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LOL!

Yesterday I was at an animal shelter for some volunteer work.
I bathed 5 dogs and the dogs were really friendly and nice.
Even their barking had some raga and tala..the dogs all wanted to bathe and would bark cos the wanted to line up to bathe.

Really had a nice time.
The cats too were very nice and trying to even shake hands!
It was like heaven in there...one could feel the "positive" energy.

E was indeed MC2.

E=My Canine2


Btn, you are doing great work by volunteering to the animal shelter !! Kudos.
 
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The problem with discussions such as this topic in this forum is that while everyone will agree that abuse is wrong, people will vehemently disagree on what constitutes abuse.

For example, the term "modi-bakths" is used non-stop in this forum to represent some members. I believe that is abuse and is not different from other name-calling. It is a clever way of preventing others from writing contrarian opinions. But clearly the people who use these terms won't agree that it is abuse.Whatever one writes is fair game but what other posts by retort is abuse. This is the thinking. So one gets nowhere in these discussions. Of course, what I presented is just one example. I am sure others can point to other examples.

I am not a big fan of reporting to the moderator. In fact i can say that I have never done it even on those rare occasions where my posts are truncated or red-inked. This is because I understand that there is an inherent bias in each of us about the fairness of our own thoughts and opinions as opposed to the viewpoint of others. Therefore I can never complain against a particular post or member to the moderator.

It is actually not that difficult to establish some ground rules to ensure a smooth discussion, but seeing the reaction on this thread, it may not be possible in this forum.
 

tbs

0
I prefer not to discuss about anyone but since a name is raised I can share my views

Mr Iyer was polite and friendly when he first joined the forum. Then he said some things that did not go well with some people based on being provoked. He was banned I think for a while.

He is an older person close to 90 and is a scholar in many subjects. I think when I mentioned the idea of being focused on content and not attack a person, he readily agreed.

The forum can benefit with his vast knowledge and wit. We all need to hit a reset in this regard.

If there was unprovoked aggression from anyone that should be taken up with the admin by using the Report function rather than discussing the person which is rude
hi
age does not matter....knowledge is okay...but as a human being....in public forum like this.....we need

MATURITY.....ego is common to all....brahmins are famous for HYPOCRACY TOO....if we dont like some

opinions/arguements...just ignore them....
 
OK Mr.jaykay767 about Karnatic music....
Karnatic Music

Music/Dance was always exclusive in Tamil Nadu
In Tamil Nadu, historically, music has always been confined to a few castes. During Sangam time (around Christ) and through the times of Silappadikaram (early centuries AD), we read of people of Paanar/Viraliyar castes adept in music and dance.

Only people of Oduvaar caste were (and still are) allowed to sing Tevaram hymns in Siva temples, and only Vaishnava priests recite Pasurams in Vaishnava temples as part of the liturgical worship. Others can join them. But without the Oduvaars and the Viashnava priests, temple ritual is not complete. It is as if our Gods would accept these hymns only if sung by Oduvaars and priests, even when the original lyrics were written by others, even “untouchables.”

So, it should surprise none that in the 19th and 20th centuries, classical music in Tamil Nadu was confined to only a few castes: Brahmins, Vellaalars (Saiva Pillais, Isai Vellaalars, and Desikars), and the Madurai Sourashtras.

Vellaalar titans in Karnatic music
While the brahmin names of this era are familiar to most Karnatic listeners, there were other stalwarts, particularly between 1900 and 1970: Vocalist Kanchipuram Naina Pillai (1889-1934), Veena Dhanammal (1867-1938), Violinist Malaikottai Govindaswamy Pillai (1879-1931), Violinist Kumbakonam Rajamanickam Pillai (1898-1970), Mrdangist Pudukottai Dakshinamurthy Pillai (1875-1937), Mrdangist Palani Subramania Pillai (1909-1962); Musicologist and vocalist Prof. Dandapani Desikar (Mid 20th century); and of course, M.S. Subbulakshmi (daughter of Madurai Shanmugavadivu of Devadasi heritage), and M.L.Vasantakumari (daughter of Lalitangi, also of Devadasi heritage). Others veterans, namely, Dwaram Venkataswamy Naidu was from Andhra, and Chowdaiah, a Lingayat, was from Mysore.

