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Aryan invasion confusion

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I am posting below a mail from N.Bala.N.Aiyer in another forum(iyer123.com) which contains views of Dayananda Saraswathi(Founder of Arya Samaj) relating to Aryan Invasion theory.

"From Bala.N.Aiyer

You must read this article [of Swami Dayananda - of Arya Samaj]
about Aryan and Dravidian ....

Bala N. Aiyer


Pioneering writings of Maharishi(Swami) Dayananda Saraswati (1824-1883) in exploding the myth of Aryan Invasion Theory. Breaking India - an eye opener book moving forward the unfinished Agenda of Swamiji.


Mr.Koenraad Elst has rightly observed that The Aryan Invasion Theory has been discarded long back but no university outside some Hindutva- teaches that the AIT is untrue. Despite serious attempts made in the last over 130 years beginning with Maharishi(Swami) Dayananda Saraswati and various scholars of Arya Samaj like, Sri Aurobindo, Dr.Fatah Singh and others to refute and forthrightly condemn AIT on logical grounds, no significant success seems to have been achieved in overturning this theory. Even the mighty voice of Swami Ramdevji which he raises against AIT from time to time seems to be falling on deaf ears. Mr.Rajiv Malhotra and Mr.Arvindan Neelakandan deserve full compliments for bringing out this timely and thunderous publication 'Breaking India' which moves forward the unfinished Agenda of Swami Dayananda Saraswati who gave a clarion call, "India: Know Thyself " in order to awaken Indians out of their deep slumber. The book in a way is a tribute to Swamiji's programme as it reinforces the ideas for which the founder of Arya Samaj stood for.


GENESIS OF ARYAN INVASION THEORY

According to Swami Vidyanand Saraswati(formerly Principal, Arya College Panipat and Fellow Punjab University), the Cambridge History of India was the first to propound the theory of Aryans coming to India from outside and the original inhabitants were Kols, Dravids, Bhils, etc. The migrant Aryans drove away the natives. To propagate this theory, centres were established in Banaras and Lahore. While Mr.T.H. Griffth was appointed Principal of Banaras College, Mr.A.C.Woolner was made Principal of Oriental College at Lahore. M.A. students of Sanskrit in these colleges were sent to Oxford on scholarship were later appointed on the faculty. Both the above colleges adopted the courses of studies prescribed by Oxford University and Vedic literature was presented in perverted form. Due to the endless repetition of the Aryan Invasion Theory, it has not only established firmly into the minds of a common man but also that of intelligentsia. I strongly feel that unless the academia, the elite class and the theo- politicians remove their western tainted glasses, AIT myth is going to prevail. So long as our Vedic scholars are not able to put the Vedic texts in their true perspective and interpret the figurative language of the Vedas as per guidelines set by ancient rishies (which were revived by Swami Dayananda Saraswati and others in recent times), we shall not be able to reverse the disinformation campaign pertaining to Aryan Invasion Theory.

WHO IS AN ARYA AND WHO IS A DASYU

Historically speaking, it was Swami Dayananda Saraswati in 1875 who for the first time challenged this Aryan Invasion Theory propounded by Western scholars. He wrote in Chapter VIII of his book Satyartha Prakasha "No Sanskrit work writes that the Aryas came from Iran and after defeating and driving out the aborigines became the rulers of this country. How can we then accept the statement of foreigners."According to Swami Dayananda, Aryas have great works of literature and records, greater and older than those of any ancient people. But no where it is mentioned that the Aryas are the victors of this country. Had it been so, then there is no reason as to why should they conceal their victory. On the authority of Manusmriti, Swamiji has given the geographical boundreis of Arya Vrat i.e,land of cultured people , it lies between boundries of Himalyas in the north and mountains called Vindhyas stretching right upto Rameshwaram in the South. As per Maharishi Manu, countries outside of Aryavrata are called Malechha desh. Swamiji in the above chapter on Cosmology while answering a question pertaining to number of classes(castes) which were there at the time of creation of the earth says in the beginning there was only one class of human beings. Later on they got divided into two depending upon their actions. Those who were learned and virtuous were called Aryas and ignorant and evil doers were called Dasyus.


Foreign Scholars' meagre knowledge Vedic- Sanskrit and their failure to follow the guidelines for interpretation of the Vedas

Without knowing the peculiarities of the Vedic Sanskrit language which is different from Classicial Sanskrit and without following the clues/guidelines prescribed by ancient Rishis for interpretation of the Vedic texts, the so called foreign scholars of Vedas (some of whom were hired by the Imperial Govt.) and their Indian Camp followers have interpreted the words Aryas and Dasyus as referring to different classes, castes or tribes. Swami Dayananda Saraswati was forthright in censuring Max Muller and his Sanskrit scholarship and he commented upon his misinterpretation of some of the Vedic hymns. Mr.Brahma Datt Bharti in his book 'Max Muller a lifelong Masquerade'(pub by EraBooks, New Delhi, 1992 Ed.) says "The Swami had likened Max Muller, so far as his knowledge of Vedic-Sanskrita was concerned, to that of a child who was still learning to walk." "In his book Satyartha Prakash he made such biting reference to Max Muller and his capacity and learning as a Sanskritist that it must have severely nettled the German scholar. " It is understood that Swami Dayananda also had correspondence with Max Muller who had initially propounded the Aryan Race theory. Later on Max Muller withdrew this theory and remarked that the term Arya referred to people speaking Aryan language.


Symbolic & Multiple meanings of Vedic terms (poetic expressions) not taken in right perspective by foreign scholars and their Indian camp followers

As mentioned above, the caste differences are often traced by some vested interests to the Vedas and the symbolic fight between gods and demons found in the Vedas is interpreted by them as fight between Aryans and Dravadians. The word Varna means to choose. Explaining this, Swami Dayananda said that it is not necessary that a man's varna corresponds with that of his parents. In practice, the varna is decided by the Acharya who knows very well the merit, actions, aptitude of his student. Varna has also a secondary meaning, i.e., color. The imperialist writers of the last century mainly because of their colour-psychology and racial outlook and being obsessed with the superiority of their race interpreted varna as colour and jumped upon the Aryan invasion theory. They haphazardly concluded that Varna distinction was due to colour and the white coloured Aryans introduced it when they conquered darker aborigines called Dasyus. (Incidentally as per ancient texts, Lord Rama, Lord Krishna, Chanakya and many others who were associated with Aryas were of darker hue).



