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Aryan invasion confusion

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continuation of my old post - Persians and Medes

The Persians, however retained a number of non-Aryan customs:

* The Medes disposed off their dead by tying them to the top of Towers of Silence to feed birds of prey. According to them, burial and cremation were considered sacrilege as they defiled the earth and fire respectively. However, the Achaemenid kings built tombs and buried their dead. It was not until the 3rd century AD, that the Persian kings adopted the Median custom of building towers of silence for the royalty.

* The hereditary Zoroastrian high-priests of Persia hailed from a tribe called "Magus" or "Mogus" (pl. Magi, New Persian: Mobed) of Media (the ancient Greeks believed that these Magus had supernatural powers. Gradually, the word Magus gave rise to the English words "magic" and "magician"). However, there were always people in Persia who resented the exclusive rights and privileges these Magus possessed. The Magus prayed in the open and were against building closed enclosures for their Gods. Hence, the Magian Gaumata who became king after the death of Cambyses I, destroyed most of Zoroastrian and Egyptian temples. When Darius the Great defeated and conquered the kingdom, he rebuilt most of the temples which Gaumata had destroyed as a symbol of defiance against the Magi. (probably the first ever manifestation of anti-Brahmin sentiments)

The conflict between the Persians and the Magus became a conflict between religion and the state and the king and the high-priest and continued for centuries. The Iranian Revolution and the rise of Ayatollah Khomeini might be seen as the culmination of this conflict.
 
Then why so many Indians work in Middle East now? Its barren,dessert land only.

The Middle East might have been dry and barren a hundred years back but it is not a barren land anymore. It is now prosperous and flourishing thanks to its rich mineral wealth. But 3000 years back, there were no motor vehicles and hence, there was no use for oil. Which probably explains the Islamic invasions of Iran and India.
 

Raghy

Well-known member
Dear Raghy, such beliefs do not offend me. However, IMO, these beliefs promote superstitions and create a general social environment in which unscrupulous godmen and godwomen thrive. Therefore, I think eradicating such beliefs is good for the well-being of the society.

I don't know what you consider "egging on", the relevant exchanges do not seem to indicate anything like that.

Cheers!

Dear Sri.Nara, Greetings.

Beliefs don't promote supersitions. Then again, one may argue, a belief itself is a supersition; such arguments may be quite valid too. Let me explain.... I used to be a Sundran Kanda Parayani. When I started that, inspite of holding a trade, I was in poverty...something was not clicking. After starting that Paarayanam, something seem to have clicked.... the graph is only going up, the slope is a staedy 45 to 55 degrees, upwards. (Don't know when I would crash though). However, I never sougt any God Persons guidance at any point in my life. Whatever is good for me, should be good for others too, I suppose.

About 'egging', thanks for your point of view. I presented my reasons. If there is no 'egging', I am happy. Thanks.

Cheers!
 

Raghy

Well-known member
Sri.Yamaka Sir said -

2. I am not "egging the forum"!

It's possible that if a different opinion is expressed some people may feel "egged"... in any case I did not say anything to "egg the FORUM".

Dear Sri.Yamaka Sir, Greetings.

I take the quoted message as " I did not mean to egg the forum" and let my grivences to rest at that. Thank you.

Still I am astounded that you interpreted THAT verse (post # 111) to suit in very many occasions without even knowing the context and Sanskrit!

That was an interesting piece of writing....!

It is not finished yet. More to come. I shall address this in a seperate post, please. Thanks.

Cheers!
 

Raghy

Well-known member
[FONT=&quot]Respectable members, Greetings.

This post is the continuation to post #117, in this thread.

That is whole; this is whole;
From that whole this whole came;
From that whole, this whole removed,
What remains is whole.

I thank Sri.TKS for posting this phrase and thank Sri.Yamaka for highlighting that fascinating phrase. Thanks guys!

