A Tamil Brahmin Dilemma

[krish44]

Share:

Facebook X (Twitter) WhatsApp Email Share Link

Brahmin?? :lol:

Who decides?

 

[Raji Ram]

Who decides?

​Right now, parents!

 

[krish44]

When I got married, girls parent was worried that there was half porutham short[4.5/10] for marrying his daughter off to me.

He had sleepless nights and went thru pariharam cycles besides getting some jewellery stones given by an astrologer who happily sold it to him .

Parents of girls can be strange.

They do not like to miss out on well educated and employed boys but at the same time would worry about horoscope matches based on what some astrologer tells him.

If a brahmin boy is educated and well employed , he can have no morals , perform no rituals and promote socialist ideology .All this is acceptable to brahmin society.

 

[Raji Ram]

One of my handsome cousins was a non-veg eater. My uncle wanted to change him as a pure vegetarian and got him married to a

girl from an orthodox family, hoping for the change. After a couple of years, she became an expert in preparing non-veg items! :shocked:
Reason: Raw material to prepare non-veg items were free in military canteen and vegetables had to be bought! :decision:

P.S: Once my mom visited their house and almost fainted after seeing a goat's head in their fridge!

Moral: Never open other's fridge!

 

[Raji Ram]

.......... If a brahmin boy is educated and well employed , he can have no morals , perform no rituals and promote socialist ideology .All this is acceptable to brahmin society.

Dear Krish Sir,

You can expect a reply from Vaagmi Sir!

Please don't generalize. Not ALL brahmins accept boys without morals. :nono:

 

[krish44]

RRji

You have a imaginative mind.

You think all brahmins except you are polluting the world with their food preferances.

In marriage who changes whom is difficult to decide.

Most boys try to change the girl in the beginning but at the end girls have last laugh.

I was forced to wear our caste sign during a recent function at my home.

Wife felt It was the right thing to do. Wife putting a namam on husband at fag end of life.lol

 

[krish44]

Dear Krish Sir,

You can expect a reply from Vaagmi Sir!

Please don't generalize. Not ALL brahmins accept boys without morals. :nono:

There may be some odd balls not in touch with realities of modern living. They might continue to live i a world of their own. God bless them

 

[Raji Ram]

RRji....

You think all brahmins except you are polluting the world with their food preferances.........l

Not at all true, Krish Sir!

We have a wide circle of relatives and friends who are vegetarians and vegans, living in India and abroad. :thumb:

 

[tks]

"TB Culture" may be alive and well with some families holding onto the Brahmin tag. But many Brahmin tag holders are clueless about their heritage and culture.

It is understandable to me to focus on similar background and culture while seeking an alliance. If a person lacks that culture but claims to have the brahmin tag, in what way does that represent a qualification? That is a fake ID because it does not represent the TB culture.

Vegetarianism happens to be just one of the cultural practices among TB families though there are vegetarians in all other castes also.
Seeing animal flesh as food is alien to the TB culture that I know. If anyone drinks booze, or eat all that moved or could move, I feel that such people are far removed from the TB culture I know.

In talking about culture, I am not talking about Varna at all. It is not the same as caste which is based on birth only.


Superstition in the form of evolving horoscope rules is another curse on the TB culture because I know many that did not go forward with suitable alliance because of fear of what their horoscope predicted. I know a few in their 50s and 60s alone (mainly women) because their parents kept postponing or they were rejected for their stars.

So my suggestion is to do away with the tag of brahmana and instead stay focused on cultural and character aspects. If two people are raised in a city like Delhi they may far more in common than simply some cultural practices of their ancestors that they may not be following.

Second is to reject the horoscope aspects in seeking alliance.

I think most significant part is, allowing those that want to marry to interact as friends over the phone, over each other's home in the presence of elders and over skype .

If they feel a sense of connection and the families feel they can feel a sense of connection the chance of success of their marriage is high. This can break down barriers between subsects, Iyer/Iyengar and even TB-NB in certain cases while arranging a lasting marriage

 

[krish44]

Arranged marriages -What are they.

