why has it become fashionable to Blame India first?

[Nara]

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My views and so called harsh words are not against any one in particular; they are all against all those who deride and abuse brahmins, wish and plan their destruction, their tradition and culture. If they find anything good in others (not brahmins or other minorities) they are free to shout and write as much as they want. I hope my position is clear.

My dear brother sarang, first, thank you for responding to my post, I appreciate it.

Your position has been clear for a long time now, that is not the issue. My main concern about your post in question was not even the harsh words you used -- though I think the kind of harsh words you so often use, the ones directed at people, are counterproductive -- it was about leaving the target of your harsh words unnamed, leaving all of us thinking we are the target.

I am very much interested in knowing what you write about christian and islamic scriptures and practices, in an forum or group. Any links?

Brother sarang, I will be happy to share my views on the above with you, what would you like to know? I am not sure what "links" you want me to give, but if it is about criticism of Bible and Quran, there are plenty, just do a little google search.

let me leave you with a little teaser of my views on these religions.

First, IMO, organized religion is more of a bane than a boon to humanity. We as humans will be better off without organized religion. If we are to rank religions on perniciousness, these two you mention will rank at the top. The more monotheistic (either only one god or one particular god is supreme over all others) a religion is, the more pernicious it is. In this respect, I think if Hinduism can somehow rid itself of the Brahmnical aspects, then, IMO, it will be among the ones at the bottom end of the pernicious ranking.

Bible - the god of old testament is a patriarchal and genocidal maniac who cares more about one's donkey (Commandment #10) than rape or pedafilia. The new testament fares not very much better, the prince of peace proudly declares he has come to break up families, to set son against father, daughter against mother, and so on.

Quran - It is easy to pick on the much maligned Quran, especially the Sword verses. Islam is probably the poster child for those of us who want to denounce religions. However, I also wish people to realize, at the time the Islamic scriptures were written, hard as it may be to believe, they were the most advanced when it came to women's rights. When the rest of the word considered women as mere property, an object of enjoyment, baby-machine, a mere appendage, Islam recognized them as independent entities with rights, not equal to men, but at least deserving of some rights that women of no other religious cultures enjoyed.

Brother Sarang, for all the hatred you see from the ones you view as Brahmin Bashers and Brahmin Haters, most Brahmins are doing just fine, even great. So, let us not be angry with each other all the time. We have different perspectives in life, that is all. Let us argue in a good natured way and have some fun, may be even laugh a little. How about it my friend?

Cheers!

 

[suraju06]

Kunjuppu's post #47:

you need to go outside of india, like we are in canada, and get to feel participation in a community. which we in tamil nadu dont anymore.that is the disservice done to the current generations by those tambrams in power since 1920s till 1967.

Kunjuppu I do not get what you want to say here in this sentence. Can you please make it more clear?

but please remember, to overwhelming NBs in tamil nadu, periyar freed the psychologically from an inferiority complex, and reassure them that they are as good as any brahmin. the DMK victory of 1967 ensured periyarism ruled in tamil nadu, overnight and complete.we lost.

Not to 'overwhelming NBs'. On what basis is this claim made? In the Tamil society of those times it was not as if TBs owned all the major assets of the state (like the Chettiyars, thevars and Mudaliyars of that time) or that TBs had an army of followers who would go and shoot any one who raises a finger against them(as we have in some of the north Indian states even today). This being the situation how do you claim that the inferiority complex came in the minds of an 'overwhelming section' of the tamil society. This is what you have been repeatedly told by the propagandists of the Kazhagam establishment and you are repeating it. And you have conveniently forgotten or you are ready to paper over the plight of another section of the tamil society who still reels under the inferiority complex and the atrocities in the villages. If any community needed assurance that they were as good as brahmins/thevars/mudaliyars it was the dalits of Tamilnadu and they never got that assurance-not even from EVR or Annadurai. You have said we lost. What did we have in the first place to lose it? Don't you know that Kamaraj and Bhaktavatsalam were rallying points within Congress for the anti-brahmin politicians even before DMK came to power? Or is it your case that Kamaraj and Bhaktavatsalam were brahmins!! So, dear friend, nothing happened over night as you believe. If any thing, it is majority casteism that has been ruling Tamilnadu.

