Ramanuja and Non Brahmins

[sarang]

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Usual style:
When someone talks good about india or its past, throw mud at him. If someone abuses hindus, glorify him. What is new?

Since the history departments of JNU and indology chairs in outside universities are heavily biased against indian culture, vedas and brahmins in particular, none of them allow students to study Dharampal's works or do research or publish papers. Dharampal led a simple, frugal gandhian life; perhaps his family had other priorities. And Dharampals inferences are from the records available, but kept hidden.

Hindutva is respect for our religion, scriptures, traditions and values. If more people subscribe to the core values of hindutva, the country will move in the right direction.

Re. Gurumurthy, where is the camouflage? What is the need. He has been writing on indian community groups, community business practices, finance and dharmic business practices for a long time.

The last point on labour is ludicrous. The community generates the capital, provide the infrastructure and security. They generate jobs for all communities including their own; Nowhere it is said that they should not or will not employ from other communities. All the soldiers in the king's army were not kshatriyas.

Whether you like it or approve it or not, diamond industry is with the jains, transport with namakkal gounders, textile with the marwaris. No one is talking of exclusive rights or ownership. One can learn how they help the community to grow and prosper, and take care of weaker sections among them.

What you must understand is that there is a hindu model for us practiced for thousand years. British education has made us ignorant of its usefulness, validity and perhaps superiority. Let us first understand what they are before labeling our system as unworkable; the reason for rejection should not be hatred for anything indian.

Dharampal's views have been discussed here in the past. For all his glorification of pre-British India and the great harm caused to India's glory by the British, Dharam Pal's family emigrated to the very same Britain long before his demise. What an irony!! A man who could not even convince his immediate family trying to lecture to the whole population!

Shri Gurumurthy is a well-known hindutva proponent and his camouflage here is for all to see.



65.1% of population own 57% of NFE, whereas the forward castes forming
34.9% of the population own 43% of all the NFEs.

More, both the diamond cutting and the hosiery run because the labour comprises of people from all castes. If the labour were limited on caste lines both would have floundered long ago. So, what Gurunurthy advocates is ownership of capital on caste lines. Will this go along with the ideal of a secular, casteless society?

 

[sangom]

Usual style:
When someone talks good about india or its past, throw mud at him. If someone abuses hindus, glorify him. What is new?

Since the history departments of JNU and indology chairs in outside universities are heavily biased against indian culture, vedas and brahmins in particular, none of them allow students to study Dharampal's works or do research or publish papers. Dharampal led a simple, frugal gandhian life; perhaps his family had other priorities. And Dharampals inferences are from the records available, but kept hidden.

Hindutva is respect for our religion, scriptures, traditions and values. If more people subscribe to the core values of hindutva, the country will move in the right direction.

Re. Gurumurthy, where is the camouflage? What is the need. He has been writing on indian community groups, community business practices, finance and dharmic business practices for a long time.

The last point on labour is ludicrous. The community generates the capital, provide the infrastructure and security. They generate jobs for all communities including their own; Nowhere it is said that they should not or will not employ from other communities. All the soldiers in the king's army were not kshatriyas.

Whether you like it or approve it or not, diamond industry is with the jains, transport with namakkal gounders, textile with the marwaris. No one is talking of exclusive rights or ownership. One can learn how they help the community to grow and prosper, and take care of weaker sections among them.

What you must understand is that there is a hindu model for us practiced for thousand years. British education has made us ignorant of its usefulness, validity and perhaps superiority. Let us first understand what they are before labeling our system as unworkable; the reason for rejection should not be hatred for anything indian.

Dear Shri Sarang,

I strongly feel that by now you should feel indebted to me and my views, because you would otherwise have had very little opportunity to badmouth someone (here, it's me) and praise your own imaginary hindutva-related concepts!! LOL

I have not made any comments about Dharampal's views as such, but the fact remains that not even his wife and children seem to have left him long ago and emigrated.
"In 1950, Dharampal resumed his work with Mirabehn, and the community village of Bapugram near Rishikesh began to be formed. However, disillusioned by the futility of this idealistic experiment in community development, which seemed to have no impact on the Nehruvian mainstream, he left the village in 1954 to join his wife and two small children in London where he spent three years, mostly working for Peace News, a journal published by the War Resisters International, focusing on peace issues and nonviolent social change."
(Dharampal - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

Whatever your imagined "hindu model" (of industry/capital ownership) might have been, it could not withstand the onslaught of British Colonialism, nor could the hindu model of governance of the country withstand any of the very many onslaughts right from ancient days. Hence both these - the hindu model of country governance and the hindu model of industry - are "failed models". Even if someone were to foolishly try to resuscitate those models, I think they will not work because today we do not have the caste-based society which provided the cheap labour of the Shudras as a matter of legal right of the entrepreneurial class which belonged to the higher castes.

