brahman and maya

[renuka]

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My answers in blue

a. Krishna is talked about as a miracle maker in Bhagavatham and other such scriptures. If you think Krishna is not a miracle producer that is sign of wisdom..
But ..you say he has descended.

In Bhagavatam, Lord Krishna's leelas were described..a Leela is seen as a miracle for anyone who thinks any act defies the laws of nature. As I said we havent understood the mechanics of everything hence we call it a miracle.

He has 'descended' from where? Heaven? why? Because He does not like what is going on only with human beings? That is not wisdom. Why should He come down? We are told God is everywhere and here and now. So there is confusion in your understanding. The meaning Avatars means that every being you see is also an avatar. You and I are avatars. Cure to get past the confusion is to get the ideas right. It comes because of mistaken premise in interpreting that verse you quoted. Please do not ask me to educate you.. LOL

True..you cant educate me.
I havent closed my mind.


b. No one has created anything out of subtle materials except in the imagination of believers. It is called belief. No one can reason with a belief except to just leave the believers alone unless they try to talk 'reason' with their beliefs

Something that we cant figure out doesnt mean that its untrue...keep an open mind..there are many happenings in the universe that we havent figured out its path.
Once upon a time everyone thought that a fetus only comes to live in the 4th to 5th month when a a kick is felt but ultrasound proves that a fetus moves much earier even at 7 weeks you can see movement but its not big enough to be felt by the mother...so going by your logic you might not want to understand that cos you rather believe that NO! The mother didnt feel the movement! So the fetus did NOT move at 7 weeks except in your imagination.

Till the ultrasound was detected this fact was not known..so likewise till the we discover the mechanics of anything it doesnt mean its false.
I can't paint and draw ..that doesnt mean no one else can.


c. Good that you agree. But I thought Islam has but one (main) messenger and he is the last one. So again it does not square away with God sending men again and again. So it is your own brand of belief

Islam talks about 124,000 messengers(prophets included)..there is a difference between a messenger and a prophet..a prophet is a messenger but not all messengers are prophets.
The 124,000 messengers include those who were from other nations too and also Non Abrahamic tradition.
The main 10 are of the Abrahamic faith and Prophet Muhammad(صلى الله عليه وسلم) is the final Prophet.
In fact there is a Hadith that mentions about a dark colored Prophet called Kahan.Some feel it describes Krishna.
Prophet Muhammad declared, "There was a prophet of God in India who is dark in color and his name was Kahan." (History of Hamadan Dailmi Chapter Al-Kaaf)

d. I say all of us are avatars. I did not say Modi is an avatar only. But Dharma gets restored by someone acting like an instrument. Power & corruption can bring money, which can give more power and it is an endless cycle. But such cycles end. That is like Krishna appearing.

You dont need to think of human incarnation of God because every human has potential divinity. For that matter every being is divine. But Islamic faith does not accept animals having souls which may be the reason for confusion. Best is to drop those beliefs because they are not logical.

The word for self consciousness, soul and ego in Arabic is the same word Nafs.
An animal is described as not having nafs.

Choose the word that fits your thinking the best.

a)An animal has no nafs(self consciousness)
b) An Animal has no nafs( soul)
c)An animal has no nafs(ego)

My answer is C becos its instinct based.
See..how one word Nafs has so many meanings?

Anyway you have already come to the conclusion that there is no logic in some religions..so i dont see much scope to discuss further.


My logic was NOT that that everything gets back or not to factory setting. Please re-read what I wrote. I was only showing the absurdity of a God sending messengers by showing logically why it is absurd.

If its absurd to you..then its fine with me..I do agree to disagree.

 

[a-TB]

My answers in blue

a. Krishna is talked about as a miracle maker in Bhagavatham and other such scriptures. If you think Krishna is not a miracle producer that is sign of wisdom..
But ..you say he has descended.

In Bhagavatam, Lord Krishna's leelas were described..a Leela is seen as a miracle for anyone who thinks any act defies the laws of nature. As I said we havent understood the mechanics of everything hence we call it a miracle.

He has 'descended' from where? Heaven? why? Because He does not like what is going on only with human beings? That is not wisdom. Why should He come down? We are told God is everywhere and here and now. So there is confusion in your understanding. The meaning Avatars means that every being you see is also an avatar. You and I are avatars. Cure to get past the confusion is to get the ideas right. It comes because of mistaken premise in interpreting that verse you quoted. Please do not ask me to educate you.. LOL

True..you cant educate me.
I havent closed my mind.


b. No one has created anything out of subtle materials except in the imagination of believers. It is called belief. No one can reason with a belief except to just leave the believers alone unless they try to talk 'reason' with their beliefs

Something that we cant figure out doesnt mean that its untrue...keep an open mind..there are many happenings in the universe that we havent figured out its path.
Once upon a time everyone thought that a fetus only comes to live in the 4th to 5th month when a a kick is felt but ultrasound proves that a fetus moves much earier even at 7 weeks you can see movement but its not big enough to be felt by the mother...so going by your logic you might not want to understand that cos you rather believe that NO! The mother didnt feel the movement! So the fetus did NOT move at 7 weeks except in your imagination.

