Debates and Arguments

[a-TB]

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I read somewhere (perhaps even here) that debates are to figure out WHAT is right and arguments are to show WHO is right.

In arguments ego has the most role. Content does not matter. It is to tell others you won who also do not care because they are absorbed in their egoic thinking LOL

In debates ego is subordinated to finding out what is right and opponents have the same goal which is to know what is right.

In forums like this people can get carried away and start saying things that go against the forum guidelines (not just the rules).

If a thread degenerates due to arguments, then sometimes the thread is altogether gotten rid of which is the right thing to do.

In arguments with ego flaring there are attacks at a personal level. However it is best if the attacks are on the content.

Knowing this distinction is key to avoid degeneration of threads.

I have challenged, some may say attacked the content. Of late, I have not attacked anyone because it is silly to attack someone I do not know. All we know are what a person claims. Most use a user name which is not their real name anyway.

But attacking or challenging statements made is fair game. If some statements have hatred against any group, exposing that content for what it is , again is not an attack but a service.

Sometimes a person is out of words and cannot argue, much less debate. Then they resort to name calling sometimes using nasty words and profanity. That is a clear defeat and such people are not worth the time to argue with. Of course if such people again write content that is illogical and possibly hurtful they can be challenged.

Best is to challenge content and stay in that goal as focus and not attack anyone personally, even while trying to understand the motivation of a piece of content.

What say you....

 

[naithru]

Mr. a-TB says...In arguments ego has the most role. Content does not matter. It is to tell others you won who also do not care because they are absorbed in their egoic thinking LOL
ha ha ha , ... I remember this
All arguments have two sides, and some have no ends

 

[Jaykay767]

Hilarious to see people who attack others personally or put Jalra to those who attack others personally want to claim moral high ground.

After reading entire ramayanam, if one asks sitayiku Raman Chittappa ?, it only shows the the questioners poor intellectual capability - unfortunate but true. Similar to asking me basic questions after the 100s of posts I posted on "my view" of the "history" of our culture over the years. I can understand new members will not have read them, but for someone in the forum for a long time, what can one say.

My advise to people - hatred always always destroys those who harbour them. Be careful what you sow in life. Learn to give respect and take respect first. Love people and not hate them.

This is why this govt collapsed under its own disastrous self goals. No one forced them to make such mistakes.

 

[Jaykay767]

Just because someone refuses to answer should not be construed as not having an answer, it is a foolish assumption.

No offence to anyone. Let's take 2 examples.

1. Lord Ayyappan culture - Lord Ayyappan is w tribal God and the tantris in Sabarimala temple are not Brahmins. Now some Tamil Brahmins worship Ayyappan.

So is the culture and traditions surrounding Ayyappan are Tamil Brahmin culture or Tamil Non Brahmin culture Or just Tamil culture ?

2. Bharatanatyam - This is largely practiced only by Tamil Brahmins now. But in history it was only practiced by devadasis till this system was abolished post independence. Brahmin or upper caste girls never danced in public in the past. We TBs adopted this only after independence. Should we then classify this under Tamil culture ??

3. Sage Valimiki writes one of the most important epic Ramayanam, and he is a non Brahmin as per his own accounts.

 

[Jaykay767]

By the way, all these points were discussed and debated already in my earlier threads on history at length.

 

[Jaykay767]

Only fools will assume "not answering" to "out of words or cannot argue". Lol.

The stupidly is astounding after "answers and supporting evidences" were already given and discussed so many times in 100s of posts.

Only those who have "absolute zero content" will spend their entire time questioning others. Not a single thread of worthwhile contribution from them !!

Finally, have the common sense to pick an enemy whom you can win against, who is weak, cannot debate well. it is foolish to pick a fight with medavis !!

 

[renuka]

I read somewhere (perhaps even here) that debates are to figure out WHAT is right and arguments are to show WHO is right.

In arguments ego has the most role. Content does not matter. It is to tell others you won who also do not care because they are absorbed in their egoic thinking LOL

In debates ego is subordinated to finding out what is right and opponents have the same goal which is to know what is right.

In forums like this people can get carried away and start saying things that go against the forum guidelines (not just the rules).