The pleasures enjoyed by one is identified in Tamizh as
[/FONT]சிற்றின்பம்[FONT=&quot] & [/FONT]பேரின்பம்[FONT=&quot]. [/FONT]சிற்றின்பம்[FONT=&quot] denotes the gratification of self for physical and psychological satisfactions where as [/FONT]பேரின்பம்[FONT=&quot] is selfless gratifications. [/FONT]பேரின்பம்[FONT=&quot] is considered more as 'a spiritual pleasure'. In all the moral books and literatures, [/FONT]பேரின்பம்[FONT=&quot] is given importance; many Gurus and scholars have composed many works in many languages. The way to attain [/FONT]பேரின்பம்[FONT=&quot] is known as [/FONT]பேரின்பம்அடையும்மார்க்கம[FONT=&quot]; we have numerable literature addressing just this. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]When I read that phrase for the first time, the way I saw it was... 'that' was an universal set 'A' containing infinite number of subsets 'B'. B is an evolving set which becomes a complete set at one stage, still stays as an element of A. As a set, B also contains many developing/evolving elements. When B becomes a complete set, it becomes 'this whole'. Initial elements in B are all the gratifications along with love and compassion. When the elements gets fulfiled one by one, only love and compassion remains. For example, our craze for playing cricket slowly gets satisfied by playing the game, reading about the game, watching the game and at one stage, cricket takes the back-burner and fades away. Desires for food, desire for sex and desires for fame and power etc also fade away at some stage. At that stage, B becomes complete. Only love and compassion gets accepted by B and B gives out only love and compassion.
[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]That passage was applied with reference to physical gratifications in the example of 'buffet meals'. The same passage was applied with reference to the 'path to spiritual gratifications' with the example of 'love and compassion'.[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]Now to the last bit, please. Kindly consider the Universal set A as 'Paramatma' containing infinite number elements; the elements are Subset B in various stages of development. The elements of B are elements of physical gratifications such as gratification of physical and psychological senses, love and compassion towards others. Until the physical gratifications are complete, B may be busy with self gratifications, may not use the full potential to show love andcompassion. When the physical gratifications are completed, B spends all its energy to show love and compassion to others and receive only love and compassion; at that stage B does not value physical gratifications anymore since it has 'seen it all already'. At that stage, B is 'this whole'.
[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]Universal set containing infinite elements is Parramatma. Each element set B is Jeevatma. That passage considers a completed Jeevatma only; other Jeevatmas are still evoloving, but still part of Paramatma. Now applying this to the same passage,[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]Paramatma is always 'that whole' containing all the jeevatmas. When the jeevatma gets over the physical gratifications, showers only love and compassion, it becomes 'this whole'.[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]This jeevatma taken into consideration came from Paramatma.[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]'From that whole this whole removed' is interesting. When B becomes 'this whole', it's evolution is complete. B does not have any gratification to fulfil. It will not be aggressive anymore; it will not seek opportunities. It would dissolve in the greater set A.[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]What remains is still the universal set A. Paramatma remains.[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]Cheers!
[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
 

valli

New member
Dear Shri Raghy

Once again you have interpreted it beautifully! The following interpretation came to my simple mind (please bear with me if it sounds too silly!).

That is whole; this is whole; - The mother is whole and the baby is whole
From that whole this whole came - The baby came from the mother
From that whole this whole removed - The baby was removed from the mother
What remains is whole. - The baby is a whole NOW!

Regards
 

Raghy

Well-known member
Sowbagayavathy Dear Valli, Greetings.

Thank you. Your interpretation is vey nice, based from from a different angle. You have focused on 'this whole'. That is brilliant indeed. This is quite enlightening. Prakriti is the mother nature. everything is the child of nature. Thanks for this nice interpretation.

Cheers!
 

Yamaka

New member
That Whole and This Whole - For a Non-Believer

Dear Shri Raghy

Once again you have interpreted it beautifully! The following interpretation came to my simple mind (please bear with me if it sounds too silly!).

That is whole; this is whole; - The mother is whole and the baby is whole
From that whole this whole came - The baby came from the mother
From that whole this whole removed - The baby was removed from the mother
What remains is whole. - The baby is a whole NOW!

Regards

Bernie Madoff is a known convicted criminal, who defrauded investors to the tune of about U$20 billions. He is a practicing Jew... had he read this Sanskrit verse...

That whole = Investors' money This whole = His personal life style.
From that whole, this whole came
From that whole, this whole removed
What remains is a whole = Fraudulent behavior !

I am astounded to learn that this verse can be interpreted million different ways, depending on the beliefs, experiences of the interpreter...

I thought such versus in Sanskrit are crystal clear in conveying the ideas of the writer! Maybe, I am wrong....Lol
 

Yamaka

New member
Human Migration From Africa.... and the ARRIVAL OF IMMIGRANTS FROM THE NORTH: An OPEN INQUIRY


Hello Happyhindu:

I read your response in the other Thread ("Who Is a Brahmin?") on this topic.

You have many valid points, for which I don't know the answers now.. however, here is my Working Hypothesis:

1. Human evolution to the level of Homo sapiens from Homo erectus and the proto-human ancestors all happened at the Great Rift Valley of Africa (present areas around Lake Victoria). The melanin content is very high in their skins here.