Nothing more than a mutual benefit scheme where two families , boy and girl get into a transaction what they will give and take.There is a strong economic content in

this. Hence this demand of every girl to get a highly educated and those making a big amount in MNC jobs. Boys want a working girl instead of a few or pieces of gold.

Parents of both sides chip in and see they get their couple of pennies for their old age from both boy and girl.

Economics is the basis of all marriages, most think of arranged marriage as a barter deal If we give anything , we want it returned with interest.

Hence my contention nothing else matters if a TB is educated and gets a good income. All other things like horoscope are irrelevant -only to be revoked to reject an

undesirable boy or girl.

Being born a brahmin ties one to some rituals which are needed at marriage, funerals and some more events and ceremonies.Who wears a thread except on occassions?

Many girls would like to hide their thalis or leave them beneath their pillows.They are taken out when inlaws descend on them.

Again vegetarianism is a hang up. So most transact being veg. home and anything outside.

All this are coping mechanism in modern living.

Where is love in all this?

Is there any unconditional giving and sharing with another without expectations. Probably not.

To love anyone one must love oneself first.Unless we are pleasant within ourself , we cannot give more of ourself to anybody.Thats why I tend to think, friendships can

unite and bond. One can share at atleast at mental level and enjoy the benefits of being together.There needs to be love in marriage.

For that to happen , arranged marriages are hardly the key.If youngsters bond with each other and not bring brahmin culture into it, they will make good relationships

on basis of friendship and understanding

 

[yesmohan]

We have a wide circle of relatives and friends who are vegetarians and vegans, living in India and abroad. :thumb:

In eating habits, some modern boys are " Veetula Eli; Veliyila Puli ."

 

[Raji Ram]

........... It is understandable to me to focus on similar background and culture while seeking an alliance. If a person lacks that culture but claims to have the brahmin tag, in what way does that represent a qualification? That is a fake ID because it does not represent the TB culture. ..........

Very well said, Sir!

 

[Vaagmi]

In this forum, I am frequently coming across this "liberal advice" to forget the brahmin origins. Sometime it is from a superior "I know better. You are a relic from the past millennium because you still think brahmins are different" Jnanis and it is sometimes from the persuasive " varna is different. But there is no brahmins by birth. Encourage girls and boys to marry as they want (read here "in IC or IR alliances")". But I also find there is a common denominator in these advices. That is these are people living far away from the bulk of our community who live here in Tamilnadu. They very sincerely believe that they have become "liberated" and would dispense advice to the TBs living here in Tamilnadu with a யாம் பெற்ற இன்பம் (துன்பம்?) பெறுக இவ்வையகம் kind of elan. Many of these people have already suffered a wayward child's indiscretion in their life and try to sort of justify to themselves what happened in their family.

There is no use repeating to these people that there are hundreds of within-the-community arranged marriages happening every year in Tamilnadu and the couples live happily free from strife. There is no use repeating to these people that brahmin community is a gene bank which is a treasure house (with all its implications). There is no use telling these people that they are losing a precious treasure with every IC/IR marriage. It is as if they are suffering from a kind of stockholm syndrome.

The least that these great jnanis can do is to keep their wisdom to themselves.

We, the brahmins of Tamilnadu are happy living our lives with our belief system, cultural values and within the community marriages. So we request the jnanis to keep their mouths shut and mind their business attending to their mixed breed grandchildren, their mischief and misdeeds.

Thanks. We have no time for you and your lectures. Please get lost. LOL.

RRji, you expected me to reply and I have done that. LOL.

 

[tks]

"TB Culture" may be alive and well with some families holding onto the Brahmin tag. But many Brahmin tag holders are clueless about their heritage and culture.

It is understandable to me to focus on similar background and culture while seeking an alliance. If a person lacks that culture but claims to have the brahmin tag, in what way does that represent a qualification? That is a fake ID because it does not represent the TB culture.