 

[suraju06]

Kunjuppu,

Your post #47:

periyar was never a politician.he never stood for any political post.

This is indeed a gem from you!! General Ashfaq Khayani of Pakistan is not a politician because he is a full time general of the Pak army. Colonel Gaddafi was never a politician nor the ruler of Libya because he was just a military officer. We can quote many such examples.

his was a reformist movement, aimed primarily at NB hindus, to get them to think modern

It was a sham reformist movement. It was aimed primarily at the majority powerful middle caste casteists of Tamil society. It was a movement by, for and of casteist middle castes. If they had made even a beginning to think modern they would have first taught the dalits how to handle their tormentors in the various villages with their double tumbler system in tea shops (we have this system alive and kicking vigorously even today).

women emancipation, education of women, family planning, dismissing the myth

Yes. This is another gem.Women emancipation by leading from the front-by marrying a girl far younger than himself at his old age(when he needed help from his followers to stand up from the seat) and denying her basic sexual rights, all the while talking eloquently about women sexuality and their rights, interspersing the rhetoric with abuses of brahmins.

that the brahmin of those times was superior to everyone else in the community of those times, a feeling equally proposed by the brahmins at large, and equally accepted by the NBs at large.

"that the brahmins, thevars, mudaliyars, naidus, naickers, pillais, gounders etc of those times were superior to dalits in the community of those times, a view arrogantly held by Bs, Ts,Ms,Ns,Ps,and Gs at large and equally accepted by the dalits at large" would be the proper way to describe the situation prevailing at that time. Kunjuppu, however hard you may try, whatever you say will be just an inexactitude/lie as long as you try to fudge the casteism of the majority castes of Tamilnadu.

when history is written, of the 20th century tamilians, who has had a lasting impact on the society, only periyar and bharathiar will be remembered.

How sad and what an intellectual dishonesty to equate EVR with Bharathiyar.

today periyar is passe as almost all his goals have been achieved. there may be some NB anti brahmins, whipping up his speeches, but by and large, an enfranchised NB politically savvy has been in power since 1967 and no signs of giving it up.

This is not relevant here.

Cheers.

 

[prasad1]

Kunjuppu,

Your post #47:



This is indeed a gem from you!! General Ashfaq Khayani of Pakistan is not a politician because he is a full time general of the Pak army. Colonel Gaddafi was never a politician nor the ruler of Libya because he was just a military officer. We can quote many such examples.



It was a sham reformist movement. It was aimed primarily at the majority powerful middle caste casteists of Tamil society. It was a movement by, for and of casteist middle castes. If they had made even a beginning to think modern they would have first taught the dalits how to handle their tormentors in the various villages with their double tumbler system in tea shops (we have this system alive and kicking vigorously even today).



Yes. This is another gem.Women emancipation by leading from the front-by marrying a girl far younger than himself at his old age(when he needed help from his followers to stand up from the seat) and denying her basic sexual rights, all the while talking eloquently about women sexuality and their rights, interspersing the rhetoric with abuses of brahmins.



"that the brahmins, thevars, mudaliyars, naidus, naickers, pillais, gounders etc of those times were superior to dalits in the community of those times, a view arrogantly held by Bs, Ts,Ms,Ns,Ps,and Gs at large and equally accepted by the dalits at large" would be the proper way to describe the situation prevailing at that time. Kunjuppu, however hard you may try, whatever you say will be just an inexactitude/lie as long as you try to fudge the casteism of the majority castes of Tamilnadu.



How sad and what an intellectual dishonesty to equate EVR with Bharathiyar.



This is not relevant here.

Cheers.

You write very eloquently, congratulations and thanks for the explanations.

 

[kunjuppu]

dear suraju,

amazing isn't it, the colour of the shield, is red or blue, depends on which side you are on? always a delight to disagree with you?

muchly regards.

 

[kunjuppu]

our civil uncivil club

NO COMMENTS..

-our-uncivil-civil-society/

some excerpts....