2. For some reasons, these humans started migrating from Africa either thru the Northern Route via Egypt to Palestine towards Europe and Asia or thru Southern Route via Yeman, Omen to Persia to India and towards Australia.

Some of the Migrants stayed and flourished in India - these people are the dark-skinned people with high melanin content (I call them the Original People of India, may be same as the "Dravidians" in nomenclature)

When did this happen? Probably about 100,000 to 150,000 years ago... the exact time is a point of contention among scientists of anthropology, human geneticists etc.

3. The Migrants in the North (who came via the Northern Route) lost most of their melanin pigments, which was not necessary for them (because they were far away from the Equator where the Sun's intensity is the most) and there is a need for Sun light penetration to make Vit D in the colder climate. Hence these people looked "White" or lighter color with very low melanin pigment after staying there for about 100,000 years. Their genes for melanin was mutated.

4. These Northerners started migrating towards South. A wave of people from the steppe lands of Central Asia (presently Kazakshtan to Turkmanistan, I believe) started moving towards Europe and towards India. The people coming to India were the Immigrants (aka "the Aryans").

When did this happen? Not sure...but could be about 5000 years ago (3000 BCE). Probably, these nomadic people fought tooth and nail to get a foothold in the lush lands of Indus and Ganges, grabbing lands from the Original People, the Dravidians: hence, they destroyed the glorious Civilizations of Indus Valley... this is just a speculation. Or these Civilizations died on their own just before the arrival of the Immigrants... nobody knows for sure.

5. After initial wars, the new Immigrants and the Original Peoples started inter-marrying and producing progenies of "brown people" with different color hues in India.

6. Most probably, SOME of the Immigrants (Aryans) started writing the Vedas and thus the "Hinduism" got started with all its glory and confusion, IMO...most probably, these people started the Caste System to manage the Society according to professions. But these Caste System created untold suffering to the people in the lower category and great people like Mahavir and Buddha started condemning it.. hence the followers of these people started different religions, again to manage and dominate the Society.

All Man-Made Religions, and Gods... (and Man can also clone himself using his awesome knowledge to understand Nature).

Granted, there will be lots of exceptions to what I said here...anyway, I will try to accommodate all the anomalies into my Working Hypothesis, as and when I get satisfactory answers.

Cheers.

Regards

Y

ps. You can take people from Kanyakumari to live in Kashmir for 10-20 years; after 20 years, they will be distinctly different from other Kashmiris living there... this shows that genetic mutations take in the order of 50,000 to 100,000 years to show off in the phenotype. That is, relative short term climatic changes don't matter as far as "permanent" melanin pigment concentration is concerned. Cheers.
 

B.Krishnamurthy

Active member
Humanity perishes on earth after every Yuga pralaya. In every Mahayuga SaptaRishis propagate Vedic Dharma at the start of KritaYuga.Dharma means not only righteousness but indicates the essential nature of anything without which it cannot retain its independent existence.Dharma diminishes by a quarter after each Yuga and in present Kaliyuga started in 3102 BC the process starts with 3/4 ths of Dharma lost & will deteriorate further. In the present 7 th Manvantara Vaivaswata Manu started the Human race again with the help of NavaBrahmas.By this time the Pacific & Atlantic oceans were formed submerging the previously existing land. About 50 million years ago the land mass between Africa & India became the Arabian sea. & Southern Bharat upto 8 degree latitude north of the equator which was part of Lemuria sank into ocean. so also Atlantis Bhadrasva,Ilavrita & Ketumula varshas disappeared. All that was left in Pacific ocean were some islands. I In view of the enormous time scale involved even in this Manvantara,the Aryans who diffused to several parts of the earth developed different features & qualities due to the influence of a variety of climates,times & environments,& as a result were divided into the so called different races. The Rigveda pronounces that the first Manu as Aryan & Bharata ,the Swayambhuva was the 1st Manu Manu smriti mentions 64 classes of people who neglected the Vedic Dharma ,important of them are Saka, Yavana,Barbara,Paundraka,Dravida,Kambhoja,Cheena,Kirata,Darada,Huna,Rumaka,Parada, Odhra & Paplava. In addition some hybrid calsses the result of cross Varna progeny were also kept outside the Vedic society. Some sons of Yayati ie,Turvasu,Druhyu & Anu migrated & ruled Turkey,Yavana & Russian Turkestan countries.. Brahmarshi Vishwamitra had 100 sons,but only his adopted son Sunassepa alias Devavrata got his Kingdom as his 100 sons were not qualified to rule. The 1st 50 sons did not accept the choice but the last 50 sons accepted..The 1st 50 sons were exiled by Viswamitra to foreign lands. Some Kshatriyas from solar & lunar dynasties also went out & ruled foreign lands. Finally Sagara ruled the entire earth. Aryans who deviated from VedicDharma were called by names such as Dasyus,Asuras,Mlecchas & Anaryas. Emperor Cayamana who ruled the present Iran led a confederacy of 10 Dasyu kings & attacked Sudasa , King of areas near Jamuna river,but were defeated by divine will. & driven away.Dasyus disturbed the Yagnas of Aryans & were carrying away cattle & wealth.& were harassing the Aryans by repeated raids.There were regular wars & one such war was related to Zorostrian history.Aryans drove the Dasyus beyond Sindhu & Kabul rivers.in what is now known as Iran or Persia.
Source:- from VIPRA SAMHITA Forum
 
