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Age of punool

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tbs

Well-known member
HI GOPAL,
i think punool is CALLED YAJNOPAVEETHAM...........BRAHMANA NIRMITHAM..
means made by brahma....i guess in old days punool used be made of
skin of deer/some trees.later change into threads.Even today we use
part of deer skin for brahmachari.even i think punool used to be
in gold/silver material. this yuga we are using only cotton threads.Even today we
are making punool by hand....not with any yarn machinery.

Regards,
tbs
 
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happyhindu

Well-known member
Gopal-ji,

Cotton cultivation and spinning-yarn by hand is very ancient. Cotton was cultivated during IVC times. And other material such as jute and wool was also used...i read somewhere that wearing the sacred thread supposedly was a tribal practice. And it also appears to have been widespread. There are some non-brahmins like nadars who follow the custom even till now. It is not known whether such practices were of adopted origin in such communities due to sanskritization or were they already present in these communities due to the tribal origins of the practice itself...but since the origins is tribal, it must be ancient, no-doubt..certainly not depending on machinery :).

TBS-ji,

Am wondering about the use of animal-skin in vedic socities...did the rishis skin the deer themselves? or were animal-carcass-handlers present? Am wondering about the interaction part - does it mean that one did the hunting, another did the skinning, another did the bartering or selling it...perhaps such things were responsible for the creation of various social groupings...me too am certain it came to be in gold and silver form at some point - but i dunno when.

Any ideas where, as geographical region, did the yagnopavitham start?

Regards.
 

pannvalan

Well-known member
The 'poonool' derives its name from the fact it is worn (poonudhal) during important ceremonies and rituals. It is also called 'muppuri nool' in Tamil meaning it is made of three spun fibres tied together.

Cotton thread must have arrived some 2500 years ago. Prior to that, the material used must have been something else.

It is possible some animal hides or tree barks were used to prepare this in ancient period. (Remember, only after the advent of Jainism and Buddhism, Hinduism stopped
animal sacrifices in Yagams and Homams, to propitiate the Devas). So, as per recorded History, even brahmins were not vegetarians, in the vedic age.

Except 'Shudras', people of all the other 3 varnas were allowed to wear 'poonool'. But, rituals and roles for each of these 3 varnas were well-defined and well-delineated.

'Poonool' is a mark of outward identity and does not lend any title or qualification to those who wear it. Unitl the recent past, it was used to distinguish people of different classes or castes.

'Poonool' also serves as a reminder to a person of his duty to observe morals and discipline, who may otherwise forget them or swerve from them.

Unfortunately, this very same 'poonool', wearing of which was denied to a particular group of people from the same society, became an object of hatred and a target of
venting their anger, in due course.
 
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Seshadri Subramaniam

Well-known member
It is possible some animal hides or tree barks were used to prepare this in ancient period. (Remember, only after the advent of Jainism and Buddhism, Hinduism stopped
animal sacrifices in Yagams and Homams, to propitiate the Devas). So, as per recorded History, even brahmins were not vegetarians, in the vedic age.


Pardon me for deviating from the topic... just couldn't help it...

The practice of animal sacrifices in yagnas does not infer that brahmins were non-vegetarians??? It simply would mean that offerings were made to the sacrificial fire. Again, there is the concept of symbolism... Pls see this link:

http://www.vedah.com/org/literature/yajurVeda/animSacrifice.asp

Regards,
Seshadri
 

Nacchinarkiniyan

Well-known member
Sorry Seshadri. Chappaikattu we call it. The term sacrificial meat is too well known in Hinduism. The story of Vathapi and Agasthya is often quoted to show that the Brahmins ate meat. Accept it and leave it. Appayya Dikshita performed the Vajapeyayagna sacrificing horses. Please see

http://www.dlshq.org/saints/appayya.htm

We do not need to sanitize Hinduism. That would be a sacrilege. Even an Aghori is a Hindu. BTW there is a specific word in Sanskrit which denotes an Adhithi for whom a cow is sacrificed. Vegetarianism and Go Samarakshan are later ideas.
 
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Seshadri Subramaniam

Well-known member
Sorry Seshadri. Chappaikattu we call it. The term sacrificial meat is too well known in Hinduism. The story of Vathapi and Agasthya is often quoted to show that the Brahmins ate meat. Accept it and leave it. Appayya Dikshita performed the Vajapeyayagna sacrificing horses. Please see

http://www.dlshq.org/saints/appayya.htm

We do not need to sanitize Hinduism. That would be a sacrilege. Even an Aghori is a Hindu. BTW there is a specific word in Sanskrit which denotes an Adhithi for whom a cow is sacrificed. Vegetarianism and Go Samarakshan are later ideas.


I beg to differ with you.

