ஊர் அறிந்த பிராமணனுக்குப் பூணூல் எதற்கு?

[manoharkumar]

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Hi I am new to this forum but this question caught my attention. We have to search for brahmins in TN as "Enge Brahmanan?". As fa ras in know the wearing of the Poonool denotes the child coming of age and has started realising the world around him. The wearer is supposed to be pure and it distinguishes him from others. The bachelor wear single poonul with three strands, and the married one wear two poonul. The three strands denotes thre debts that one should not forget. To his teacher, to his parents & ancestors and third one to respect the sages and rishis. May be more learned ones can share more. thanks.

 

[mahakavi]

"In our place, everyone knows us and so we can be ourselves.
In a new place no one knows us. So we can be ourselves."

This quote is similar to the one I sport about laws.
Laws are always useless. Those who abide by them don't need them. Those who break them don't heed them.

 

[mahakavi]

Mangalsutra starts with a "M"!

May be that is why it is made in the shape of a "M!"

Man or Male who ties it also starts with "M"

The lady Mangai who receive it also starts with "M"

Marriage also starts with "M"

Mandapam the veneu of the event also starts with"M"

Mitra who attend the function also starts with "M"

Did we have English as the language in Hindu ceremonies to use the English letter M for mAnglayam?

In Sanskrit or Thamizh it is मा or மா to start the word mAngalyam
man is purush or AN and woman is stree or peN
Then why the English letter M?
Here is the typical picture of a mAnglayam

I haven't figured out what each piece there stands for as also the exact shape. The two pairs are meant to be one from each family (bride and groom). I also heard that the entire mAngalyam is made by the groom's family since it is the groom who ties it around the bride's neck. Originally the gold pieces were on a sacred yellow string.

 

[Visalakshi Ramani]

This one haa a naamam and must be an Iyangar thaali.
Iyer thaali has a Sivalingam right in the middle and at times
a Sivalingam and Meenakshi on the two halves.

Did we have English as the language in Hindu ceremonies to use the English letter M for mAnglayam?

In Sanskrit or Thamizh it is मा or மா to start the word mAngalyam
man is purush or AN and woman is stree or peN
Then why the English letter M?
Here is the typical picture of a mAnglayam

I haven't figured out what each piece there stands for as also the exact shape. The two pairs are meant to be one from each family (bride and groom). I also heard that the entire mAngalyam is made by the groom's family since it is the groom who ties it around the bride's neck. Originally the gold pieces were on a sacred yellow string.

 

[Visalakshi Ramani]

Some more models of maangalyam.

 

[Visalakshi Ramani]

"M"s :bump2:!!!

dear VR !
your M list made me to think of other Ms
muhurtham also starts with M
mantram ..do...
marriyathai..do..
after marriage you get machunan,matchini,Mamiyar or Mamanaar or bothor all
somebody get murukku (eatable )or mappillai murukku(adviced not to have )
marriage is union of two M(manasu of male &mangai)
it requires blessings from good hearts (manasu )
the marriage should continue even after becoming mootharignar &moothati
somebody expects moi(gift ) in marriage
when tieing the knot known as Muditchu
many parents get the feeling of Mandai kanchu pochu
guruvayurappan

 

[Iyyarooraan]

Good effort Madam lest people should forget. Particularly men, many of them might not know what their wife is wearing. Any number is inscribed thereon to show - First wife, Second wife.

 

[mahakavi]

• Whatever the custom in the North, women wearing tAli since their marriage has been in practice in the Tamizh culture, probably since the Sangham times. SIvaka chintAmaNi mentions it:

நாண் உள் இட்டுச் சுடர் வீச
நல் மாணிக்க நகுதாலி
பேணி நல்லார் கழுத்து அணிந்து
பெருங்கண் கருமை விருந்து ஊட்டி

~nAN uL iTTuch chuDar vIsa
~nal mANikka ~nakutAli
pENi ~nallAr kazhuthtu aNi~ndu
peru~gkaN karumai viru~ndu UTTi
--sIvaka chintAmaNi, 2697

• ஐம்படைத்தாலி--aimpaDaithtAli was a protective necklet that a child was made to wear on the fitth day of birth during the Sangham times:

தாலி=ஐம்படைத்தாலி: காத்தற்கடவுளாகிய திருமாலின் சங்கம், சக்கரம், கதை, கட்கம், சார்ங்கம் என்னும் ஆயுதங்களின் வடிவமாக அமைக்கப்படும் ஓர் ஆபரணம். இதனைப் பஞ்சாயுதமென்றும், பிறந்த ஐந்தாநாளில் பிள்ளைகளுக்கு இதை அணிவித்தல் மரபென்றுங் கூறுவர்.