While Leonardo da Vinci pondered whether “the greatest deception men suffer is from their own opinions,” Amartya Sen, the Nobel Laureate, immortalized the history of argumentative tradition in India in his brilliant tome “The Argumentative Indian.”

Prof. Sen argues that “the contemporary relevance of the dialogic tradition and of the acceptance of heterodoxy is hard to exaggerate. Discussions and arguments are critically important for democracy and public reasoning. Going beyond these basic structural priorities, the argumentative tradition, if used with deliberation and commitment, can also be extremely important in resisting social inequalities and in removing poverty and deprivation. Voice is a critical component of the pursuit of social justice.”

...

The ability to posture first and postulate later, to shout first and hear later, to be rhetorical always and rational never. ...

Two things therefore happen. First, we become an extremely loud and brash society, which thinks that the other human being across from you is always wrong, you are always right and you can never concede on any point since that will destroy your very existence on this Earth.

Second, we lose all sense of pride in — or desire for — a collective opinion, a collective position, a collective wealth. Greater forms and opportunities of communication should have helped release the frustration, which maybe generations earlier experienced with a lack of ready access to public platforms

....

Voltaire’s famous persuasion that “I do not agree with what you have to say, but I’ll defend to the death your right to say it” is therefore probably an anachronism today.

The nature of our “debate” thus hangs in the balance. Unless we imbue our argumentative traditions with Prof. Sen’s “deliberation and commitment,” with “civility and tolerance,” with “respect and forbearance,” with “vaad” not “vitandavaad,” we are teetering on the edge of an abyss, where we may progress towards 9% growth but at the expense of building our nation.

 

[suraju06]

Kunjuppu,

While Leonardo da Vinci pondered whether “the greatest deception men suffer is from their own opinions,” Amartya Sen, the Nobel Laureate, immortalized the history of argumentative tradition in India in his brilliant tome “The Argumentative Indian.”

Prof. Sen argues that “the contemporary relevance of the dialogic tradition and of the acceptance of heterodoxy is hard to exaggerate. Discussions and arguments are critically important for democracy and public reasoning. Going beyond these basic structural priorities, the argumentative tradition, if used with deliberation and commitment, can also be extremely important in resisting social inequalities and in removing poverty and deprivation. Voice is a critical component of the pursuit of social justice.”

...The ability to posture first and postulate later, to shout first and hear later, to be rhetorical always and rational never. ...Two things therefore happen. First, we become an extremely loud and brash society, which thinks that the other human being across from you is always wrong, you are always right and you can never concede on any point since that will destroy your very existence on this Earth.

Second, we lose all sense of pride in — or desire for — a collective opinion, a collective position, a collective wealth. Greater forms and opportunities of communication should have helped release the frustration, which maybe generations earlier experienced with a lack of ready access to public platforms
....Voltaire’s famous persuasion that “I do not agree with what you have to say, but I’ll defend to the death your right to say it” is therefore probably an anachronism today.

The nature of our “debate” thus hangs in the balance. Unless we imbue our argumentative traditions with Prof. Sen’s “deliberation and commitment,” with “civility and tolerance,” with “respect and forbearance,” with “vaad” not “vitandavaad,” we are teetering on the edge of an abyss, where we may progress towards 9% growth but at the expense of building our nation.​

• 
  I agree fully with the sentiments expressed here.
  
  Cheers.

 

[sangom]

NO COMMENTS..

-our-uncivil-civil-society/

some excerpts....

While Leonardo da Vinci pondered whether “the greatest deception men suffer is from their own opinions,” Amartya Sen, the Nobel Laureate, immortalized the history of argumentative tradition in India in his brilliant tome “The Argumentative Indian.”

Prof. Sen argues that “the contemporary relevance of the dialogic tradition and of the acceptance of heterodoxy is hard to exaggerate. Discussions and arguments are critically important for democracy and public reasoning. Going beyond these basic structural priorities, the argumentative tradition, if used with deliberation and commitment, can also be extremely important in resisting social inequalities and in removing poverty and deprivation. Voice is a critical component of the pursuit of social justice.”

...

The ability to posture first and postulate later, to shout first and hear later, to be rhetorical always and rational never. ...

