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Brahmins and Non-brahmins: The present day

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tech_rsr

Member
This topic has been raised before in one form or other, and discussed in detail from various viewpoints. However, there is a perspective I would like to share amidst the myriad positive and negative views on the various threads in this forum. Please read through and comment. I welcome discussions in this area and would love to reply to a detailed argument or point of view. Thank you.

The purpose of this thread is to evaluate:

1. What the cultural differences that exist between modern generations of brahmin youngsters and non-brahmin youngsters really are.

2. Whether caste and compatibility are very very closely inter-related

3. What the implications of inter-caste marriage of brahmins to other castes will be

My opinions are below:

1. The cultural differences


Culturally, the huge gaps between the brahmins and the non-brahmins have been bridged, thanks to the better quality of education (or rather, the more uniform quality of education). Brahmins and non-brahmins are educated in the same institutions, are taught the same subjects, wear the same kinds of clothes. The reasons for the rarefaction of brahmins in older societies was the need for brahmins to perform specialized poojas and rituals. The advantages we carried through from these positions were the scholastic abilities. These abilities are also being developed in all castes now, owing to the British education system and emancipation programmes.

Culturally, I have seen few differences between brahmin kids and non-brahmin kids of late. I am a youngster, 26 years of age, and when I studied engineering, I came across a lot of people from brahmin households with very liberal views, which were contradictory to my own. Some of them were non-vegetarians, they were irreligious, didn't wear the sacred thread, and so on. While I didn't have any prejudices for them, I wasn't able to identify with them completely because of the apparent hypocrisy in their lifestyle. Truth is, many youngsters these days don't fit into the brahmin stereotypes of being vegetarian, well educated, composed in speech and action, intelligent and occasionally, high achievers in a conventional school system.

I have also seen non-brahmin kids who were vegetarians by choice, were more decent and well behaved, didn't exhibit any of the pride associated with some brahmins, were in general intelligent, informed and composed in their actions. By comparison to some of them, some of the brahmin students behaved quite ordinarily and weren't great at studies or sports or anything for that matter.

I also came across people who fit the stereotypes very well - I saw brahmin kids who topped classes, who excelled in various areas and were very hard working. And then I also saw the other end of the stereotype - a dalit or a non-brahmin who, owing to the lack of good parenting, good primary education and because of being helped along too much in their lives in general, were pretty bad and sailed through the system on their reservation benefits.

What do I make of all this?


It is possible that a non-brahmin these days, may be accomplished as a student, a professional or in other areas. Although brahmin generations from years past have made high technology, law, the arts and sciences their niche, the gap is closing rapidly because there is no differentiator at the education level. This, combined with the greater freedom youth enjoy these days, makes it possible for them to choose alternative lifestyles, sometimes involving partners who have been born in other castes. What we are seeing, in other words, is a social restructuring.

It is important to note that even in this society, there are hierarchies. There are the rich and the poor, the capable and the incapable, the good and the bad, the effective and the ineffective, the leaders and the followers. An important distinction is that the clan of leaders/intellectuals that brahmins were have been distributed along all these srata. The good thing (economically) for the brahmin communities is that the centuries of grooming scholastic ability have given them unique abilities to be technically exceptional in some fields and leaders in others. The collective future of brahmins as a whole lies in exploiting these innate talents to the advantage of themselves and other brahmin families.

I will dwell on the advantages of this new social structure, in another post.

2. Whether caste and compatibility are very closely inter-related

The average brahmin is different from the average non-brahmin upper class only in the intellectual/philosophical baggage which he/she has carried from older generations. Unfortunately, this intellectual baggage, although valuable, has not been channeled well enough for brahmins to continue to dominate society.

Part of the reason is an uncoordinated migration and the formation of poor networks between brahmin families and communities. A second aspect of the whole differentiator which used to be present in older generations, was the power of exclusivity. The power of exclusivity produces naked power in a structure, which is useful for communities to have an unnambiguous formal structure. Naked power is these days in the hands of those who are wealthy. Invariably, a Tata or a Birla or an Ambani, despite lacking the intellectual background of a Ramesh Ramanathan or an S Radhakrishnan, wield more power and prestige in their economic power than in their intellectual power.

When youth have freedom of choice, they make choices which are more often than not, selfish. Selfish not for their community, but for themselves. It is justified, given the nature of polity, stigma and society in general and the attitudes to brahmins, but it is not good for the community as a whole, as every such deviant only makes the community weaker, and the bonds between members of the community weaker. Now, if the deviants had a very good reason to marry another brahmin, they would have certainly evaluated the opportunity. There will be oddballs who act on whims, and there always have been. But the watershed changes we see these days could be reduced or delayed or even avoided. Caste and compatability, as they stand, are not very closely interrelated.
Digression 1: Social and Economic networks

If brahmins as a community need to be respected, they have to find ways of converting their intellectual knowhow and specific knowledge in various areas to wealth. Equally important is the development of specific knowledge areas by novel methods of training and teaching young kids to succeed. Brahmins have currently no concerted, unified effort to do this. They are spread around the world and are not networked well enough to lead the whole community to prosperity by providing mutual opportunity.

Case in point: There was a study conducted recently on how business network in various communities in the USA. The average circulation of money between Jewish hands was as much higher than that for Christian whites and Mexicans, while blacks languished in the bottom of the spectrum, with black businesses circulating money to and networking with white, Jewish and Mexican business near-equally. There are lessons to be learned from the Parsees as well - the parsees rarely do business with other classes/castes unless they have a high gain to be had from it. They typically are quite altruistic to other parsee businesses and families.

What prevents brahmins from having a similar knowledge, opportunity and financial cooperation?

There could be several reasons - one of the chief reasons are that brahmins often run businesses like a tight ship. The second reason is that being naturally skeptical, fewer brahmins are willing to help other brahmins or do business with them or have business relationships with them. They'd rather prefer to do business with someone they consider manageable. In the olden days, brahmin families had social networks spanning many, many families. These networks were fostered as there were joint families, which encouraged children to develop social skills necessary. In the absence of such joint families, it makes enormous sense to bring brahmins together and have them network socially, culturally and help them grow.
[contd...]
 
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tech_rsr

Member
[contd...]

3. Implications of inter-caste marriages


What are the implications of inter-caste marriages?
  • The formation of new social classes
  • The weakening of existing well-established classes
  • Cultural homogeneity to a greater extent
  • A destruction of the power of exclusivity
  • Schisms and polarization of cultural opinions - strong brahmin proponents and strong liberalists
The above are very good for homogenizing and harmonizing societies, but not for creating a dominating order. There is no collective decision that can be made on the issue, but we seem to be heading in the direction of homogenization.

Is homogenization good for our society as a whole? if so, what degree of exclusivity really is good for the society?

Homogenization is not necessarily good, although it is what is touted often as caste-equality and the like. Homogenization provides an embarrassment of riches as far as equality is concerned. This becomes a representative and political problem, leading, especially in a country like India, to deep fragmentation arising from political power struggles.

Case in point: America's election of a "dumb" president. How could this happen? Through collective inaction, factionism, fallacious policies, lack of transparency, etc. owing to the lack of a clear ruling class. Stalin's rise to power and his oppression was possibly also because of the same. While Britain may appear to have escaped the humbling of the power wielders, the contrary exists in the empowerment of the Prime Minister and the wimping out of the Royal family, who are basically a pin up these days.

One of the main hazards of homogenization is the taming of exclusive advantages, in favour of equality. Equality, although meant to be empowerment of all on all fronts, is actually debilitation of capable classes on their most crucial fronts. This naturally destabilizes societies, entire nations.

Where do solutions lie?
  1. Encourage a knowledge culture amongst brahmins and an entrepreneurial spirit, to help convert the intellectual power to wealth
  2. Develop and maintain our cultural exclusivity and foster economic power, intra-cultural altruism, healthy competition
  3. Take guarded, supported stances when taking collective economic risks
  4. Guard our rich traditions and welcome and encourage youngsters to take part in understanding, appreciating and continuing the culture of brahmins.
  5. Crack the homogenization problem through exclusivity
  6. Encourage networking in business, society and knowledge between brahmins, help foster the knowledge pool inside the network.
 

veekay

Member
This is definitely a very important topic for analysis and discussions. Before I set to write my opinion. I would like to invoke the solka.
“Asathoma Satgamaya - Lead me from untruth to truth
Tamasoma Jothirgamaya - Lead me darkness to light
Mrithyorma Amirthamgamaya – Lead me from death to immortality.”