The tAli a marrying woman was made to wear probably originated from this practice.

• Some terms connected with tAli:
தாலிக்கட்டு=கலியாணம்
தாலிக்காரி=சுமங்கலி
தாலிக்கொடி=தாலி கோப்பதற்கான பொற்சரடு
தாலிக்கொழுந்து, தாலிக்கோவை=தாலியுருவோடு கோப்பதற்கான பல்வகை உருக்கள்
தாலிப்பெட்டி=தாலி வைக்கும் பொன்னகத்துப் பெட்டி (யாழ்.அக.)
தாலிப்பொட்டு=வட்டமாகச் செய்த தாலியுரு
தாலிப்பொருத்தம்=இரச்சுப் பொருத்தம்

அச்சுத்தாலி=காசுமாலை (திவ்.திருப்பா.7.வ்யா)
ஆமைத்தாலி=ஆமை வடிவுள்ள தாலி. ’ஆமத்தாலி பூண்ட...’ (திவ்.பெரியாழ்.1.7.2)
கட்டுக்கழுத்தி=கணவன் உயிருடன் உள்ள, தாலி கட்டிய பெண்
சங்குத்தாலி=சங்கினாற் செய்யப்படும் மகளிரணியும் தாலி
நவதாலி=நவக்கிரஹ சாந்தியாக விளக்கிடு கலியாணத்த்

(Source: Tamil lexicon)

I was not aware that sIvaka cintAmaNi mentions the tAlI for a bride if the verse mentioned is attributed to the bride. Is it because the author tiruttakka dEvar was a Jain and he probably brought vEdic customs in his poem? ANDAL in her nAcciyAr tirumozhi (vAraNamAyiram chapter) dreams of her wedding to nArAyaNan and she never mentions tAlI there. The wedding is symbolized by pANigrahaNam (similar to SItA's wedding to Rama---there is no tAlI there too)
மைத்துனன் நம்பி மதுசூதன் வந்து,என்னைக் (maittunan nambi madusUdhan vandennaik)
கைத்தலம் பற்றக் கனாக்கண்டேன் தோழீநான்(kaittalam paRRak kanAkkaNDEn tOzhInAn) 6.6

Also isn't "aimbaDaittAlI" with the 5 elements of Vishnu's instruments used to decorate a male child?

Finally "AmaittAlI" is also worn by child Krishna (in PeriyAzhwAr pAsuram 1.7.2) to represent the KUrma avatAram.

tAlI in general in ancient times was just a necklace made of whatever material as a decorative piece. The custom to make it as a mAngalyam probably crept in after the middle ages.

Also in silappadikAram iLangO aDigaL does not mention the tAlI in KOvalan-KaNNagi wedding. He only mentions the priests chanting the scriptures while the bride and groom go around the fire. Agni sAkshi and hand holding were the required items those days.

 

[Raji Ram]

............. Iyer thaali has a Sivalingam right in the middle and at times a Sivalingam and Meenakshi on the two halves.

There is one more variety - Thulasi chedi.

A few Kerala pattar families make this model.

There are variations in this model, like:

mElpoo - plant facing up single / double; keezhpoo - plant facing down single / double.

The double plants have the Sun and Moon icons added also.

Here it is........ Courtesy - Google images.

 

[Raji Ram]

.......... Also in silappadikAram iLangO aDigaL does not mention the tAlI in KOvalan-KaNNagi wedding. He only mentions the priests chanting the scriptures while the bride and groom go around the fire. Agni sAkshi and hand holding were the required items those days.

We have had discussions about ThAli in a few other threads, earlier.

Sri. Sangom, then very active participant, used to mention often that the 'thirumAngalyam' concept was added

only later in our custom and it is not mentioned in our scripts.

 

[renuka]

We have had discussions about ThAli in a few other threads, earlier.