Two things therefore happen. First, we become an extremely loud and brash society, which thinks that the other human being across from you is always wrong, you are always right and you can never concede on any point since that will destroy your very existence on this Earth.

Second, we lose all sense of pride in — or desire for — a collective opinion, a collective position, a collective wealth. Greater forms and opportunities of communication should have helped release the frustration, which maybe generations earlier experienced with a lack of ready access to public platforms

....

Voltaire’s famous persuasion that “I do not agree with what you have to say, but I’ll defend to the death your right to say it” is therefore probably an anachronism today.

The nature of our “debate” thus hangs in the balance. Unless we imbue our argumentative traditions with Prof. Sen’s “deliberation and commitment,” with “civility and tolerance,” with “respect and forbearance,” with “vaad” not “vitandavaad,” we are teetering on the edge of an abyss, where we may progress towards 9% growth but at the expense of building our nation.

Dear Kunjuppu,

Your link is a very useful one for me, but I doubt whether this will alter the complexion of the exchange of views in this forum, particularly the "General Discussions" which for many on the somewhat well-identifiable BB and proB lobbies here, is more like "General Conquests"!

Particularly when the topic of discussion touches (somehow and mostly invariably) caste, god, religion, favourite Mathams/gurus/babas, etc., it becomes the bounden duty of some to "bark off" the critics till they disappear from visibility and spoor, as observed in some breeds of the most faithful animal (no disregard intended to anyone). So, just as India is likely to continue as a nation of increasing intolerance, this forum will too.

Still, you post and the link are timely reminders, I feel. Thank you,

 

[sarang]

Couple of quick points:

1. Please don't call me brother; I am not your brother no wish to be one.

2. If my language appears to be harsh or exceeds permissible level, it can be toned down if it is pointed out. I am angry against those who are filled with hatred and want to destroy a peaceful community of brahmins or using words like 'pernicious'. I do not hate atheists or followers of any religion as most hindus are.
3. I do not want a summary of what are your views on abrahamic religions in this forum. I wanted to know what you write in christian, islamic and other theist forums (hence the links to those forums) about how pernicious these religions are. On second thoughts, I don't need them now, as I don't care what to know what you said or may say.
4. If brahmin bashing is fun and laughter, and your stated policy of destruction of brahmins and brahminism is nothing but a 'leela' for you, I want no part in it. Does not follow, that I will keep quiet when unacceptable anti brahmin sentiments and statements are made and wild generalizations are advanced.

My dear brother sarang, first, thank you for responding to my post, I appreciate it.

Your position has been clear for a long time now, that is not the issue. My main concern about your post in question was not even the harsh words you used -- though I think the kind of harsh words you so often use, the ones directed at people, are counterproductive -- it was about leaving the target of your harsh words unnamed, leaving all of us thinking we are the target.


Brother sarang, I will be happy to share my views on the above with you, what would you like to know? I am not sure what "links" you want me to give, but if it is about criticism of Bible and Quran, there are plenty, just do a little google search.

let me leave you with a little teaser of my views on these religions.

First, IMO, organized religion is more of a bane than a boon to humanity. We as humans will be better off without organized religion. If we are to rank religions on perniciousness, these two you mention will rank at the top. The more monotheistic (either only one god or one particular god is supreme over all others) a religion is, the more pernicious it is. In this respect, I think if Hinduism can somehow rid itself of the Brahmnical aspects, then, IMO, it will be among the ones at the bottom end of the pernicious ranking.

Bible - the god of old testament is a patriarchal and genocidal maniac who cares more about one's donkey (Commandment #10) than rape or pedafilia. The new testament fares not very much better, the prince of peace proudly declares he has come to break up families, to set son against father, daughter against mother, and so on.

Quran - It is easy to pick on the much maligned Quran, especially the Sword verses. Islam is probably the poster child for those of us who want to denounce religions. However, I also wish people to realize, at the time the Islamic scriptures were written, hard as it may be to believe, they were the most advanced when it came to women's rights. When the rest of the word considered women as mere property, an object of enjoyment, baby-machine, a mere appendage, Islam recognized them as independent entities with rights, not equal to men, but at least deserving of some rights that women of no other religious cultures enjoyed.