Diamond industry is not with Jains but with the people of a small area Palanpur who are gujarati hindus and have long back migrated with their families to Belgium. Of course some Jains also are there.

Gounders may be controlling transport business but will they be able to go out of TN and do anything on an all-India basis? Or, is it that you think hindutva and TN are what matter, nothing else?

In today's world it is the individualism which counts and the world has shrunk to a village. Industry also is today not what it was in pre-British India. Hence, what failed when the British started their factories here in those days, itself has hardly any chance of success today. Therefore, what is the point in simply arguing for the sake of argument and trying to eulogize the "hindu model", Gurunurthy etc.?

 

[palindrome]

palindrome,

When I have said, 'forefathers', I am talking about the 6 generation or so that I know about MY family. I do not claim any purity of blood or otherwise. I only know what they did in our traditional village.

Regarding your other citations of all other traditions, I have already said, I believe that they exist/existed. Never denied anything.

But I have pointedly narrowed my focus in to one group. Sorry, other than this, I don't know what else do you want me to do? Don't call these people 'Brahmins'? These people exist today in reality, represented by a community, generally called 'Brahmins'.

Regards,
KRS

Sir, regarding your last para, things are subject to debate. However, i sense things will not go okay if pursued any further. Because i feel i have already stretched the sensibilities of the forum far. So any more on the point will lead to forum members getting upset (i have not even started the thread on agamas yet for that reason bcoz i feel it will be very upsetting for some). All i can say is sir, i do not believe in a birth-based community; nor do i subscribe to the karmakanda definition of a brahmin (in my view Nammalvar was a brahmin by birth). Thankyou sir.

 

[palindrome]

I am only reminded of the face to face idea exchange programme between Sri Sri Ravishankar and Dr. Zahir naik. Whenever ravishankar opens his mouth to quote something, naik will silence him with his own version of obscenities and demand that sri sri to prove otherwise. Ravishankar must be praised for not quoting anything from islamic scriptures that will show that religion in a bad light. He was always his smiling self, but couldn't insert anything positive in the half hour programme. He later on explained to his devotees what that exchange was all about. All available in u tube.

Now naik's peace tv and his print magazine are banned in india. Brahmins are a patient lot, and will not normally fight back, but expect divine intervention in some form. EVR's vituperative campaigns (poonalai aru, mudiya vettu, silayai udai) have all met their due samadhi. His DMK and AIDMK heirs have immense respect for brahmins in private and social life, but in political posturing and in sharing the loot are compelled to see brahmins as adversaries. If reservation is done away with, all will become equal in the eyes of all.

As usual you beat around the bush. But never answer to the point. The question was on your statement that "Varna kula dharma is the individual's choice and sanctified by tradition".

So answer to the point here:
1) why does Manusmriti ask for a shudra baby's name to express something contemptible?
2) why does Manusmriti ask for a shudra to be kept terrorized into slavery?
3) who in varna system was allowed to convert from shudra into brahmin, due to his individual choice?

 

[KRS]

palindrome,

It is no secret that I too don't like the caste by birth system and that I do not follow 'purva mimamsa' path. But, I recognize that Karma Kanda is still being followed by a lot of these folks as a part of their Vedic tradition, in which they fervently believe in. That is part of what we call as our religion. We just can not wish it away.

By the way, yes, Nammalvar was a saint and I have no issues calling him a 'Brahmin'.

But you seem to deny the existence of a real community who call themselves 'Brahmins', who are recognized as 'Brahmins' by the Indian government, are attacked as 'Brahmins' for their role (not ALL of them) in framing the social polity of the past (Dharma Sastras). The point here is, whether one agrees with what they have done, there are a sizable number of people in India representing this community. Again, one can not wish away their existence.