Vedic Basis of Indus Culture



As per proponents of AIT, the Dasyus, and those Aryans who had mixed with the Dasyus and married them were called Shudras. It is really shocking that the above theory has been taken up blindly without ascertaining its truth. Swami Vidyanand Saraswati, and an eminent Vedic scholar says in his book 'Aryavarta - The original habitat of Aryans'(pub.by Vijaykumar Govindram Hasanand, New Delhi, 1996 Ed.) "The conflict between an Arya or a Dasyu , it is not beween two particular races or tribes, but between the law(dharma) - ABIDER and the law(dharma) BREAKER. To strive to sense such things in the Vedas would be our utter ignorance."In a paper 'The Veda: The Knowledge of the Universal Man'(Veda- Savita. January, 1983), Dr.Fateh Singh writes "The so called scientific interpretation of the Vedas failed to appreciate the traditional view that Vedic mantras are capable to multiplicity of meanings, corresponding to the universal, rational, sensory and physical levels of human self. This view was once universally known to the mankind. A characteristic example of the same may still be seen in the characters of Chinese writings where the same symbols can signify the Sun, the Light and the Knowledge at one and the same time. This is what we find everywhere in the symbolic expressions with which the Vedic texts appear before us". Dr.Fatah Singh who was able to decipher over 2500 indus seals concluded that Indus Valley Civilization was a Vedic Civilization and in 1969 for publishing his research, he was forced by the Govt.to either quit his post as Director, Rajasthan Oriental Research Institute or to withdraw his thesis. Dr.Fatah Singh immediately resigned from the Govt.post rather than backtracking.(Source: Vedvidya ka puner udhar by Dr.Fatah Singh, pub.by Ved Sansthan, New Delhi, 2004 Ed.)


Difference between Vedic Sanskrit and Classical Sanskrit



"There is a world of difference between the Vedic language which is also called Vedic Sanskrit and the Classical Sanskrit of the epics, Shastras and Kavyas, etc. Sometimes the meanings of the words have changed altogether".(Source: Vedic Sanskrit: Mother of All Languages by Swami Dharmananda Saraswati (Vidyamartand) 1979 Ed.). The term 'Gau' in Vedic Sanskrit may mean cow or earth, rays of sun, sense organs, speech, etc. The word Parvat means mountain, but also cloud. Vedic Agni has again various shades of meanings like fire, God, energy, etc. Svah in classical Sanskrit means heaven but in Vedic Sanskrit it may mean sun, sky, heaven, happiness. The words 'vritra' and asur are used in Classicial Sanskrit for the name of Rakshasa and Rakshasa in general but in the Vedic Lexicon, they are the names of cloud, the word Shachi is used in Classical Sanskrit for Indra's wife, while in the Vedic lexicon Nighantu, it is used for speech, wisdom and action. Therefore, for correct interpretation, it is important to refer to context of Ved Mantras which are poetic expressions in allegorical language and follow other guidelines and methodology as enunciated by ancient Rishies like Yaska's Nirukta, Panini's Ashtadhyayee, Patanjali's Mahabhashya, etc. Western scholars failed to understand the nuances of the Vedic language, e.g., Ralph T.H. Griffith in his note on the Rigvedic hymn (1-10-1) writes - "The dusky brood: The dark aborigines who opposed the Aryans." i.e,, the dark coloured aborigines who opposed Aryas are called Dasa or Dasyu. In order to prove the aborigines as dark-coloured he refers to the six mantras of Rigveda (1-101-1; 1-130-8; 2-20-7; 4-16-13; 6-47-21 and 7-5-3) in which the word Krishna has been used. As a matter of fact different types of colours are mentioned in these mantras and not human beings. Skandswami has interpreted Krishna-garbha as black clouds. That is why in the Vedas the so called leaders of Dasyus, Shambar, Chumuree, Dhumi, Varchin, etc are classified as different types of clouds. In many manras Indra is called Vritraha, i.e, killer of enemies. In the Vedas clouds are referred to as Vrittra and so the sun or lightening when it dispenses the clouds and causes rain is called Indra. Yaskacharya wrote five thousand years ago " This war like phenomena refers to rain. On account of lack of knowledge about the poetic description in the Vedas, the foreigners have distorted the meanings of the words" (Source: Original Home of the Aryans by Swami Vidyanand Saraswati, pub.by The Sarvadeshik Arya Pratinidhi Sabha, New Delhi 1987Ed).



Max Muller's Double Standards



It is quite improbable to expect from a hired scholar to remain intellectually honest. This is evident from a letter which Prof.Max Muller wrote to his wife in 1986 "I hope, I shall finish that work(translating the Rigveda). It(Veda) is the root of their religion and to show them what the root is, I feel sure, is the only way of uprooting all that has sprung up during the last three thousand years." And on 16th December, 1868 he wrote to the Duke of Argyll, the then Secretary of State for India - "The ancient religion of India is doomed, now if Christianity does not step in, whose fault will it be?"(Source: A Clue to understanding of the Vedas by Swami Vidyanand Saraswati, pub.by Vijay Kumar Govindram Hasanand, New Delhi, 1996 Ed.). From the above it is evident that complimenting the Vedic tradition and praising the spiritual knowledge of India by Max Muller in his later years in his book 'India, What Can it Teach Us?' was like blowing hot and cold with the same breath.

.

The Word Arya a Qualitative Term and Not a Racial Term, Historical Examples

The Vedas are indeed the voice of 'weal and welfare' meant for the psychic and physical efficiency, respectively connoted by 'Arya' and 'Shudra' words. No where in the Vedas do these words refer to any race or caste. "It is by conduct and behaviour that one becomes Arya and not by birth or wealth". This is the consistent view of Indian tradition, right from the Vedas down to the Smritis, Puranas and the great epics. The word Arya was a favourite term with Budha who called his 'Four Noble Truths' as 'Four Arya Saach'. Sri Aurobindo has remarked "The word Arya expresses a particular ethical and social order of well-governed life, courage, gentleness, purity, humanity, compassion, protection of the weak, liberty, observance of social duties, eagerness for knowledge, respect for the wise and the learned and the social accomplishment. There is no word in human speech that has a nobler history." (Arya, Vol.1, 1963)