Sri. Sangom, then very active participant, used to mention often that the 'thirumAngalyam' concept was added

only later in our custom and it is not mentioned in our scripts.

No wonder there is an option for this:

Kalyanam than kattikkittu odi polama
illa odi poiyu kalyanam than katti kalamma

Thalliya than kattikkittu pethukkalamma illa
pulla kutti pethukittu kattikkalamma?​

 

[Raji Ram]

Dear Renu,

Some one was seriously asking whether 'pooNool' ceremony could be conducted AFTER the wedding!!

It seems to be an I C wedding and the groom did not have his pooNool till then. So, new lines:

'pooNoolaththAn pOttukittu kattikkalAmA - illa

kattikittu pooNoolaththAn pOttukkalAmA?'

PS: This thread is about pooNool, right??

 

[Raghy]

Greetings.

I see a long discussion here on 'Thali'. ( Personally, i wouldn't mind a 'thali' now - a full course meal!). Thali is an indication to say the said girl belonged to a man. The popular belief that thali denotes a girl is married doesn't hold water. When her husband dies, still she is married, but a widow; but the thali is removed. When you analyse that, the thali gets removed to denote she is not owned by anyone after the death of her husband. It sounds ugly, but the practice only points to that direction. Sorry!

 

[Raghy]

Dear Renu,

Some one was seriously asking whether 'pooNool' ceremony could be conducted AFTER the wedding!!

It seems to be an I C wedding and the groom did not have his pooNool till then. So, new lines:

'pooNoolaththAn pOttukittu kattikkalAmA - illa

kattikittu pooNoolaththAn pOttukkalAmA?'

PS: This thread is about pooNool, right??

Sowbagyavathy Raji Ram, Greetings.

To my knowledge, even non-brahmins are asked to wear poonool during the wedding ceremony. They don't have poonool before; wouldn't have poonool after the ceremony.

Cheers!

 

[renuka]

Ok now for some real life Thali stories..I have lots of them.

When I was newly married and was working in a government hospital there used to be a Tamil elderly nurse who used to wear a big Pottu and Thali and she used to keep bugging me daily "doctor why don't you wear Thali and Pottu..I am sure you will look prettier, as a married woman you should wear it blah blah blah"

I never used to tell her anything but I just wished she would stop bugging me.
Then one day when Diwali was around the corner I asked her how is her preparations for Diwali coming up and to my surprise she said "doc I celebrate Christmas cos my husband is a christian"

I was "what!! You mean to say you are not even a Hindu?"

She was "I was a Hindu but I converted to Christianity when married my husband"

I started laughing and told her "My dear...you kept asking me to wear Thali and Pottu but you gave up your religion for a man..I might not wear my Thali and Pottu but I am a Hindu"

So you see...most people just hold on to tradition but internally they might not hold on to religion and even convert.

 

[Raji Ram]

Dear Raghy Sir,

The question about pooNool ceremony after the wedding was raised only in this forum, sometime back!!

Regards........

 

[mahakavi]

Good effort Madam lest people should forget. Particularly men, many of them might not know what their wife is wearing. Any number is inscribed thereon to show - First wife, Second wife.

Second wife gets double the units. If there were children by the first wife, their names can be inscribed too.:shocked:

 

[renuka]

Sowbagyavathy Raji Ram, Greetings.

To my knowledge, even non-brahmins are asked to wear poonool during the wedding ceremony. They don't have poonool before; wouldn't have poonool after the ceremony.

Cheers!

The only time I see NB wearing poonal here is at funerals.

 

[mahakavi]

Greetings.

I see a long discussion here on 'Thali'. ( Personally, i wouldn't mind a 'thali' now - a full course meal!). Thali is an indication to say the said girl belonged to a man. The popular belief that thali denotes a girl is married doesn't hold water. When her husband dies, still she is married, but a widow; but the thali is removed. When you analyse that, the thali gets removed to denote she is not owned by anyone after the death of her husband. It sounds ugly, but the practice only points to that direction. Sorry!

No, tAlI does not mean the wife is owned by the husband. It was originally conceived as a bondage with the assurance that the husband will support the wife lifelong (when women were financially dependent on men---first father, then husband and so on). Assuming the ownership, how do you prove it if the wife denies it. The tAli does not have the husband's picture or some license specific to the man. In the old days going around the fire pit holding hands was good enough to claim the validity of marriage.