Vegetarianism happens to be just one of the cultural practices among TB families though there are vegetarians in all other castes also.
Seeing animal flesh as food is alien to the TB culture that I know. If anyone drinks booze, or eat all that moved or could move, I feel that such people are far removed from the TB culture I know.

In talking about culture, I am not talking about Varna at all. It is not the same as caste which is based on birth only.


Superstition in the form of evolving horoscope rules is another curse on the TB culture because I know many that did not go forward with suitable alliance because of fear of what their horoscope predicted. I know a few in their 50s and 60s alone (mainly women) because their parents kept postponing or they were rejected for their stars.

So my suggestion is to do away with the tag of brahmana and instead stay focused on cultural and character aspects. If two people are raised in a city like Delhi they may far more in common than simply some cultural practices of their ancestors that they may not be following.

Second is to reject the horoscope aspects in seeking alliance.

I think most significant part is, allowing those that want to marry to interact as friends over the phone, over each other's home in the presence of elders and over skype .

If they feel a sense of connection and the families feel they can feel a sense of connection the chance of success of their marriage is high. This can break down barriers between subsects, Iyer/Iyengar and even TB-NB in certain cases while arranging a lasting marriage

I wanted to amend the above for clarity with a PS and instead decided a post since there is more to convey.

1. If someone has a Brahmana Tag (Kula) and are reasonably well versed with the TB culture and living the culture regardless of where they live, the best option is to seek alliances within similar Kula with some adaptations as needed for sub-sect etc. There is still a need in today's world for two incomes to run a family in middle and upper middle class level. In such cases it is better for the boy and girl to have limited interactions before the wedding to make sure there is mutual acceptance.

2. If someone has reached an age which is considered past prime, then drop all caste tags and look for compatibility across wider spectrum of castes. One of my distant nephews (TB) born and raised in North India all his life could not find anyone suitable till he was 34. I think his parents widened the circle and he ended up marrying (arranged marriage) to someone in a nearby town who only speaks Hindi (and does not have even the Brahmin tag). He is happily married with two children and his wife supported his mother in her last years so wonderfully, that it was indeed a blessing .

3. If someone is clueless about TB culture for most part other than spell names of some functions they are better off forgetting the tag. This includes all those who eat flesh and drink alcohol as a way of life. Sometimes parent in their focus on money and prestige are likely to overlook these habits but they must realize that such a person is carrying a Brahmana tag due to tradition only and does not represent the TB culture. In such cases it is again better for those getting married to know each other directly via controlled social meetings before the wedding.


Over the years I have participated in this forum just when I have some time to kill/spend. However, it has taught me one thing.

My world view of TB culture is based on my family (parents, siblings, other elders), my grand parents and my wife's family. My children have had direct exposure to all of them due to yearly visits over summer months in their formative years. They follow TB customs, are vegetarians, can cook South Indian meal well and do not drink alcohol. (Yes my son and I wear our Poonal etc)

We are not alone in this, and there are many families I know where we live that follow TB customs not because of any mandates but because of understanding significance.

One thing I have not come across until my exposure to this forum is that, among those with TB tag there are few who have adopted meanness and narrow-mindedness as a way of life. I would like to think there are very few such families.

My suggestion for anyone seeking alliance is to stay away from such families even if they have TB tag and follows some aspects of the TB culture.

In other words generosity of mind, kindness, and acceptance of others is very important for happy life than even just the TB tag while seeking an alliance.

 

[prasad1]

TKSji,
Some wear the meanness and narrow mindedness as badge of honor.
Look at Donald Trump, ans similarly in this forum.

 

[renuka]

TKS Ji...I hope you do not mind me saying this..but it seems to you that feel vegetarianism,sattva lifestyle and knowing a smattering of Hindu culture by a Non TB should suffice in a TB and Non TB alliance that you feel it would be a better alliance than with a name sake Brahmin(Brahmabandhu).


Compatibility in my opinion is not having similar habits...its about the ability to adapt,understand and have a sense of familiarity.

One can only actually adapt if one is familiar with a mindset or lifestyle.