Historical Evidences

The most significant thing about an Arya was that whenever anybody was found guilty of an unworthy act, he or she was invariably reprobated or repremended as anarya, i.e, one behaving in a manner unbecoming of an Arya. Rigveda 10--22-8 makes it clear that dasyu is one who remains engaged in evil deeds, such as , cruelty, falsehood and killing, is not willing to sacrifice for the sake of others, is devoid of rational thinking and one who does not observe discipline in life. In Rigveda mantra 6.22.10, Indra or king has been exhorted to make Dasyus as Aryas. Rigveda Mantra 9.63.5 enjoins that while you raise yourself spiritually by eradicating your evil qualities, at the same time make the entire world Arya (krunvanto vishvamaryam). If human beings are born Aryas and Dasyus, then how could they be made Aryas through reform. When Arjuna felt despondent and refused to fight, saying that he would rather live on alms than kill his kith and kin, Lord Krishna reprimanded him, saying that he was behaving like an anarya. - 'anaryajushtam' - Gita 2.2). When Kaikayi insisted on sending Rama into exile for fourteen years, Dasharath and later Valmiki too called her anarya (Ayodhya Kanda, 13.5;19.19). When Dushyant discarded Shakuntala, saying that he did not recognise her, the latter reproched him, saying that he was anarya. In Ramayana, Rama is called "Arya Sarvsamshaiva saddaiva priyadarshana" i.e, an Arya who looks on everyone alike and is ever pleasant looking. Mahatma Buddha has also used the word Arya for noble persons. He defined Arya in Dhamma in the following terms: "A person who kills living beings is not an Arya. Arya always entertains feeling of non-killing for all living beings." Prof.K.V. Paliwal in his book Untouchability Alien to Hindu Dharma, (pub by Hindu Writers Forum, Delhi, 2005 Ed.) while explaining the difference between Arya and Dasyu has given the example of Ravana who even though was born to Brahmarishi Pulstya of Arya Varna, but because of his misconduct was called rakshasa.


In the larger national interest, all well meaning Indians may make a beginning by discarding Aryan Invasion Theory lock, stock and barrel. It is the need of the hour to come out-of-the-box thinking, stop nursing the debunked and unfounded Aryan Invasion Theory, refrain from spreading the false notions of Aryan and Dravidian as separate races and present the Vedic tradition in its true perspective. I am sure that consistent and collective efforts made in his regard will go a long way in removing the misgivings and misconceptions and in convincing the judiciary that 'Bharat' is the Original Home of the Aryans. Else, politicans shall keep on making political mileage out of the artificial divide and imperial powers hostile to our country shall continue to fish in the troubled waters"

 
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Who is clinging on to the Aryan theory? The Tamil Brahmins. Again and again you repeat that we are Aryans. And then blame everybody else.

Who is so much bothered about being Aryans? Tamil Brahmins. No community in India is as much obsessed with being an Aryan and a North Indian as the Tamil Brahmins.

This obsession is reflected in many threads in this forum.

Why are we digging this up again and again in this forum?
 
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What we are NOT claiming

Now that enough heat has been generated, let me backtrack. What we are NOT claiming:

1. Brahmins are Aryans or Aryans are Brahmins. I think everybody is every race to some degree. Do you know that 20% of genes in Blacks in the US are of "White" origin?
2. Aryans are superior in any way. After all their closest modern day descendants are the Pakistanis and the Taliban.
3. The caste was system is/was good and not divisive and not designed for exploitation.
4. Claiming to be of Aryan descent or upper-caste gives somebody some God-given right. Just like claiming to be Chinese does not give somebody any special God given right.
5. Modern India is just a product of one or two races.
 
Human Migration, Sanskrit, Organized Religion and the Modern Indian

What I wrote earlier regarding Human Migration from Africa is a hypothesis synthesized by population geneticists, mitochondrial geneticists and anthropologists. Not by religious scholars who have different intent in writing about such matters, obviously.

1. Humans (Homo erectus, Neanderthals and Homo sapiens) evolved in Africa, near Kenya - a simple FACT. This original humans have high levels of melanin pigment in their skin (evolution created this to protect the organism living near the Equator from the deadly x-rays of the Sun). I call the genes for melanin as Wild Type (WT).

2. When humans migrated en mass towards Northern hemisphere, away from the Equator, the need for melanin was not there and there was need for Vitamin D. Therefore, the melanin genes were mutated to give different alleles (I call them MT). Over nearly 100,000 years of living in the northern hemisphere, humans lost most of the melanin (not all - this would be Albino).. This is what we see in most original people of Europe, Central and Northern Asia.

3. What was the scene in South Asia about 10,000 year ago? Even today, if you take people of aboriginal Australia, South India (in Kanyakumari District - the south most point of India) and Kenya, they will look very much alike... because of Human Migration from Africa to South Asia to Indonesia and to Australia.

People were dark skinned... you call them the Aborigines of South Asia or Dravidians or whatever your political slant is.... These people were flourishing well at the banks of perennial rivers like Indus, Ganges, Cauvery and so on.. Their civilization was at the zenith at the time of Indus Valley Civilization... they had a very opulent life style.

4. The steppe lands of Central Asia did not have flourishing villages and towns about 5000 years ago. The people there (all pale skinned for melanin) were nomads - comparatively impoverished... they wanted to migrate to a place where they can get better living via agriculture, diary and so on... they moved westward towards Germany or southward towards Afghanistan and India...

They met the people in Mehergarh, Harappa and Mohan Jedaro (spelling?); that's the place they wanted to be - their Promised Land - they fought tooth and nail to get a piece of the fertile lands... they came with an advantage: Horses and chariots... they were ruthless warriors...

The poor Aborigines could not stand up to the ruthlessness of the migrating nomads... Harappa and other cities fell. The dark skinned people were driven Southward... then South India became the land of the Aboriginal People of India.

5. The Immigrants came with their unique language Sanskrit... they brought Vedas... they formed the traditional Hinduism....and the life in the Sub-Continent was forever changed by the new People...

6. Now after about 5000 years, Indians are realizing that Vedas and Religions are not helping them to move forward in the post-industrialized world... they started not learning Sanskrit and Vedas... Sanskrit is nearly dead in India, except certain "religious scholars" stick to it for the sake of "the past glory"!

7. Right now, Organized Religion of the Land - Hinduism - is on a Massive Introspection: People ask what's REAL and what's a FICTION and FANTASY:

o) Do Gods look like Human Beings? Do they have feelings like Humans? Did Gods live in this planet flesh and blood?
a) Do the Gods expect Poojas all day everyday?
b) Can Gods be "bribed" by Poojas?
c) Is there a Heaven and Hell?
d) Is Ramayanam a fictional story weaved by the able and literate Valmiki?
e) What is Wisdom, Intelligence and Knowledge?
d) How many people authored Mahabharat? What's the real meaning of all these epic mythologies?

Modern Indians are trying to break open the Enigma - all put forth and controlled by the Priests and Vedic People! Lol

We are on the right track! Huffing and puffing to get the RIGHT answers... away from the dirty politics of the day!