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Yamaka

New member
Dear Krish Sir:

You said that Kaliyuga started in 3102 BC.

When did Krita Yuga start? What Yuga was Lord Rama born in? When was that according to Common or Christian Era?

When was Arjuna born? When was that according to Common Era?

I'd appreciate your answers, if you know them.

Thanks

Regards

Y
 

happyhindu

Well-known member
1. Human evolution to the level of Homo sapiens from Homo erectus and the proto-human ancestors all happened at the Great Rift Valley of Africa (present areas around Lake Victoria). The melanin content is very high in their skins here.

2. For some reasons, these humans started migrating from Africa either thru the Northern Route via Egypt to Palestine towards Europe and Asia or thru Southern Route via Yeman, Omen to Persia to India and towards Australia.

Some of the Migrants stayed and flourished in India - these people are the dark-skinned people with high melanin content (I call them the Original People of India, may be same as the "Dravidians" in nomenclature)

When did this happen? Probably about 100,000 to 150,000 years ago... the exact time is a point of contention among scientists of anthropology, human geneticists etc.
Shri Yamaka,

The first "out-of-africa" migrats were not dravidian speakers. The earliest occupants of india were the austroasiatic speakers (these were the "original" people of india), not dravidian speakers.

Considering climatic influence and long period of nativisation in the south of india, those with high melanin content shd have been the austroasiatic speakers, i feel.

Even today the "originals" are around in andaman and nicobar islands (the sentilenese, great andamanese, jarawa, onge..)...They are pitch black, some with a tinge of blue.

[An aside: i can't help comparing them with Rama, Krishna, Vishnu who are represented as black with a tinge of blue. Mal (or Thirumal), according to some, was the God of the early peoples, who involved in one of the earliest forms of food-gathering known to man -- fishing].

Also sir, there is some research that the earliest civilisations of the south must have been by the austroasiatic groups. But very insufficient and very inconclusive.

From my end i have been making comparisons between megalithic cultures of south-india and those across the world. There is an astounding similarity between some Indonesians and the southindians (those who were persumably austroasiatic alone, or a combined autroasiatic-dravidian group) -- that is in the town planning / layout and the usage of megalithic stones (Megalithic literally means “large stones”).

In East Nusa Tenggara, Indonesia, a single megalithic stone, is found at the center of a village. Such a stone can never be moved. This stone is erected for “communication with the ancestors”. This is exactly similar to Southern Indian layouts of towns, where a stone structure (the temple) was the centre point and the town was built around the temple.

The Ngada people of Indonesia are amongst the people who till date live in villages built around a megalithic stone and continue the practice of ceremonial offerings to the stones. Megalithic tombs with elaborate carvings symbolized the status of the person who will be erected. And a great tomb might weight 30 tons; take 40 men two years to prepare and 1000 men to drag it from the quarry to its site. This pales in comparison to Angkot Vat though. I think Stone Structures were an integral part of the austro-asiatic culture.

Megalithic burial urns were found in Kerala: The Hindu : Kerala News : Burial urns point to Megalithic clans in Idukki Unfortunately no research in this matter is available from northern india.

There is also some research that the people of Kerala were originally austroasiatic. The Pallavas were supposedly the first people who shifted from rock-cut shelters (rock-cut temples) to stand-alone temples, and created towns centered around a temple structure.

According to some, this is the reason why early settlements end in the word 'palli' (like tiruchirapalli, etc). It is also claimed that their kings were a series of Perumals (the great Mals), hence you have places like Pallikonda (and also Pallikonda Perumal, that is, The Great Mal of the Palli mountain (palli mountain settlement)).

