Why no Navagraha in Sri Vishnu Temples?

[sarang]

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That will not be correct, like the ramajanmabhoomi judgement. The three fighting parties either full or none, but the judgement is three way, which is not executable and not satisfy any group.

If the SC's suggestion is neither VK nor TK but Gopi Chandanam, since he belonged to Vadama Sect (per Wiki), what will you do?

 

[Vaagmi]

I prefer to be polished and gracious in my criticism. But when provoked I hit hard. Please read further.

I remember the following Tamil Kavithai when I read all that is being posted here about the Kalai differences in Vaishnavam. And am amused.

கான மயிலாடக்கண்டிருந்த வான்கோழி
தானும் அதுவாகப்பாவித்து, தானும் தன்
பொல்லாச்சிறகை விரித்தாடினால் போலுமே
கல்லாதான் கற்றா கவி.

None has bothered to find the difference between the two kalais in terms of their philosophical and interpretational differences. They are happy with the externals like U mark Y mark, yellow mark blue mark etc., Stupid, It is much deeper and has a lot to do with philosophical interpretations of scriptures. Now let us take a look at the Hindu society as it exists today-not a thousand years back:

1.A virudhunagar Dakshina Maara Nadaar will not marry from a Karappettai Nadar from Sattur. a Kovilpatti Nadar will not have anything to do with a Kanyakumari or Mukkudal Nadar. All these may be Nadars and yet this Nadar will not touch that Nadar.

2.A senkuntha Mudaliyar, a Kaikkola Mudaliyar, A vellala Mudaliyar and an Arcot Mudaliyar are islands in isolation. Marriage between these communities is taboo. Each subsect considers itself to be having blue blood.

3. a siruveettu pillai, a kaarkaaththa pillai and a vellalappillai may be pillais but will not accept each other as equal. A kottai pillai lives in complete isolation in his fortress and never will accept any of the other pillais. Some pillais are saiva pillai (Veg) and some are non-saivam (non veg).

4. A gomutty chetty will not go near a Naattukkottai chetty and there are telugu chetty and Tamil chetty among the Gomutty who will not see eye to eye.

5. a kallar, maravar and agamudaiyar though all three are thevars will have nothing to do with each other.

6. There is a kondaiyaan thevar who considers themselves superior to all these thevars and so will not have anything to do with these mukkulaththu thevars.

7. a Chozha desaththu vadaman will have nothing to do with a Pandiya desaththu vadaman even though both are vadama brahmins or for that matter with a vaathiman. A vadaman will have nothing to do with a ashtasahasram because they are below par. an ashta sahasram and and vadaman or vaathiman will not have marriage ties with a brihacharanam brahmin because he is lower down in the totem pole. All these smartha brahmins will not even touch a Mukkaniyan or a Chozhiyan or a madhyanna p****yan from Kallidaikurichi because he is in the lowest tier of the totem pole. Then we have keeththu Naamams, Thirunankovil vadaman etc., among the vadamans themselves and each one is an island.

8.a telugu speaking reddy will not touch a Reddiyarpatti reddy from Tamilnadu. And a Gavara Naidu will not marry from Kamma naidu family because they do not see eye to eye.

9. You can go on adding anynumber of hindu communities to this list. Whether it is Yadavas, Vanniyars, Goundas, Naickers each one has subdivisions and fiercely preserve their subdivision. identity.

Conclusion:

1)With Vaishnavas it is just two and the division is based on philosophical interpretational differences and not some funny and fierce clan identity. Where people do not bother about the philosophical interpretations, the two kalais have been intermarrying for the last hundreds of years. I expect that immediately the elephant will be brought in. Yes it was a legal dispute with two sides trying to assert their respective rights to worship and the elephant was treated as just another asset of the temple. Vaishnavites laugh at their own folly and have taken it in their strides. Only the stupid others are unable to get over that for ever. And when compared to the much worse human right violation of asking thevaram to be chanted standing at a lower level in the Thillai Natraraja Temple is easily papered over. Will Nataraja not listen to Tamil Thevaram if the othuvar chanting it stands at a higher level and chants it?

2)The much larger issue viz polytheism which encourages worshiping one God in the morning, one after 2 hours, another after another four hours and another in the evening and then one in the night. Worshiping navagrihas because of the mortal fear that they may harm if not worshiped, worshiping Yama the God of death because of the fear that he may grant a few more years of life if he is paid his dues, The effort to reach the mirage called the samadhi and over emphasising its greatness etc., needs reform. People have to change by either becoming vaishnavites or by converting to Christianity or Islam. That is the only way to their salvation.