Cheers.
 
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Lord Maculay's address to British Parliament (see attachment) is interesting. It's really sad that anything western is acceptable for persons with English education, they will never be able to appreciate good things of India.
PS.This is my last posting in this thread.

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Source: Face book.com--Ancient India Awakened.
 

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England - Lord Maculay - Wounded Civilization of India: An Open Inquiry

It's a historical fact that Europeans, including the Colonial British knew that the per capita GDP of India was far superior to their own up until 1700 AD by at least a factor of two: the Indian silk, teak, tedor, mahagony, sandalwood and the spices were the envy of the world...

That's why they all set out to find India... Portugese came, French came and British came and settled for nearly 300 years in a very inclement tropical climate.

In fact, the Italian Columbus got the grants from Queen Isabella of Spain to find India by a shorter route... and he ended up in finding the New World The Americas... and he called the Native Americans as Red Indians...

The same British colonized North America.. and they started taxing the American colonies even for tea..the same time when the East India Company usurped the power in India, when our Kings were fighting among themselves at the declining times of Mughal Empire.

Americans rebelled with pirtchforks and kitchen sinks and with a rag tag ill-equipped army, they waged a war against the well-oiled war machines of Britain, and the Indians gave up and surrendered while the Americans chased out the Red Coats!

This is the most defining moment in the history of America and India... the glorious Indian Civilization was wounded by the subjugation by the Red Coats, mostly BECAUSE of our spineless nature of the leadership - our Maha Rajas could be bribed easily by the Treasury of the Buckingham Palace! And, we could not see through the deceit and deception of the East India Company!

The rest was history... English became the language of international commerce and higher education.. Indians decided not to develop any of the Indian languages as the language of science and engineering and commerce, unlike the Chinese, Japanese, Germans and others.

The Britishers were very comfortable in the tropical climate of India because many of the upper caste people colluded with them in ruling India for about 300 years... they moved up in their Civil Service Ranks and they dominated the local under-class, all with the wink and nod of the Britishers.

Because India was already divided by the caste-ridden orthodoxy, the British found it easy to conquer and subjugate them for three centuries.

Well, so much water has moved under the bridge... now we have independent India for the past 64 years... What do we do now?

In spite of our poor politics of corruption, Tamil Nationalism and Dravidian Politics, TN has done very well in the near past:

We have V. Anand as the World Chess Champion, we have R. Venketraman as the Nobel Laureate and ARR Rahman as the double Oscar, Grammy and BAFTA winner. Clearly, we are doing fine in higher education, music, performing and visual arts...

The question is where are these people in West Bengal, UP, Maharastra, Bihar and other States? For a country of 1.2 billion people, India must produce lot more scientists, intellectuals, musicians, athletes and artists.

We must have several dozen Anands, Venketramans and AR Rahmans to knock the corridors of world power politics! Where are they?

It's not that English is the problem....I say, it's an asset.. if we wake up and see the world like the Americans do....Be smart and forward looking..

Cheers.
 
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Y,

you have said a lot about the capture of india by the europeans - the dutch, portuguese, french and finally the greatest of them all, the english.

the spanish, thanks to columbus and the pope, got south america. left out in all these were the germans, who were again small disparate states till bismarck came and formed a united germany in the mid 1850s and thus unleashed a dog of war, for most of its existence so far.

you might want to remember that the bulk of india was ruled by the nawabs with pockets of non islamic rule - sikhs and marathas and the vijayanagar empire of the deccan. even tamil nadu was effectively controlled by arcot nawabi till the borders of thanjavur, where the serfoji kings held sway, and further south, the nayaks, both of these too being of non tamil origin.

the indian rulers were tragic figures, victims of historic tiredness of the ruling cliques. it took 200 years, since aurangzeb's death for the mughals to formally decline and bahadur shah's exiling to burma (post 1857).

so, i think, it is not quite correct to say that caste ridden india fell prey to the europeans. the hindus have been out of power for close to a millenium in india, and were but passive observers of the hegemony fights first between the mussalmans, and later between the europeans & the musslamans. in fact, there was a strong movement among the muslims, to demand restoration of the ruling rights to the nawabs, when the british vacated india. but that did not go anywhere, due to the popularity of the congress.

it was more a tired muslim hegemony - the likes of siraj ud daulah who was no match for clive at plassey. the english ofcourse, had the hunger to win, and the reaction of the hindus was perhaps best summarized by an unknown hindu historian, on seeing the white officers with their laskar soldiers, thrashing the locals. to him, the 'people with right to rule' ie ஆளப்பிறந்தவன் have arrived.

also, much has been written about superior technology and firepower (we simply had no metallurgical skills to build heavy duty cannons) and vision.

i can best describe the feelings of weeping historians, at the loss of india to the british, with the words of boabdil's mother, when he handed the keys of alhambra to the spanish, before exiling himself to north africa, 'Thou dost weep like a woman for what thou couldst not defend as a man.". many of them just caved in, when they realized that the europeans could not be stopped. if one purely views these as moments in history, the european moment was ascending. :)

the one leader who could have stopped clive was siraj ud daulah, but reading the link below, explains why he did not even come close. a good leader, should be able to inspire his followers. clive did. siraj did not.

Siraj ud-Daulah - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
"so, i think, it is not quite correct to say that caste ridden india fell prey to the europeans. the hindus have been out of power for close to a millenium in india, and were but passive observers of the hegemony fights first between the mussalmans, and later between the europeans & the musslamans."

Dear K:

Yes, the Majority Hindus, the rank and file, were passive observers for a long time... the civil society was fragmented already by the caste-ridden religious practices, I believe and the leadership was crummy for nearly 1000 years - they gave up very very early on...

The average Indian did not have the "fire in the belly" to revolt and fight against ALL foreigners, including the Moghuls and the Britishers..

Siraj was considered by many as the First Freedom Fighter against the British! Unfortunately, many Kings around him were plotting to overthrow him and favored the British at the Battle of Plassey, which was the Beginning of the British Raj in India.

"it was more a tired muslim hegemony - the likes of siraj ud daulah who was no match for clive at plassey. the english ofcourse, had the hunger to win, and the reaction of the hindus was perhaps best summarized by an unknown hindu historian, on seeing the white officers with their laskar soldiers, thrashing the locals. to him, the 'people with right to rule' ie ஆளப்பிறந்தவன் have arrived. "

True, Hindus perhaps preferred the White English over the Musselman from Persia or Afghanistan!

Very sad... Indeed, the Indian Civilization had wounded knees, and she was in tears for a over 1000 years!