When we ask the right questions, we shall get the right answers.
The following questions could be applied to all discussions of this site.
What is it to be a Brahman and are we living the way a Brahman should live?
Is there a worse form of Sin than Hypocrisy?
Manu says – a Brahman will be punished twice for his mistakes – do you think today’s Brahmins make the ideal candidates for such a punishment?
My views/answers as under:
A Brahman is the embodiment of compassion and wisdom working to gain in the non-materialistic world- we hardly pursue true knowledge anymore.
I know many Brahmins who have started consuming meat, indulge in alcohol and women (one night stands/whores). To name a comment – the tender cow meat is like jackfruit. However, they proudly call themselves Brahmins and want to wear the punal (sacred thread) for show. This is height of hypocrisy –the worst form of sin.
The great words of Manu has come to be true – we need to be punished

Your whole discussion and solution seem to be a solution for Material plane.
It is very sad to know that the most educated people of India do not pursue the impeccable ultimate knowledge that we have among our midst. Instead choose time and again only to
go after solutions that are the source of the problem.

Materialism to Non-Materialism is Inteligence to Wisdom.
Give a thought for a second along the following lines.
Assume you can never get hungry - how important food for you
Assume wheather has no influence on you - how important is a home for you.

This is not a joke. This is humanly possible - demostrated in a BBC encounter with Buddhist monks in sub zero temperatures.

So, if we can become independent of Time and space - what is the need for anything material? If any, Brahmins should come together to work for this goal.

In my view, unfortunately your well written article has no subtance.


 
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tech_rsr

Member
Veekay, thanks for your view. I agree that my analysis of the problem involves a materialistic perspective. However, you will realize that it is not entirely a materialistic perspective in the sense you meant it. I believe that exclusivity can maintain some of the good things about our culture and give our sense of ethics a chance of surviving in a world of deviants. Ethics can be nurtured only when they are given a chance, a platform of material success on which they can benevolently influence other cultures.

There are some ground realities that need to be considered before rejecting materialistic ideas outright. Never in my post have I encouraged that we should compromise our traditions and values. I have only stated that exclusivity should necessarily be combined with material gains in order that our philosophies survive. (I do not quote maxims and allusions because I want to express what I think in simple language, although it may have been said before.)

In my belief, material things cannot ever be completely separated from one's living existence. Matter is part of the very fabric of our existence. Material success is essential, though not foremost, for human survival and for the survival of human ideas. Exclusivity of thought, fostering of a knowledge culture, exchanges of ideas and economic fostering are all important for multi-faceted development, which encourages people in all walks of life. This seems to be the real duty of Brahmins who expect all in society to be happy, healthy and mindful of themselves.

Without material success, you and I wouldn't be having this discussion, miles apart, on the internet. Material success should not be hypocritically and parochially limited to "flesh", "wine" and "women". It encompasses everything there is in science that is tactile, visible and aural. It encompasses everything we attain, lose and pray for. It includes our hopes and dreams, the objects and objectives we aspire to attain. Do not have narrow minded views of material success. Admit that these successes are important for our ideas to be recognized, to propagate, to be understood and to be practised. Material successes are complementary to morality and help society develop.




This is definitely a very important topic for analysis and discussions. Before I set to write my opinion. I would like to invoke the solka.
“Asathoma Satgamaya - Lead me from untruth to truth
Tamasoma Jothirgamaya - Lead me darkness to light
Mrithyorma Amirthamgamaya – Lead me from death to immortality.”

When we ask the right questions, we shall get the right answers.
The following questions could be applied to all discussions of this site.
What is it to be a Brahman and are we living the way a Brahman should live?
Is there a worse form of Sin than Hypocrisy?
Manu says – a Brahman will be punished twice for his mistakes – do you think today’s Brahmins make the ideal candidates for such a punishment?
My views/answers as under:
A Brahman is the embodiment of compassion and wisdom working to gain in the non-materialistic world- we hardly pursue true knowledge anymore.
I know many Brahmins who have started consuming meat, indulge in alcohol and women (one night stands/whores). To name a comment – the tender cow meat is like jackfruit. However, they proudly call themselves Brahmins and want to wear the punal (sacred thread) for show. This is height of hypocrisy –the worst form of sin.
The great words of Manu has come to be true – we need to be punished

Your whole discussion and solution seem to be a solution for Material plane.
It is very sad to know that the most educated people of India do not pursue the impeccable ultimate knowledge that we have among our midst. Instead choose time and again only to
go after solutions that are the source of the problem.

Materialism to Non-Materialism is Inteligence to Wisdom.
Give a thought for a second along the following lines.
Assume you can never get hungry - how important food for you
Assume wheather has no influence on you - how important is a home for you.

This is not a joke. This is humanly possible - demostrated in a BBC encounter with Buddhist monks in sub zero temperatures.

So, if we can become independent of Time and space - what is the need for anything material? If any, Brahmins should come together to work for this goal.

In my view, unfortunately your well written article has no subtance.
 
R

Ramaa

Guest
Hindus have fourfold objectives in life called purushaartha. They are Dharma or conforming to an order. (It specifically forbids breeding disorder or being a rebel), Artha or acquiring material wealth (shunning material wealth for no reason is meaningless and at the same time Artha must be acquired dhaarmically ie. illegitimately acquired wealth is a sin), Kaama or enjoyment of pleasures including sexual pleasures (again this has to be done in a dhaarmic way. Enjoyment of pleasures by adharmic means is considered a grave sin. For example raping a woman). Finally, pursuing and attaining liberation which puts an end to the cycle of birth and death.

Don't you think it is simple and yet laudable objectives of life that the Hindus have advanced from time immemorial? People don't have to give up their castes and creeds to pursue their objectives.
 
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tech_rsr

Member
Raama: Agreed, that the principles of Dharma preached from time immemorial are applicable. Material means are our instruments to attain perfection in action, speech and ultimately, thought.

But let us not focus merely theoretically, on only one small portion of the whole problem facing brahmins today. That does not give us practical, implementable solutions which retain and nurture our culture while solving our problems. There are several other ideas I dealt with in my initial post. You have responded to one of them, namely - exclusivity. You also brought forth the idea that congruency of thought with our established ideals is to be maintained en route to our successes.

As an aside, my own thoughts and the two responses I have obtained so far reinstate one of the ideas I have had, that we often have brahmins sound in principles, ideals and morals, but few of us are skilled at implementing them and making them work in reality. The brahmin minds are complex, capable and filled with ideas, and these ideas are not always easy to implement. Much effort has to be put into the problems that everyday life offers in order to understand them thoroughly, create systems that work efficiently and encourage the correct attitudes in youngsters. Keeping our minds, kin houses and homes in harmony is the first step towards cooperating with others of a similar temperament, and aiding mutual progress. This progress involves spiritual progress, social connectivity and economic progress. It is not a one-sided progress, but leads to a common goal of attaining a high quality of life, a perfection of thought and an efficient society.
 
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Ramaa

Guest
Dear Tech,

Digression 1: Social and Economic networks

If brahmins as a community need to be respected, they have to find ways of converting their intellectual knowhow and specific knowledge in various areas to wealth. Equally important is the development of specific knowledge areas by novel methods of training and teaching young kids to succeed. Brahmins have currently no concerted, unified effort to do this. They are spread around the world and are not networked well enough to lead the whole community to prosperity by providing mutual opportunity.
You have said so succinctly all that I wanted to say!

I too was fascinated by the closeknit character of the jewish people. But I find the Brahmins are much more individualistic that there is no cohesiveness in them to stick together. Their wealth is their intellectual prowess. This is clearly one with the power of a nuclear bomb. In the olden days our sages and saints emphasised that the Brahmins use it only to advance in their spiritual quest and the Brahmins kept to their compact when a system was in place to protect and honour them.

