A Tamil Brahmin Dilemma

[asadu]

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So after all the discussions, truth finding, the matter stands where it was started. No clues or solutions could be found.

 

[krish44]

Asaduji

Rest assured.

There is work in progress.

Vaganeji has collected data and has classified it.

After analysis he will suggest reforms which we shall all blindly follow.

 

[Raji Ram]

Asaduji

Rest assured.

There is work in progress.

Vaganeji has collected data and has classified it.

After analysis he will suggest reforms which we shall all blindly follow.

and.......... save the brahmin community!! :thumb:

 

[vgane]

Asaduji

Rest assured.

There is work in progress.

Vaganeji has collected data and has classified it.

After analysis he will suggest reforms which we shall all blindly follow.

Krishji,

I am not sure if I have become the reformer of the community! I will definitely give suggestions which I am compiling & share to the Group by this week end

 

[rishikesan]

Mr. Vagneji, please let me know briefly the proposal mentioned by Mr. Krishna , so that I can also fall in line with All

Rishikesan ( A.Srinvasan)

 

[vgane]

Mr. Vagneji, please let me know briefly the proposal mentioned by Mr. Krishna , so that I can also fall in line with All

Rishikesan ( A.Srinvasan)

Will call you Sir!

 

[tks]

Well said.

Just noticed this post - thank you!

 

[tks]

I just quickly browsed the thread for all the posts. Here are my thoughts.

For any community, Kulam/caste to preserve their culture (and I am not talking about any sense of superiority or inferiority of cultures) two things are needed

1. They need to be able to have children to sustain the numbers. There will be always losses - child mortality, people who cannot have children etc., people that migrate to other cultures either by marriage or by travel to other places in the earth. For these reasons, two people (husband and wife) need to have 3 or 4 children on an average (a departure from the old family planning ads)

2. Migration and cross cultural marriages are inevitable. That is the 'nature' of nature. The habits and culture of Vedic times are not replicated today. A large number of Hindu 'gods and goddesses' worshiped today were non-existent during Vedic times. Change is the order of the day and nothing can stop that

3. Our system of Satvic Bharathiya culture is under assault primarily by religions that tries to do conversion which is in their theology. One means to do so is by 'multiplying' (like Muslims do). The other is to go after the silent majority of poor people (like Christians). Marriage is one way to convert others also.

4. Let us not confuse Varna Brahmins with Kula Brahmins. One can be a Varna Shudra and still be a Kula Brahmin. Therefore Kula Brahmins must strive to live up to the ideals of Varna Brahmins as described in B. Gita. It is not about some symbols like having a Kudumi or reciting some mantras in Sanskrit. It is about significant character development.

My recommendations are:

1. Stop being concerned about IR and IC marriages. They are symptoms, not a problem
2. Help create an environment via education whereby having 3 to 4 children is considered a blessing.
3. Follow teachings of B.Gita to strive to live up to the expectations of a Varna Brahmana and teach others what it means to lead a life of Dharma
4. Teach children to speak and write Tamil at home. Teach them to follow TB customs and traditions by teaching them the profound reasons for these traditions. For that every person has to learn that themselves.
5. Do not - even by indirect means - ape the west for all the wrong reasons. This has bad influence on the children growing up at such households. Chasing money is a surest form for corrupting a household. If west is to be aped - learn their strong character traits. They respect all kinds of work. They are on time. etc

The decline will reverse naturally.

Right now lot of our actions have been rooted in Adharma.

1. Many in the 1980s and after aborted female fetuses after finding the sex of the baby using ultra sound detection devices. This has led to shortage of women.
2. The dowry system had terrible effect.

Finally, to live a life of Dharma or expectations of a Varna Brahmana, one has to develop strong character. This has an attractive aspects all on its own. There is a built in confidence & humility that comes out of learning and living the values.

Women (TB) will find such character strengths born out of knowledge very attractive. But today, most TB fellows in marriageable age do not have any knowledge of what it means to live the life of a Varna Brahmana. Many women of marriageable age will not find such fellows attractive. In the natural selection (which is another 'dharma') they get left out and wiped out.

Reversing adharmic actions, learning our knowledge scriptures and getting past superstitions, and by inculcating the values of having 3 to 4 children in every family the best of TB culture will thrive and survive

 

[Brahmanyan]

I just quickly browsed the thread for all the posts. Here are my thoughts.