Nadaswaram geniuses (Karukkurichi Arunachalam, Tiruvaduturai Rajaratnam Pillai and others) and all Nattuvanar legends Kittappa Pillai, Ramaiya Pillai, Meenakshisundaram Pillai were Isai Vellaalars. But Nattuvangam and Nadaswaram were exclusive domains of Isai Vellaalars. (Muslims in Coastal Andhra also were the practitioners of nadaswaram. Sangita Kalanidhi Sheikh Chinna Moulana Saheb who passed away a few years ago was the most famous Nadaswara vidwan from the Andhra region.)

The Dravidian Movement & Karnatic music
As mentioned briefly before, powerful Vellaalars were in the forefront of the Dravidian Movement in the middle of 20th century. With its virulent anti-brahmin plank, the Dravidian Movement was spearheading to break the brahmin domination in Tamil Nadu. Even though many within the Dravidian Movement did not agree with the anti-Hindu vitriolics of the Dravidian Movement, they nevertheless identified themselves with the Movement because of its strong anti-brahminism.

Given the near-monopoly of brahmins in many facets of life in Tamil Nadu at that time—in law, medicine, engineering, administration, films, teaching, newspaper editorship, classical music, writers, novelists—the anti-brahmin Dravidian Movement was politically inevitable and socially unavoidable. Expanding further on this topic here is simply a distraction. But we need to recognize this backdrop to understand why Karnatic music evolved the way it did.

Compounding the anti-brahmin plank was also the Dravidian Movement's Tamil chauvinism in public posturing even though the Dravidian leaders sent their children to English medium “convent schools.” But Tamil chauvinism was good politics. Engum Tamiz Edilum Tamiz (“Tamil Everywhere, Tamil in Everything”) was a popular DK-DMK slogan then.

In Karnatic music at this time, Telugu and Sanskrit lyrics overwhelmed the repertoire. In Madras, the mostly brahmin audiences whose mother tongue was Tamil treated Tamil krtis with disdain, if not with contempt. So, Karnatic music fell neatly into the hands of the Dravidian Movement as another weapon to chastise the brahmins.

The counter movement to revive Tamil Isai was supported by Raja Annamalai Chettiar, founder of the famous Annamalai University, who also founded the Madras Tamil Isai Sangam. Sir R.K Shanmugam Chettiar and Sir P T Rajan (a powerful Vellaalar), also championed the Tamil Isai movement.

Given the 2000-year-old Tamil history in literature, music, and dance, the Tamil Isai Movement to confront the aversion towards Tamil krtis in the brahmin-dominated Sabhas was natural.

In the public discourse, among the staunchest supporters of the Tamil Isai Movement were two colorful personalities—Rajaji and Kalki Krishnamurthy, both brahmins paradoxically.

So, could it be possible that Isai Vellaalar musicians were struggling between their caste and social identity with the leaders of the Dravidian Movement on one side, and their affinity to music, which publicly put them on stage where they had to often accompany brahmin vocalists? And worse still, performing to overwhelmingly brahmin audiences?

And with the stigma attached to music/dance through the Devadasi system, would it be possible that Vellaalars decided to distance themselves from being the practitioners of music, at least in public?

Also as mentioned before, they themselves were joining the ranks of anglicized Indian middle class.

The plight of young musicians of the era
And during this transition, the old patronage by kings, zamindars and landlords disappeared. In Madras, the established musicians (Ariyakkudi, Semmangudi, GNB, Palakkad and Madurai Mani Iyer, Chembai, MS, MLV, Pattammal, and a few others) ruled the roost. The repertoire was getting stale. Melody overpowered lyrics, and established vocalists didn't care for lyrics. Often they unabashedly mutilated the words in the sahityam.

For young musicians languishing behind senior vidwans as pin-paattu for decades, the system was stifling. Vocalists in their mid 40s were called “tender” artistes (“ilam vidwans” in Tamil) seeking a break in their career that seemed to offer only uncertain future, whereas their cousins in Bombay and Calcutta had far more stable lifestyles.

All that the leading artistes of this era could hope was to go to Ceylon or Malaysia, or at best to Singapore where they already had Tamil settlements.

