrong in a marriage contracted between two people of the same gothram?

this opposed to marrying a mama or athai son or daughter, with 50% common genes?

i think, the smart thing, is to weigh every issue, with the knowledge of today, and not look up to traditions. because in many instances
traditions, have not only been abusive, to the times when they were introduced, but absolutely and morally, for all times.

this is where we separate, i think, smart thinking, from mooda nambikkai. it has nothing to do with 'likes' it has everything to do
what is right, and what makes sense.

upto you sir!!
 

prasad1

Gold Member
Gold Member
Post#37
I support K's case fully, Please read the thread 'Gothram as alumni' thread for further reading.
Coming back to original post she can cliam the gothram of her ex husband or revert back to her father's gothram. In our society you still need Gothram.
 

ganukanchi

New member
Dear kunjuppu,
my common sense has only made me to arrive at this conclusion that what our forefathers has followed is correct.
because, if X head of a family, which follows our tradition and has no male but only females in their fold, on his death then that family had to look up to X's blood brother or blood brother's family to perform the last rites of X.
this is because X's blood brother or his son/sons forms the same lineage.
if X did not have blood brother then any of his `gothra pangali' mr.Y ie. having the same gothra to which X belongs can perform the last rites.
thus that person automatically becomes attains the status of a brother of the female children left behind by X.
if X's female child got married to mr.Y then how could a wife call her husband as brother, a relationship i still believe that even now bar them from becoming husband and wife because such acts only help us build social network.
 

ganukanchi

New member
Dear prasad1
i do support your view that our society still need gothram and that a divorced woman could claim the gothram of her ex-husband.
at any cost she cannot revert back to her father's gothram because when marriages are solemnized, as per our tradition, the girls father says he hands over his daughter born in his gothram to the bridegroom's family and the bridgroom's father accepts her into his family by declaring that from that moment she belongs to his gothram.
 
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