Tamil Brahmins marriage

valli · Oct 28, 2011

இன்னும் இந்த வழக்கம் தேவையா?
சமீபத்தில், ஒரு திருமணத்திற்காக கோவை சென்றிருந்தேன். அவர்கள், பிராமண வகுப்பை சேர்ந்தவர்கள் என்பதால், அவர்களின் சம்பிரதாயப்படி, தாலி கட்டும் நேரத்தில், மணமகள், தன் தந்தையின் மடியில் அமர்ந்து கொள்ள வேண்டும். அந்த மணமகளுக்கோ லேட் மேரேஜ்; 30 வயதிருக்கும். இரட்டை நாடி உடம்பு; எடை, 90 கிலோ இருக் கும். மணமகளின் தந்தையோ, மிக வும் ஒல்லி; அவருக்கு, 70 வயது இருக்கும். முகூர்த்த நேரத்தில், மணமகளை அவர் தன் மடியில் அமர்த்தி, தாலி கட்டும் தருணத்தில், மணமகளின் உடல் எடை யால், காலில் ரத்த ஓட்ட மின்றி, மூச்சுத் திணறி, அரை மயக்கத்தில் விழுந்து விட்டார். மணமேடையே சிறிது நேரம் அமர்க்களப்பட்டு விட்டது.
முன்பு, பால்ய வயதில் திருமணம் நடத்திய போது, மிரட்சி விலக, தந்தை மடியில் உட்கார வைத்து திருமணம் நடத்தினர். இதை, இன்றும் சம்பிரதாயம் என்ற பெயரில் கடைபிடித்து, அவஸ்தைக்கு உள்ளாவதில் என்ன பயன்?
காலத்துக்கு ஏற்ப உணவு, உடைகளில் ஏற்பட்ட மாற்றங் கள், பழைய சம்பிரதாயங்களிலும் ஏற்பட வேண்டும் என்பது தான், அன்றைக்கு விழாவுக்கு வந் திருந்த பலரின் குரலாகவும் இருந்தது. புது வாழ்க்கை, சந் தோஷத்துடன் அல்லவா துவங்க வேண்டும்!
— சசி பிரபு, சென்னை.

Dear Members

Just came across the above piece!

Maybe, some members would like to comment on this!?

Kind regards

Subramanian Natarajan · Oct 28, 2011

40 vayasula yaaru avara pulla pethuka sonna

sangom · Oct 28, 2011

Smt. Valli,

I appreciate your bringing this point. Thank you a lot. Many aspects of the Tabra marriage are anachronistic and can best be discarded. The above practice is one such. Almost all of us must have seen the "Meenakshi Kalyanam" statue in Madurai or its images (given below):

We find the bride's father absent and her brother doing the kanyaadaana by pouring water on to Siva's palm on which the bride's palm ought to have been placed (the representation is faulty to that extent). All three are standing. Why don't we emulate this from our Deities? Meenakshi here is not like the kovai bride, but even then Vishnu (at least the person who sculpted the statue) seems to have preferred a very decent way of doing the daanam.

Iyyarooraan · Oct 28, 2011

Enna Swami, kuzhandaikal ellaam venumna kidaikkuma. On the other hand the father must still be proud of being a parent to 90 kg! Ponnu koncham yochanai panniyirukkanumnu thonrukiradu.

vsubbu48 · Oct 28, 2011

Perhaps it is a lesson to the parents that they should not overfeed their children. Anyway, the point raised in the letter deserves consideration. Also the practice of uncle of the bridegroom carrying the later. When this practice was prevalent the boys would have been in their teens.

Nara · Oct 28, 2011

vsubbu48 said:
Perhaps it is a lesson to the parents that they should not overfeed their children. Anyway, the point raised in the letter deserves consideration. Also the practice of uncle of the bridegroom carrying the later. When this practice was prevalent the boys would have been in their teens.