Today there is no system that would protect and honour the Brahmins and on the contrary there is a system that is terribly inimical to them. What is the impact of this situation? The Brahmins cannot be asked to confine their intellectual power to themselves in their spiritual quest. Left with no sytemic protection they are hard pressed to create it themselves. Many Brahmins have taken over the domains that were reserved for other varnas and the people of other varnas are incapable of competing with the intellectual store house called the Brahmin. The only weapon left for them is to band themselves together against the Brahmins and they are succeeding in it. And the Brahmins with their unyielding intelligence and given their love of individualism, are resisting on a individual basis. This will be interminable fight that will rage for ages! This is nothing new. Our Puranas talk of Parasurama who single handedly defeated the Kshathriyas and distributed their land to the Brahmanas. It took one Brahmana by name Chaanakya to overthrow a huge empire and establish one subservient to him. He wrote a law that was abided for centuries. Even today one Subramanian Swamy is creating havoc to those who are out to destroy our Dharma singlehandedly!

In my opinion we have only two options: One is to exhort all the Brahmins to rely on their inborn intelligence and fight it out. This will be the endless 'class struggle'.

OR

The Brahmins can rely on their spirituality that makes them the unique people capable of doing 'thyaagam' (which is why only the Brahmins were asked to pursue sanyaasa dharma - VedaantakO Braahmanasya) by which alone they can band together. By this banding together (Sat Sangham) they can collectively harness their power to restore a system that will bring back the protection and respect for the Brahmins and the Brahmins would then no more challenge the other varnas in their field of endeavour. I have heard from one or two in this forum that the Brahmins should go back to their tent without this protection. It is neither adviseable nor possible.

In conclusion, the Brahmins are out in the open in pursuit of the three purusharthas of Dharma, Artha and Kaama abndoning their pursuit of Moksha because the system would not allow them to do that. I am tempted to say "So be it." Let's destroy them all and take over! Our sons and daughters can throw away the Vedic injunctions and destroy other varnas by marrying their sons and daughters (kulakshayakritham). The people who think that they are stealing the Brahmin girls do not know that they are the vittil poochi to fall into the fire! Our Vedas say that the God is a Brahmana and projected out of his mouth Lord Agni who became the very first heavenly Brahmana. That is why the Brahmins sit sorrounding him and incite him by their oblation. "AgnimeelE PurOhitham" is the very first sentence of Rig Veda. So we are this Agni and whoever takes on us will be devoured!

So I am prepared to say: "Go out! Take over everything! You will lose your power to do anything only when you forget that you are a Brahmana!"

Regards,
Ramaa
 
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Ramaa

Guest
Dear Happyhindu,

Am not sure how many brahmins will be willing to practice moksha living in this capitalist world even if they were given a system that allowed them to pursue it, or found a place of people that would rever them for it.
How can I tell you when such a system that allows the pursuit of Moksha is non-existant. We have a system where the Sankaracharya is lopped with a murder case and locked in prison. So the only way for you to know will be when and where there is this lofty system. That system will come about on the destruction of the present system which is built with in-built attrition.


In fact, the very internal faultline with brahminism has been the fact that brahmins chose not to follow the path of moksha but instead chose to keep pace with the changing world that gives more importance to wealth than knowledge;
Could you please re-read my post. It tells why the Brahmins chose this pursuit of Artha (gathering of wealth) and Kama (pursuit of pleasures).


and the fact that it is unfortunately destained in this kaliyuga that a moneyed man be given more importance than anyone else (forget caste even God is only money for all these days..pannamda kadavul..).
Dear Happyhindu, Tell me all about Kaliyuga. Do you know what our puranas say about how kaliyuga ends? It is available in this very forum given to us by a learned member' The Vedas say that Kali the destroyer is a Brahmana who decides to bring back the creation!
http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/showthread.php?t=118
(read the FIFTH MUSING.)


Also don't you think it is un-natural to expect a man of intellect to not ask for anything, live in a world surrounded with material benefits but not seek anything material at all? So this internal faultline with brahminism maybe in part the fact that it is something not exactly designed for technology times....
I do not clearly understand what you mean by 'internal faultline with brahminism'. I should tell you that the man of intellect is not a product of the computer age rather the reverse is true viz. that the computer age is the product of the man of intellect. This way the the man of intellect lived from time immemorial inventing the tools as he needed. The Brahmins indeed pursued and would always like to pursue Moksha if there is rule of Dharma. When adharma replaces Dharma then Brahmins abandon their pursuit of Moksha that eventually brings about the collapse of the chaos of adharma. If you have no conviction on this, sorry, I cannot help you to understand any further except by telling you that you would learn this as a witness.

No matter how we wish it were that way, am not sure the ancient seers actually envisaged a world loaded with computers, jets, nuclear reactors, and so on. Our traditional life is still centered in a sorta village way in which a man lives in tune with nature rather than go against it and invent something for convenience (rather cook fresh for each meal than use a refrigrator to reheat old food). How many people are like that anymore?
There is a myth that the tools that we invent enslaves us. The tools help man at one time and constrict him at another. It is the same man who destroys his creation to bring about a new one for his own benefit. This was clearly envisaged in our ancient vedic wisdom. Sri Anbuji's posting clearly highlights it.

Regards,
Ramaa
 
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tech_rsr

Member
Dear Raama,

Thanks for your comment. You have put forward a very impassioned argument. It is true that the mind has been the Brahmin's greatest asset. However, we should not bask in the successes of yesteryear that we may lose today's battle. We should continue to think harder about the prevalent problems, and form collective opinions amongst ourselves and react carefully, in a united way to the larger issues affecting us.

I have a few more ideas to put across, so I will present them here.

We will stand half-defeated when we allow our sense of unity to be replaced by skepticism. It is difficult, but we should do the right thing each time we are faced with a crisis - there is of course no one right thing - perhaps a better word would be "best" or a better term "best possible". One of the challenges facing our community is the fact that we are all not well enough informed and equally informed about goings on that affect our community as a whole. But frankly, there have been more difficult times in history than this, such as muslim rule. There have been communities who have been more oppressed than us in other parts of the world - such as the Jewish community in WW2. Although it has been a continuous struggle for them since, they have been at the forefront in the United states, and we can aspire for a bright future in India's forthcoming successes which have been significantly benefited by initial impetus from our visionary leaders and the wide talents of people from our community.

There are still many things in our favour, in that we are not an impoverished community, although poor brahmins exist in large numbers. They also have the misfortune of being discomfited by the education system which provides much for the dalits and lower classes but affords little for people of poor economic backgrounds but who are from the higher classes. The solution to such problems is personal sponsorship of talented youngsters through well organized funds.

As a case in point - I have heard that the marriage markets for tamil brahmins in the US are structured and well organized. Naturally, sponsoring young brahmin children who have been oppressed by successive governments will be a more difficult task to organize and coordinate, but a culture of personal sponsorship could be encouraged, which would encourage altruism within our community. The best way to help out in this way is to actually reach out and help a poor brahmin kid somewhere in TN to get into a good school and have a chance of a good education.

There cannot be a direct counter to the government and this would indeed be foolish. The really intelligent strategy would be to advance step by step by first creating solidarity in our minds, homes and kin and then in our society. The solution is not the formation of a formal society that people can attain membership in - it is in fact in encouraging a pervasive and connected informal thinking process - which is far more powerful - which encourages intra-community altruism.

Venture capital is another area where our networking can play a crucial role. Successful business models by people from our community should be encouraged. People with entrepreneurial talent but without direction in heir thinking should be taught how to succeed.

Our greatest enemies throughout our march to success are overconfidence (which is all too prevalent in many brahmins I have met, perhaps an intellectual hangover), lack of attention to detail and practical matters (which is also prevalent to some degree), laziness (of the body and the mind - "Aalasyam hi manushyaanam shariirastho mahaan ripuh") and skepticism and infighting amongst ourselves (which is also quite common). If these evils which are killing us from inside can be tackled, many, many individuals can be made more successful, many more can be united to act with solidarity.