For any community, Kulam/caste to preserve their culture (and I am not talking about any sense of superiority or inferiority of cultures) two things are needed

1. They need to be able to have children to sustain the numbers. There will be always losses - child mortality, people who cannot have children etc., people that migrate to other cultures either by marriage or by travel to other places in the earth. For these reasons, two people (husband and wife) need to have 3 or 4 children on an average (a departure from the old family planning ads)

2. Migration and cross cultural marriages are inevitable. That is the 'nature' of nature. The habits and culture of Vedic times are not replicated today. A large number of Hindu 'gods and goddesses' worshiped today were non-existent during Vedic times. Change is the order of the day and nothing can stop that

3. Our system of Satvic Bharathiya culture is under assault primarily by religions that tries to do conversion which is in their theology. One means to do so is by 'multiplying' (like Muslims do). The other is to go after the silent majority of poor people (like Christians). Marriage is one way to convert others also.

4. Let us not confuse Varna Brahmins with Kula Brahmins. One can be a Varna Shudra and still be a Kula Brahmin. Therefore Kula Brahmins must strive to live up to the ideals of Varna Brahmins as described in B. Gita. It is not about some symbols like having a Kudumi or reciting some mantras in Sanskrit. It is about significant character development.

My recommendations are:

1. Stop being concerned about IR and IC marriages. They are symptoms, not a problem
2. Help create an environment via education whereby having 3 to 4 children is considered a blessing.
3. Follow teachings of B.Gita to strive to live up to the expectations of a Varna Brahmana and teach others what it means to lead a life of Dharma
4. Teach children to speak and write Tamil at home. Teach them to follow TB customs and traditions by teaching them the profound reasons for these traditions. For that every person has to learn that themselves.
5. Do not - even by indirect means - ape the west for all the wrong reasons. This has bad influence on the children growing up at such households. Chasing money is a surest form for corrupting a household. If west is to be aped - learn their strong character traits. They respect all kinds of work. They are on time. etc

The decline will reverse naturally.

Right now lot of our actions have been rooted in Adharma.

1. Many in the 1980s and after aborted female fetuses after finding the sex of the baby using ultra sound detection devices. This has led to shortage of women.
2. The dowry system had terrible effect.

Finally, to live a life of Dharma or expectations of a Varna Brahmana, one has to develop strong character. This has an attractive aspects all on its own. There is a built in confidence & humility that comes out of learning and living the values.

Women (TB) will find such character strengths born out of knowledge very attractive. But today, most TB fellows in marriageable age do not have any knowledge of what it means to live the life of a Varna Brahmana. Many women of marriageable age will not find such fellows attractive. In the natural selection (which is another 'dharma') they get left out and wiped out.

Reversing adharmic actions, learning our knowledge scriptures and getting past superstitions, and by inculcating the values of having 3 to 4 children in every family the best of TB culture will thrive and survive

Dear Sri Tks.,

Excellent post on the dilemma of Tamil Brahmins to day.
I would like to add a few more words to your pragmatic suggestions.
When the girl matures and ready for marriage, parents should show interest at least in expressing their desire to
find a suitable match for the girl. Let the parents not mix up education, career as reasons for postponing marriage. When the girls doubt the parents' intention on delaying their marriage they feel insecure and seek companionship and select their own match. This is the play of nature.

Culture is refinement. In the name of modernity,We should not fritter away the well tested social norms for continuity of the family.

Regards,
Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.

 

[yesmohan]

Dear Sri Tks.,

Excellent post on the dilemma of Tamil Brahmins to day.
I would like to add a few more words to your pragmatic suggestions.
When the girl matures and ready for marriage, parents should show interest at least in expressing their desire to
find a suitable match for the girl. Let the parents not mix up education, career as reasons for postponing marriage. When the girls doubt the parents' intention on delaying their marriage they feel insecure and seek companionship and select their own match. This is the play of nature.

Culture is refinement. In the name of moernity,We should not fritter away the well tested social norms for continuity of the family.

Regards,
Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.

Brahmanyan ji,

I endorse your view, sir.

Actually I did it in the case of my daughter's marriage. When my daughter completed BE (ECE) from Anna University, she got compass selection in Infosis. But I counselled her to continue education (ME in Anna University,Guiny).
When she was doing first year ME, a proposal for alliance came from a family known to my wife.. Boy is an M Tech from I I T and working in a multi national company.

Again I counselled my daughter for marriage; she accepted and the marriage was conducted when she was studying 1st year ME. After marriage she continued her education and got gold medal in Anna University, Guindy.
Now, she is a PhD and working in an Engineering college as HOD.

Your advice that " let the parents not mix up education, career as reasons for postponing marriage." is a very good

one....... good for the girl,parents and the community, at large.

The foremost and important thing is the father-daughter relationship. Father should create a level of confidence in the mind of the daughter that..... father's opinion might be a well thought out and a considered one.

 

[vgane]

Well said Shri TKS, Brahmanyan & Yesmohan

We should let the girls know that we too are concerned about their marriage and not show a reckless attitude...The real life story shared by Yesmohanji is an eyeopener to parents!

 

[yesmohan]

Well said Shri TKS, Brahmanyan & Yesmohan

We should let the girls know that we too are concerned about their marriage and not show a reckless attitude...The real life story shared by Yesmohanji is an eyeopener to parents!