Till the ultrasound was detected this fact was not known..so likewise till the we discover the mechanics of anything it doesnt mean its false.
I can't paint and draw ..that doesnt mean no one else can.


c. Good that you agree. But I thought Islam has but one (main) messenger and he is the last one. So again it does not square away with God sending men again and again. So it is your own brand of belief

Islam talks about 124,000 messengers(prophets included)..there is a difference between a messenger and a prophet..a prophet is a messenger but not all messengers are prophets.
The 124,000 messengers include those who were from other nations too and also Non Abrahamic tradition.
The main 10 are of the Abrahamic faith and Prophet Muhammad(صلى الله عليه وسلم) is the final Prophet.
In fact there is a Hadith that mentions about a dark colored Prophet called Kahan.Some feel it describes Krishna.
Prophet Muhammad declared, "There was a prophet of God in India who is dark in color and his name was Kahan." (History of Hamadan Dailmi Chapter Al-Kaaf)

d. I say all of us are avatars. I did not say Modi is an avatar only. But Dharma gets restored by someone acting like an instrument. Power & corruption can bring money, which can give more power and it is an endless cycle. But such cycles end. That is like Krishna appearing.

You dont need to think of human incarnation of God because every human has potential divinity. For that matter every being is divine. But Islamic faith does not accept animals having souls which may be the reason for confusion. Best is to drop those beliefs because they are not logical.

The word for self consciousness, soul and ego in Arabic is the same word Nafs.
An animal is described as not having nafs.

Choose the word that fits your thinking the best.

a)An animal has no nafs(self consciousness)
b) An Animal has no nafs( soul)
c)An animal has no nafs(ego)

My answer is C becos its instinct based.
See..how one word Nafs has so many meanings?

Anyway you have already come to the conclusion that there is no logic in some religions..so i dont see much scope to discuss further.


My logic was NOT that that everything gets back or not to factory setting. Please re-read what I wrote. I was only showing the absurdity of a God sending messengers by showing logically why it is absurd.

If its absurd to you..then its fine with me..I do agree to disagree.

'
Items a, b ) Belief by definition is an acceptance that something exists or is true, especially one without proof.
My objection is not belief but trying to appear to pass off as reason.

In the instance of Godmen (and even the most famous of them all). there are direct witness accounts (of students for example) that offer a simple reason for the acts of magic. When a simpler explanation is offered supported by direct testimony, that is a better explanation than imagining that someone has powers to take subtle materials and make gross items.

Something that cant be figured out after best and consistent effort by a group of objective people is a different thing. But that is not what these Godmen do. They want you to believe that they have siddhi and the willing and superstitious people believe them. Such is life.

Item c) All the messengers (some being prophet) from past are described I am sure. But there is a declaration that God does not need to send a new Prophet and it would mean God cannot keep sending men to fix the people. Anyway strange set of beliefs from my point of view. Cant reason with beliefs. Let it be.

item d ) Facts and conclusions can be agreed or 'agreed to disagree' .. In the area of beliefs there is nothing to agree or disagree. All I can do is to respect the beliefs as beliefs and move on.

 

[jaythakar]

Brahman, it is said cannot be described in words nor can be imagined in mind. Seeking Brahman is just cliche expression without any real meaning.

For the one who does not understands or accepts scriptures, everything is cliche.

 

[sravna]

The seeming contradiction of maya being contradictory to the non dual reality can be resolved if maya also is understood as nothing but nirguna brahman. From nirguna brahman project two realities of saguna brahman and maya both differing in their role in the physical world. The two realities get conflated variously and responsible for all the varied differences in the physical world. The saguna brahman initiated essence tries to move towards a constant state whereas the maya initiated essence revels in rapid changes.

the game that has been set up is a hide and seek one, with the saguna brahman initiated essence in every soul trying to come out of the grip of the maya initiated essence and find nirguna brahman.

Maya keeps nirguna brahman away in a beguiling way.

In those who are materialistic, maya holds complete sway and so saguna brahman initiated essence is completed beguiled by maya but now maya actually does a double cross and takes them on an indirect path towards liberation . In those who are spiritual, maya still holds sway but leads them on a more direct path towards liberation.

the ultimate clash is set up between spiritual vs scientific, logical vs intuitive, intelligence vs power whatever you may call it.

I do not want to reveal the end. Let events unfold and the truth will be realized.

 

[jaythakar]

The seeming contradiction of maya being contradictory to the non dual reality can be resolved if maya also is understood as nothing but nirguna brahman. From nirguna brahman project two realities of saguna brahman and maya both differing in their role in the physical world. The two realities get conflated variously and responsible for all the varied differences in the physical world. The saguna brahman initiated essence tries to move towards a constant state whereas the maya initiated essence revels in rapid changes.

the game that has been set up is a hide and seek one, with the saguna brahman initiated essence in every soul trying to come out of the grip of the maya initiated essence and find nirguna brahman.

Maya keeps nirguna brahman away in a beguiling way.

In those who are materialistic, maya holds complete sway and so saguna brahman initiated essence is completed beguiled by maya but now maya actually does a double cross and takes them on an indirect path towards liberation . In those who are spiritual, maya still holds sway but leads them on a more direct path towards liberation.

the ultimate clash is set up between spiritual vs scientific, logical vs intuitive, intelligence vs power whatever you may call it.

I do not want to reveal the end. Let events unfold and the truth will be realized.

I think of Maya like an examination barrier. In order to qualify one has to pass the "test" of maya. It is like in order to be a proficient firefighter you have to fight the fire and learn technique to control it. So instead of developing a fear for Maya, just play along, but keep your ultimate goal of Brahman alive. Life is a journey, enjoy it!