There are some solutions towards these common evils that I have mentioned. Some better informed members of this community may know actual scriptures which relate to them. Since I am not as well informed as them, I will use my intuition and judgment to explain them:

1. Encourage an active lifestyle for all brahmin children and adults. Sure, people are different everywhere, but it is possible to encourage an active lifestyle for our children by encouraging them to become multifaceted and practical. An active lifestyle includes pursuits not only intellectual but also physical and social.

2. Develop a liking for our culture in them. Introduce the ethics and morality of our culture into their minds, not with an emphasis to merely understand and appreciate them, but apply them. Develop a sense of direction in their decision making abilities and their thinking. Good parenting is very very hard work. I say this as an unmarried bachelor with limited experience in handling children. Those of you gentlemen and ladies who have more experience will find more to say on this topic.

3. Make them aware of the realities surrounding them in the world, the realities surrounding their community, and inform them about what they have gained from their culture and how to give back to it. If you incite the idea in them, they will pay heed later on in life, in one way or another.

4. Encourage them to be shrewd with their ideas and money. This requires training by example. It is possible to live on limited budgets and amass a fortune by making smart investments and spending on only the useful things. One thing about money management which always applies is "a penny saved is a penny earned" - and although this doesn't always apply in our current high inflation economy, it will be applicable when suitable saving schemes come up (in fact, many already exist). Money management is a vital skill which many kids grow up not knowing and regret it later in life.

5. Encourage them to network selectively in such a way that their networks will be useful. Most often, this requires leading by example. When you show your kid the kinds of acquaintances you have and the kinds of advantages you get out of it, the kid will do similar things. Many kids suffer average quality lives because of average or low quality friendships and acquaintances that give them little pleasure or personal advancement. It is not difficult very to teach your child to be discriminating in their choice of friends.

6. Teach your child the scriptures - the parts of them that will have a lasting ethical and intellectual influence on their minds. Get them to learn a classical language which is traditional to us - say Sanskrit or Tamil, thoroughly.

Mastery over language is directly connected to mastery over what thoughts we allow to come over ourselves. If we are limited in expressing ourselves, we will also continue to think in limited ways.

Encourage the pursuit of philosophy, science, mathematics and art - these are the forte of the brahmins and will continue to be if we foster them in our minds and our families. Although advances in these areas are difficult to come about, by creating an atmosphere conducive to intellectual pursuits, we are only strengthening our forts.

7. This is important for the propagation of the community - encourage young brahmins to marry other brahmins by reason, not by compulsion. Young brahmins are formidable in their intelligence (and I say this not as a particularly obtuse person) and need to see reason for them to do things. Intelligent parenting is a rarity these days, and should be encouraged more, if our community needs to survive. Intelligent parenting is concerned not only with inculcating favourable qualities in children but also propagating one's own culture by fostering favourable marital relations amongst youngsters. The practical side of me sees this as being a difficult task with educated youngsters. One thing that would be on the side of the educated and intelligent parent would be the selflessness argument which places the greater good above the personal good. Money is a weak impetus for maintaining adherence in marriage. Cultural grooming is a much better and stronger impetus.

I humbly believe that parents don't often talk about parenting in Indian households. Sure, they crib often, but don't find solutions and often don't have the discipline to change themselves so that their children will turn out better. Once we make stupidity and under achievement unfashionable, we will continue to encourage the intelligent within our community.
 

Saab

Active member
Dear tech_rsr/Ramaa,

I am enjoying the discussion. Here are a few observations that flashed in my mind.

1) I think Ramaa is right in highlighting the odds in uniting the Brahmins. The difficulty is that each one is his own soverign! This becomes magnified a thousand times when they are let out into the unethical world to fend for themselves as is happening now.

2) I tend to disagree with Sri Ramaa that Brahminism could be alive and well if intercaste and inter-religious marriages happen among Brahmins. This would further shrink the tribe for their cultural upbringing is far different from those of others especially when it crosses the religious barrier. I believe that a girl lost is lost for ever. At least I know one case where a Brahmin girl married another religious person and then got divorced. She now wants to marry a Brahmin but there has been no takers in the last five years. And there was another case in which a Brahmin man married a christian girl (she is from a Nair community a couple of generations ago). The Brahmin man was never comfortable with his wife's Christian community but the Christian woman found herself to be comfortably adjusting to the Hindu way of life which after all was in her blood, psyche, culture and atmosphere. Years later their daughter wanted to marry a Christian boy but her (Christian) mother objected to it! Her argument to the daughter was "If I can marry a Brahmin why can't you?" (!) And the girl was replying "If you can make a choice why can't I? (!!) The daughter had her way.

On point (2) I get the feeling that Sri Happyhindu seem to agree with me.

3) I agree with Sri Ramaa that the greatest deterrant for the Brahmins from pursuing the spiritual occupation away from the material is the lack of security and respect. And it is indeed born of the socio-political system of the last 300 years. Independence has aggrevated it rather than reversing it.

4) Hindu spiritualism and modernity of scientific advancements are not antithetical as Sri Happyhindu seem to hold. In my opinion the present socio-political system is the constrictor of the gratest advancement of India in all fields of endeavour. Liberating Hindus alone can ensure this. This is a huge topic.

5) Sri tech_rsr's intentions are laudable. His solutions are great and must be pursued to alleviate the pain but they are not ultimate solutions. That ultimate solution lies in the reversal of the misdirection of the last 300 years. Some people are skeptical that such reversal is possible. Actually I tend to agree with Ramaa that this present system is destined to collapse when you actually would have a chance to correct the course. Of course the pessimists would raise the scare of blood bath. They are the ones who would sweep under the carpet the fact that the so called 'ahimsa' movement took more than a 10 million lives in just two weeks after 15th August 1947 and many millions more since then in Pakistan, Bangladesh and Kashmir. Nothing would be worse than that.

Again am I belittling the sincere effort of Sri tech_rsr? Much on the contrary. I want that idea to be perfected by the contribution of all the members and hopefully it can be seriously taken up by the community.

Regards,
 
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R

Ramaa

Guest
On the Jewish question here is a fine article:

The Rise of the Jewish Empire: The Jewish Conquest of America

http://www.iraq-war.ru/article/161385

Don't forget to read the first comment by chestergimli.

P.S: When we Brahmins set out on our conquest we may be accused of being the zionists of the East!
 
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OP
OP
T

tech_rsr

Member
Dear Saab,

Thanks for your views. Indeed, this adjunction of ideas I have presented have occurred because of a dialogue which this forum has enabled me. Thanks for listening to my views. It is true that these are ideas which have to be implemented in real life to mean anything. When someone more experienced and intelligent than myself reads this or thinks on the subject, they may have more insightful ideas, perhaps some more practical than most others. It is these practical ideas we should be after. Moreover, the whole attitude we should sport on the way forward should be clear, unambiguous and practical. We cannot aim for a star if we can only reach the moon, lest we fizzle out along the journey and be conquered in the process.

I wonder if the modern world totally lacks the security required for spiritual progress. For one thing, even though people with atheist ideologies are in power in TN, I daresay that these politicians are merely power-hungry hypocrites who use atheism as a pawn in their strategic game in order to push capable brahmins out of the state. It is very possible to find a place secure enough for spiritual progress in India. I think that it is a matter of conditioning our minds to accept the responsibility of taking up such a quest and be aware of ourselves and our place, be aware of our nature and change it for the better, so that our future generations may be better. This is verily the purpose of our future generations - to be better than us at whatever we did and to do things better than we did them. Therefore, if we stand for a bunch of values now - that are variously cultural, scientific, religious, etc., we should find ways of propagating this to our children and future generations in a way that is bound to help them lead better lives. The unfortunate reality of course is what we have discussed often in the forum - the supression of our culture and the hate against it, in a mindless way that eschews the many good things about our culture.

At this point, I have to ask a question: does our self-realization or our meditating on our nature (in order to understand ourselves) depend upon "respect" given by others in any way? If it does, why does it?