Thank you vgane ji.

 

[prasad1]

Please don't break your hand trying to pat yourself on the back.

We should let the girls know that we too are concerned about their marriage and not show a reckless attitude

It is feel good message to people who are totally ineffective. Our advice and suggestion are good so we can say we tried. The young people are not here and are not a party to this agreement.
But then again it is not in our hand.

 

[vgane]

Please don't break your hand trying to pat yourself on the back.

It is feel good message to people who is totally ineffective. Our advice and suggestion are good so we can say we tried. The young people are not here and are not a party to this agreement.
But then again it is not in our hand.

There is no harm in trying ..We have seen an example where it has worked..It may not work 100%..But at least it will give us a satisfaction!

 

[Raji Ram]

Dear Ganesh,

I agree with Prasad Sir!
:horn: does not work with youngsters. Their decision is FINAL.

And........ NOT everyone falls in love. :nono:

 

[Raji Ram]

I thought the figure Prasad Sir has posted is an apparatus to scratch one's own back!

BTW, why back of the palm is patting? :lol:

 

[yesmohan]

I thought the figure Prasad Sir has posted is an apparatus to scratch one's own back!

BTW, why back of the palm is patting? :lol:

Appears to be a senior citizen who could not have a reach to his back!!

 

[tbs]

Appears to be a senior citizen who could not have a reach to his back!!

hi
they use VISIRI for senior citizen....

 

[auh]

Society is a sieve. In course of time, those thoughts and actions that cannot pass through the mesh are left behind. How far the adopted practices are beneficial to the sociey is again a factor of time and the collective aim of society.

The more one tries to stick to tradition, the more one would be environed by deviations. And vice versa. Everyone has to, ultimately, find their peace and happiness in their brief sojourn here. And, imo, trying to lead a life that is peaceful and happy, and by trying to limit the damage to the variables around us, is better than sticking to any cause or aim based on cultural/traditional/religious ideals.

 

[krish44]

Brahmanyan ji,

I endorse your view, sir.

Actually I did it in the case of my daughter's marriage. When my daughter completed BE (ECE) from Anna University, she got compass selection in Infosis. But I counselled her to continue education (ME in Anna University,Guiny).
When she was doing first year ME, a proposal for alliance came from a family known to my wife.. Boy is an M Tech from I I T and working in a multi national company.

Again I counselled my daughter for marriage; she accepted and the marriage was conducted when she was studying 1st year ME. After marriage she continued her education and got gold medal in Anna University, Guindy.
Now, she is a PhD and working in an Engineering college as HOD.

Your advice that " let the parents not mix up education, career as reasons for postponing marriage." is a very good

one....... good for the girl,parents and the community, at large.

The foremost and important thing is the father-daughter relationship. Father should create a level of confidence in the mind of the daughter that..... father's opinion might be a well thought out and a considered one.

Excellent post.

Both my wife and daughter collected Doctorate and MBA degrees respectively after marriage..

Marriage and academic education should not be linked.

Career and home are on different tracks,

After marriage, oppurtunities for education and career do not come to an end.

Parents should have a mindset to let women grow in terms of higher education and they can ensure that the career aspirations are not destroyed after marriage.

This is easily possible when the groom is selected in arranged marriage.

Many parents shrug off daughters once they are married and do not take care of them after they are married.

They feel their responsiblities are over with marriage.

This is the most commonly held thinking.

So the attempt to hold on to girls who become economic entities and delaying their marriage

 

[Brahmanyan]

Excellent post.

Both my wife and daughter collected Doctorate and MBA degrees respectively after marriage..
Marriage and academic education should not be linked.
Career and home are on different tracks,
After marriage, oppurtunities for education and career do not come to an end.
Parents should have a mindset to let women grow in terms of higher education and they can ensure that the career aspirations are not destroyed after marriage.
This is easily possible when the groom is selected in arranged marriage.
Many parents shrug off daughters once they are married and do not take care of them after they are married.
They feel their responsiblities are over with marriage.
This is the most commonly held thinking.
So the attempt to hold on to girls who become economic entities and delaying their marriage

Sri Yes Mohan and Sri Krish 44, have shown how parents can motivate daughters to get married and study can continue after marriage as well.

It is my view that educating the girl need not be the concern of the parents alone, it is also the responsibility of groom's side. When we got our son married in an arranged marriage, our daughter in law had just finished her Science Degree. I found her academic achievements first class and my wife and I asked her to pursue her studies if she desired so and got her admitted for distance education with a premier University for post graduate studies. But she could not complete the course due to some other reason. For some time she worked in a Bank, but has to discontinue when she conceived. Then when I found her desire in Computer science, I suggested to her take a full time course in NIIT, which she did happily and came out with a rank. She got a job in IT Company, where she has put in 12 years service and is the QC Manager now. In the mean while she had been to US on a short assignment, also did her Certificate Course for Managers in IIM, Luknow.