I would give an example..Just say a Non TB is vegetarian(vegan sometimes for prolonged months).. read Sanskrit text daily,does not have gun licence...never landed in jail...no criminal record(well..kind of non violent)..does not drink/smoke..loves religious philosophy, adhere to daily Yoga practice etc..but on a personal basis he/she do not adhere to any specific culture.

He/She finds all forms of cultural practices rather suffocating and choose to be totally non ritualistic and does not display signs and symbols of his/her religion.

He/She does not really define his/her personal beliefs.

I feel such a person will not be able to adapt to a TB lifestyle that requires a lot of cultural practice adherence and there is bound to be conflict.

One the other hand..a person who is a TB who does not really live like one..would not really find the cultural adherence of his/her TB spouse as conflicting cos he/she is used to seeing it..it has been coded in his/her mind by his ancestors who practiced the culture..so there is no conflict even though he/she might not actually live like a TB.

 

[krish44]

Ref post #289
!. Interaction between boy and girl is acceptable whether traditional or not.Extent of interaction may be a matter of debate. This was not the case forty years back. So all

have seen wisdom in liberalisation .


2.The times of past prime age marriage is already arrived . Educated, career oriented girls do not consider marriage before they are 28yrs. Thats the brahmin girls average

age for marriage.So most are compromising on subsect as a minimum and also yield on sect -vaishnavite or shivaite and try for brahmins from other states of india -

like AP or karnataka if not UP and bihar.There is a very large section of boys[?] in age group 30-45 yrs unable to get matches if they they are average earners , and

academically not very proficient. This is the social reality that traditional brahmins are refusing to face.

3. One might hold on to caste signs, rituals as a means of protecting oneself from cultural invasion when living in a foreign country with liberal values. They can try to

boast, they have preserved brahmin culture. But when they visit india they are shocked that india of old has moved on and does not value what they think they are

preserving.

There might be some diehards in remote portions in deep south india still mouthing conservative thoughts and trying to adopt a higher than you attitude. Life will teach

them a lesson in times to come when their own kith and kin will refuse to accept them in their fold.

To imply those who are traditional are noble and others with liberal mindset are mean and narrow minded is crass foolishness.

TB tag for many is convenient mask to cover their misdeeds.They are being taught a lesson by their educated and high earning women folk.

 

[tks]

TKS Ji...I hope you do not mind me saying this..but it seems to you that feel vegetarianism,sattva lifestyle and knowing a smattering of Hindu culture by a Non TB should suffice in a TB and Non TB alliance that you feel it would be a better alliance than with a name sake Brahmin(Brahmabandhu).


Compatibility in my opinion is not having similar habits...its about the ability to adapt,understand and have a sense of familiarity.

One can only actually adapt if one is familiar with a mindset or lifestyle.

I would give an example..Just say a Non TB is vegetarian(vegan sometimes for prolonged months).. read Sanskrit text daily,does not have gun licence...never landed in jail...no criminal record(well..kind of non violent)..does not drink/smoke..loves religious philosophy, adhere to daily Yoga practice etc..but on a personal basis he/she do not adhere to any specific culture.

He/She finds all forms of cultural practices rather suffocating and choose to be totally non ritualistic and does not display signs and symbols of his/her religion.

He/She does not really define his/her personal beliefs.

I feel such a person will not be able to adapt to a TB lifestyle that requires a lot of cultural practice adherence and there is bound to be conflict.

One the other hand..a person who is a TB who does not really live like one..would not really find the cultural adherence of his/her TB spouse as conflicting cos he/she is used to seeing it..it has been coded in his/her mind by his ancestors who practiced the culture..so there is no conflict even though he/she might not actually live like a TB.

In a mixed alliance of any kind, there is no mandate to follow TB culture or the culture of the other. The couple often discover what is right on their own. I have written about couples (White woman marrying Indian TB and vice versa) we have known. Many have adjusted well because they have discovered character matters the most.