In those days, there were only 2 versions of people -- the Pallis who lived in towns, and very many myriad kinds of Banjaras (forest-dewllers). Obviously forest-dwellers became town-dwellers. So there is no question of people being genetically different just because of their place of residence. And obviously there were no varnas in such early settlements.

It is impossible to say which were the tribes that became part of the Palli settlements. Or which tribes remained banjaras. Please do not confuse the words banjara and pallis with present day "castes" of the same names, there were far too many different kinds of banjaras. Ex: the Veddas of Srilanka are ban-jaras (forest-dwellers that are supposedly indo-european speakers), and so are the Irulas, Uralis, Kadars, etc (these are dravidian speaking tribes).

Even today there are austroasiatic tribes across india. They are considered adivasis and forest-dwellers. I shd think the adivasi priests were the earliest of priests and represent earliest forms of hindu worship. The Khasis of north-east india are austro-asiatic. Me thinks, people may have moved around from here and there. But everyone is right here. Each one having re-invented themselves with the progression of culture.

3. The Migrants in the North (who came via the Northern Route) lost most of their melanin pigments, which was not necessary for them (because they were far away from the Equator where the Sun's intensity is the most) and there is a need for Sun light penetration to make Vit D in the colder climate. Hence these people looked "White" or lighter color with very low melanin pigment after staying there for about 100,000 years. Their genes for melanin was mutated.

4. These Northerners started migrating towards South. A wave of people from the steppe lands of Central Asia (presently Kazakshtan to Turkmanistan, I believe) started moving towards Europe and towards India. The people coming to India were the Immigrants (aka "the Aryans").

When did this happen? Not sure...but could be about 5000 years ago (3000 BCE). Probably, these nomadic people fought tooth and nail to get a foothold in the lush lands of Indus and Ganges, grabbing lands from the Original People, the Dravidians: hence, they destroyed the glorious Civilizations of Indus Valley... this is just a speculation. Or these Civilizations died on their own just before the arrival of the Immigrants... nobody knows for sure.

5. After initial wars, the new Immigrants and the Original Peoples started inter-marrying and producing progenies of "brown people" with different color hues in India.
I do not think that present-day skin color can represent ancient migrations. While i was a student in chennai, i had a wheatish looking kashmiri classmate who was born and raised in chennai. From photos we cud see that her cousins in delhi were much fairer compared to her. Understandly she was fair compared to the rest of our class mates. But then, lets say she works in the hot sun everyday (perhaps in a field as a farmer with no facials, bleaching), i think she too can become black within 10 years.

Am not able to agree that nomadic people fought and grabbed land from the dravidians. There is no hard evidence for it. For all we know the earliest creators of the brahmanas (texts) that is the kurus, cud have been dravidian speakers. You must be aware that BMAC culture belongs to a non-indoeuropean speaking group. I suppose its all about waiting for more research.

6. Most probably, SOME of the Immigrants (Aryans) started writing the Vedas and thus the "Hinduism" got started with all its glory and confusion, IMO...most probably, these people started the Caste System to manage the Society according to professions. But these Caste System created untold suffering to the people in the lower category and great people like Mahavir and Buddha started condemning it.. hence the followers of these people started different religions, again to manage and dominate the Society.
IMO, the only thing that shines in the vedas is the depth of language wrt the compositions. They were expressing things just as poets do today, somethings profund, and something mundane.

For all talk of sattva guna and such crap, the vedas (samhitas, brahmanas) contain things like cattle-raids, petty fights, human sacrifice, animal sacrifice...wonder where did their sattva guna go at that time..So much for "pathway of vedic truth".

But yes, there is this 'folk memory' that things that were non-vedic got stolen by the 'vedic'.

Non-vedic is our everyday poojas, temples, yoga, tantra (and perhaps even the concept of moksha). These were not known to the peoples who expressed themselves thru compositions in the "vedic period".

But again, i think the idea of things being 'stolen' exists mainly because of the caste system.

All Man-Made Religions, and Gods... (and Man can also clone himself using his awesome knowledge to understand Nature).

Granted, there will be lots of exceptions to what I said here...anyway, I will try to accommodate all the anomalies into my Working Hypothesis, as and when I get satisfactory answers.

Cheers.
I like talking to you Yamaka. As for your early posts in this thread, i shall post some points made by indologists after 16th july (if time permits, then will try to do that over the next few days).

ps. You can take people from Kanyakumari to live in Kashmir for 10-20 years; after 20 years, they will be distinctly different from other Kashmiris living there... this shows that genetic mutations take in the order of 50,000 to 100,000 years to show off in the phenotype. That is, relative short term climatic changes don't matter as far as "permanent" melanin pigment concentration is concerned. Cheers.
I agree.