If a thread degenerates due to arguments, then sometimes the thread is altogether gotten rid of which is the right thing to do.

In arguments with ego flaring there are attacks at a personal level. However it is best if the attacks are on the content.

Knowing this distinction is key to avoid degeneration of threads.

I have challenged, some may say attacked the content. Of late, I have not attacked anyone because it is silly to attack someone I do not know. All we know are what a person claims. Most use a user name which is not their real name anyway.

But attacking or challenging statements made is fair game. If some statements have hatred against any group, exposing that content for what it is , again is not an attack but a service.

Sometimes a person is out of words and cannot argue, much less debate. Then they resort to name calling sometimes using nasty words and profanity. That is a clear defeat and such people are not worth the time to argue with. Of course if such people again write content that is illogical and possibly hurtful they can be challenged.

Best is to challenge content and stay in that goal as focus and not attack anyone personally, even while trying to understand the motivation of a piece of content.

What say you....

I get a feeling you are also a moderator.

 

[prasad1]

A moderator should not have biased views.
Some people assume that they are the administrator. They want people to accept their direction. If people share this "administrators" views they are not moderated.
Case in point Mr. Narayanswamy iyer was so obnoxious, but just because he shared some opinions with one other member, he was never cautioned, on the other hand, he was supported and praised.
I like Praveen as Moderator and administrator.
He never participated in any threads and does not express personal bias.

 

[renuka]

Just to add.
Abuse should not be tolerated by considering it an opinion.
An arguement need not to be abusive.
A debate need not be abusive.
Abuse is abuse..it WILL NOT be tolerated or sugar coated to be shoved down anothers throat as " its an opinion".

Get real..everyone has an Ego.
Its not about being right always but criminally abusive behavior should not be tolerated.

 

[tbs]

hi

opinions are different...every coin has two sides....sometimes we have to accept two sides....but

finally most arguements/opinons end up with CLOSE THREAD..LOL

 

[prasad1]

I think the content of the original post is very pertinent.
I only object to the sermon. We must realize that the person being talked down is also included the person talking down.

We all have opinions, none is any better than the other.
We present some personal experiences, and some time we post research positions expressed by others (with credit given to the source).
I do have an EGO, but I know that.

 

[a-TB]

Just because someone refuses to answer should not be construed as not having an answer, it is a foolish assumption.

No offence to anyone. Let's take 2 examples.

1. Lord Ayyappan culture - Lord Ayyappan is w tribal God and the tantris in Sabarimala temple are not Brahmins. Now some Tamil Brahmins worship Ayyappan.

So is the culture and traditions surrounding Ayyappan are Tamil Brahmin culture or Tamil Non Brahmin culture Or just Tamil culture ?

2. Bharatanatyam - This is largely practiced only by Tamil Brahmins now. But in history it was only practiced by devadasis till this system was abolished post independence. Brahmin or upper caste girls never danced in public in the past. We TBs adopted this only after independence. Should we then classify this under Tamil culture ??

3. Sage Valimiki writes one of the most important epic Ramayanam, and he is a non Brahmin as per his own accounts.

Let us look at the logic behind the two examples.

This thread is about arguments and debates. So it will be better to start a different thread.

However since an example is quoted let me say in debating this why the reasoning is wrong.

Human beings and a donkey (or any animal) have many features in common. This includes basic functions like eating, excreting, breathing, blood circulation, heart, feelings, ability to move etc etc. That cannot be the basis of the comparison to say they both are similar. The fact that both are living beings means some of these functions are the same.

Similarly many cultures in India come under Hindu culture. So being Hindus there is commonality.

To more accurately compare you have to look at the distinctions. Then one can say how small the distinctions are to say two cultures are more or less the same. For example, outside India there is hardly any difference between Iyer culture and Iyangar culture. They are both TBs and differences are minor.

Let us not talk about Valmiki not being a Brahmin or that Rama-Sita are not Brahmins etc. That is a different topic.

Let us get back to the original topic of post 1

 

[a-TB]

I get a feeling you are also a moderator.

We all are moderators of some sort since we care about the health of the forum. I used to be in debating teams in college and was merely sharing my experience to focus on the content, If there is a rude comment, then there are ways to call that out without name calling.