What did we learn after such pathetic history of passivity since 900 AD?

After the Independence we were cozy with the Communist Soviets for too long.. we did not even wake up when Paramount Leader Deng opened his Red China for Western Capitalism!

We were late by at least 15 years! In the mean time, with the visit of Nixon to the Forbidden City to kiss the rings of Chairman Mao, Red China became the manufacturing hub of America and Europe - consequently, their per capita GDP reached U$3500 while India's is languishing around U$1200!

Had India played a smarter global politics, we could have become the manufacturing center for the entire world!

Missed opportunity! Why didn't the largest Democracy and the oldest Democracy come closer before the Red Chinese?

Cheers.

Regards

Y
 
Y,

the way i understand it, the geographical nation state of india, came only with the declaration post 1857 mutiny, when victoria was crowned empress of india.

again, the word hind or hindustan was bandied about, mostly by afghans and central asian tribes, bent on getting their share of the supposed wealth of the sub continent.

the local fillip to the concept came with the founding of the indian national congress, in 1885, by the then genteel indian society along with reformist minded britons. it was inevitable to be radicalized with each generation till the 1930s when purna swaraj was made a goal.

i have always doubted the concept of untold wealth in india. yes, maybe there have been, but it was always concentrated on the ruling few. the merchants too may have been rich, but they were probably as keen to keep their wealth from the eyes of the rulers, just like their daughters. what the king saw, he had. n'est pas?

the common man's awareness of the indian nation state filtered rather slowly, in my opinion. for the muslims, sir syed ahmed khan founded, with british encouragement, the mohammedan anglo oriental college, aligarh, to develop muslim indian men, familiar with western civilization, so that they could too, be on par with the hindus from both north and south, who were increasingly dominating the british indian bureaucracy, and along with it, access to the ears of the phirengi, whom they could influence.

that the college later became aligarh muslim university, and later a hotbed for the founding of pakistan, is again, an inevitable development, considering the way, the indian society as a whole started thinking. ie in terms of nation states with full fledged franchise, and the victor being the majority to be voted in power. thus, i think, gave fear, to the horror thought, that the erstwhile rulers of vast tracts of india prior to europeans, would forever be reduced to vassals of their erstwhle subjects. it was the ulitmate revenge of the jizya!

i do not think, that it was the english ploy or plot, to divide the country. the partition was inevitable, just as burma, ceylon too separated from india at various points in time. even today, managing a country of 1.2B is a challenge, and as is shown, we have pockets of development, surrounded by vast areas of corruption and poverty. there exists bimarus in every state - for example southern tamil nadu.

whether we came as aryans from central asia to supplant the local dravidians or intermingle with them, to me, is a mute point. too many people have invaded, settled, mixed, mingled and become part of our DNA. i think, all of us, in some proportion or other, carrry doses of afghan, turkmen, portuguese, french and english elements in our DNA, inspite of the brahmin fanaticism towards gothrams and lineage.

there is no good or bad in this. it is just a fact, that i believe. it exists, whether we like it or deny it.

as a democrcacy, we have not done too badly. we have matured, into taking the democratic process for granted. even a brief foray into iron fisted rule by indira gandhi, did not last long. indian democracy has been a constant boiling cauldron, a vent for the frustration to rise to the top, and eventually topple whoever is in power. again i do not know if it is a good thing or not, for the newly elected, knows that he has only 5 years guaranteed to recover his investment election expenses and build a nest egg for the future.

re china: no one has praised china to the hilt like j.nehru in his glimpses of world history. his love and fascination for china almost equalled his love for kashmir. that the communist china did not reciprocate this feeling, came as a shock to him. we still do not know what happened in NEFA in 1961 except that we got a licking at the hands of the chinese troops.

since then, china has moved up in the world charts on both economic and political fronts. if chiina feels that india is a nuisance (we are and never will be on level with china for hegemony or influence), china can cleverly use our neighbours to give us immense headaches. as it is currently doing with build up of roads in pak occupied kashmir, and naval bases in sri lanka and b'desh.

i think our best bet, is to look inwards, and focus on our economic development and ensure a more equitable distribution of the newly created wealth. atleast in this latter area, we have a chance to do one better than china. :) .

this again thanks to our democratic system, and the keepers of our conscience aka medha or arundhathi or binayak. too bad, in tamil nadu we have yet to bear a noble soul of the same calibre. if it ever happens, and that is a BIG IF, chances are it will come from our tamil christian catholic minority, who have a more down to earth contact with the worse-off among us, and still have traces of idealism left. this i say, only from my personal experience, and growing up in an anglo indian/catholic neighbourhood.

thank you.
 
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Hello K:

Interesting perspective...

1. My view is the basic Indian society is/was largely fragmented like this -

Nearly 85% were the "common man", about 8-10% were "business class" about 5% were the priests and readers of Vedic scriptures who advised the Kings & the warrior class who made the rest of the society.. Common man was told time and again that God has created them with all the problems they have due to previous "Karma", thus no point in worrying about it, just follow what the upper-caste tells them.. and that's the way for salvation...This is precisely what I say "fragmented society by the religious practices".

2. Over and above this, the land was divided into many kingdoms, countries etc.. in fact, India could have been divided into at least 15 different political entities following the example of continental Europe... but, very early on Asoka the Great ruled vast part of the current India, Afghanistan, Pakistan and perhaps Burma and a part of Indo-China - I am not sure whether he came down to Madras! Likewise, some Cherans, Cholans and Pandians also ruled large part of India some time or the other....Yes, for many decades we remained as very highly fragmented land masses ruled by several dozen kings, who were jealous of one another and tried to invade or occupy other's lands....etc.. etc.

"whether we came as aryans from central asia to supplant the local dravidians or intermingle with them, to me, is a mute point. too many people have invaded, settled, mixed, mingled and become part of our DNA. i think, all of us, in some proportion or other, carrry doses of afghan, turkmen, portuguese, french and english elements in our DNA, inspite of the brahmin fanaticism towards gothrams and lineage.

there is no good or bad in this. it is just a fact, that i believe. it exists, whether we like it or deny it."


3. I wonder when in our history the upper-caste people started opposing vehemently the "inter-caste/religious" marriages given the basic facts as you very well said above?

Granted many lower-caste people, current Muslims and Christians also follow this lately.

4. Yes, yes, as a Democratic state, India has survived very well and has become one of the matured democracies in the world, comparing to Pakistan and China, our neighbors.