I had a personal experience, I had to carry my nephew during his Upanayanam, an experience I have not forgotten till today

valli · Oct 29, 2011

Dear Shri Sangom

We find the bride's father absent and her brother doing the kanyaadaana by pouring water on to Siva's palm on which the bride's palm ought to have been placed (the representation is faulty to that extent). All three are standing. Why don't we emulate this from our Deities? Meenakshi here is not like the kovai bride, but even then Vishnu (at least the person who sculpted the statue) seems to have preferred a very decent way of doing the daanam.

That is a very good suggestion! I distant cousin of mine lost her father and for her marriage had to sit on her Chittappa's lap. She was not at all comfortable with that, but then who cares for the girl's feelings! 'Sampradayam' must always be followed!! As you said in your post - Many aspects of the Tabra marriage are anachronistic and can best be discarded.

Kind regards

valli · Oct 29, 2011

vsubbu48 said:
Perhaps it is a lesson to the parents that they should not overfeed their children. Anyway, the point raised in the letter deserves consideration. Also the practice of uncle of the bridegroom carrying the later. When this practice was prevalent the boys would have been in their teens.

Dear vsubbu48

By the time girls marry now, they are well and truly adults in their mid 20's. They are no longer young children overfed by their parents! Many of these girls also live in another city for work purposes!

The point raised by the author of the letter definitely needs consideration.

Are bridegrooms alone carried on the shoulders by uncles? Even the brides are carried, for the 'மாலை மாற்றுதல்'! This is a higly ridiculous and outdated practice according to me. The uncles suffer the weight and the groom and bride are in constant fear that they might fall down!! Completely unnecessary.

Nowadays it has become an ego issue! If one side has uncles to carry the party and the other does not, even சித்தப்பா,பெரியப்பா, அண்ணா and அத்திம்பேர் pitch in!!

Kind regards

amala · Oct 29, 2011

Ok personally speaking I just love this whole custom/idea of sitting on my dad's lap during thali kattu. Its the most special and unique thing and very intimate. This is the sole reason why I love the tambrahm style wedding. In fact i had decided years ago i want to sit on my dad's lap, whoever I marry, even if he isn't tb because i love this custom. This is probably the 1st and last chance i ever have of sitting on my dad's lap. We haven't done that since we were what? 11 perhaps....so yeah i don't care what anyone says. I shall insist on this

Having said that, of course it is upto the father/daughter to decide on this if one is too frail and the other weighty or something.

PS: This definitely beats the Telugu custom of having to put the bride in a basket or pot or some such and all her mamas (mother's brothers or cousin brothers) have to carry her to the mandapam. Probably in case she does a runner!

gushy0202 · Oct 29, 2011

very nice point brought up here... sometimes its un-convenient for the old dads

Subhalakshmi · Oct 29, 2011

I think the customs can change, but I would leave it to the girl and her father to decide if they want to follow the tradition.. both my daughters had the typical Iyer wedding and were no doubt quite embarrassed to sit on their dad's lap, but they did it since it was the traditional thing to do.. also it helped that they both are slim..

)

sangom · Oct 29, 2011

Even though I have only sons, I had the privilege to officiate as guardian for the marriage of my widower younger brother's daughter's marriage, because the sambandhi was a person steeped in all types of superstitious beliefs which he carried with him to the burning ghat! He would not allow a widower to do the kanyadaanam since his wife will not be there to pour the water from the panchapaatram.

When my brother's daughter sat on my lap I was feeling rather uneasy although I had carried her as a small child very many times. I think the father would also have felt the same way. It is my considered opinion that the adult girls (? women) who are brides today can very well be "gifted" in the Meenakshi Kalyanam style. If I had a daughter to be married I would have insisted on this practice, even if my daughter or my wife was for it.

Iyyarooraan · Oct 29, 2011

How about outsourcing the 'carrying the vadu-varan' jobs, to seat the girl (or woman!) on 'lap-top' etc.to some 6-pack gymnasts. It will add to the status of the "allies". Human nature is to get thrill out of misunderstanding the customs and behave funnily so that these can be reported and related jovially to amuse other morons!

valli · Oct 30, 2011

Dear Bushu

but I would leave it to the girl and her father to decide if they want to follow the tradition

Wish it was as simple as that!!