As said in the Gita, a stone and a diamond are the same to the eyes of the enlightened (paraphrased). Agasthiyar consumed vathapi to put their demonic deeds to rest and this incident cannot be construed to mean that brahmins ate meat.

It is hard to believe that the minds which followed the truth of the vedas and upanishads were meat-eaters!!!

It could be that the ritualistic practices gained more prominence in the latter ages, which led to the sacrifices of animals. But again, it does not prove that they "ate" meat!
 

Nacchinarkiniyan

Well-known member
I am not surprised. Even in the academic sessions when we were taught about the Vedic period of Hinduism, many students refuse to believe this though the professor is an orthodox Vaidik Brahmin.
 

Nacchinarkiniyan

Well-known member
Coming back to the discussion about Yagnopaveetam Women were also wearing Yagnopaveetam in the early Vedic period. As it stands today we have not been able to find when and why this practice was discontinued. Theories are there galore. But no supporting evidence.

Our knowledge of the Vedic period especially the early Vedic period is very sketchy. We have thousands of unread/untranslated manuscripts lying around in India, Germany and U.K.
 

Seshadri Subramaniam

Well-known member
I am not surprised. Even in the academic sessions when we were taught about the Vedic period of Hinduism, many students refuse to believe this though the professor is an orthodox Vaidik Brahmin.


It mainly depends on the validity of the argument and its underlying logic with relation to the subject irrespective of "who' the person may be
 

Seshadri Subramaniam

Well-known member
Interesting to note that women wore yagnyopaveetam in the vedic times...

How come our manuscripts are lying in Germany/UK... Is it not possible to claim them back?

Am assuming that your profession does deal with research on hinduism (somewhere)?
 

Nacchinarkiniyan

Well-known member
The pity is that more research on Hinduism is being done in the west especially in U.S than in India. Research grants are easier to obtain in the U.S. universities for original research on Hinduism. Our universities do not encourage this. The reason attributed is that the research should also be of benefit to the society that is socially oriented. Their funds are limited. Also political correctness.

Germans were the first to take an interest in Sanskrit and the old literature. The first translation of the Vedas was done in German. The English got interested in Hinduism to enable them to rule us better. And the Missionaries for conversion. Of course there were many exceptions. The English translated old Sanskrit texts by having two Brahmin pundits sitting on either side. One to read the text, the other to translate it into English. This is a joke among the Indologists, but true.

The Germans did it by learning Sanskrit and pondering over dictioneries. So Germany has a number of manuscripts. We should thank Germany and U.K for preserving these because otherwise they would have been lost for ever.
 

Seshadri Subramaniam

Well-known member
Reg women wearing Yagnyopaveetam...

Are there any scriptures to point to this conclusion?

Or is this conclusion arrived at an inference based on the practices of the vedic women?
 

happyhindu

Well-known member
Have been reading thru some puranas. In the Markendeya Purana, there is a conversation where Madalasa (a female) taught Alarka (her son) about dharma. Therein, it has been mentioned that donating alms, studying (svadhyaya) and performing yagnas is done by all 4 varnas.

Only the functions of each varna was restricted - a kshatriyas duty was to pick up arms and protect the earth, the vaishya's duties were trade, agriculture and animal husbandry, a shudra's duty was to serve the remaining 3 classes.

Am wondering if culture followed in diff parts of india were diff from one another (???)....and if diff puranas written in diff parts of the country cud shed some light on how culture was at that time it got written down.

It appears that Markendeya Purana was one of the earliest puranas, written b/w 400 AD (or 300AD) and 1000 AD. The Chandi part of it is most famous and is read in eastern India at the time of Durga puja. Would it be possible to hazard a guess that yagnopavitham for females and performance of yagnas by all 4 varnas were followed in eastern-India during this time???
 

Nacchinarkiniyan

Well-known member
There are many unanswered questions about Indian history and Hinduism. Most of what we know are inferences. Then we have what we called wild theories. Many of the wild theories have been supported by politics. To quote one example I had read a book on " How the ancient Tamils had conquered Polynesia". This was a doctoral thesis of Madras University. Again they had a recent conference on Indus valley Civilization and Tamil. Any non-political historian, archaeologist, anthropologist or Indologist will tell you that the connection is like the connection between Abdul Kader and Amavasya.

May be I should start a thread on the so many unanswered questions about Hinduism.

There is no mention of Eastern India in the Vedic period. Eastern India is a very very late entrant in the Hindu history.
 

happyhindu

Well-known member
May be I should start a thread on the so many unanswered questions about Hinduism.

yes sir please do....it will be much helpful to ppl like me who are not even able to figure out till date in which geographical regions were vedic culture followed....

now am supposing that the devi mahatmya and chandi path are popular in bengal bcoz they are a devi-worshipping lot and not bcoz of the reason inferred from the markandeya purana (where was it written btw?)

regards.
 