I wish to acknowledge with gratitude, that all these were possible only because of my wife's cooperation. She took care of the kids (two wonderful grand daughters) and the family. Running a family requires a lot of give and take. Differences do crop up among individuals, but we can always find solution when we understand other's view. Here the role of head of the family helps a lot.

Brahmins' World has changed a lot, but the parents should not shove away their responsibility to get their children married at the right age on any other reason.


Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.

 

[Raji Ram]

Dear Brahmanyan Sir,

Many parents graduate their daughters in some engineering college and make them work till they get a nice guy

from the U S of A, who promises to get a master's degree for their daughter. 'orE kallilE rendu mAngAi'.

1. No need to spend money for her higher education.
2. The girl will live far away from the parents in-law! :couch2:

 

[tks]

Sri Yes Mohan and Sri Krish 44, have shown how parents can motivate daughters to get married and study can continue after marriage as well.

It is my view that educating the girl need not be the concern of the parents alone, it is also the responsibility of groom's side. When we got our son married in an arranged marriage, our daughter in law had just finished her Science Degree. I found her academic achievements first class and my wife and I asked her to pursue her studies if she desired so and got her admitted for distance education with a premier University for post graduate studies. But she could not complete the course due to some other reason. For some time she worked in a Bank, but has to discontinue when she conceived. Then when I found her desire in Computer science, I suggested to her take a full time course in NIIT, which she did happily and came out with a rank. She got a job in IT Company, where she has put in 12 years service and is the QC Manager now. In the mean while she had been to US on a short assignment, also did her Certificate Course for Managers in IIM, Luknow.

I wish to acknowledge with gratitude, that all these were possible only because of my wife's cooperation. She took care of the kids (two wonderful grand daughters) and the family. Running a family requires a lot of give and take. Differences do crop up among individuals, but we can always find solution when we understand other's view. Here the role of head of the family helps a lot.

Brahmins' World has changed a lot, but the parents should not shove away their responsibility to get their children married at the right age on any other reason.


Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.

Sri Brahmanyan - Good point indeed.

Actually my wife enrolled in PhD after marriage - she chose for career reasons, not to complete her thesis though she passed all the qualifiers etc. Many of my friends (TB) did support their wife's education.

A serious issue in the structured society across the world is that two incomes are needed to 'run' a family.

Many of the items that were just optional have been declared essential which increases the expenses. This in turn will mean shorter time for having children.

 

[krish44]

Dear Brahmanyan Sir,

Many parents graduate their daughters in some engineering college and make them work till they get a nice guy

from the U S of A, who promises to get a master's degree for their daughter. 'orE kallilE rendu mAngAi'.

1. No need to spend money for her higher education.
2. The girl will live far away from the parents in-law! :couch2:

Rajiramji

What you do not provide for is a working career girl requires support system after marriage in case she has to bring up kids-four advocated by another

member here.

This is not possible as girls parents are preferred by the girls in india or abroad for supporting upbringing of children.Abroad there are limitations on period of stay and visa issues.

Children get condemned to creches .

Any working model should provide for career girls parents to be very near the girl if not under the same roof.In addition they require servants for cooking ,

laundry and cleaning the home for decent living.

Any married career girl requires at least a couple of servants , her parents so that she can fulfill her career aspirations.

Probably this leaves the boys parents out in the cold -where they need to fend for themselves or end up in old age homes.

This at least is the indian reality.

Solutions need to be evolved for this.

Our traditional lifestyle of girl being given in kanyadaan to boys family is dead.

Working women ki jai for breaking up boys families.

My personal feeling is tambram boys can choose educated girls from large families from castes near to brahmins . They will accept these boys and stay with

boys parents.Our Girls can also do similar things and choose others from almost brahmin communities who will accept that her parents can stay with her.

Career girls have become 'pillai pidikkarava' and look for boy slaves not husbands.

This type of marriages will increase the number of brahmin families -they will at worst become near brahmin families-some dilution one can put up with for

increasing our numbers.

 

[krish44]

Sri Brahmanyan - Good point indeed.

Actually my wife enrolled in PhD after marriage - she chose for career reasons, not to complete her thesis though she passed all the qualifiers etc. Many of my friends (TB) did support their wife's education.

A serious issue in the structured society across the world is that two incomes are needed to 'run' a family.

Many of the items that were just optional have been declared essential which increases the expenses. This in turn will mean shorter time for having children.

One way out is keep having children every year if possible until quota of four is fulfilled.

A huge bonus to be offered to any couple who meet the 4 child rule in 5 years or less.

We can say 4 se kam kabie nahin [ never less than four].lol