 

[Raji Ram]

Dear Vaagmi Sir,

SmarthAs have forgotten the sub-sects long long back because of IC and IR weddings happening often!

They are happy as long as the chosen bride / groom is a brahmin, with any mother tongue!

BTW, I am sure you know that sub groups do exist in Xtians too!

 

[Janaki Jambunathan]

None has bothered to find the difference between the two kalais in terms of their philosophical and interpretational differences. They are happy with the externals like U mark Y mark, yellow mark blue mark etc., Stupid, It is much deeper and has a lot to do with philosophical interpretations of scriptures.

People would like to know the Philosophical interpretation U and Y Please Go ahead ! Only one Narayana Philosophy has more than one Philospy under its belt?

U mark Y mark seen on the forheads Yellow in between the limbs of U sometimes. Unaware of blue marks Looks stupid to think of it even!

 

[Vaagmi]

Dear Vaagmi Sir,

SmarthAs have forgotten the sub-sects long long back because of IC and IR weddings happening often!

They are happy as long as the chosen bride / groom is a brahmin, with any mother tongue!

BTW, I am sure you know that sub groups do exist in Xtians too!

People may be changing here and there. But vestiges are well entrenched. I have a Vathima friend who is looking for a girl for his son for the last so many years. He wont even accept the horoscope of a ashtasahasram girl leave alone mukkanian or sozhiyan. The boy has already become a mama and soon will be into the thathadom.

Xtians have more divisions among them than brahmins.

all this indicate the nature of human beings. They believe in exclusiveness and an imagined superiority.

No use making fun of any one of the community. all are in the same boat. That is the gist of my earlier post.

People who want to know the difference between Vadakalai and Tenkalai of vaishnavam can delve into the archive here. It is already there.

 

[Raji Ram]

........... Xtians have more divisions among them than brahmins..........

That is the point, Vaagmi Sir!

Then how do we get salvation by converting as Xtian, as you have mentioned at the tail end of the long post?

BTW, I think your set of friends are really special!

 

[Vaagmi]

That is the point, Vaagmi Sir!

Then how do we get salvation by converting as Xtian, as you have mentioned at the tail end of the long post?

BTW, I think your set of friends are really special!

That is NOT the point. You did not get it right. If they become vaishnavite they will have to choose between just two. No variety. Being accustomed to too many choices, they will find it attractive to convert to christianity. smartha brahmins will find a similar surfeit of options to choose from(and get a pyrhic satisfaction that they have preserved their blue blood) and so can become blue blooded Xtian readily.

Do you want to contact my Vathiman friend. Please let me know. I will give the No. through PM. You can get him a girl if you can from Vathiman community. He wont touch vadaman and will shun you the moment you bring up a mukkanian or a sozhiyan into the picture. LOL. I do not have friends who tell their children that they have the freedom to fall in and out of love with anyone because it is love free from expectations that they give to their children. LOL. Perhaps you have all such friends in your company. Be happy with them. If it is a mudaliyar girl who is coming to your home as in law please make sure it is from the blue blooded Arcot Mudaliyar clan. LOL.

 

[renuka]

I remember the Kalais like this..Vadakalais I think of Vada(the snack)
Thenkalai ...I think of Ten(honey)...

so one is spicy and one is sweet.

 

[Vaagmi]

Renukaji.
As usual you have done a horrible dukrinjkarane. 'Then' for honey in Tamil has the long consonant and you have shortened it to your convenience. We brahmins consider it blasphemous to take such liberties with Tamil. Lol.

 

[P.J.]

Renukaji.
As usual you have done a horrible dukrinjkarane. 'Then' for honey in Tamil has the long consonant and you have shortened it to your convenience. We brahmins consider it blasphemous to take such liberties with Tamil. Lol.

Vaagmi Sir


Yes, as Usual word is very much applicable to this member because all her ORIGINALS ARE like this only
This is her usual way of posting replies, without applying mind!!

 

[கால பைரவன்]

I prefer to be polished and gracious in my criticism. But when provoked I hit hard. Please read further.

I remember the following Tamil Kavithai when I read all that is being posted here about the Kalai differences in Vaishnavam. And am amused.