Kind regards

gushy0202 · Oct 30, 2011

Yes at the end of the day its their call to decide...

valli said:
Dear Bushu

Wish it was as simple as that!!

Kind regards

V.Natarajan · Oct 30, 2011

likes!

sarang · Oct 30, 2011

1. Many rituals can be performed only by dampathis - husband-wife team. For the boy too, if the father is a widower, only a couple can take part in the rituals.
2. "the sambandhi was a person steeped in all types of superstitious beliefs" - 'steeped in religious beliefs/traditions' is a better choice of words.
3. It is better not to officiate in such cases, when basic faith is lacking; after all a wedding is a solemn function.

sangom said:
Even though I have only sons, I had the privilege to officiate as guardian for the marriage of my widower younger brother's daughter's marriage, because the sambandhi was a person steeped in all types of superstitious beliefs which he carried with him to the burning ghat! He would not allow a widower to do the kanyadaanam since his wife will not be there to pour the water from the panchapaatram.

When my brother's daughter sat on my lap I was feeling rather uneasy although I had carried her as a small child very many times. I think the father would also have felt the same way. It is my considered opinion that the adult girls (? women) who are brides today can very well be "gifted" in the Meenakshi Kalyanam style. If I had a daughter to be married I would have insisted on this practice, even if my daughter or my wife was for it.

kunjuppu · Oct 30, 2011

sarang said:
1. Many rituals can be performed only by dampathis - husband-wife team. For the boy too, if the father is a widower, only a couple can take part in the rituals.
2. "the sambandhi was a person steeped in all types of superstitious beliefs" - 'steeped in religious beliefs/traditions' is a better choice of words.
3. It is better not to officiate in such cases, when basic faith is lacking; after all a wedding is a solemn function.

sarang,

where the practise jars our sensitivities, it may be better to call those superstitions and not proud traditions.

recently i attended a wedding in chennai where the bride's grandma in her 80s, widowed, but still maintaining in normal features (ie no disfigurements per se widowhood as prescribed by what you call 'religious beliefs/traditions' was sitting on the wedding dais through and through'.

something different even 20 years ago, where in another wedding, the bride's mother, hid herself in the interiors, even though she foot the bill for the whole wedding. at that time, even the most entreating plea from the bride, for her mother to witness the mangalya dharanam, was frowned and refused - by her own family 'elders'

sangom · Oct 30, 2011

sarang said:
1. Many rituals can be performed only by dampathis - husband-wife team. For the boy too, if the father is a widower, only a couple can take part in the rituals.
2. "the sambandhi was a person steeped in all types of superstitious beliefs" - 'steeped in religious beliefs/traditions' is a better choice of words.
3. It is better not to officiate in such cases, when basic faith is lacking; after all a wedding is a solemn function.

I have seen marriages of daughters of widower fathers in which the father did the rakshabandhan and also kanyadanam. But in those few cases the fathers were rich, and much respected by near relatives and the tabra community around them. Does this not show that your so-called religious beliefs can be changed according to the status of the persons involved?

I am aware that you view me as "the opposite camp" but it is not very creditable to discredit each and everything which the opposite camp may be writing. IMO such mindset also arises due to high religious indoctrination of mind and brain.

sarang · Oct 30, 2011

facile argument. If one wants to , he is superstitious; if he wants to go around then he uses his status; if one wants but is unable to do, he is a hypocrite; Tambram is doomed irrespective of what he does! He cannot redeem himself.

The story going around in tamilnadu, attributed to karunanidhi: we, the dmk lost the elections because cho iyer is the election commissioner.

On the flip side, all aidmk ministers, assembly members and party functionaries sport a bright vibuti, kunkum tilak and are active in all temple utsavams. Many dmk party members are also getting visibly religious; as their leaders (and wives) have started doing yagnas and pujas.