Regards.
 
Last edited:

B.Krishnamurthy

Active member
Dear Shri.Yamaha,I had posted the information which you require in another thread and inviting your attention.
One Scholar by name Dr.P.V.Vartak has written a numbers of Books on these subjects
in Marathi and English.The books are available for sale.
Please open the website" 'www.drpvvartak.com".You can see the list of books available for sale.
 
Last edited:

subbudu1

New member
Shri Yamaka,

The first "out-of-africa" migrats were not dravidian speakers. The earliest occupants of india were the austroasiatic speakers (these were the "original" people of india), not dravidian speakers.

Considering climatic influence and long period of nativisation in the south of india, those with high melanin content shd have been the austroasiatic speakers, i feel.

Even today the "originals" are around in andaman and nicobar islands (the sentilenese, great andamanese, jarawa, onge..)...They are pitch black, some with a tinge of blue.

[An aside: i can't help comparing them with Rama, Krishna, Vishnu who are represented as black with a tinge of blue. Mal (or Thirumal), according to some, was the God of the early peoples, who involved in one of the earliest forms of food-gathering known to man -- fishing].

Also sir, there is some research that the earliest civilisations of the south must have been by the austroasiatic groups. But very insufficient and very inconclusive.

From my end i have been making comparisons between megalithic cultures of south-india and those across the world. There is an astounding similarity between some Indonesians and the southindians (those who were persumably austroasiatic alone, or a combined autroasiatic-dravidian group) -- that is in the town planning / layout and the usage of megalithic stones (Megalithic literally means “large stones”).

In East Nusa Tenggara, Indonesia, a single megalithic stone, is found at the center of a village. Such a stone can never be moved. This stone is erected for “communication with the ancestors”. This is exactly similar to Southern Indian layouts of towns, where a stone structure (the temple) was the centre point and the town was built around the temple.

The Ngada people of Indonesia are amongst the people who till date live in villages built around a megalithic stone and continue the practice of ceremonial offerings to the stones. Megalithic tombs with elaborate carvings symbolized the status of the person who will be erected. And a great tomb might weight 30 tons; take 40 men two years to prepare and 1000 men to drag it from the quarry to its site. This pales in comparison to Angkot Vat though. I think Stone Structures were an integral part of the austro-asiatic culture.

Megalithic burial urns were found in Kerala: The Hindu : Kerala News : Burial urns point to Megalithic clans in Idukki Unfortunately no research in this matter is available from northern india.

There is also some research that the people of Kerala were originally austroasiatic. The Pallavas were supposedly the first people who shifted from rock-cut shelters (rock-cut temples) to stand-alone temples, and created towns centered around a temple structure.

According to some, this is the reason why early settlements end in the word 'palli' (like tiruchirapalli, etc). It is also claimed that their kings were a series of Perumals (the great Mals), hence you have places like Pallikonda (and also Pallikonda Perumal, that is, The Great Mal of the Palli mountain (palli mountain settlement)).

In those days, there were only 2 versions of people -- the Pallis who lived in towns, and very many myriad kinds of Banjaras (forest-dewllers). Obviously forest-dwellers became town-dwellers. So there is no question of people being genetically different just because of their place of residence. And obviously there were no varnas in such early settlements.

It is impossible to say which were the tribes that became part of the Palli settlements. Or which tribes remained banjaras. Please do not confuse the words banjara and pallis with present day "castes" of the same names, there were far too many different kinds of banjaras. Ex: the Veddas of Srilanka are ban-jaras (forest-dwellers that are supposedly indo-european speakers), and so are the Irulas, Uralis, Kadars, etc (these are dravidian speaking tribes).

Even today there are austroasiatic tribes across india. They are considered adivasis and forest-dwellers. I shd think the adivasi priests were the earliest of priests and represent earliest forms of hindu worship. The Khasis of north-east india are austro-asiatic. Me thinks, people may have moved around from here and there. But everyone is right here. Each one having re-invented themselves with the progression of culture.


I do not think that present-day skin color can represent ancient migrations. While i was a student in chennai, i had a wheatish looking kashmiri classmate who was born and raised in chennai. From photos we cud see that her cousins in delhi were much fairer compared to her. Understandly she was fair compared to the rest of our class mates. But then, lets say she works in the hot sun everyday (perhaps in a field as a farmer with no facials, bleaching), i think she too can become black within 10 years.