கான மயிலாடக்கண்டிருந்த வான்கோழி
தானும் அதுவாகப்பாவித்து, தானும் தன்
பொல்லாச்சிறகை விரித்தாடினால் போலுமே
கல்லாதான் கற்றா கவி.

None has bothered to find the difference between the two kalais in terms of their philosophical and interpretational differences. They are happy with the externals like U mark Y mark, yellow mark blue mark etc., Stupid, It is much deeper and has a lot to do with philosophical interpretations of scriptures. Now let us take a look at the Hindu society as it exists today-not a thousand years back:

1.A virudhunagar Dakshina Maara Nadaar will not marry from a Karappettai Nadar from Sattur. a Kovilpatti Nadar will not have anything to do with a Kanyakumari or Mukkudal Nadar. All these may be Nadars and yet this Nadar will not touch that Nadar.

2.A senkuntha Mudaliyar, a Kaikkola Mudaliyar, A vellala Mudaliyar and an Arcot Mudaliyar are islands in isolation. Marriage between these communities is taboo. Each subsect considers itself to be having blue blood.

3. a siruveettu pillai, a kaarkaaththa pillai and a vellalappillai may be pillais but will not accept each other as equal. A kottai pillai lives in complete isolation in his fortress and never will accept any of the other pillais. Some pillais are saiva pillai (Veg) and some are non-saivam (non veg).

4. A gomutty chetty will not go near a Naattukkottai chetty and there are telugu chetty and Tamil chetty among the Gomutty who will not see eye to eye.

5. a kallar, maravar and agamudaiyar though all three are thevars will have nothing to do with each other.

6. There is a kondaiyaan thevar who considers themselves superior to all these thevars and so will not have anything to do with these mukkulaththu thevars.

7. a Chozha desaththu vadaman will have nothing to do with a Pandiya desaththu vadaman even though both are vadama brahmins or for that matter with a vaathiman. A vadaman will have nothing to do with a ashtasahasram because they are below par. an ashta sahasram and and vadaman or vaathiman will not have marriage ties with a brihacharanam brahmin because he is lower down in the totem pole. All these smartha brahmins will not even touch a Mukkaniyan or a Chozhiyan or a madhyanna p****yan from Kallidaikurichi because he is in the lowest tier of the totem pole. Then we have keeththu Naamams, Thirunankovil vadaman etc., among the vadamans themselves and each one is an island.

8.a telugu speaking reddy will not touch a Reddiyarpatti reddy from Tamilnadu. And a Gavara Naidu will not marry from Kamma naidu family because they do not see eye to eye.

9. You can go on adding anynumber of hindu communities to this list. Whether it is Yadavas, Vanniyars, Goundas, Naickers each one has subdivisions and fiercely preserve their subdivision. identity.

Conclusion:

1)With Vaishnavas it is just two and the division is based on philosophical interpretational differences and not some funny and fierce clan identity. Where people do not bother about the philosophical interpretations, the two kalais have been intermarrying for the last hundreds of years. I expect that immediately the elephant will be brought in. Yes it was a legal dispute with two sides trying to assert their respective rights to worship and the elephant was treated as just another asset of the temple. Vaishnavites laugh at their own folly and have taken it in their strides. Only the stupid others are unable to get over that for ever. And when compared to the much worse human right violation of asking thevaram to be chanted standing at a lower level in the Thillai Natraraja Temple is easily papered over. Will Nataraja not listen to Tamil Thevaram if the othuvar chanting it stands at a higher level and chants it?

2)The much larger issue viz polytheism which encourages worshiping one God in the morning, one after 2 hours, another after another four hours and another in the evening and then one in the night. Worshiping navagrihas because of the mortal fear that they may harm if not worshiped, worshiping Yama the God of death because of the fear that he may grant a few more years of life if he is paid his dues, The effort to reach the mirage called the samadhi and over emphasising its greatness etc., needs reform. People have to change by either becoming vaishnavites or by converting to Christianity or Islam. That is the only way to their salvation.

Dear Vaagmi Sir,

That is a very good post except for your take on polytheism. Nevertheless, I hope it hits the mark and the "usual suspects" stop with their silly criticisms of Vaishnavites as if Smarthas or any other community are free from any such divisions or "flaws" as they see it.

My opinion is that the only reason the vaishnavites are constantly needled in this forum is that it is a way to play one Brahmin against another. It could as well transform itself into an anti-saivite or anti-smartha group in the future if the opportunity presents itself. Brahmin unity even at forum level may be anathema to some.