Where will this lead to?

sangom said:
I have seen marriages of daughters of widower fathers in which the father did the rakshabandhan and also kanyadanam. But in those few cases the fathers were rich, and much respected by near relatives and the tabra community around them. Does this not show that your so-called religious beliefs can be changed according to the status of the persons involved?

I am aware that you view me as "the opposite camp" but it is not very creditable to discredit each and everything which the opposite camp may be writing. IMO such mindset also arises due to high religious indoctrination of mind and brain.

anant1948 · Oct 30, 2011

These days marriages have become more of a social activity. More emphasis needs to be given to the vedic aspects. The Shastrigals should explain the significance of the mantrams uttered during the marriage. Tying of the mangalasutra is being considered as the main event and people rush to congratualte the bride and groom after the tying of the same. Actually, the main ritual starts after that and the Shastrigals words not to touch the bride and groom fall on deaf years. What is needed is to bring in awareness & perhaps the marriage invitation should highlight the points. Some have started printing the main events in the invitations. Reception precedes marriage and this is not the right way. Even before marriage, the couple are congratulated for getting 'married' though the actual marriage would take place the next day. In my opinion this could be avoided.

kunjuppu · Oct 30, 2011

anant1948 said:
These days marriages have become more of a social activity. More emphasis needs to be given to the vedic aspects. The Shastrigals should explain the significance of the mantrams uttered during the marriage. Tying of the mangalasutra is being considered as the main event and people rush to congratualte the bride and groom after the tying of the same. Actually, the main ritual starts after that and the Shastrigals words not to touch the bride and groom fall on deaf years. What is needed is to bring in awareness & perhaps the marriage invitation should highlight the points. Some have started printing the main events in the invitations. Reception precedes marriage and this is not the right way. Even before marriage, the couple are congratulated for getting 'married' though the actual marriage would take place the next day. In my opinion this could be avoided.

anant,

while i hear you, my suggestion to you, is to move in with the times.

this is the way it is nowadays, and instead of trying to swim against the current, why not embrace the changes. if the mantrams are not heard or heeded, it is because they are considered irrelevant.

the functions like oonjal or kasi yatrai is more a tamasha, though i am still waiting for atleast one marriage in my lifetime, where the groom, refuse to change his mind on the plead of the potential fil, and keeps on going and never returns to the mantapam

the maalai matral, i am unable to carry my nieces due to a back issues. and the girls these days weigh a ton, and so do the boys. better to get two fork lift trucks maybe

thank goodness not many have nalangu these days. atleast those i have attended. instead in the afternoon, there is a puranam discourse, which puts everyone to sleep. much to the annoyance of the ganapadigal.

much emphasis on the cooking. unfortunately the caterers are not consistent. i have found as they increase their business, their personal attention wavers and quality dips.

all in all, i agree with you. these days of nuclear families, one meets the kith and kin, only during weddings, and maybe funeral functions.

sangom · Oct 30, 2011

anant1948 said:
These days marriages have become more of a social activity. More emphasis needs to be given to the vedic aspects. The Shastrigals should explain the significance of the mantrams uttered during the marriage. Tying of the mangalasutra is being considered as the main event and people rush to congratualte the bride and groom after the tying of the same.

Shri Anant,

If one honestly follows the vedic aspect of marriage, there is no mangalsutra prescribed for marriage. Are we ready to dispense with this?

anant1948 · Oct 31, 2011

The younger generation want to follow our culture and that is a welcome sign. In that context only I had commented about the rituals. As for mangalasutra, perhaps our forefathers introduced this anticipating that as years pass by things will change and promiscuity will increase. Also, in olden days men never used to look women in their face It is really very sickening to see our people blindly aping Western Culture of 'living in' etc. These things pain me. Women are viewed more as 'objects' of enjoyment and not the way they were respected and given position of prominence and importance. We should take good points from all cultures but at the same time not lose our identity and our culture.

valli · Oct 31, 2011

Dear Kunjuppu

i am still waiting for atleast one marriage in my lifetime, where the groom, refuse to change his mind on the plead of the potential fil, and keeps on going and never returns to the mantapam

Classic!

Tamil Brahmins marriage

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