Coding of mind by ancestors and other such thinking do not have a basis . I do not want to get into this anymore because it is unproductive . Let me just make a statement and move on. Such a thinking comes from body-centric identification and the thinking that the body determines the mind. It is also driven by pollution of Christianity into Hindu thinking (like the Original sin has passed through generations) .


One can say that a Jiva may have taken birth in a given body owing to its Sanskara and Prarabdha karma. So a TB family could end up having a child that can go totally against all customs.


When a person has no clue of the TB culture, they should find someone more compatible to their current life style. by dropping the TB tag.
I have not suggested replicating the TB culture with such people.

I have supported the point of view that character, broadness of mind and abilities to accept & respect people who are different to be far more significant in a marriage.

TB and non-TB alliance is only an option to consider if either is unable to find someone acceptable within their community. There are many reasons why someone cannot get married - their horoscope may have issues, they are clueless about own culture etc. In such cases rather than not getting married my recommendation is to let go the superstitions and let go the TB tag.


We follow TB culture in USA not to make a statement to anyone but because we know the symbolic significance in depth. The understanding drives the actions and hence there is no mandates in our household for example.

 

[a-TB]

In this forum, I am frequently coming across this "liberal advice" to forget the brahmin origins. Sometime it is from a superior "I know better. You are a relic from the past millennium because you still think brahmins are different" Jnanis and it is sometimes from the persuasive " varna is different. But there is no brahmins by birth. Encourage girls and boys to marry as they want (read here "in IC or IR alliances")". But I also find there is a common denominator in these advices. That is these are people living far away from the bulk of our community who live here in Tamilnadu. They very sincerely believe that they have become "liberated" and would dispense advice to the TBs living here in Tamilnadu with a யாம் பெற்ற இன்பம் (துன்பம்?) பெறுக இவ்வையகம் kind of elan. Many of these people have already suffered a wayward child's indiscretion in their life and try to sort of justify to themselves what happened in their family.

There is no use repeating to these people that there are hundreds of within-the-community arranged marriages happening every year in Tamilnadu and the couples live happily free from strife. There is no use repeating to these people that brahmin community is a gene bank which is a treasure house (with all its implications). There is no use telling these people that they are losing a precious treasure with every IC/IR marriage. It is as if they are suffering from a kind of stockholm syndrome.

The least that these great jnanis can do is to keep their wisdom to themselves.

We, the brahmins of Tamilnadu are happy living our lives with our belief system, cultural values and within the community marriages. So we request the jnanis to keep their mouths shut and mind their business attending to their mixed breed grandchildren, their mischief and misdeeds.

Thanks. We have no time for you and your lectures. Please get lost. LOL.

RRji, you expected me to reply and I have done that. LOL.

OMG, in this five star thread I think this one takes the cake LOL

"There is no use repeating to these people that brahmin community is a gene bank which is a treasure house (with all its implications). There is no use telling these people that they are losing a precious treasure with every IC/IR marriage"

There is so much wisdom in this for all the morons of the world !

Brahmin gene bank is a treasure house - wow, I never thought I carry those genes!

I think to support Mr Vaagmi, someone should dedicate a sperm bank for this cause.
In order to not lose the precious treasure, I think eligible TB men (certified by an authority like Mr Vaagmi) can make donation at the bank. Not sure if priests are needed.

All sects of TB can be preserved in this actual treasure house

LOL LOL

 

[sangom]

OMG, in this five star thread I think this one takes the cake LOL

"There is no use repeating to these people that brahmin community is a gene bank which is a treasure house (with all its implications). There is no use telling these people that they are losing a precious treasure with every IC/IR marriage"

There is so much wisdom in this for all the morons of the world !

Brahmin gene bank is a treasure house - wow, I never thought I carry those genes!

I think to support Mr Vaagmi, someone should dedicate a sperm bank for this cause.
In order to not lose the precious treasure, I think eligible TB men (certified by an authority like Mr Vaagmi) can make donation at the bank. Not sure if priests are needed.