Often, even marriage was difficult for young musicians since brides' parents wanted stable futures for their daughters, and what they saw in young musicians did not reassure them. Seeing some of their seniors languishing in penury for not getting any break, youngsters wanting to be musicians saw the writing on the wall. They looked at their art only as a second career, with many having full-time jobs for financial security, while they performed during weekends. What they found was that when they performed while holding on to their jobs, they became respectable.

The situation was identical to musicians and dancers among NRIs in the US. How many Karnatic musicians in the US can hope to have a middle class lifestyle if they exclusively depend on their art? Honestly, given our tightfistedness, none. But if you're an MD, a PhD, or an MBA, an IT Pro, and then also a Karnatic artiste (or priest), even a mediocre one, you have respect, and prestige too.

With old patronage gone, young Karnatic artistes saw their economic future bleak, the odds of becoming a star low, and only social condescension towards them where it mattered the most. In this overall social and political environment, and given the stagnation of Karnatic music and bleak future in music, could it be possible that Isai Vellaalars did not want to train their sons and daughters in music to pursue it as careers?
ms
 
Today, musicians are already “singing to their galleries.” In Kerala, they load concerts with Swati Tirunal krtis; in Andhra, with Annamacharya songs; in Karnataka with compositions by the Dasas, and lately Vira Saiva poets; in Delhi, they sprinkle Mira and Tulasidas bhajans; in Tamil Isai Sangam one format; in Chennai Music Academy another.

The galleries are filled with one type of traditionalists in one place, another type of traditionalists in another place. Sometime with non-traditionalists. That is all.

In the US, when artistes perform in temples, they are often gently “reminded” to sing only on local deities this many songs in that many languages. When language-based groups underwrite concerts in their annual jamborees, the lyrics are in only one language. So much for Manodharma in Sangitam.

So, the traditionalists' claim that Karnatic music's classicism would be bartered away by changes is untenable because it already is.
 
Jan 20, 2018 · 11:30 am
Kamala Ganesh writes... in Scroll
For Brahmins, by Brahmins: How (and why) Carnatic music became such an elite preoccupation. It is true that Carnatic music’s organisation was caste-based. But why should we be surprised?
I
n September 2017, I heard the Carnatic vocalist TM Krishna sing to a packed auditorium in Mumbai’s cosmopolitan locality of Bandra. The 800-odd-seat St Andrews auditorium usually features English plays, rarely Indian classical music. The music that day was pure Carnatic, the majority of the listeners not South Indian. Given Carnatic music’s traditional appeal to a narrow band, it was a stunning moment for this esoteric genre.

Having been reared on Carnatic music and loving it deeply, I had long despaired that it was not reaching larger and more diverse audiences, even though the genre is comparable with Hindustani music in antiquity and classicism, and has common roots.
Popular reactions say that relative to Hindustani music, Carnatic, as practised today, privileges vocal over instrumental music; gives importance to lyrics, which largely being in Telugu, Tamil and Sanskrit, are understood by few; it foregrounds the composition, and so musicians seemingly devote more energy on accurate reproduction than on manodharma, or improvisation; it encourages the arithmetic aspects of rhythm to overshadow melody; and finally, it has a narrow social base of performers and listeners, which makes it exclusive and excluding. This is all partly true, but misconceptions and the ethnocentrism of non-Carnatic listeners also contribute to these perceptions.

Among experts, veteran musicologist Pappu Venugopala Rao points out that the audience for concerts is still largely South Indian, Brahmin and elderly, even though, in a significant change, performers are now younger. Many star performers are in their 20s, 30s and 40s. V Sriram, a historian of Carnatic music, argues that the form lacks broader appeal because the lyrics draw almost exclusively from Hindu gods and worship: it is religious music.

Notes of change
The most articulate critique currently comes from TM Krishna, a gifted musician in his early 40s. He is vociferous against what he argues is the narrowness of contemporary Carnatic music, with respect to form and outreach. He has brought in changes in his own practice, slowing down his pace, exploring the vilambit, or ultra-slow, laya, while the typical concert races like an express train over multiple ragas, slowing down only at a couple of stations.