Nacchinarkiniyan

Well-known member
Many or I would say most of the Puranas were written in Peninsular India. But our country has been/is dominated by the North Indians who have refused to accept the immense contributions of Peninsular/South India towards Hinduism. Since almost all the leading historians are from the North and East they always had this blinker in their eyes. This is accepted by many historians now.

Markandeya Purana is believed to have been written in Saptha Shringi a place near Nasik, Maharashtra. But then Chandi Path and Bhagavad Gita are later interpolations in Markendeya Purana and Mahabharata. Interpolations are very common in Itihasas and Puranas. But then this is not believed by the common man.

Devi worship is very common in Tamil Nadu, Andhra Pradesh, and Kerala. Do you know that there are more Kali temples in Tamil Nadu than in Bengal. Some of them are older than any temple in Bengal. The number of people with the name Kali in Tamil Nadu far exceeds the number of Bengalis with that name. In fact they never name anyone Kali. In Tamil Nadu we have Kaliappans also. The number of Devi temples in in one or two districts of Kerala is more than the number of Devi temples in Bengal. Again the name Bagavathy is more common in Kerala than any Devi name in Bengal.

Again a common wrong perception.
 

happyhindu

Well-known member
So sir, wud it be possible to say that the Shakti cults or Shaktaism as a school went from south to north (or wud there be a more than one direction) ?
 

KRS

Well-known member
Dear Sri Nacchinarkiniyan Ji,

We know that Adi Shankara united all diiferent deities from the different parts of India to promote Advaitha: Shiva from up North, Kali from Bengal, Ganapathy from Maharashtra/Gujarat, Krishna from I think Orissa, Vishnu from Andhra and Murugan from Tamil Nadu.

May be due to this effort the Gods got transmuted. Is my thinking not correct in terms of the timings involved?

Regards,
KRS
 

happyhindu

Well-known member
i asked a guide from srirangam why so mnay inscriptions in the temple there were in telugu and and he said that from his experiance he noticed that 'teluguvari ki vishnu priyam...just as shiva is dear to the tamils'....KRS-ji's posting reminds me of that...but i thot that Krishna was from Gujarat (??)...all very interesting..finally leads us to the 'ekam satya vipra...' statement.
 

Nacchinarkiniyan

Well-known member
Dear Sri Nacchinarkiniyan Ji,

We know that Adi Shankara united all diiferent deities from the different parts of India to promote Advaitha: Shiva from up North, Kali from Bengal, Ganapathy from Maharashtra/Gujarat, Krishna from I think Orissa, Vishnu from Andhra and Murugan from Tamil Nadu.

May be due to this effort the Gods got transmuted. Is my thinking not correct in terms of the timings involved?

Regards,
KRS

First the shanmadha concept is not accepted by historians. Sankaracharya uniting all sects is part of Tamil Nadu folklore. There are many things about Adi Sankaracharya which we accept today as facts. But they are not universally accepted.

1. Storas/works attributed to him-- In the Aparadhakshmapana Stotra the poet talks about his being very old ( more than 85). Adi Sankara did not live that long. The authorship of the Tantrik text Soundarya Lahiri is also in doubt. Saying that Acharya turned to Mimansa towards the end of his life and he became a Sri Vidya Upasaka negates the entire history of Adi Sankara which was Advaita Vedanta (Nirguna Brahman). There were many Sankarachryas in many of the maths. It is more likely that the works/deeds attributed to Adi Sankara are by them.

Then I do not expect agreement when people attribute his date of birth to B.C when all the scholars are in agreement about 800 A.D.

2. One of the popular goddesses worshipped in early sangam period was Korravai. Kodunagalloor temple in Kerala is believed to be Kannaki temple erected by the Cheras. So worship of Shakthi in Tamil Nadu predates that of Bengal.

3. The Sakthism as it existed/exists in Bengal is of a very much later period than 800 A.D.

4. Sakthism in Tamil Nadu is considered part of Saivism. It is so in Bengal also. Pure Sakthism is not common and exists only in books. The so called Sakthas of Bengal are all Shiva worshippers also.

5. John Woodruffe wrote about Tantras and Sakthism. He was based in Bengal and knew only about Bengal. That is why the existence of extensive Shakti worship in Tamil Nadu, Kerala, Gujarat, Bihar, Maharshtra,and Rajasthan were not taken into account. Do you know that the only Saktha community in India are the Maithili Brahmins from Bihar. He never knew about the tantrik works of Kerala, Tamil Nadu and other states or the Vaishnavite tantras like Lakshmi Tantra. Sri Ramakrishna's Tantrik Guru Maa Bhairavi Brahmani was not only a woman but also a staunch Krishna Bhaktai.