Am not able to agree that nomadic people fought and grabbed land from the dravidians. There is no hard evidence for it. For all we know the earliest creators of the brahmanas (texts) that is the kurus, cud have been dravidian speakers. You must be aware that BMAC culture belongs to a non-indoeuropean speaking group. I suppose its all about waiting for more research.


IMO, the only thing that shines in the vedas is the depth of language wrt the compositions. They were expressing things just as poets do today, somethings profund, and something mundane.

For all talk of sattva guna and such crap, the vedas (samhitas, brahmanas) contain things like cattle-raids, petty fights, human sacrifice, animal sacrifice...wonder where did their sattva guna go at that time..So much for "pathway of vedic truth".

But yes, there is this 'folk memory' that things that were non-vedic got stolen by the 'vedic'.

Non-vedic is our everyday poojas, temples, yoga, tantra (and perhaps even the concept of moksha). These were not known to the peoples who expressed themselves thru compositions in the "vedic period".

But again, i think the idea of things being 'stolen' exists mainly because of the caste system.


I like talking to you Yamaka. As for your early posts in this thread, i shall post some points made by indologists after 16th july (if time permits, then will try to do that over the next few days).


I agree.

Regards.
An informative post!
I agree with your view that australoasian groups were the earliest in south India.
Since you are better read in this subject can you inform me how did they come from Africa to India. I suspect it was not via middle east.


In East Nusa Tenggara, Indonesia, a single megalithic stone, is found at the center of a village. Such a stone can never be moved. This stone is erected for “communication with the ancestors”. This is exactly similar to Southern Indian layouts of towns, where a stone structure (the temple) was the centre point and the town was built around the temple.
Could this not be a legacy of the sea faring tamils and an occurence of a much later period?
 

subbudu1

New member
Dear Shri.Yamaha,I had posted the information which you require in another thread and inviting your attention.
One Scholar by name Dr.P.V.Vartak has written a numbers of Books on these subjects
in Marathi and English.The books are available for sale.
Please open the website" 'www.drpvvartak.com".You can see the list of books available for sale.

Dear Krishnamurthy I have read the website. I find the section on pregnancy and srimad bhagwatham interesting. However I find his other articles too difficult to digest.
 

Yamaka

New member
Shri Yamaka,

The first "out-of-africa" migrats were not dravidian speakers. The earliest occupants of india were the austroasiatic speakers (these were the "original" people of india), not dravidian speakers.

I am not venturing, at this time, into Languages: I use the word Dravidian here to indicate people of high melanin content in their skin.. I believe that Austroasians are the people of South East Asia including Eastern part of India and Bangladesh. It's conceivable that the Original people who settled in India spoke a form of the Austroasian language(s).

I have no idea when the dark skinned people started talking one of the Dravidian languages (Tamil, Telugu, Kannada and Malayalam).



Considering climatic influence and long period of nativisation in the south of india, those with high melanin content shd have been the austroasiatic speakers, i feel.

Even today the "originals" are around in andaman and nicobar islands (the sentilenese, great andamanese, jarawa, onge..)...They are pitch black, some with a tinge of blue.

[An aside: i can't help comparing them with Rama, Krishna, Vishnu who are represented as black with a tinge of blue. Mal (or Thirumal), according to some, was the God of the early peoples, who involved in one of the earliest forms of food-gathering known to man -- fishing].

Also sir, there is some research that the earliest civilisations of the south must have been by the austroasiatic groups. But very insufficient and very inconclusive.

From my end i have been making comparisons between megalithic cultures of south-india and those across the world. There is an astounding similarity between some Indonesians and the southindians (those who were persumably austroasiatic alone, or a combined autroasiatic-dravidian group) -- that is in the town planning / layout and the usage of megalithic stones (Megalithic literally means “large stones”).

In East Nusa Tenggara, Indonesia, a single megalithic stone, is found at the center of a village. Such a stone can never be moved. This stone is erected for “communication with the ancestors”. This is exactly similar to Southern Indian layouts of towns, where a stone structure (the temple) was the centre point and the town was built around the temple.

The Ngada people of Indonesia are amongst the people who till date live in villages built around a megalithic stone and continue the practice of ceremonial offerings to the stones. Megalithic tombs with elaborate carvings symbolized the status of the person who will be erected. And a great tomb might weight 30 tons; take 40 men two years to prepare and 1000 men to drag it from the quarry to its site. This pales in comparison to Angkot Vat though. I think Stone Structures were an integral part of the austro-asiatic culture.

Megalithic burial urns were found in Kerala: The Hindu : Kerala News : Burial urns point to Megalithic clans in Idukki Unfortunately no research in this matter is available from northern india.