I for one and I have stated so previously, would very much like to know about the Agamic tradition.

I respect your right of not having to continue our discussions. But, at least let me know what are we disagreeing on!

Regards,
KRS

Sir, regarding your last para, things are subject to debate. However, i sense things will not go okay if pursued any further. Because i feel i have already stretched the sensibilities of the forum far. So any more on the point will lead to forum members getting upset (i have not even started the thread on agamas yet for that reason bcoz i feel it will be very upsetting for some). All i can say is sir, i do not believe in a birth-based community; nor do i subscribe to the karmakanda definition of a brahmin (in my view Nammalvar was a brahmin by birth). Thankyou sir.

 

[palindrome]

palindrome,

It is no secret that I too don't like the caste by birth system and that I do not follow 'purva mimamsa' path. But, I recognize that Karma Kanda is still being followed by a lot of these folks as a part of their Vedic tradition, in which they fervently believe in. That is part of what we call as our religion. We just can not wish it away.

By the way, yes, Nammalvar was a saint and I have no issues calling him a 'Brahmin'.

But you seem to deny the existence of a real community who call themselves 'Brahmins', who are recognized as 'Brahmins' by the Indian government, are attacked as 'Brahmins' for their role (not ALL of them) in framing the social polity of the past (Dharma Sastras). The point here is, whether one agrees with what they have done, there are a sizable number of people in India representing this community. Again, one can not wish away their existence.

I for one and I have stated so previously, would very much like to know about the Agamic tradition.

I respect your right of not having to continue our discussions. But, at least let me know what are we disagreeing on!

Regards,
KRS

Sir, in today's times hardly a pinch of the population have learnt vedas and live the life of vedic priests thus qualifying themselves as karmakand brahmins. Those who think they are born into a certain community, expect a thread and the gayatri to somehow entitle them as claimants are at best pretenders. What the government registers is besides the point (the outcomes of a government is after all in our hands finally).

Wishing away anyone's existence cannot happen. However it is a fact the pretenders are part of a lot of nonsense, including hindutva politics of somehow validating dharmashastra laws for present times (and this invariably includes keeping birth-based labels and divisions intact, whilst doing a lot of hogwash and eyewash to fool people). This is what one wishes they do away with. Finally sir, it all comes down to the conscience (manasakshi).

If only we could love life and people more than religion and religious identities, the world wud be so much different. Since that is impossible for all, we have to think how best we can make do for a peaceful coexistence. For a start, it wud be nice, if everyone who thinks they are 'upper' classes, examine themselves, ask themselves why they claim so, and in addition, give up birth-based positions. After all, our every thought starts to build reality. To build a conscious reality based on conscience is a moral responsibility. Once self-claimed-upper classes begin to give up their birth-based positions, one can expect the society to sort itself out (after of course a phase of great social upheaval).

As regards disagreeing, am sorry sir, i misperceived things. Was presuming you also believe in a birth-based system.

 

[Nara]

.... He then climbed the wall and from atop the wall he shouted to the crowd below asking them to repeat thrice a mantra, which he recited. Ramanuja cried aloud “Om Namo Narayana”, and the crowd repeated it in chorus.

The earliest text in which this incidence is narrated is called Arayirappadi guruparampara Prabhavam written by Pinpazhagiya perumal jeeyar, a sishya of Nampillai. There are several discrepancies between the account of this incident presented in this text and the one cited above. Some are listed below.

1. According to the text Ramanuja went to Therkazvan sannidhi (Nrisimhar Sannithi) not to the top of the gopuram or a tall wall.
2. The text says he addressed the "thiruvolakkam" i.e. ghoshti, gathered at the sannidhi. The term "ghoshti" has a very specific meaning among SVs -- it refers to the gathering of fellow Brahmin SVs (these days in some temples kalai also matters, Tenkalai won't let vadakalais join their ghoshti and vice versa). So, it is doubtful whether the ghoshti Ramanuja addressed comprised of anyone other than Brahmin males.
3. The text says he only explained the meaning of the moola manthra to the "thiruvolakkam" i.e. "ghosthi" and did not do mathra upadesam. This may seem a distinction without difference, but for traditional people there is a huge difference -- to them the benefits of reciting a manthra can manifest only if done after upadesam. In other words, the belief is, reciting the manthra without having been formally given in upadesam will bestow absolutely no benefit.