If there is a hate message of some sort calling that out is fine too without implying that the person is necessarily bad

 

[a-TB]

A moderator should not have biased views.
Some people assume that they are the administrator. They want people to accept their direction. If people share this "administrators" views they are not moderated.
Case in point Mr. Narayanswamy iyer was so obnoxious, but just because he shared some opinions with one other member, he was never cautioned, on the other hand, he was supported and praised.
I like Praveen as Moderator and administrator.
He never participated in any threads and does not express personal bias.

I prefer not to discuss about anyone but since a name is raised I can share my views

Mr Iyer was polite and friendly when he first joined the forum. Then he said some things that did not go well with some people based on being provoked. He was banned I think for a while.

He is an older person close to 90 and is a scholar in many subjects. I think when I mentioned the idea of being focused on content and not attack a person, he readily agreed.

The forum can benefit with his vast knowledge and wit. We all need to hit a reset in this regard.

If there was unprovoked aggression from anyone that should be taken up with the admin by using the Report function rather than discussing the person which is rude

 

[a-TB]

Just to add.
Abuse should not be tolerated by considering it an opinion.
An arguement need not to be abusive.
A debate need not be abusive.
Abuse is abuse..it WILL NOT be tolerated or sugar coated to be shoved down anothers throat as " its an opinion".

Get real..everyone has an Ego.
Its not about being right always but criminally abusive behavior should not be tolerated.

Agreed. Abuse need not be sugar coated as opinion but one has to look at the history and total context.

In any case best way to deal with abuse is to report to moderator as Mr Praveen says all the time. Or try to work this out via private messages.

It usually takes two to tango

 

[renuka]

Agreed. Abuse need not be sugar coated as opinion but one has to look at the history and total context.

In any case best way to deal with abuse is to report to moderator as Mr Praveen says all the time. Or try to work this out via private messages.

It usually takes two to tango

Yes...it takes two to tango but I do not need you to supply the music.

Have you ever played the musical piece Tarantula?
Its so intoxicatingly haunting ..a a story as how the bite of a Tarantula makes one go into trance like frenzy and jump up into the air and dance before one collapses and succumbs.

So do not add music to my bite..I know how to paralyze my victim.

 

[renuka]

We all are moderators of some sort since we care about the health of the forum. I used to be in debating teams in college and was merely sharing my experience to focus on the content, If there is a rude comment, then there are ways to call that out without name calling.

If there is a hate message of some sort calling that out is fine too without implying that the person is necessarily bad

No..
We are not moderators.
You are.

And if one cant be a just one..quit the post.

Old age or young age isnt an excuse for lack of respect and indecent accusations.

It might be tolerated in some cultures but certainly not in any civilized culture.

 

[a-TB]

Yes...it takes two to tango but I do not need you to supply the music.

Have you ever played the musical piece Tarantula?
Its so intoxicatingly haunting ..a a story as how the bite of a Tarantula makes one go into trance like frenzy and jump up into the air and dance before one collapses and succumbs.

So do not add music to my bite..I know how to paralyze my victim.

This forum is not about just one person. All I said in Post 1 is that let us debate on merits of an argument. If there is a serious issue with anyone then we are told to use the Report function.

I am not supplying music or talk about your capacity to strike LOL

The forum is better if we go back to debating points. I hope you can agree on that

 

[renuka]

This forum is not about just one person. All I said in Post 1 is that let us debate on merits of an argument. If there is a serious issue with anyone then we are told to use the Report function.

I am not supplying music or talk about your capacity to strike LOL

The forum is better if we go back to debating points. I hope you can agree on that

What points?
To play reverse psychology to make one accept abuses as part of an opinion?
Also if you are a moderator you need to admit it.
You seem to be playing too hard to prove some convulated points here after being impartial.

 

[a-TB]

What points?
To play reverse psychology to make one accept abuses as part of an opinion?
Also if you are a moderator you need to admit it.
You seem to be playing too hard to prove some convulated points here after being impartial.

I never said you to accept any abuses. I am member like you. You are well known member and I am an active member. I am not trying hard to prove anything. The topic of the discussion is about how to debate and argue in this thread. You can share your views on how to argue.