To answer your second question, when the husband dies the tAli is removed to denote the departure of the husband who tied it. In that sense she is a widow and also the marriage is terminated. When a divorce occurs, the couple walk away from each other and you say they are not married anymore, right? The same applies to the widow. She is not married anymore because there is no physical presence of the husband. Removing the tAlI does help the widow if she wants to get married again

 

[Raghy]

The only time I see NB wearing poonal here is at funerals.

Sowbagyavathy Renuka, Greetings.

In most cases, participants of any ceremony conducted by satrigal/vadhyar usually involves the participants wearing a poonool.

Cheers!

 

[renuka]

Sowbagyavathy Renuka, Greetings.

In most cases, participants of any ceremony conducted by satrigal/vadhyar usually involves the participants wearing a poonool.

Cheers!

I guess I have attended more funerals than any other functions.
Raghy..out here for NB..the Brahmin priest does not conduct the funeral ceremony.
We depend on a person who is a NB and well versed with final rites and he also makes the person doing the final rites wear a poonal.

In Malaysia only Brahmins get a priest for their funerals but northern Indian priests conduct funerals for any northern Indian irrespective of his/her caste(they do not conduct for south indians though)

 

[Raghy]

Sowbagyavathy Renuka,

....Raghy..out here for NB..the Brahmin priest does not conduct the funeral ceremony...

That is rough. But most Gurukkal ( the ones work in the temples) don't conduct funeral ceremonies. Only Sastrigal conduct these ceremonies. But then, it doesn't really matter who conducts it though. No matter who conducts, the 'kartha' is the person on whose behalf it is conducted. Kartha would usually wear poonool.

Cheers!

 

[renuka]

Sowbagyavathy Renuka,



That is rough. But most Gurukkal ( the ones work in the temples) don't conduct funeral ceremonies. Only Sastrigal conduct these ceremonies. But then, it doesn't really matter who conducts it though. No matter who conducts, the 'kartha' is the person on whose behalf it is conducted. Kartha would usually wear poonool.

Cheers!

Dear Raghy,

But not so for northern Indian priests.
Recently when my maternal grandmum expired her funeral was conducted by a Northern Indian Brahmin priest who also works in the temple as the Gurukkal there.

I know we NB south indians here get a raw deal cos the people we depend on do not even recite mantras correctly.
Actually I feel that its better we learn up the rites and rituals ourselves and do it ourselves if needed.

I was noticing that the Northern Indian priest who conducted my grandmums funeral did a very simple rite with simple basic mantras.
It was not complicated at all.

BTW Sashtrigals only come for the 16th day Antayesthi and annual Shraddha.
That too they give different versions..they say lighting a Moksha Deepam is enough with a simple Pooja and do not really recommend Pinda Daan on yearly basis.

 

[Raghy]

Sri. Mahakavi, Greetings.

No, tAlI does not mean the wife is owned by the husband. It was originally conceived as a bondage with the assurance that the husband will support the wife lifelong (when women were financially dependent on men---first father, then husband and so on). Assuming the ownership, how do you prove it if the wife denies it. The tAli does not have the husband's picture or some license specific to the man. In the old days going around the fire pit holding hands was good enough to claim the validity of marriage.

From what I heard, in the initial days mangalya dharanam was not part of the ceremony. It was added in the later days. Yes, initially, husband's name was written and it hung around her neck. The girl did not have any right to deny that. Well, if she denied one ownership, someone else would be dragging her anyway. So, what is the use? Even now the thali is an indication of ownership; it indicates to what community that woman belong to. We have specific thali for specific community.. then she says who her husband is. But husbands don't wear thali, nothing taken away when he becomes a widower.

Cheers!

 

[Raghy]

Sowbagyavathy Renuka,

Actually I feel that its better we learn up the rites and rituals ourselves and do it ourselves if needed.

I like that. In fact, that is the most appropriate way to do it too. The whole faith is in our mind. We don't even have to do the outward rituals like others. Still it should be counted. The way the vathyars charge for conducting ceremonies, the day is not too far away for others to take up 'do it yourself' ceremonies refering to a book.

Cheers!