I believe that whether one is respected or not, should not hinder our march to progress - be it progress of the mind or material progress. The very justification of whether a man is capable or not, comes from his doings and not the position he is afforded by the society alone. In the end, your achievements speak for yourself. This is more than enough reason for those of us who are not active about our goals to bring a subtle change in our attitudes towards our own abilities. If we are more and more hopeful about what we can do, we try to do better and invariably learn from our failures (and also our successes). Success comes eventually to the man who tries. So, if you are like I am in many ways, which is to say - unsure of what constitutes or defines a brahmin's duty, muddled by social norms and changes, provoked by injustice at some level, but feeling at the same time a powerless man, incapable of changing much, you can realize that the choices are inside you. Make subtle choices to your mentality and make up your mind to achieve perfection in thought, temper and behaviour. It is difficult to observe oneself and learn from one's mistakes.

One of the most common mistakes of even brahmins these days is to declare "good advice" as being "saintly" or as coming from someone who has a "holier than thou" attitude. My sincere request to all of you is: do not restrict your mind with your own thoughts, when you read or listen about others' thoughts/writings. This is surely the first step away from prejudice. Once prejudice is eliminated, we tend to see things much more clearly. From there, perfection is a matter of standardizing one's thoughts and actions to a fundamental truth, and further, wishing well for those in favour of the same attitude of progress in life, comes naturally. When we make the choice to change ourselves for the better, however old we are, however contrived we may appear to ourselves to be, we make choices for the better, we can influence one or two or a dozen people to become in turn more effective with themselves, more perfect, etc.

The progress I speak of is not possible by pretending to be better than we were, when we are not really better than we were.



Raama,

That was an interesting article indeed. It showed the author's disregard for the state of Israel, but put forward a perspective on how the Jewish lobby in the US grew more and more powerful. To me, the Jews represent a cultural success story. Their story has it all - excellence, decadence, oppression, rejuvenation and conquest.

You have mentioned the example of Chanakya who brought a whole kingdom to its knees. Chanakya was not an ordinary man but a legends who showed a remarkable acuity, mental sharpness, strategic planning and execution. He had visions, moulded them into practical ideas and led from the front. He took charge, was in positions of power and calculated every move. He could inspire awe and fear in others as he went about his duties and probably always made sure he was protected by using his vast intellect.

The key to Chanakya was that he could fight with his mind, and not his hands. We each have to ask ourselves whether we can fight with our minds. We have to observe, learn, strategize, implement and start doing things which we feel are necessary to bring justice, order and which can bring us back our respect. The most reliable (and also admittedly difficult) way of bringing back our respect is very straightforward : to earn it.

The situation brahmins are in, should not lead us to despair and whining and whimpering any more, but to solutions. And providing solutions is not the only thing in the art of success - cooperating with others to implement their solutions, improvising on their solutions, solving new problems - these are all part of the whole march towards progress and success.
 

Saab

Active member
Dear tech_rsr,


I wonder if the modern world totally lacks the security required for spiritual progress. For one thing, even though people with atheist ideologies are in power in TN, I daresay that these politicians are merely power-hungry hypocrites who use atheism as a pawn in their strategic game in order to push capable brahmins out of the state. It is very possible to find a place secure enough for spiritual progress in India. I think that it is a matter of conditioning our minds to accept the responsibility of taking up such a quest and be aware of ourselves and our place, be aware of our nature and change it for the better, so that our future generations may be better.
Dear friend, the focus should not be on the hypocricy of the politicians but on what they have brought on the Brahmins which has particular viciousness in Tamilnadu. Don't you see that we are losing our culture - we don't do what we used to do, we don't appear as we used to appear, we don't eat the way we used to in choosing the food, we don't speak the way we used to and we don't practice what we used to practice. Our members have complained a lot about these in this forum. In fact some of the younger generations may not even know how we used to live. They probably assume from the mokery of us in the movies. If this degeneration continues do you think we can generate the 'conditioning of the mind' as you say for the quest. I am sorry to be pessimistic about 'possiblility to find a place secure enough for spiritual progress in India'.

The unfortunate reality of course is what we have discussed often in the forum - the supression of our culture and the hate against it, in a mindless way that eschews the many good things about our culture.
I am in complete agreement with your lamentation. Don't you see that this suppression and hate against us is engaging our attention day in and day out? This is precisely my answer to your question: "does our self-realization or our meditating on our nature (in order to understand ourselves) depend upon "respect" given by others in any way? If it does, why does it?"
I believe that whether one is respected or not, should not hinder our march to progress - be it progress of the mind or material progress.
Sorry my friend: The old adage is based on experience. The old adage is as follows:

அன்னவிசாரம் அதுவே ப்ரசாரம்
ஆத்ம விசாரம் அதுக்கெங்கே நேரம்

All you have to do here is to imagine the plight of Kashmiri Pandits.

The very justification of whether a man is capable or not, comes from his doings and not the position he is afforded by the society alone. In the end, your achievements speak for yourself. This is more than enough reason for those of us who are not active about our goals to bring a subtle change in our attitudes towards our own abilities. If we are more and more hopeful about what we can do, we try to do better and invariably learn from our failures (and also our successes). Success comes eventually to the man who tries. So, if you are like I am in many ways, which is to say - unsure of what constitutes or defines a brahmin's duty, muddled by social norms and changes, provoked by injustice at some level, but feeling at the same time a powerless man, incapable of changing much, you can realize that the choices are inside you. Make subtle choices to your mentality and make up your mind to achieve perfection in thought, temper and behaviour. It is difficult to observe oneself and learn from one's mistakes.
Please read what you wrote dispassionately and tell me: Does this not apply to an individual man (which can be anyone irrespective of his caste not necessarily Brahmin)? Are we not talking about a group of people called the 'Brahmins' who are not just individuals but a group having a unique problem by the mere fact they are Brahmins by birth? What I am saying is this. All that you have written about an individual's challenge in life is quite correct but that cannot apply to the Brahmins as a community becuase what applies to an individual and what applies to a group are totally different. We are talking apples and oranges.

So my dear friend, we as a community are facing a problem that affects all other communities. We as a community are also have a unique problem of inablility to unite among ourselves atleast in the last sixty years since the so called independence. (I say 'so called independence' because I believe we have merely changed masters for which unfortunately many Brahmins have laid down their lives.) We have to overcome our inability to unite by appealing to the saner sections of non-Brahmins who in my opinion are more interested in restoring the glory of Hinduism.

Hope I made sense to you.

Regards,
 
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pannvalan

Well-known member
I agree with Ramaa, in saying that the true stength of a brahmin today is his/her intellectual prowess. But, that itself has led to intellectual arrogance and made him/her assume the role of 'self-appointed socio-cultural judge', capable of deciding things -what is good and what is not - for the entire community. Another important aspect is
lack of cohesiveness amongst brahmins - as always - due to mutual distrust and jealousy. It is not the case in other castes. They are united for a common cause. Of course, I am happy times are changing for brahmins too, with their greater mobility today.

pannvalan
 
R

Ramaa

Guest
Dear Pannvalan,

I see in your postings views always critical and deragatory of the Brahmins. Would you also see some thing positive?
 