This text was written at least 100 years after Ramanuja's time, hardly contemporaneous. Therefore, the authenticity of what is found even in this earliest recounting is not beyond doubt. However, we can easily see that this text does not verify the validity of any telling of the incident that includes Ramanuja climbing on anything and shouting out the Moola Manthram.

Cheers!

 

[london swaminathan]

Dear Nara

Thanks for adding useful information. I think it gives 'some proof'.
I have heard from my Iyengar friends of Madurai that the SELLUR IYENGARS are non brahmin converts.
I dont know whether it is true or false.
But the Vadakalai Iyengars always look down upon Sellur Iyengars.
Is there marriage alliance between them? I mean giving and accepting brides from the communities?

As for me I respect every Hindu with pure heart at the same level.

 

[Nara]

....I have heard from my Iyengar friends of Madurai that the SELLUR IYENGARS are non brahmin converts.
I dont know whether it is true or false.
But the Vadakalai Iyengars always look down upon Sellur Iyengars.
Is there marriage alliance between them? I mean giving and accepting brides from the communities?

I think you mean சோழியர். There is nothing in SV texts that indicates they are one time converts to Brahmin jAti.

There were always people of many jAtis among Sri Vaishnavas, including ones considered untouchable. But, there is no textual evidence for conversions of jAti having taken place. This is not to say such mobility never took place. There is at least one case in which a Brahmin SV gave up his poonal and became sAttaada SV, i.e. non-poonal wearing SV, i.e. perhaps jAti-less SV. They are now a distinct jAti who mostly live in Sri Rangam.

Marriage alliances among SVs across jAtis probably did not take place because THondaradippodi Azhvar's "கொடுமின் கொள்மின்" was interpreted by early SV scholars to not include marriage alliances.

As for me I respect every Hindu with pure heart at the same level.

This is intriguing. How are we to tell who is pure hearted? How about pure hearted non-Hindus?

Cheers!

 

[Vaagmi]

This is an interesting thread. But I find something missing here. Will some one explain what was it that Ramanuja learnt from his Guru. Certainly it could not have been just a name of God. That would sound ludicrous. If the Guru had revealed something it could not have been just the name of the God. So what is it that was revealed? It could have been even something which can not be passed on to an uninitiated/under-prepared person as he/she may not grasp the true meaning and hence may either ignore its importance or may misinterpret it and cause damage to the knowledge that was passed on originally. None of the scholars here have cared to elaborate on this. If this is revealed to us, the ignoramuses here, we will be able to appreciate what is the argument about. That would perhaps also throw light on whether the heterogeneous members of the ghoshti that had assembled there in the koshtiyur temple would have really benefited from Ramanuja's shouting the "moola manthram" from the heights of the tower there. I wait eagerly to hear from the scholars here. Thanks.

 

[Vaagmi]

Dear Nara

Thanks for adding useful information. I think it gives 'some proof'.
I have heard from my Iyengar friends of Madurai that the SELLUR IYENGARS are non brahmin converts.
I dont know whether it is true or false.
But the Vadakalai Iyengars always look down upon Sellur Iyengars.
Is there marriage alliance between them? I mean giving and accepting brides from the communities?

As for me I respect every Hindu with pure heart at the same level.

Dear London swaminathan,

You aare perhaps referring to Sellur which is part of Madurai. I am told by a friend that the agraharam there is inhabited by the people from Saurashtra who came and settled in Madurai during the Naik dynasty's rule there. They are known as Pattunool kaara commun ity as they were engaged in weaving in those days. They were vaishnavs who came from Saurashtra and were not brahmins and so were called non-brahmins by all the brahmins living in Madurai and this include iyers too. Hope this helps the discuyssion. Thanks. This is just like we call the mukkanyas living in Tiruchendur as nbs even though they claim they are iyers and we look down upon the madhyaannapparayas of kallidaikurichi as nbs for some funny reasons.

 

[london swaminathan]

Dear Vaagmi

I am from Madurai. I lived there for thirty years before moving to London in 1987. I have got close friends in Sourshtra community. But the people I mentioned earlier are called Sellur Iyengars.Most of them have black complexion. When I come to India next month I will find out more from my brothers. Our next door neighbor was a Sellur Iyengar in North Masi Street, Madurai. Probably it may be a local term.