Brother Sarang, for all the hatred you see from the ones you view as Brahmin Bashers and Brahmin Haters, most Brahmins are doing just fine, even great. So, let us not be angry with each other all the time. We have different perspectives in life, that is all. Let us argue in a good natured way and have some fun, may be even laugh a little. How about it my friend?

Cheers!

 

[ozone]

Dear Kunjuppu,

Your link is a very useful one for me, but I doubt whether this will alter the complexion of the exchange of views in this forum, particularly the "General Discussions" which for many on the somewhat well-identifiable BB and proB lobbies here, is more like "General Conquests"!

Particularly when the topic of discussion touches (somehow and mostly invariably) caste, god, religion, favourite Mathams/gurus/babas, etc., it becomes the bounden duty of some to "bark off" the critics till they disappear from visibility and spoor, as observed in some breeds of the most faithful animal (no disregard intended to anyone). So, just as India is likely to continue as a nation of increasing intolerance, this forum will too.

Still, you post and the link are timely reminders, I feel. Thank you,

I think this is flawed and a corelation being made out of context.
If you go to a public place like a Park, you are allowed to use the place at will but you are expected to confine it to activities and friends that relate to you and respect other co visitors. You are not expected to interfere or make fun of the activities of others that visit the place. Doing so and getting reprimanded for that is not called Intorelance.
Being hassled and not asserting onself is not Tolerance either.

 

[Nara]

....1. Please don't call me brother; I am not your brother no wish to be one.

My dear brother sarang, this reminds me of my Chittappa, hardly a few years older than myself, shouting at my father, "you are not my brother, go to hell for all I care", when my father, in all his splendid ego, demanded his brother tell him every moment of his activity when he was staying with us for an extended period of time.

Dear Sarang, you are my dear brother, whether you like it or not, just as much as my dear neighbor Bruce, a loving and large-hearted of a fellow.

Dear brother, I actively participate only in this forum, not in a Christian or Islamic forum. So, I am unable to give any link to you. However, I will be happy to discuss my views on Christianity and Islam with you to the extent you wish. It seems you have no wish for such a discussion and I respect that.

When it comes to Brahmnism, I do believe it is what keeps those humans born as Brahmins down, not to mention the NBs. I do believe the best outcome for those of my brothers born as Brahmins is to ditch their Brahminhood and embrace plain and simple humanhood. You may disagree with me on this count, but that is alright, you are still my dear brother as we share 99% of DNA.

Dear brother sarang, I call on you and all my other brothers, B or NB by the accident of birth, come one and all, let us be brothers and sisters, no more no less, no Brahmin no pariah, all humans with the same innate value. This is not hard, it is only a matter of outlook, does not cost a penny or paisa.

super cheers for the best of all new years for all my brothers and sisters ...

 

[renuka]

Unrelated to this thread but read this anyway..

'Jana Gan Man...' : Praise for Bharatmata or Glorification of British King ? - Special | hindujagruti.org

 

[sarang]

# 61

Now I know whom sankaracharya had in mind when he composed baja govindam.

 

[sangom]

# 61

Now I know whom sankaracharya had in mind when he composed baja govindam.

was not shankaracharya calling upon himself as "moodhamate" because he was emphasizing the jnaanamarga only for long time but forgot bhakti completely? Hence the emphasis on 'dukrinjkaraNe', I believe.

 

[Nara]

# 61

Now I know whom sankaracharya had in mind when he composed baja govindam.

My dear brother sarang, this is too cryptic for the fool that I am to understand. Please explain it to me in a way I can understand.

BTW, I am delighted that you think Adi Sankara, if he really authored Baja Govindam, was thinking of me, isn't that cool, or would that be too weird?

best of cheers for a happy happy NY!!!!!

 

[sarang]

I have been told that all paths - gnana, bhakti, karma - lead to moksha; each school acknowledges this, but recommends a path that is more suited to the temperament of the followers.

Shankaracharya was referring to those who indulge in useless arguments, stick to sterile grammar, fight on non essentials and do vidanda vada.