All sects of TB can be preserved in this actual treasure house

LOL LOL

Gene Bank or not, my view is that there are many advantages in marrying a boy/girl from the same caste (even sub-caste and region, if possible) which are completely lost in IC/IR or even same caste marriage from different regions. Of course, today, the wind is blowing in various other directions. I believe it is mostly due to the brain washing of youngsters by various media and our TB girls & boys seem to be much influenced by these brainwashing effects. Added to that is the virtual absence of any pressure from the community (i.e., TB community) which appears to be thinking that it is being "progressive" by being active applauders of all such abnormal marriages. While individuals cannot do anything against this prevalent trend in the TB community, this trend does not mean sanctified truth which is what I said in the first sentence above.

 

[prasad1]

Brahmin gene bank is a treasure house - wow, I never thought I carry those genes!

LOL LOL

Slight spelling difference.
Brahman Breed.

You can buy the gene from
http://www.brahman.org/buy-brahman/bulls/
I am sure you are not talking about them.

 

[prasad1]

There is a tradition dividing Indian’s Brahmin communities in two, on a north-south split. The above partition does not perfectly reflect the oral history and custom, but it is very close. The Brahmins of South India are a particularly homogeneous lot. I’d bet that their diversity is a function of cultural evolution and adaptation to local circumstances, not disparate origins. Rather, they derive from some initial migration from a specific North Indian Brahmin community, and then admixed somewhat with another South Indian population (explaining their profiles being closer to the Southern average than that of Northern Brahmins).


The campus of the IGIB, India’s secretive Institute of Genomics & Integrative Biology, is set in a leafy part of north Delhi, where the wide roads and clean pavements are a relic of ‘Civil Lines’ — a colonial-era term used to distinguish military streets from the civilian.

Dr Arijit Mukhopadhyay was a specialist in eye genetics, a small, quick man in his mid-30s with ill-fitted trousers, a short-sleeved shirt and closed-toed sandals.


“Does the genetic landscape map reveal anything about caste?” I asked. “Some people tell doctors that they like sperm donors to come from their own caste, to get the right genes.”
Dr Mukerji was dismissive. “There’s no logic to talking about caste and sperm and which community has better genes. Indians all have opinions, but the caste system has no genetic basis.’

http://www.hindustantimes.com/books/a-brahmin-in-your-genes/story-shvgM71lsCT366wBQ76jnK.html

 

[vgane]

Recently I happened to witness some emotions!

The elder TB sister lost her daughter to ICIR marriage

The younger sister of the above sister lost her daughter too to ICIR marriage

The 2 sisters met after a long time

The younger sister was looking at an arranged alliance for her second daughter

They were not sure whether alliance would actually materialize or not!

When the alliance materialized the two sisters were in great joy..Atleast there is now one case in the family where it is an arranged TB marriage..

The 2 sisters were literally yearning for it silently & praying to various Gods for the alliance to take shape!

When someone mentioned this to me I realized that there is a kindle of hope!

As Sangom Sir lamented about brainwashing of our children by external forces inimical to TB's we need to educate our children too (not brainwash) in a positive sense to frustrate the opposition!

 

[CHANDRU1849]

Parental guidance is important in retaining one's culture. Earlier, Bs were living together in places called 'Agraharam'.Now it is gone. Now Bs are living with various categories of people. Hence, it is far more important to educate the children the importance of B culture. Added to this, regular meeting is also necessary to avoid further erosion.

 

[biswa]

I think to support Mr Vaagmi, someone should dedicate a sperm bank for this cause.
In order to not lose the precious treasure, I think eligible TB men (certified by an authority like Mr Vaagmi) can make donation at the bank. Not sure if priests are needed.

All sects of TB can be preserved in this actual treasure house

LOL LOL

Yup, I thought the same thing, very similar to seed bank currently maintained in case a terrible catastrophe wipes out the eco-system.

Only one question: why no egg bank? Unless women are not supposed to carry the "Brahmin gene" and are only the "vessel". Of course if the Y chromosome is the only one that matters, then IC marriages are not a big deal, because all
marriages are IC marriages as only the male can be "certified" to carry the desired gene.

Kind of a paradox, isn't it?