R

Ramaa

Guest
Karunanidhi, Varnashrama Dharma and Brahmanism
VEDAPRAKASH
Karunanidhi's exposition on Varnashrama dharma: At last, Karunanidhi has accepted his own brand of "Brahmanism" or "Parppaniyam" followed by him. We should thank him for his confession. I used to ask many times why Kshatriyaism, Vaisyaism and Sudraism are not talked about or even whispered about them. It is not that such-isms are accepted but, it should be quite natural that when is accepted or targeted for heinous attacks and propagandist combats, naturally, others have to be considered for discussion.
In his so-called Question-answer Report (dated 18-04-2008)[1], he has responded as follows:

பூணூல் இல்லாததுதான் காரணம்!
கலைஞர் விளக்கம்
கேள்வி: அந்நாள் அமெரிக்க அதிபர் நிக்சன், அண்டை மாநிலத்து முதல்வர் ஹெக்டே இருவர் மீதும் அவர்களே தொலைபேசியை ஒட்டுக் கேட்டதாகக் கிளம்பிய குற்றச்சாட்டு காரணமாகத்தானே பதவியை ராஜினாமா செய்தார்கள் - ஆனால் அந்த வரலாறு தெரியாத சில வரட்டு மதியினர்; இங்கே தமிழகத்தில் இரு அதிகாரிகளுக்கிடையே தொலைபேசிகள் ஒட்டுக் கேட்கப்பட்டதற்காக முதல மைச்சர் ராஜினாமா செய்ய வேண்டுமென்கிறார்களே? இதற்குக் காரணம் என்ன?
கலைஞர்: என் செய்வது, இந்த முதலமைச்சருக்கு முப்பரி நூல் கிடையாதே! இவர் கடவுளின் முகத்தில் பிறந்த சாதியில் பிறந்தவர் அல்லவே - காலில் பிறந்த சாதியில் பிறந்தவரா யிற்றே! அதனால்தான் இந்த முதல்வர் தலைமையில் இந்த ஆட்சியில் அன்றாடம் நடைபெறுகிற அற்புத சாதனைகளை ஒரு சாரார் மூடி மறைத்துவிட்டு; வேண்டுமென்றே திட்ட மிட்டு சில விஷமச் செய்திகளைப் பரப்பி அந்த நெருப்பில் குளிர் காய முனைகிறார்கள். என்ன நடந்தது? எப்படி நடந்தது? யாரால் நடந்தது? என்று விசாரித்து அறிந்து வெளியிட உயர்நீதிமன்ற ஓய்வு பெற்ற நீதிபதியை நியமித் தாலும்; விகடன் கேலி செய்கிறார்! - சில பல ஆண்டுகளுக்கு முன்பு ஆந்திரத்து நடிகை, காஞ்சனமாலையின் பேச்சையே டேப் செய்து போட்டுக் காட்டி மிரட்டிய பணிய வைத்த பரம்பரையினர் அல்லவா?
Question: The American President Nixon and the adjacent State CM Hegde resigned when the charges of phone-tapping were reported, i.e, they themselves were involved in such activity of listening to phone-conversation of others. Without knowing the history, now some people in Tamilnadu are demanding for the resignation of CM for the conversation tapped between two officers.
Answer: What to do? This CM has no "Three-spun thread". He does not belong to the caste that came from the face of God; but born in the caste that came from His feet. Thus, some people have been purposely suppressing the achievements of this government but spread malicious news and try to enjoy warm in the cold.
Why he should give his exposition of much hated Purusha sukta mantra and giving his exposition of much maligned Varnashrama Dharma confessing that he is a Sudra?

(contd.)
 
R

Ramaa

Guest
(contd.)

What is the significance of "Three-spun thread"?
What exactly, he wanted to convey? If a person has "Three-spun thread", can he escape from the charges of phone-tapping? Then, the "Three-spun thread" worn Hegde must have been escaped, but caught as per his own statement! Or perhaps, he has own brand of "Three-spun thread" and it is invisible to others! Anyway, only Padhmavathi
[2], Dayalu Ammal or Rajathi Ammal can tell the truth[3]. As he wears "Sacred Yellow Shwal"[4], he can wear his own brand of "Three-spun thread"!
Perhaps, he makes others to remember that all can wear the "Three-spun Thread" as prescribed in Manu Smriti.
Hailing from Telugu speaking community, Dhakshinamurthuy alias Muthuvelar Karnanidhi was raised traditionally and he was sporting a tuft on his head. In those days, it is not necessary that only Brahmins should have tuft on their heads, but it was customary that all would have tuft / Kudimi[5] (as called in Tamil) on their heads. He learned Nadhaswaram upto certain level. Even today, he performs Pranayama and practices Yoga. He declares his religion as Hindu in all Government and other forms and applications.
The significance of declaring that "I am a Sudra": Long back, he had declared that "I am Sudra" and so on. Ironically, when crisis comes or he comes to know that he is going to be out, he takes the weapon of "Shudras". Earlier, the slogan was "Ulla shudra Atchiyaik Kappom" = "Let us protect the existing the Rule of Shudra". Now, suddenly, he has implied it, but specifically. In fact, the Communists[6] have accused him of promoting "Varnashrama Dharma". Of course, the DK too then and there takes the stick to beat him. "He does not belong to the caste that came from the face of God; but born in the caste that came from His feet", yes that means now, BSO[7] has become SSO, in other words, the social pyramid had different pattern – SSO, VSO, KSO and BSO. V. T. Rajasekhara Shetty used to write[8], "Shudras may hate Brahmins but they love Brahminism". So Karu loves "Brahminism" of his own brand.
He had a close Parppan-friend S. Viswanathan (SAVI). Once Karunanidhi requested him to search for a "good pappathi" for his nephew's son for marriage alliance. In deed, Dayanidhi Maran could marry priya on August26, 1994. Priya has been a Brahmin, reportedly a niece of N. Ram, the present editor of the Karu's favourite "Mount Road Mahavishnu".
In another occasion also, he declared that his family has all castes – Nadar, Brahmin and so on. So he has become an expert in eugenics[9], just like the European racist experts, who conducted such experiments. There are other stories which are talked about, and all point to this aspect very clearly – eugenics.
In the SUN-group of about 52 companies[10], there have been Brahmins working, particularly, holding important posts. It is ironical to know why the Brahmins should work in such anti-Brahmin Companies or such anti-Brahmin Companies should have Brahmin staff and officers. This aspect has to be studied thoroughly.
Karunanidhi and Jayalalitha: Karunanidhi has been very much disturbed, thrilled or exited, whenever, he used to talk about her. He has used the most derogatory remarks many times right inside and outside TN Assembly as CM or as the DMK head or otherwise, which are well known to be repeated here. Under the guise of attacking her, he has assaulted Brahmin community like anything. Even the matured Moopanar, once commented that, "After all she danced in our function", was referring to Jayalalitha. After MGR, definitely, his scourge has been against Jayalalitha only. The words and expressions used by him are the most unparliamentarily and cannot be printed with comfort.
"I am not against Brahmins, but against Brahmanism": This is the usual way of his escapism or justification or even pastime to malign Brahmins. According to their ideological exposition that Brahmanism has been the dominating tendency, sitting at the top and thus controlling other Kshatriyas, Vaishyas and shudras. Therefore, they want to remove such hegemony in the society. Of course, now Brahmins have been almost eliminated from all spheres and they can survive only with their hard work and merit. Just by telling that one is Brahmin, he / she cannot get anything but scoff, insult and injuries. Thus, when Brahmins were not there, who have been dominating has to be checked out. Naturally, one has to look for other categories – Kshatriyas, Vaishyas and shudras. Tamils know that during C. N. Annadurai period, Mudaliars were dominating and M. G. Ramachandra Malayalees.
DMK not against Brahmins says Karunanidhi[11]: The DMK president M. Karunanidhi said that the party had nothing against Brahmins but only opposed Brahminism. This was the policy followed by his mentor, C.N. Annadurai. Briefing presspersons after a meeting of the administrative committee of the party, Karunanidhi refuted AIADMK and Congress charges that he was deliberately whipping up communalism out of frustration in the wake of his party's rout in the assembly elections held in June 2001.
Answering a question whether there was any difference of opinion between his party and the Dravidian Kazhagam on the establishment of the institute of Vedic sciences and Agama studies in the light of the support extended by Mr.K.Veeramani, Dravidian kazhagam leader, Karunanidhi said the former might have welcome the prospect of Harijans becoming archakas in temples. He did not know whether he had welcomed the proposed institute itself.
Karunanidhi said the former Supreme Court Judge Mahararajan in his report on the subject submitted to the former CM M. G. Ramachandran, in 1972 had said that everyone irrespective of caste or creed could not become a temple archaka unless some amendments to the Constitution were made. He would not agree with the view of some that the unfulfilled wish of E. V. Ramasamy, Dravidar Kazhagam leader, had been accomplished with the present government proposing the institute of Vedic Sciences. Could any Harijan think of becoming an archaka at the Meenakshi Amman temple Madurai or Kanchi Kamakshi Amman temple at Kanchipuram, he asked adding that the Kanchi Sankaracharya himself had expressed his views to the Maharajan Committee that only persons belonging to a particular community could become temple archakas. Thus, in short, his attack had been against Brahmins, though he pretend to argue in his characteristic way.
Moopanar's criticism: "I have not given any advice to K. K. Mopanar, Congress (I) leader. I am a leader of a party and Mr. Moopanar is giving advice. This is the present political climate in Tamilnadu". He quipped when a reporter referred to Moopanar's criticism of the DMK leader's anti-Brahmin speeches[12] and writings[13] and his suggestion that Karunanidhi either remain in politics or become a social reformer. Here, Moopanar had actually exposed his duplicity, as in reality, neither EVR nor Karunanidhi has not achieved substantially in the abolition of caste system and in fact, casteism increased with uglier tendencies.