 

[Raji Ram]

Vaagmi Sir,
1. I am not a marriage broker to find a match for anyone from any group! :fish2:

Hence, no need to send any PM to me! :nono:
2. Not to worry about a other castes now because I am already blessed with a sweet voiced, nice d i l by the Almighty's grace! eace:

 

[Raji Ram]

Dear Vaagmi Sir,

That is a very good post except for your take on polytheism. Nevertheless, I hope it hits the mark and the "usual suspects" stop with their silly criticisms of Vaishnavites as if Smarthas or any other community are free from any such divisions or "flaws" as they see it.

My opinion is that the only reason the vaishnavites are constantly needled in this forum is that it is a way to play one Brahmin against another. It could as well transform itself into an anti-saivite or anti-smartha group in the future if the opportunity presents itself. Brahmin unity even at forum level may be anathema to some.

Dear K B Sir,
Do you miss to see the bashing against all the castes in Vaagmi Sir's post? :ranger:

Talking about the different thirumaNs of the two kalais of Vaishnavites does not come under any bashing, imho.

 

[கால பைரவன்]

Dear K B Sir,
Do you miss to see the bashing against all the castes in Vaagmi Sir's post? :ranger:

Talking about the different thirumaNs of the two kalais of Vaishnavites does not come under any bashing, imho.

Dear Mrs RR,

I think Vaagmi has only provided an overview of how things are with each and every community group. It looks like his post takes on an accusatory tone only because it is implicitly known that his post is only a response to all the accusations routinely heaped on vaishnavites in this forum.

The repeated nakkals and naiyandis about the thirumaN differences may be kosher to us but won't be remotely funny to a vaishnavite.

 

[Raji Ram]

Dear K B Sir,

I should not have continued the conversation that started about the two kalais.

If anyone finds my posts offending, I am sorry. :sorry:

P.S: But those posts are branded 'stupid' and so - tit for tat! :boink:

 

[Janaki Jambunathan]

I remember the Kalais like this..Vadakalais I think of Vada(the snack)
Thenkalai ...I think of Ten(honey)...

so one is spicy and one is sweet.

This is gastronomy Where is the philosophy?


Nobody is free from prejudices If kalai diffence is also same then it is understandable but what is the philosophical interpretation of this?

People would like to know the Philosophical interpretation U and Y Please Go ahead ! Only one Narayana Philosophy has more than one Philospy under its belt? (354) No amnswer yet


Narayana! Narayana!! intha ponnukku ennikkuththaan nalla buththiya kudukkapporiyo. Theriyalaiyedaappaa.

 

[renuka]

This is gastronomy Where is the philosophy?

.

Dear JJ ji,

Before we can think of God we need to fill our stomachs.

You cant preach to a hungry man..you will only make him an angry man.

So with Vadas and Honey one gets spicy and sweet and then one can sing praises of Glory of God.

 

[Janaki Jambunathan]

Originally Posted by renuka
I remember the Kalais like this..Vadakalais I think of Vada(the snack)
Thenkalai ...I think of Ten(honey)...

so one is spicy and one is sweet.


I see some pjhilosophy here But i need your permision to change "-Thenkalai ...I think of Ten(honey)... to Thenkali is thonnai istead of (Ten - Honey) I am on the move - on my return home - "Sapatturaman Philosophy" if you accept the change suggested!

 

[CHANDRU1849]

Worshipping of different Gods with different names will not bring any heartburn, actually encouraging more imaginative thinking about the religion / sect concerned, instead of worshipping one day the God, another day his avatars, following day the friend of one of the avatars etc?

Is it not laughable?

 

[JR]

Worshipping of different Gods with different names will not bring any heartburn, actually encouraging more imaginative thinking about the religion / sect concerned, instead of worshipping one day the God, another day his avatars, following day the friend of one of the avatars etc?

Is it not laughable?

Who said we (Vaishnavas) pray to a different avatara each day? Most of us choose a particular manifestation of the divine and pray to him/her each day uniformly. I have chosen Sri Rama to be my ishta-devata and I pray to him every single day.

 

[biswa]

Who said we (Vaishnavas) pray to a different avatara each day? Most of us choose a particular manifestation of the divine and pray to him/her each day uniformly. I have chosen Sri Rama to be my ishta-devata and I pray to him every single day.

Good point, now my question. If you worship Rama, do you worship Sita as well? If so, then immediately you fall in the much despised (by some bigots) polytheism. If not, why have Sita idols in temples and garland photos of Sita along with Rama?