 

[naithru]

mr.jaykay767,
only brahmins in bharata natyam??
In Tamil Nadu, in the early part of the twentieth century, Sadir as Bharatanatyam was know then, was the exclusive preserve of Devadasis (“slaves of God” in Sanskrit) coming from Isai Vellaalar community. Those days Isai Vellaalar women became temple dancers patronized by kings and landlords, and their men became nattuvanars, musicians, and nadaswaram vidwans. In Tamil, Isai means music and Vellaalar, even though means farmers, has come to mean the landed gentry.
East India Company, Abolition of Devadasi System, and the Resuscitation of Classical Dance
In the nascent years of Britain's East India Company (19th century), brahmins joined the Company as lowly clerks, derisively called “gumasta.” As the Company grew in influence and started holding political power over the next several decades, the lowly brahmin clerks became the Indian upper crust, forming a layer between the sahebs and the serfs.
With most of Southern India coming under the Madras presidency by the middle of 19th century, the patronage system for Devadasis degenerated. Deva-dasis were seen as concubines, mistresses, even prostitutes. And with the Victorian morals the British tried to impose on India, the Devadasi system came under censure.

In the 1940s, among those prominent wanting the Devadasi system abolished was one Dr. Muthulakshmi Reddy, herself of Devadasi heritage. With the Devadasi system made illegal in mid 1940s, the stigma attached to Devadasis received a legal reinforcement. The Tamil society was trying to throw the baby of classical dance preserved by Devadasis along with the dirty bathwater of the Devadasi system.

In this environment, a few individuals in Madras, almost all of them brahmins, rescued the classical dance of Devadasis and gave it social respectability. One E. Krishna Iyer, a lawyer interested in performing arts, in the 1940s renamed it Bharatanatyam since the dance form drew its inspirations partly from Bharata's Natya Shastra (2nd century AD).

So, Sadir was renamed Bharatanatyam. The emphasis in Sadir on shrngara rasam (erotic mood) between the dancer and her secular hero (usually a rich patron) was transmuted into Bhakti (devotion) towards Ishta Devatas (personal deities), in which India had already an extensive repertoire of lyrics in all languages.

Brahmins did not cause this transformation, but became its beneficiaries on account of the flow of history. What caused the change was the already weakened central authority of the Mughals, the fractured Indian polity, and the chronic distrust among India's nawabs and maharajas. Besides, with their mercantile tradition, the British had a long-term political strategy backed by cannons and guns.

The Bhakti Movement, briefly
The Bhakti Movement started in Southern India, in the Tamil country as early as the fourth century AD, and blossomed further between 6th and 12th centuries, well into our times. The Bhakti movement itself, with its emphasis on non-Sanskrit languages, was a rebellion against the brahminical orthodoxy.

This “de-eroticization” of Sadir in the early days of Bharatanatyam was not only inevitable, but also necessary, given the stigma attached to Devadasis compounded by the Victorian morals of the European colonial rulers.

By replacing the secular patron with personal deities, and by giving the erotic themes a new interpretation as Nayaka-Nayikaa bhavam, the dance form was resuscitated.

The Nayaka-Nayikaa bhavam was not Bharatanatyam's original idea. Saiva and Vaishnava Tamil hymns written between 6th and 9th centuries and later are replete with lyrics in which poets, most of them men, personified themselves as women passionately in love with their deity — Siva, Vishnu, or Murugan.

Isai Vellaalar women's dilemma
In the 1950s and 1960s young women of Devadasi heritage wanting to learn dancing were under tremendous disadvantage. Marriages were arranged (and are still being arranged) within caste lines not only among brahmins, but also among all sub-sects of Vellaalars, Nadars, Chettiars and everybody else, even Muslims and Christians.

And for girls, the stigma of Devadasi heritage was perhaps the harshest. If a girl went on stage, her traditional marriage to a young educated man among Isai Vellaalars was in jeopardy.

On stage, her abhinaya, in contrast to that of a brahmin dancer, was interpreted by the audience using different yardsticks, not always complimentary.