7. No one has bothered to study Sakthi worship in any other state than Bengal. The tales about Sakthism in Maharashtra and Gujarat are even being forgotten though the Goddesses and Shakthi temples remain as a mute witness to the prevalence of Sakthi worship. Of course all the temples like Ambaaji and Tulja Bhavani continue to draw devotees even today. MAA draws Bhakthas.
 

happyhindu

Well-known member
have seen that shaktaism in maharashtra is very strong....incidentally most kings seem to have modelled their worship after shakti or power personifying dieties since they beleived it wud bring them power in a fight / war...eg: tulja bhavani was the kula devi of the king shivaji's clan and also happens to be the tutelary deity of the nepal royals.

As per books by Susan Bayly, the nayakas were also shakti worshipping initially...there is one story abt krishnadeva raya taking a different lady every night before a war believing that the lady 'shakti' wud pass on her powers to him...he later sought and found peace in the vaishnava faith and gave up his kinky practices for good.

Hariharananda Paramahansa says in his book 'kriya yoga' that tantra somehow turned out to be the most misunderstood (and even abused) of all vedic texts, with westerners and new-age claimants.

Am wondering abt Krishna's origin - was it orissa or gujrat?
 
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S

s007bala

Guest
Lila

have seen that shaktaism in maharashtra is very strong....incidentally most kings seem to have modelled their worship after shakti or power personifying dieties since they beleived it wud bring them power in a fight / war...eg: tulja bhavani was the kula devi of the king shivaji's clan and also happens to be the tutelary deity of the nepal royals.

As per books by Susan Bayly, the nayakas were also shakti worshipping initially...there is one story abt krishnadeva raya taking a different virgin every night before a war believing that the lady 'shakti' wud pass on her powers to him...he later sought and found peace in the vaishnava faith and gave up his kinky practices for good.

Hariharananda Paramahansa says in his book 'kriya yoga' that tantra somehow turned out to be the most misunderstood (and even abused) of all vedic texts, with westerners and new-age claimants even coining a term like tantra-sex.

Am wondering abt Krishna's origin - was it orissa or gujrat?

Shri HH

I think its called as Rasa Lila.Only Krishna exists and nothing else.Prolly Bhakthi Yoga margam.Meera Bai was supposed to have vanished or merged into the diety of Krishna,her devotion was so intense "mei marandu poi ninaal".I guess such calibre of devotees was even rare in those ancient era's.

Shakthi & Shivam or Sri & Narayana or Saraswathi & Brahmaa - its always the dual power,which propels.

Because our earth ( Bhu-LOka ) has a motion our ancients named the Bhu-Devi Shakthi.Similiarly for the rest of the celestial objects,they gave a form,mudra,weapons,vahana...et al

sb

:)
 
S

s007bala

Guest
Grantha Tamil

i asked a guide from srirangam why so mnay inscriptions in the temple there were in telugu and and he said that from his experiance he noticed that 'teluguvari ki vishnu priyam...just as shiva is dear to the tamils'....KRS-ji's posting reminds me of that...but i thot that Krishna was from Gujarat (??)...all very interesting..finally leads us to the 'ekam satya vipra...' statement.

Shri HH

When you visit Tirumala Venkatachalapathy Temple,you will notice on the walls,on the steps...lots of writings inscribed in Tamil.But the Tamil writing pattern is slightly different than what was taught to us in schools.I think they call it Grantha Tamil or Vattala Ezhuth Tamil....maybe scholars here can throw further light on this.

I remember some people even saying,the Temple itself was part of Madras Presidency and TN got Palani..or some other temples..some controversy is there,i am sure of it..dunno the exact details...interestingly D H A R M A S when annagrammed becomes M A D H R A S ..:)

sb
 

tbs

Well-known member
Shri HH

When you visit Tirumala Venkatachalapathy Temple,you will notice on the walls,on the steps...lots of writings inscribed in Tamil.But the Tamil writing pattern is slightly different than what was taught to us in schools.I think they call it Grantha Tamil or Vattala Ezhuth Tamil....maybe scholars here can throw further light on this.

I remember some people even saying,the Temple itself was part of Madras Presidency and TN got Palani..or some other temples..some controversy is there,i am sure of it..dunno the exact details...interestingly D H A R M A S when annagrammed becomes M A D H R A S ..:)

sb

hi sb.
Namaskarams,
i studied in Tirupati very long time back . many speak and understand
tamil.In temple its called grantham. It was with Madras presidency
and Andhra Pradesh was formed... Thirupati went to Andhra and
Thiruttani got Tamil nadu... due to aarupadai veedu/ tamizh kadavul.
this info may be correct. i came to know through some ppl in Thirupati.

Regards
tbs
 
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