 

[JR]

Good point, now my question. If you worship Rama, do you worship Sita as well? If so, then immediately you fall in the much despised (by some bigots) polytheism. If not, why have Sita idols in temples and garland photos of Sita along with Rama?

No, you are mistaken. By monotheism, it does not imply that one should not pray to different avataras or even an avatara and his spouse at the same time -- because different avataras of Sri Vishnu are but representations of the same divine... and the spouses of different avataras are not different from the avataras themselves, but form their active energy, and such avataras are not 'anya devata' to each other. It is like taking a bus to climb the mountain to reach the top. Whereas polytheism concept is vesting one's faith and trust in different gods who manifest different spiritual energies at the same time. This is akin to going around in circles at the bottom of the mountain in different buses and never reaching the top.

I include several devatas in my puja actually - first start with Hanuman, then Shri Rama, then Tirupathi Venkateswara, then finally mother Mahalakshmi. But my prayer to Sri Rama, he being my ishta, is the longest and one I never skip.

This is my understanding of monotheism as in Vaishanavism. Ofcourse, my understanding could be wrong and I wait for more learned to clarify their understanding of monotheism in Vaishnavam.

 

[CHANDRU1849]

Even if we take into account that Rama and Krishna, the avatars of Vishnu, can be treated only as Vishnu, what about Seetha, Bhama/Rukimini/Radha, Mahalakshmi and Anjaneya - wifes and friend of Rama, Krishna, Vishnu and Rama respectively.

Are Vaishnavites treating them as Gods and if not, why is not explicitly told to Hindus? What is their position in Hindu Vaishnavism? If they are not Gods, at least as far as Mahalakshmi is concerned, we can be free from the stupid statement emanating from Tamil films and serials that 'IVA MAHALAKSHMI MADHIRI IRUKKA'.

Some people in the pretext of Vaishnavites are trying to make Vaishnavism as monothesim. Will it work? Even if it works, one can expect a clash between Vishnu followers and ISKCON, which gives importance only to Krishna.

Let us wait for the kutcheri.

 

[a-TB]

No, you are mistaken. By monotheism, it does not imply that one should not pray to different avataras or even an avatara and his spouse at the same time -- because different avataras of Sri Vishnu are but representations of the same divine... and the spouses of different avataras are not different from the avataras themselves, but form their active energy, and such avataras are not 'anya devata' to each other. It is like taking a bus to climb the mountain to reach the top. Whereas polytheism concept is vesting one's faith and trust in different gods who manifest different spiritual energies at the same time. This is akin to going around in circles at the bottom of the mountain in different buses and never reaching the top.

I include several devatas in my puja actually - first start with Hanuman, then Shri Rama, then Tirupathi Venkateswara, then finally mother Mahalakshmi. But my prayer to Sri Rama, he being my ishta, is the longest and one I never skip.

This is my understanding of monotheism as in Vaishanavism. Ofcourse, my understanding could be wrong and I wait for more learned to clarify their understanding of monotheism in Vaishnavam.

I read in a blog that the place Rameshwara is so named because Rama worshiped Siva linga before the war and that Rama's God is Siva (and hence the name Rama's Ishwara for that place).

Do Vaishnavas believe this story? If so why not worship Siva also?

 

[biswa]

No, you are mistaken. By monotheism, it does not imply that one should not pray to different avataras or even an avatara and his spouse at the same time -- because different avataras of Sri Vishnu are but representations of the same divine... and the spouses of different avataras are not different from the avataras themselves, but form their active energy, and such avataras are not 'anya devata' to each other. It is like taking a bus to climb the mountain to reach the top. Whereas polytheism concept is vesting one's faith and trust in different gods who manifest different spiritual energies at the same time. This is akin to going around in circles at the bottom of the mountain in different buses and never reaching the top.

I include several devatas in my puja actually - first start with Hanuman, then Shri Rama, then Tirupathi Venkateswara, then finally mother Mahalakshmi. But my prayer to Sri Rama, he being my ishta, is the longest and one I never skip.

This is my understanding of monotheism as in Vaishanavism. Ofcourse, my understanding could be wrong and I wait for more learned to clarify their understanding of monotheism in Vaishnavam.

This seems to be a conveniently tailored definition of monotheism. I can quite agree that Rama, Sita and Hanuman are representations of the same divine. But then why not Vishwanatha, Siddhi Vinayaka and Calcutta Kali?