He also often breaks the conventional kutcheri, or Carnatic concert, format, with respect to the order and proportion of elements. I have heard him sing an alapana without a composition, or leave the alapana to the violinist altogether, or sing the usually prefatory varnam in the middle of a concert. While concerts now include lighter pieces in Malayalam, Kannada, even Hindi bhajans, Krishna has breached the boundary of kutcheri dharma by including Tamil Islamic songs.
 

prasad1

Active member

Why are you writing in this thread?
Your posts deserve a separate thread.
Naithruji well-written post.
So singing Carnatic music to lyrics about Jesus or Allah is not wrong.
So all this noise coming from some quarters, and ostracising some singers does not hold any meaning.
So T. M. Krishna had every right to sing.
 

KRN

Active member
In arguments ego has the most role. Content does not matter. It is to tell others you won who also do not care because they are absorbed in their egoic thinking LOL
..............
..............
But attacking or challenging statements made is fair game. If some statements have hatred against any group, exposing that content for what it is , again is not an attack but a service.

Sometimes a person is out of words and cannot argue, much less debate. Then they resort to name calling sometimes using nasty words and profanity. That is a clear defeat and such people are not worth the time to argue with. Of course if such people again write content that is illogical and possibly hurtful they can be challenged.

Best is to challenge content and stay in that goal as focus and not attack anyone personally, even while trying to understand the motivation of a piece of content.

What say you....

Attacking the content in an argument can be perceived as a personal attack too. Let me give an exaggerated example. Let's say, person X is an ardent supporter of a political party. Before coming to the forum, he had spent hours, days, months, years in its cause. When he voices his opinion supporting the party in a discussion forum like this, and his views get challenged, the challenge maybe outwardly on the content, but in reality, he may perceive it as very much a challenge on all the time and effort that he has spent on that cause. This jars upon the person as he takes it upon himself ostensibly to defend his cause, but subconsciously to defend himself against the attack on how he has devoted his time and efforts in the past.

On the other hand, there are subtle ways of debating a topic, without name-calling, but nevertheless "acting a fool" and thus exasperating the other by making him repeat himself. I have been a victim of such tactics in this forum. I call such subtle attacks as personal attacks on the other's time and effort spent on putting forth his viewpoint. And I don't see a difference between an attack on the others' time/effort spent in the forum, and an attack on the person's name or image.
 
OP
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a-TB

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When an idea is challenged or a long held belief of self proclaimed great contribution is challenged with holes in logic, the only reasonable response is to respond with logic and show why the holes are not really holes.

When there is no response possible and a tacit defeat is obvious some show off their ability to call names. Is that really a macho thing?

Name calling with no content only shows emptiness in original assertions.

Calling names is sign of weakness especially when the charges of illogical thinking is exposed. All reasonable readers know this that it is a defeat when name calling is the only option available. May there be peace.
 
OP
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a-TB

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Attacking the content in an argument can be perceived as a personal attack too. Let me give an exaggerated example. Let's say, person X is an ardent supporter of a political party. Before coming to the forum, he had spent hours, days, months, years in its cause. When he voices his opinion supporting the party in a discussion forum like this, and his views get challenged, the challenge maybe outwardly on the content, but in reality, he may perceive it as very much a challenge on all the time and effort that he has spent on that cause. This jars upon the person as he takes it upon himself ostensibly to defend his cause, but subconsciously to defend himself against the attack on how he has devoted his time and efforts in the past.

On the other hand, there are subtle ways of debating a topic, without name-calling, but nevertheless "acting a fool" and thus exasperating the other by making him repeat himself. I have been a victim of such tactics in this forum. I call such subtle attacks as personal attacks on the other's time and effort spent on putting forth his viewpoint. And I don't see a difference between an attack on the others' time/effort spent in the forum, and an attack on the person's name or image.

You are right that attacking the content of an argument can be perceived as a personal attack if the person has invested their ego into their positions (that was the message in Post 1). If the person X is interested in knowing what is right , a debate is possible. So the cause to which the person has spent hours may be wrong. If the challenges are with logic then a reasonable person can examine if there are issues with their cause. Most often it becomes ego play in which case facts and logic are out the window,

If someone plays 'fool' and is not sincere in the questions then one can call that out. There is no need to respond. If a person is sincere in learning then based on your time availability you can choose to respond. Why feel victim hood?
 
OP
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a-TB

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hi
age does not matter....knowledge is okay...but as a human being....in public forum like this.....we need

MATURITY.....ego is common to all....brahmins are famous for HYPOCRACY TOO....if we dont like some

opinions/arguements...just ignore them....
Correct, age does not matter. Maturity is needed. Direct insults have no place.