(contd.)
 
R

Ramaa

Guest
(contd.)

The meeting urged the TN government to give up the proposal to establish the Institute of the Vedic Sciences as it would support and encourage Hindu fundamentalism. He never made such remarks, when Urudu University / Academy was proposed and even established.

Attacks on Brahmins: However, one can note the pattern of physical attacks, murderous attempts[14] etc., carried on Brahmins only during his reigns 1969-71, 1971-76, 1989-91, 1996-2001 and now 2005-2008 Just remember the attacks, which I have already pointed out different forums. Can anyone believe that it could not happen so, had he been not CM? Or it happens only because he was / has been CM. Very often, he forgets that he was / is the ruler of crores of people of Tamilnadu, not simply anti-Brahmin CM, non-Brahmin CM or atheist CM and so on. His anti-Brahmin activism is fuelled by the DK by inciting directly and indirectly. DK used to dig and beat him using the anti-Brahmin stick[16] telling that it is better to follow R. Venkatraman than Karunanidhi for the former respects his Teacher - Sankaracharya, whereas, the latter disrespects his teacher - EVR. Of course, Karu used to carry out gimmicks by criticising K. Veeramani for supporting Jayalaltha and so on. Once, he even ordered to arrest T. R. Balu for making anti-Brahmin rhetoric at a Public meeting conducted at Tana Street, Purasawakkam on October 9, 1990. DK interprets it as his soft corner towards Brahminism.


Many cases of Temple priests being attacked with weapons were reported in 2006-2007.
• Gurumurthy (74) was attacked and his sacred thread and kudimi / tuft cut off (April 23, 2007, at Neyveli town).
• The group also gate-crashed into the house of Gnanaskanda Gurukkal (42) and cut off sacred threads of Gnanaskanda Gurukkal, Ganesan Gurukkal, Gopinath Gurukkal and some other Gurukkals ran away.
• Vembu Iyer was attacked and his sacred thread and kudimi / tuft cut off (April 22, 2007, at Big Temple, Tanjore).
• The attack at Ayodhya Mantapam, West Mambalam, Chennai, had been the most heinous one, as not only petrol bombs were hurled but also two innocent Brahmins were attacked with Arival / big knives causing injuries. Incidentally, these people had nothing to do with any incidence.
So why this place and these two poor Brahmins were targeted have been unanswered even today. Though, the Police arrested some persons, no details were made available to understand the motive of the attack.
In 1980s, very similar incidences took place, of course, when Karunanidhi was CM (1989-91). When one reporter Ganapathy of "The Hindu" attacked and his sacred thread was cut, then only, because of the media, it caught the attention of the authorities and such incidences were controlled.
Conclusion: The Dravidian politicians should be subjected thorough critical study and psychoanalysis also, considering their double-think, double-speak, double-act and so on. There have been few critical studies of Dravidian movement and their leaders. P. Ramamurthy[18] (1983), A. R. Venkatachalapathy[19] (1994), Guna[20] (1994) and others have brought out their critical views, but each has limitations, as the respective author has been bound and controlled by his ideological and political affiliation for example over-zealous Tamil chauvinism (including anti-Telugu, anti-Kannada, anti-Malayalam categories), Sri Lankan issue, LTTE-support, anti-Indian, anti-Hindu, anti-Hindi etc.
Of all of them, as Karunanidhi has been living giant of Dravidian ideology, he should be studied carefully. We cannot brush aside just by considering him a senile and so on. Of course, he could always take shelter under such a pretext, if grave problem comes. Otherwise, his utterances have to be taken seriously, that too, when he makes such utterances or statements officially, inside Assembly. Incidentally, after talking all nonsense, and its reports appearing in newspapers and TV, they have indulged in expunging such remarks.
Just for political survival, if he goes on targeting, attacking and torturing physically and mentally one community, it cannot be accepted by any means. Then, there is no difference between him and Hitler. Ironically, this also adversely affect Brahmins, as the comparison of Brahmins with Jews, place them against Mohammedans. Of course, Osama bin Laden has already categorised Hindus as so.
In the caste based violence, only non-Brahmins were involved. Many times, such skirmishes would have been intra-caste and inter-caste violent incidences. However, Brahmins are blamed for such incidences. The Communists and other affiliated groups exhibit posters every central or state government compared with Brahmins for every happening, whether it petrol rise, or price rise in general. This has been so blind but followed by others and no authority questions, controls or prevents it.

[1] Reported in today's newspapers in Chennai.
[2] His first wife is no more and M. K. Muthu was born through her.
[3] As the Tali tied by Harischandra to his wife would be visible only to him, the "Three-spun thread" worn by him must be visible to his wives only. Here also amomg "wives" – Manaivi and Thunaivi have to be differentiated.
[4] About the "Yellow thundu / shawl", there have been much discussion connecting it with "Kalki Bhagawan", as reported by Indian Express.
[5] The DK used to shout "Cut off the Kudimi and Punul of the Parppans".
[6] Arunan, Dravida Iyakkam – Oro Marksiya Ayvu (The Dravidian Movement – a Marxist Point of view), A. Abdul Wahab, 6/16, By-pass Road, Madurai - 18, 1981.[7] The expression BSO – Brahminical Social Order was reportedly used by Kanshiram.
[8] Periyar E. V. Ramswamy, The Salvation to shudra Slavery, Dalit Sahithya Akademy,
Bangalore, 1986, p.ix.
[9] The science of using controlled breeding to increase the occurrence of desirable heritable characteristic in a population.
[10] The fight between Maran brothers and Karunanidhi is just a political stunt and gimmick, as Karunanidhi and his family members have been partners and directors in one or the other way in all the Companies and hence the financial bondage cannot be broken or separated. The Corporate veil has been so strong and it cannot be pierced and seen through!
[11] The Hindu, Wednesday, October 30, 1991, p.3. A report appearing with the same caption.
[12] Karunanidhi made many speeches against Brahmins and Hindu religion, the moment, his party got defeated in 2001 Assembly elections.
[13] In Murasoli, his writings had been as usual with blasphemy. Ironically, the fight between DMK and DK or rather "Udal" is revealed in the Murasoli (DMK mouth piece) and Viduthalai (DK mouth piece).
[14] Last year, innocent Brahmins were attacked with lethal weapons throwing petrol bombs in Ayodhya Mantapam,
West Mambalam, Chennai, in which two Brahmins received sword's cuts.
[15] Kali. Pungundran, Kalainjaum, Kazhagamum (Kalinjar and Kazhagam or Karunanidhi and DMK), Dravida Kazhaga Publication,
Madras, 1995.
[16] Ibid, p.37.
[17] Ibid, p.46-48
[18] P. Ramamurthy, Ariya Mayaiya? Dravida Mayaiya? Vidhuthai Porum Dravida Iyakkamum (Was it Aryan myth or Dravidian Myth? The Freedom Struggle and the Dravidian Movement, Pazhaniappa Brthers,
Madras, 1983
[19] A. R. Venkatachalapathy, Dravida Iyakkamum Velalarum (The Dravidian Movement and Vellalars), South Asian Books,
Madras, 1994.
[20] Guna, Dravidattal Vizhnthom (We fell because of Dravianism), Tamizhaga ayvaran,
Bangalore, 1994.
 