Anyway, your view is definitely different and is sure a fetch a phd from evr university, if even a short synopsis is presented to the phd committee. From this graduation to write bhashyas on upanishads, gita and brahmasutra is only a small step. I am sure funding should not be a problem.

was not shankaracharya calling upon himself as "moodhamate" because he was emphasizing the jnaanamarga only for long time but forgot bhakti completely? Hence the emphasis on 'dukrinjkaraNe', I believe.

 

[sangom]

I have been told that all paths - gnana, bhakti, karma - lead to moksha; each school acknowledges this, but recommends a path that is more suited to the temperament of the followers.

Shankaracharya was referring to those who indulge in useless arguments, stick to sterile grammar, fight on non essentials and do vidanda vada.

Anyway, your view is definitely different and is sure a fetch a phd from evr university, if even a short synopsis is presented to the phd committee. From this graduation to write bhashyas on upanishads, gita and brahmasutra is only a small step. I am sure funding should not be a problem.

Before any Ph. D. from EVR university, may I say that even according to you, Sankara did not say that all paths - jnaana, bhakti and karma - lead to moksha, only "you have been 'moTTayaa' told".

useless arguments - useless to whom
sterile grammar - what is 'fertile' grammar please?
vidanda vada - what kind of new 'vada' is this? combination of uLundu and masaal vadas?

 

[sarang]

was not shankaracharya calling upon himself as "moodhamate"

You can take the sole credit for this deconstruction! That is why registering for phd recommended.

 

[jayam33]

The first resistance to British expansion was offered by the legendary Puli Thevan, polygar of Avudyapuram, who, in 1757, led a confederacy of Western polygar chieftains in defiance against the Nawab of Carnatic's right to levy taxes on them on behalf of the British.During the 1780s and 1790s, Tamil chieftains like Dheeran Chinnamalai and the Maruthu Pandiyar brothers also fought along with Tipu Sultan against the British. The Marudu brothers defeated a powerful British force at Kollangudi near Sivagangai in April 1789.

In 1799, Kattabomman Nayak, the polygar of Panchalankurichi, revolted against the British along with his brother Oomadhurai and a few neighbouring polygars. After a few successful skirmishes, Panchalankurichi was eventually besieged by Company troops and Kattabomman was defeated in a long, pitched battle. Panchalankurichi was levelled to the ground. However, the Maruthu Pandiyar brother and some of Kattabomman's allies evaded capture and along with Dheeran Chinnamalai, fought the Second Polygar War against the British. Though the rebels were initially successful and Chinnamalai inflicted a severe defeat on Colonel Makiskan, the rebellion was eventually put down in 1802 and all the leaders captured and hanged. The Maruthu Pandiyar brothers defeated the British troops at Virupatchi and repulsed an attack on Sivagangai but were defeated and captured at Cholapuram. The brothers were hanged in October 1801 along with other prisoners.

History says it all; so do not narrow it down & say RSS OR BJP or any body would say "let the brahmins be the leaders"; if Subramania Bhararhy was our pride; we are proud about Kappalotiya Thamizhan VA VU Chidambaranar also; Thiru.Kamaraj was a Great Leader. Veer Maratha Shivaji was a Great Fighter.

We respect our Constitution & it was written by HON.DR BABASAHEB AMBEDKAR. Secularism is good; but appeasement is bad; we need strong parties like Congress & BJP like Democratic & Republic Party of USA.

 

[jayam33]

To attain Moksha one has to follow Nivruthi (Gyana margam); you cannot tell a boy studying in first standard to submit a thesis on some complicated subject; so he has to go step by step; so pravruthi (Bhakti margam;karma margam) was suggested. Adi SANKARAR wrote Brahma Bhashyam; said MAYA was the cause of our Ignorance; but sang Soudarya Lahiri & said Goddess "Ambal" is all pervading; surrender to her.He did not Attribute term "Moodamathe" to Himself; it is a call for the ordinary folks to give up there routine indulgence & concentrate on God & take a step towards Moksha Margam in this birth itself. [Arithu Arithu Manidarai Pirathal Arithu...] hence do not lose this chance take a step towards this direction is His firm advice.