In the meanwhile, the Isai Vellaalars, as all others in Tamil Nadu, were transforming themselves into the anglicized “middle class.”
you forget m/s Valli meenakshi, etc great dancers. Please don't include only Brahmins in bharata natyam. moreover with dravidian culture catching up , the bhakti movement was not followed, only brahmins took it earnestly

 

[renuka]

I never said you to accept any abuses. I am member like you. You are well known member and I am an active member. I am not trying hard to prove anything. The topic of the discussion is about how to debate and argue in this thread. You can share your views on how to argue.

I dont set rules on how to argue.
But just no name calling.
Accusations.
Leaking info previously shared on personal messages in better times and making it public in forum.

Leaking " gossip" etc.

All these should not be there.
Its a matter of principles thats all.

Otherwise anyone can argue or debate however they want..to bark or bite or piss on a hydrant..i have no issues.

 

[naithru]

Under this highly charged social dynamics triggered by several inter-locking factors, Isai Vellaalars, particularly, Isai Vellaalar women, pretty much abandoned their traditional dance.

It is not that brahmins embraced Bharatanatyam en masse. In those days, many brahmins had stigma for girls learning Bharatanatyam and going on stage because of association with Devadasis. Many brahmin, and most Chettiar, Mudaliar, Pillai, Reddiar, and Nadar families in Tamil Nadu were reluctant to train their daughters in Bharatanatyam. Only in the 1950s and later, Bharatanatyam acquired prestige.

So, without considering the strong undercurrents of social and political changes taking place in Tamil Nadu, to say brahmins “hijacked” Bharatanatyam does injustice to verifiable facts, if not to truth.

Since Bharatanatyam was almost abandoned by its practitioners, it is more appropriate to say that the upper crust brahmins adopted the abandoned baby. In doing so, no doubt, the brahmins changed the emphasis in the art form from shrngaram (eroticism) to bhakti (devotion) making it palatable to the social and political environment of that era.
The inherent elasticity of Bharatanatyam coupled with the creativity and the genius of nattuvanars gave it immense strengths. Till the early part of 20th century, Bharatanatyam's repertoire was almost exclusively Tamil lyrics. However, since the middle of 20th century, nattuvanars, when presenting recitals to cosmopolitan all-India audiences, started imagi-natively weaving hymns from the Vedas, Upanishads, Kalidasa, Shankara to Jayadeva, bhajans by Meera and Kabir, Marathi Abhangs, Bengali songs, and padams in Telugu and Kannada into the program.

Thus, Bharatanatyam embraced lyrics from many Indian languages, while other Indian classical dances such as Kuchipudi, Odissi, and Kathak are still struggling to even experiment with lyrics from other non-Sanskrit languages. Bharatanatyam, thus became a truly pan-Indian art form by adapting itself to a diverse audience. In doing so, it expanded its audience base and visibility. Access to greater resources simply followed suit.

 

[Jaykay767]

Hi Naithru,
You are only proving my point. As I said, many of these cultures were part of the broader Tamil society which is being preserved only by us. They were abandoned by different communities for various reasons.

For eg, take Carnatic music, it is almost an exclusive preserve of us TBs today. But in history, Brahmins we're only priests and scholars, not singers and dancers. Purandara Dasan is not a Brahmin and he is considered the father of Karnatagam sangeetham. But with the yeoman continuation of the trinity of music, it was pratonised by us.

Similarly chanting Bala kandam, Aranya kandam, etc is a exclusive preserve of us TBs today. It was not in history, these were song by different communities in Kings courts.

JK.

 

[renuka]

This is the kind of piss on a hydrant and excreta post that comes from kaleeimandais who cannot debate and can neither argue.

Kaleeimandais are exactly like a donkey. They share the same things they bark, eat excreta and excrete shit and piss on a hydrant whenever and wherever they like. And they cannot think nor contemplate nor understand before crapping.

LOL.

LOL!

Yesterday I was at an animal shelter for some volunteer work.
I bathed 5 dogs and the dogs were really friendly and nice.
Even their barking had some raga and tala..the dogs all wanted to bathe and would bark cos the wanted to line up to bathe.

Really had a nice time.
The cats too were very nice and trying to even shake hands!
It was like heaven in there...one could feel the "positive" energy.

E was indeed MC2.

E=My Canine2