Age matters to better understand a person's point of view. I have not lived in villages in say 1930s and if someone is describing a story from that time we cannot shoot that down by the norms of today. It is possible to have healthy discussion that is lost if one starts accusations right away.

I do agree that abuse has no place and it is important to look at abuse of all forms.
 

tbs

0
Correct, age does not matter. Maturity is needed. Direct insults have no place.

Age matters to better understand a person's point of view. I have not lived in villages in say 1930s and if someone is describing a story from that time we cannot shoot that down by the norms of today. It is possible to have healthy discussion that is lost if one starts accusations right away.

I do agree that abuse has no place and it is important to look at abuse of all forms.
hi

as we brahmins have different sampradayas.....like vadama sampradaya is different from vaishnava

sampradaya....like palakkad sampradaya is different from tanjore sampradaya....in many sampradayas..

we don't know much about others.. so learn from others and understanding others need MATURITY..

many of us does not have enough MATURITY to understand/adjustment with others.......

அடுத்தவ முதுகை பத்தி சொல்வதற்கு முன் ...தன் முதுகை முதலில் பார்க்க வேண்டும்...
 
quote
Superb stuff.
Really good summary of history, context, issues. !!!
Thanks, appreciate.

JK.

unquote
its not mine the credit goes to others which are available in the net
 

KRN

Active member
You are right that attacking the content of an argument can be perceived as a personal attack if the person has invested their ego into their positions (that was the message in Post 1). If the person X is interested in knowing what is right , a debate is possible. So the cause to which the person has spent hours may be wrong. If the challenges are with logic then a reasonable person can examine if there are issues with their cause. Most often it becomes ego play in which case facts and logic are out the window,

I didn't use the word 'ego' deliberately, due to it's negative connotations. All said and done, we are emotional beings. In the case of person X, even if his statements are devoid of logic, if you know where he is coming from, you might refute them with just that little bit of respect for the investment that he had made for the "cause". In my view, it's this bit of respect that makes all the difference. It's not that the moment X is out of words and cannot argue, he directly jumps into name-calling. Where this respect is maintained, there is lesser chance of either party getting into name-calling.

(My views are not related to the recent events of name-calling in the forum or with the concerned individuals. I was responding to the topic in a general sense)

If someone plays 'fool' and is not sincere in the questions then one can call that out. There is no need to respond. If a person is sincere in learning then based on your time availability you can choose to respond. Why feel victim hood?

Right, but in my view, along with name-calling, these other tactics also need to be discussed and condemned. There are many forms of 'personal attack', of which name-calling might be a direct one while an attack on his time is not the least important. All such tactics that derail a debate are to be condemned.

Btw, the word 'victim' is not to be taken literally :)

[/QUOTE]
 
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a-TB

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I didn't use the word 'ego' deliberately, due to it's negative connotations. All said and done, we are emotional beings. In the case of person X, even if his statements are devoid of logic, if you know where he is coming from, you might refute them with just that little bit of respect for the investment that he had made for the "cause". In my view, it's this bit of respect that makes all the difference. It's not that the moment X is out of words and cannot argue, he directly jumps into name-calling. Where this respect is maintained, there is lesser chance of either party getting into name-calling.

(My views are not related to the recent events of name-calling in the forum or with the concerned individuals. I was responding to the topic in a general sense)



Right, but in my view, along with name-calling, these other tactics also need to be discussed and condemned. There are many forms of 'personal attack', of which name-calling might be a direct one while an attack on his time is not the least important. All such tactics that derail a debate are to be condemned.

Btw, the word 'victim' is not to be taken literally :)
[/QUOTE]

Your points are on the mark and applies perhaps the first 5 times. So to be more gentle like you say is a very good advice up to a point.

But when there is a pattern with abusive posts many times spanning over a long time then it is essential to expose the logical issues without resorting to name calling and go into the gutter in the process.

Other tactics by a few has to be exposed as well. There have been deliberate attempts to derail threads for example by a few. By calling that out we will be doing the forum a favor. Agreed ?
 
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renuka

Well-known member
Lets be honest...why are all acting innocent?
Everyone of us strikes back but some just go overboard beyond imagination.

Its just different levels of " crime"..thats all.
 
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