5. Chinese cultural revolution did something that India could not do... the rural China got some attention from the rulers/administrators - today, rural Chinese have much better basic health and education than the rural India.. this is the legacy of Chairman Mao - to achieve this he killed and buried several million urban elites and drove out the Koming Tong to the Formosa Island (the Taiwan)... and he outlawed all Organized Religions - perhaps that's his style of cleaning up the ancient feudal society of China.

This paved the way for Paramount Leader Deng Xa Peng to start his plunge into Western Capitalism in Red China and the rest is history - Red Chinese gallop economically and socially forward, although not politically. Many young Chinese are very happy with the economic progress... and they don't want Indian/American style democracy, because that creates "lot more unnecessary noise than any substantive progress in the society".

On the other hand, India neither had a chance to get involved in the Industrial Revolution of the West in 1700s -1900s, nor the Cultural Revolution of the Chinese... What we have is the same old civil structure.. it continues..

Organized Religions are ruling the masses...In spite of an army of Gods and Godmen, corruption and all anti-social activities (like child labor, prostitution, black money, dowry, rape and other forms of girl/women abuse etc etc) are rampant and increasing day by day...

Modern Indian is looking for a way out of this structural entrapments... he/she is crying out and asking aloud "Why is there no revolution in India... even Tunisian and Egyptian had their uprising last Spring... why are we not asking for a corruption-free society? why can't we get out of the chains of Organized Religions and their "Karmic Consequences" ?"

Changes will have to come sooner or later.... better sooner than later, hopefully.

Cheers.

Regards,

Y
 
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dear Y,

i will consider 'interesting perspective' as a neutral observation, though it could also be termed as a polite BS. atleast you are not throttling me :)

let me start off with karmic consequences. i really do not know how many indians are aware of karmic consequences, except as a manner of speech. honestly, i do not think, anyone (all religions) modify their behaviour in this earth, with a view to facing consequences in the next (except the jihadist who probably dream of the virgins awaiting them).

so, i think, i am really an offbeat goof, when it comes to the karmic theory. another reason, why i tend to keep off those threads, as i do not know much, and not interested in knowing any further. blissful ignorance, atleast appear to do me good, so far. ofcourse things can change, as i cannot predict my future behaviour :)

caste is a peculiarity of indian subcontinent. whoever thought of it, and implemented it, is probably an evil genius on par with hitler or gengiz khan or timurlane (he who razed delhi and killed estimated 100,000 hindus - the muslims he left behind, but took their wealth and daughters).

two people, can look alike, same or similar socio economic status, same food, and even same faith. but some inane concept called caste separates them, from the ultimate agreement of equality of two families or communities - caste.

i can understand difference of habits - primarily food. to me palghat food is essential to my mental happiness. thankfully the missus is also from there. without aviyal or thoran or molagoottal, my life would be incomplete.

but cooking can be learned. in today's world everything is there on the internet. i have lost count of times when self or the missus, rush to the web, to verify ingredients of a recipe, whether it be palghat, other tamil, north indian, italian or mexican.

as i basically believe, that an army, and also individual, marches on one's stomach, i have no rationale for the caste concept.

so, i think everyone who believes and practises castes is (in periyar's words) முட்டாள். but then it is only me, and i am of no consequence.

i think, caste will break down, like falling bricks, once the momentum begins. the very concept of urban living, groups us together into economic agraharams. if you can afford a 5 crore apartment, you move in there with other 5 crore affordables, who could be of any caste creed or language. the children would socialize and go to the same expensive tennis lessons or private schools. right? i was brought up in santhome chennai, and went to catholic schools - my attitude was formed by those environments than anything that my dad or mom told me at home. which was nothing by the way.

if we are to believe PC is right, 55% of indian population will be urbanized in the next few decades. and that is a lot of intermingling of castes. so increasingly the power of hormones will override the power of caste, i think. once the initial resistance is broken, in every family, the next ones will have increasingly less objections.

this is what has happened in my family - not that we are great reformers, but like any international tambrams, we are experiencing IC IR marriages in large numbers, all abroad and many in india. so it goes. i cannot believe the clock will turn back. that type of religious reactionism, i am sure, will not happen in a multilingual multireligious vast india. india is too big and heterogeneous, for any concerted movement to the left or right. we will continue to move in all directions.

china's cultural revolution has been uniformly agreed upon as a big and disastrous failure. same as mao's idea of 'backyard furnances'. in any other country, mao would have been deemed mad. except china. i visited beijing, a few years back, in the middle of an extreme winter. i stood in line for an hour to see mao and being a foreigner could linger a few more minutes before his sarcophagus. the chinese venerate him, with flowers, incense and what not. whereas in neighbouring russia, lenin's body is now rotten and stalin consigned to garbage.

mao's little red book and the screaming teenagers, killed millions, caused untold misery and set back the country by a generation. surprisingly the CC is not talked about even in now liberal china. or by the chinese outside of china. it is a shame and like all asian cultures, we hide our shames :(

i know many chinese people in toronto. everyone agrees with the current form of government - as these are all han chinese. nobody talks of freedom, but only economic progress. the most often heard excuse is, 'feeding one billion people is an immense task'.

we do not hear such words from indians. i think it is good, because feeding of the people, is, in india a personal thing and much diffused from a governmental policy. with certain targeted subsisidies and with big investments in conserving food, we can make it past starvation. i think we 'waste' food through rot and rats more than all the rest of the world put together.

with increased education, and prosperity, organized religion will eventually, i think, lose its stranglehold. it is an 'indian' thing to identify oneself by religion and caste. about 75 years ago, the usa or europe was not too far from this type of attitude. the world war 2 and the decolonization processes across the world, became a leveller of sorts. the usa civil rights movement further levelled the society and the generations born and brought up post 1960s have a new attitude towards race - not all of them may be liberal, but compared to their parents, they are more willing to accept that a black american or coloured folks are humans too. which was not the case upto late 1950s.

in india too, the increasing urbanization, the quota system and the overall increase in prosperity, i think, will cause caste to wither away. it won't disappear overnight, but gradually the hateful things associated with caste, wont matter any more. how long before this happens - 50 years or so. i will be gone by then, but my children may find an india worth re-immigrating to.

if tamil nadu is taken as an example, our attitudes towards caste has changed for the better. even the most diehard in this forum, is willing to accept the notion of universal education and suffrage. something that his great grandfather would find ludicrous. we have moved in the right direction. we have not reached the goals, but we can start measuring the end.

jai hind.
 
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1. How many Indians really believe in "Karmic Consequences"?

If you hear sayings like "En Thalaiyelluthu to live so poor like this... yellam naan seitha Karumam aiya, what can be done now?".. I believe a vast majority of the "common man" says this many times every day.