R

Ramaa

Guest
Per capita income of Brahmins is the lowest’
http://www.hindu.com/2008/05/02/stories/2008050251711100.htm

Special Correspondent

Bangalore: Koota Samaja Organisations Federation, a conglomerate of six
associations representing Brahmins hailing from Udupi district and living all over the country has come out with an agenda to help poor and meritorious Brahmin children with scholarship for pursuing their education.
Giving details of the federation, its general secretary Yajnanarayana Herleru and K.L.B. Aithal, K. Keshava Holla, K.N. Raghavendra and Ganesh Rao, executive committee members, said that a statement by the government on the floor of the Legislative Assembly prompted them to take up such philanthropic programme for Brahmins.

Mr. Herleru said the per capita income of Christians was Rs. 1,562,
Vokkaligas Rs. 914, Muslims Rs. 794, Scheduled Castes Rs. 680, but that of
Brahmins was the lowest with Rs. 537 in the State. He said that 50 per cent of the rickshaw pullers in Patel Nagar of Delhi were Brahmins and 44 per cent of the children from the caste were dropouts at the primary school level and 36 per cent at the high school level.

He said that while 45 per cent of the people across the country belonged to
the below-the-poverty line, it was 55 among Brahmins. Mr. Herleru said that the federation had the desire to extend the scholarship to other sections, but only after meeting the needs of Brahmin children.

Brahmins, even though educated, were not getting employment and were not
getting even menial jobs and were in penury. The federation would be inaugurated by the Pejawar Math’s Vishvesha Tirtha Swami on May 3.
 
R

Ramaa

Guest
Dear Happyhindu,

Good to see you back! Hope your eye 'problem' is over.

You are talking lot of politics while seemingly opposed to it. Let me quote a couple of instances that you have recited in your post.
A particular amma made a family bankrupt by choosing to “buy” jewellery extensively but never paying for it. Everyone knows this amma is a mere puppet in the hands of a particular friend of hers whose family has cronies that ran a ‘goonda raj’ of sorts...

The son of the jeweler managed to revive the biz but ended up becoming an avowed supporter of the opposition party and paying money to that opposition party (perhaps a case of paying some sort of unsaid “protection” money) In time, he got poorer from his donations (they got higher and higher and he got too old and tired to cope). The biz kept dying a slow death - is currently soon to be closed ...
I welcome your efforts in bringing to the attention of the readership the atrocities committed by the powers that be on the powerless people. When a government that is supposed to protect the people itself turns against them it is like வேலியே பயிரை மேஞ்ச கதை.

What is your solution? Please don't tell me that we have to run away from them! It is no solution and there is no place to run!

You have said that some of your friends 'want to concentrate on something beneficial coming out from the discussions here, meaning- searching for a collective solution rather than focusing on the problem itself.' I have not seen any solution coming out of them for a meaningful dialogue. Besides, what could be the solution if we are not allowed to say the problem?

Is it OK if we insulate ourselves saying we are sick of listening to the problems as they are against a particular political party or parties? Or is it still better to say that a person is only highlighting problems without suggesting solutions so much so he is making political propaganda for one party or another? Is it not a method of trying to silence someone from airing his views?

Let me suggest to you this? If you guys think I am interested in raising the problems and you guys are interested in finding solutions - and if these be our disadvantages - then let us turn this disadvantage into an advantage. Let me and other dumb guys raise the problems and you wise guys give the solutions. (No offense intended to either of us!) In that case we may even have a chance to discuss the solution and an acceptable solution could certainly be a basis for action. (I remember there was a gentleman called Amoorkan who posted reciting some problem and he was asked to spell out his own solution or stop posting. The poor guy quit!) My point is everyone who is interested in solution should volunteer to give a solution otherwise they also can be accused of not interested in solution but only want the person raising the problem to disappear!

Besides my friend, this world has endless problems each one would be newer by the day! We have to keep talking about them endlessly. And hopefully we could find solutions. Believe me, it is easy to suggest that we find solutions but solutions themselves are not easy. When we talk about them then we would be finding how difficult they are and how handicapped we are. It may even involve us getting into the dreaded politics! The easiest solution is to run away from them and ban those who raise the problems accusing them of being politically motivated!! I have sworn that I am apolitical but that doesn't seem to cut ice! It seems the saying is true: "Give the dog a bad name and hang it!"

Regards,
Ramaa
 
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happyhindu

Well-known member
Its true the internet is becoming mightier than the sword. And words are present day bullets in this virtual battlefield.

By reinforcing stereotypes and propagating the idea that brahmins feel that all shudras somehow or the other dislike brahmins is un-necessary – that’s what certain sections of NBs in fact want to hear, so they continue to live in the beliefs instilled in them to work against the brahmins.

There are NBs who truly in all their heart believe that brahminism is the entire bastion of casteism and by toppling this one class, the entire structure called caste-system will eventually collapse (they believe brahmins are the creators and keepers of the caste system to this day). There are extreme ppl who genuinely believe they are working towards this ‘good cause’ of getting rid of brahmins / brahminism.

Let them know that you are custodians of hindu culture who do not stand for suppression of any caste, but those that merely exist doing a job as anyone else does since everyone cannot do everyone's jobs; and most importantly by letting others know that you are neither inferior not superior but an equal among all humans - so there is no need to work to topple your class.
 
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R

Ramaa

Guest
Dear Happyhindu,

Great! Congratulations and thanks for the positive input!

Regards,
Ramaa
 
R

Ramaa

Guest
Dear Happyhindu,

Is not behaviour an individual trait? If so how can we justify a group behaviour?

If there is group behaviour then what motivates such group behaviour?

If group behaviour is accepted then why confine to groups among Hindus only?

Can you rake your brain on these questions and give me your thoughts?

Thanks and Regards,
 
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R

Ramaa

Guest
Dear Happyhindu,

Thanks for your thoughts.

I think it is easy to focus on an individual. In that case a person acts in self-interest. For example when your boss tells you to do something which you might consider to be illogical, what would you do. The options are: (a) tell him it is illogical and refuse to do it; (b) tell him it is illogical and if he persists do what he says; and (c) don't question or counsel the boss but straight away do what he says.

For good or bad reason if you disobey your boss the consequence is clearly one and only one viz. that you would be fired! Would you rather get fired? Certainly not! So you would not question your boss but carry out his orders.

You would venture into point (b) above if you have the conviction that he might listen to your logic. And perhaps he might have your input if he is convinced that you would ultimately yield to his wisdom and carryout his orders.

And point (c) above happens when you are convinced that your boss would brook no interference from you.

In all the above what motivates you to do is the self-interest viz. to preserve your job.

Not merely preservation of job which benefits you, you would do anything and everything that preserves you whether be talking to a person or refusing to do so or getting married to a fine lady or begetting children and so on and on. In essence all karmas are done for the joy of one's own self. Behaviour is a karma too.

This pursuit of the joy of one's own self is called 'Kaama'.

So the deduction is that the self has kaama and kaama leads to karma.

No other scriptures but our Vedas say this truth in the following verse:

'aathmanasthu kaamaaya sarvam priyam bhavathi'

The above conclusion was reached in the Veda after it recites a statement in the question answer format.

"Why would one loves his wife? Because he loves his own self."

"Why would one love his cow? Because he loves his own self."

"Why would one love his wealth? Because he loves his own self."

So the conclusion was the love of an object whether animate (wife for example) or inanimate (such as wealth) stems only from the love of the self. The love and the self are not separable!

Now coming to a group, the first thing we have to address would be how is it composed? Can people of diverse interest band together?

Before continuing let me have your thoughts on your idea of a group.

Regards,
 
R

Ramaa

Guest
Dear Happyhindu,

First of all I wish to acknowledge here the boldness of our ancesstors in their spirit of inquiry that has led us to be great children of Bharat. Our saasthras say that in the forest of Naimikaaranya those sages raised the question of questions: "What is it knowing of which all else can be known?" Of Course they did find the answer too!

Let us tread in the path of inquiry they have blazed!

OK, you have made out that those who have a 'sense of self' are good and those who do not have it are bad.

Now my question is: What is this 'sense of self'? Do everyone have it or not? If not, why not?

I am interested in your answer.

Regards,
 
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