There is also some research that the people of Kerala were originally austroasiatic. The Pallavas were supposedly the first people who shifted from rock-cut shelters (rock-cut temples) to stand-alone temples, and created towns centered around a temple structure.

According to some, this is the reason why early settlements end in the word 'palli' (like tiruchirapalli, etc). It is also claimed that their kings were a series of Perumals (the great Mals), hence you have places like Pallikonda (and also Pallikonda Perumal, that is, The Great Mal of the Palli mountain (palli mountain settlement)).

In those days, there were only 2 versions of people -- the Pallis who lived in towns, and very many myriad kinds of Banjaras (forest-dewllers). Obviously forest-dwellers became town-dwellers. So there is no question of people being genetically different just because of their place of residence. And obviously there were no varnas in such early settlements.

It is impossible to say which were the tribes that became part of the Palli settlements. Or which tribes remained banjaras. Please do not confuse the words banjara and pallis with present day "castes" of the same names, there were far too many different kinds of banjaras. Ex: the Veddas of Srilanka are ban-jaras (forest-dwellers that are supposedly indo-european speakers), and so are the Irulas, Uralis, Kadars, etc (these are dravidian speaking tribes).

Even today there are austroasiatic tribes across india. They are considered adivasis and forest-dwellers. I shd think the adivasi priests were the earliest of priests and represent earliest forms of hindu worship. The Khasis of north-east india are austro-asiatic. Me thinks, people may have moved around from here and there. But everyone is right here. Each one having re-invented themselves with the progression of culture.


I do not think that present-day skin color can represent ancient migrations. While i was a student in chennai, i had a wheatish looking kashmiri classmate who was born and raised in chennai. From photos we cud see that her cousins in delhi were much fairer compared to her. Understandly she was fair compared to the rest of our class mates. But then, lets say she works in the hot sun everyday (perhaps in a field as a farmer with no facials, bleaching), i think she too can become black within 10 years.

Am not able to agree that nomadic people fought and grabbed land from the dravidians. There is no hard evidence for it. For all we know the earliest creators of the brahmanas (texts) that is the kurus, cud have been dravidian speakers. You must be aware that BMAC culture belongs to a non-indoeuropean speaking group. I suppose its all about waiting for more research.

Among the current Indian population, the genome has both wild type and mutated alleles for melanin and gets expressed in an astonishingly complex ways.. For example, I am from the small town in Ramanathapuram District. My paternal and maternal grandmothers looked "very fair" colored like Central Asians. My grandpas were "brown" colored.. my father was "brown" colored, my Mom was "fair" colored; I am "dark brown" (little lighter than President Obama) and my TB wife is "very fair" colored. My daughter is "fair" and my son is "brown". Depending on the expressions of the different alleles of melanin genes you get different hues of color. I surmise people of Kanyakumari has minimal mix with the "Northern Immigrants".

To me it is conceivable that the Original People well settled at the banks of perennial rivers like Indus and Ganges..they were quite people focusing on their own Literature (Iyyal), Music (Isai) and Drama (Nadagam) in their leisure time.. there came the nomadic people from the North in their horses and horse-driven chariots all hungry for "good living". I expected great Wars between the groups, and the Northern Immigrants won to some extent: Meaning getting strong footholds in the lush agricultural lands of the great rivers...but, I don't have proof. I agree.


IMO, the only thing that shines in the vedas is the depth of language wrt the compositions. They were expressing things just as poets do today, somethings profund, and something mundane.

For all talk of sattva guna and such crap, the vedas (samhitas, brahmanas) contain things like cattle-raids, petty fights, human sacrifice, animal sacrifice...wonder where did their sattva guna go at that time..So much for "pathway of vedic truth".

But yes, there is this 'folk memory' that things that were non-vedic got stolen by the 'vedic'.

Non-vedic is our everyday poojas, temples, yoga, tantra (and perhaps even the concept of moksha). These were not known to the peoples who expressed themselves thru compositions in the "vedic period".

But again, i think the idea of things being 'stolen' exists mainly because of the caste system.


I like talking to you Yamaka. As for your early posts in this thread, i shall post some points made by indologists after 16th july (if time permits, then will try to do that over the next few days).


I agree.

Regards.

Hello Happyhindu:

Good comments.

You have more information wrt languages, which I don't have... please see my comments given in bold letters.

Regards

Y

ps. To minimize confusion I don't want to bring in words like Dravidian and Aryan here. I prefer to use Original High Melanin People and Northern Low Melanin Immigrants, respectively.
 
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