2. "i think, caste will break down, like falling bricks, once the momentum begins. the very concept of urban living, groups us together into economic agraharams. if you can afford a 5 crore apartment, you move in there with other 5 crore affordables, who could be of any caste creed or language. the children would socialize and go to the same expensive tennis lessons or private schools. right? i was brought up in santhome chennai, and went to catholic schools - my attitude was formed by those environments than anything that my dad or mom told me at home. which was nothing by the way."


Well.. how many people live in Rs 5 Crore apartments?

I was reading a political cartoon in Dinamani a few weeks ago - the author (Mathi) was informing the readers as to how Raja and Kalmadi are living inside the Tihar Jail at New Delhi.. what foods are provided in the morning, at lunch and dinner.... I calculated the cost of it per day... it came to about Rs. 150 per day (U$ 3.4 dollars a day)... pathetically Mathi said, "We don't have this life style for nearly 3/4 of the people outside Tihar"...

This says it all..vast majority of the Indians subsist under U$ 3.5 a day! How do you expect them to live in Rs. 5 Crore Apartments, Dear K?

3."china's cultural revolution has been uniformly agreed upon as a big and disastrous failure. same as mao's idea of 'backyard furnances'. in any other country, mao would have been deemed mad. except china. i visited beijing, a few years back, in the middle of an extreme winter. i stood in line for an hour to see mao and being a foreigner could linger a few more minutes before his sarcophagus. the chinese venerate him, with flowers, incense and what not. whereas in neighbouring russia, lenin's body is now rotten and stalin consigned to garbage."

Yes, most outsiders think what Mao did was vile and venal, and he was a mass murderer of his own people..I used to foam in hatred when talking about him as a man and leader... Alas, when I think back the final "good" he did to his people knowingly or unknowingly, he totally dismantled the old feudal system of the most populous country in the world, outlawed all Organized Religions and brought basic healthcare and education to the dark corners - the backwaters of rural China - a humongous achievement unthinkable in India - the most ancient Civilization under the Sun...

Many Indians compare themselves to the USA. That's very wrong.. I say they must first compare themselves with the roaring China... about 30 years ago, the per capita GDP was very similar at about U$800 a year between India and China... and now they are far far ahead.. U$ 1200 Vs U$ 3500.. how did this happen? Better execution of smarter policies and politics!

Indians just can't ignore China any longer... the prosperous China can any day invade India and grab as much land as they want, as they did in Ladak and other parts in Kashmir.

4."with increased education, and prosperity, organized religion will eventually, i think, lose its stranglehold. it is an 'indian' thing to identify oneself by religion and caste."

I really hope so.

5."if tamil nadu is taken as an example, our attitudes towards caste has changed for the better. even the most diehard in this forum, is willing to accept the notion of universal education and suffrage. something that his great grandfather would find ludicrous. we have moved in the right direction. we have not reached the goals, but we can start measuring the end."

I really hope so, Dear K.

Regards

Y

ps. I wish our readers in India (from Chennai, B'lore, Trichi, Madurai etc etc) chime on these issues... rather than two emigrated Indians in Toronto and Houston blather about such matters all day every day! lol.
 
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I have my own doubts about point no.4 & 5 of Shri.Kunjuppu's post to which Shri.Yamaka has agreed.As one who has spent 75 years in India
(I have toured extensively in most parts of North India,& Andhra but not Tamilnadu,Kerala,& Karnataka where I have visited some specific places)
I think that this menace of Caste Superiority and Caste differences are not likely to go away in the near future.Even assuming that this evil
goes in INDIA among HINDUS,persons who have changed their FAITH from Hinduism has taken with them these prejudices.
Some one had pointed out recently in one thread how such prejudices are still prevalent in UP,India quoting from a book written by a gentleman following
Islamic Faith.
I have some Hindu friends from Singapore and Malaysia in Face Book.They are very happy to have pseudo names like 'Mariamman Koil',
'Subramania Swami Koil' and mostly they write about Saivism.
I had a young software engineer from Bangla desh who started preaching me about his Faith and I politely told him that I am not interested.
Poor Fellow! He was disappointed and stopped writing on my Wall.
Even in USA(California),I find Hindus go to specific temples only(presumably according to their caste/subcaste) and not all temples.Every community(though belonging to one Faith) prefer to construct the temple of their State/God and frequent only those places.
Sometime back,I read a news item in 'Dinamalar" about 'Chandana Village' in Agra Dt,UP,India that roughly 50% of the population changed their faith to 'Islam' some 700 years before,but perfect peace prevails in the village where IR marriages take place and all are blood related.
Efforts from outside to disturb the peace in the village atmosphere have not been successful till date.Unfortunately Indian National news papers,
TV channels do not highlight such positive news.

.
 
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"Sometime back,I read a news item in 'Dinamalar" about 'Chandana Village' in Agra Dt,UP,India that roughly 50% of the population changed their faith to 'Islam' some 700 years before,but perfect peace prevails in the village where IR marriages take place and all are blood related.
Efforts from outside to disturb the peace in the village atmosphere have not been successful till date.Unfortunately Indian National news papers,
TV channels do not highlight such positive news."


Dear Krish Sir:

This is a heart warming news to me - another IR guy: I am not a TB, but married a "sweet and smart Tamil Brahmin girl"!

LOL.

Cheers.
 
Quite Interesting twists and turns in your informations. Healthy debate good. but we make usre we live in h armony, without prejudice with love and affection irrespective of castes, religion, race. etc.

cheers!!!
 
BK,

the bast#$%s in nytimes have made it now available only through subscriptions. another excellent source of update to today's world is now lost except to the rich.

BK, re your observation about the permanency of caste in india, is well taken. but dear BK, does not our country have a knack for producing wonders? who would have thought that we would be self sufficient in food, in mid 1960s? who would have thought that we would have an IT revolution in the mid 1980s?

who would have thought that we would have the second largest number of telephones in the world in 1990s?

things change. and they change rapidly within a generation. for instance one generation of educated woman, and the next generation, family size tumbles to two or less.

one IC marriage in a family opens up the door to more. i am following on a couple of interseting situations in my own family now. the fathers are old type dictators, who have announced right on top of the hill tops, that they will not tolerate any IC or IR marriages for their children. tambrams in laws or nothing.

a while back, on query from my kids, one of the child said that it would never do IC marriage because of fear of dad. two days ago,we spoke to the mother, and we hear something brewing. knowing where these people live, there are few tambrams, and so not sure what the caste or religion or race of the paramour is. the mother does not know, but we will see.

so, BK, the only certainty in life is change. india is changing faster than the west. i am amazed each time i visit, which is every year. :)

BK, unfortunately, i think, you are correct re hindus in the usa carrying over their baggage. it is only the immigrant generation though. the children do not care.

recently, i read, that there was nastiness in a temple in the east coast, where the trouble again cropped up between tambrams and NBs. can you believe such stupidity?

in toronto, there is the big ganesa temple, started by tambrams but built by the labour of sri lankan tamils, who now form 99% of the congregation. i still go there, but most tambrams have taken their business elsewhere, to a new sringeri temple. idiots!
 
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Y,

Yes, the Indian multitiudes invoke fate for just about everything that goes wrong. But do you think that these know anything further about karma. I think it is more a word of expression than any deep held belief in karma.

I have found, the more anyone looks into these things, there is more confusion. And more quarrel, because someone else pops up to deny it. Look at how long the heated discussions going on about ‘advaita’, here in this very forum. All these members are erudite to the hilt, and I have respect immense for all of them. they talk in tongues that I do not follow, and boy am I glad that I am ignorant!!

I think, we Indians have strong tribal loyalties, which we have carefully nurtured over the millenniums, through caste and arranged marriages.

There are undeniable changes happening on the social scene. We have the largest percentage of girl students in the medical and engineering profession. Perhaps only the old ussr had such high percentage. All these girls, once they get the hang of things, start asserting themselves. And I think, that drives the change.

For some, any change is a change too fast. For others, like me, it is not fast enough. The reality, probably, is somewhere in between.

and to me aryan invasion is pazhankathai. really pazham. :) of no consequence to today's living.
 
"BK, unfortunately, i think, you are correct re hindus in the usa carrying over their baggage. it is only the immigrant generation though. the children do not care."

Very true, K:

Last weekend, my daughter had her Medical School Graduation in TX.. it was a very joyous moment .. a rite of passage.. we met all her friends and families... all were in such a happy mood.

Alas, there was a single Indian woman from Andra Pradesh with two daughters one with MD and another with MD MBA! My wife talked to her and was wondering what happened to her husband, let me call him Mr. R? On further snooping around here is the story -

Mr. R is a very strict Brahmin; he wanted to raise the girls (no boys for them) in a traditional Hindu way.. up until the girls were 18, they just obeyed the Man of the House - once going to college they rebelled and there broke a war between the Dad and the Daughters... the Dad walked away, leaving the family...Mrs. R, although herself very religious she couldn't just leave the daughters! She stuck with the daughters, and she goes where ever girls go!

To me, the girls are typical "Sweet and Smart Brahmin girls"! They are quite knowledgeable about the world around them... but their Dad does not like them for being so smart and worldly! His complaint is "they are not religious, following the Hindu Dharma".

So much is the audacity of a religious Indian Dad in USA! Who is the loser here? Not the girls...

Cheers.

ps. Yes, Aryan Invasion IS a pazhaya kadhai.... but for some it has legs to walk.....Lol
 
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Chee, you made us look at a nude photo of John Abraham. We should have you censured by the moderator! :p

But the actual content of the article is quite interesting.
 
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Chee, you made us look at a nude photo of John Abraham. We should have you censured by the moderator! :p

But the actual content of the article is quite interesting.

Dear Biswa,

Sorry....next time I will look for one article with Bipasha Basu in it...hehehehe
 
"BK, unfortunately, i think, you are correct re hindus in the usa carrying over their baggage. it is only the immigrant generation though. the children do not care."

Very true, K:

Last weekend, my daughter had her Medical School Graduation in TX.. it was a very joyous moment .. a rite of passage.. we met all her friends and families... all were in such a happy mood.

Alas, there was a single Indian woman from Andra Pradesh with two daughters one with MD and another with MD MBA! My wife talked to her and was wondering what happened to her husband, let me call him Mr. R? On further snooping around here is the story -

Mr. R is a very strict Brahmin; he wanted to raise the girls (no boys for them) in a traditional Hindu way.. up until the girls were 18, they just obeyed the Man of the House - once going to college they rebelled and there broke a war between the Dad and the Daughters... the Dad walked away, leaving the family...Mrs. R, although herself very religious she couldn't just leave the daughters! She stuck with the daughters, and she goes where ever girls go!

To me, the girls are typical "Sweet and Smart Brahmin girls"! They are quite knowledgeable about the world around them... but their Dad does not like them for being so smart and worldly! His complaint is "they are not religious, following the Hindu Dharma".

So much is the audacity of a religious Indian Dad in USA! Who is the loser here? Not the girls...

Cheers.

ps. Yes, Aryan Invasion IS a pazhaya kadhai.... but for some it has legs to walk.....Lol

Shri Yamaka sir,

I feel proud of that Mr. R. I don't know if he is a brahmin; whether brahmin or non-brahmin, IMO it is people with such firm convictions who alone will be able to do some good for our Tamil Brahmin community, for which this forum exists.
 
Shri Yamaka sir,

I feel proud of that Mr. R. I don't know if he is a brahmin; whether brahmin or non-brahmin, IMO it is people with such firm convictions who alone will be able to do some good for our Tamil Brahmin community, for which this forum exists.

let me repeat once more sarma. please read the mission statement and guidleines of this forum.

this forum eixists for all people, and has an ecletic view of the world. i think as long as there is no offensive posts written against the brahmins, we are ok. that is why we have the moderator.

but, i detect a strain of exclusivity and feeling of being hurt as a community. this is coming out in all your posts.

i think the world is not as black and white as you might think. atleast that is the impression that i get from all your posts.

fyi, we have members here, who are other than brahmins. they are welcome and they are indeed as valuable a member of this forum community as you or me. hope this explains.

thank you.
 
Shri Yamaka sir,

I feel proud of that Mr. R. I don't know if he is a brahmin; whether brahmin or non-brahmin, IMO it is people with such firm convictions who alone will be able to do some good for our Tamil Brahmin community, for which this forum exists.

Sarma Sir:

As I said Mr. R is a very strict Brahmin: In his bloated ego he wanted to control the lives of his daughters, who rebelled, for they want to live their lives as per their wishes...

If you like Mr. R, fine... that's your opinion, your choice! I hope your kids also like it....

I sympathize with the girls, and I totally reject your assertion "it is people with such firm convictions who alone will be able to do some good for our Tamil Brahmin community.."

As adults, our kids MUST live their lives according to their view of the world....not anybody else'!

After age 18, my kids became my friends...I suggest a few things... if they like they take it, if not they flatly refuse and explain why they refuse to toe my lines!

That's exactly what I want them to do....

Cheers.
 
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