What would be the fate/kismet of Dharun Ravi? An Excellent Portrait in The New Yorker

[Jaykay767]

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Hello ALL:

Dharun Ravi Vs Tyler Clementi. Trayvon Martin Vs. George Zimmerman. Who is the Victim and who is the Villain?

There a few complain that Dharun Ravi was a scapegoat at the alter of a bigoted Society.

1. Yes, in spite of Progressive Movement since 1980s, American Society has homophobia perpetrated by largely religious conservatives like Rick Santorums of the world.

Like, in spite of strict enforcement of the law, still about 1% of the motorists run red light and stop signs...

Can we condone this? No.. We must apply the laws more harshly to prevent future occurrences.

2. Dharun did lot of research on the background of Tyler who committed suicide on Sep 22, 2010 because, most probably, that he felt humiliated by what Dharun did to him on Sep 19 and 21, 2010. Tyler's homosexuality was spread among dozens of students at Rutgers University.

3. Dharun was at least mildly homophobic from his tweets: "Tyler is a POOR GAY" and he wants to "Keep GAYS Away".

4. This very homophobic feelings prompted him to set up his webcam spying on Tyler and his companion.

5. Hence the motive was to "keep the GAYS Away" to invade the privacy of Tyler & Co.

6. Therefore, a 12 member Jury found him guilty unanimously on FOUR counts of Bias Intimidation - a hate crime and 21 other counts.

Where's the scapegoating here?

The law worked as intended here.

More later....

Hi Yamaka,

yes, Dharun was guilty of the charges. However the system failed on 2 counts on the basis of "principle of justice"

1. Dharun did not kill Tyler

2. Dharun did not deliberately drive Tyler to his death. anyways, no evidence to prove this.

No dispute on both these facts. Even if Dharun is guilty of all the 15 charges, he does NOT deserve to be put in Jail even for 1 day let alone 5 yrs, 10 yrs.. why ? becos all these distasteful, hateful, disgusting actions but not criminal.

Go to any pub in the USA, the kind of homophobic, racial, political, religious words used are horrible to say the least. if you compare to what Dharun wrote, you may as well put the entire country to Jail.

He should be at best given community service & counselling.

you can argue, this is the law, it will take years to change the law etc.. but someone is getting punished, so if the system cannot change to let this person off, then it has failed.

Bottom line - Dharun's case is a "miscarriage of justice".

 

[KRS]

Here is a very thoughtful analysis about Dharun's case, published in The Guardian:

The Dharun Ravi verdict does little for other Tyler Clementis | Maura Kelly | Comment is free | guardian.co.uk

Shortly before Rutgers University student Tyler Clementi committed suicide in September 2010, his roommate Dharun Ravi used a webcam to watch Clementi's sexual encounters with another man; he also tweeted about it.At his trial, Ravi faced 15 criminal charges, including multiple indictments of invasion of privacy and bias intimidation, a hate crime.
Note that Ravi was not accused of physically injuring Clementi, or of attempting to. But since the jury has now found that, on various counts, Ravi did intend to expose and harass his roommate because Clementi was gay, he could spend a decade behind bars – the kind of sentence a convicted killer might get.
In effect, the bias intimidation convictions establish a chain of moral consequence between Ravi's behavior and Clementi's death, and declare that what happened in the Rutgers dorm was a hate crime. Writing for the Daily Beast, Jay Michaelson explained:

"If all Ravi did was film Clementi in bed with another man, it's a minor offense. If he did so in order to harass Clementi for being gay, he could get 10 years in prison."
​

New York Law School professor Susan Abraham, a former New Jersey public defender, told the Star-Ledger that a sentence like that is usually "associated with an assault or murder … where it's much more clear that you're trying to hurt somebody, physically." Ravi's lawyers wrapped up their arguments in his defense Tuesday, and after his conviction Friday, he now awaits sentencing. But it's likely the public debate stirred up by his trial – about whether or not hate crime laws are too extreme – will continue for a long time to come.
The defense relied largely on witnesses who testified that they'd never heard Ravi speak poorly of gay people. That's not to say Ravi, who didn't take the stand himself, came off as a real sweetheart, or even that it was perfectly clear that he's not homophobic. One student testified that Ravi texted about wanting to "keep the gays away"; the jury also learned thatRavi used the word "fag" in another message. Nonetheless, I feel for the kid – who also texted Clementi, after hearing he'd requested a room change, to say, "I've known you were gay and I have no problem with it."
Ravi came across as immature, over-privileged, and offensive, certainly. But is he a gay-basher? I'm not sure. And yet, even that question might be beside the point.
Let's leave alone the matter of Ravi's state of mind during the time when he was filming and tweeting about Clementi. (My guess is that he was, at least, somewhat fascinated by homosexual activity; also that he was enough of a doofus that he likely would've teased an awkward straight roommate, if he didn't like the guy, in a similar way.) Let's consider, instead, if he was tried for hate crime, or thought crime.
The FBI notes on its website: "Hate itself is not a crime, and the FBI is mindful of protecting freedom of speech and other civil liberties." Indeed, thought should always be protected, like it or not. As Andrew Sullivan wrote, in an oft-cited 1999 essay for the New York Times Magazine:

"[V]iolence can and should be stopped by the government. In a free society, hate can't and shouldn't be. The boundaries between hate and prejudice and between prejudice and opinion … are so complicated and blurred that any attempt to construct legal and political fire walls is a doomed and illiberal venture."
​

And yet hate itself does seem to be precisely what's at stake here: Ravi's verdict turned on the pivot of whether or not hatred of gay people prompted his behavior.
In its 1993 Wisconsin v Mitchell decision, the US supreme court unanimously found that hate crime legislation doesn't violate the first amendment, as Sullivan and others worry that it does. Chief Justice William Rehnquist wrote in his opinion:

"In determining what sentence to impose, sentencing judges have traditionally considered a wide variety of factors … including a defendant's motive for committing the offense. While it is equally true that a sentencing judge may not take into consideration a defendant's abstract beliefs, however obnoxious to most people, the constitution does not erect a per se barrier to the admission of evidence concerning one's beliefs and associations at sentencing simply because they are protected by the first amendment."
​

Rehnquist's argument notwithstanding, I assume sentencing decisions are affected by the length of the allowable sentence. When a longer possible sentence is the anchor, my guess is that it leads to longer sentences, on average. And in the Ravi case, the possible punishment – of ten years – seems to far outweigh the crimes.
Hate crime perpetrators are understandably perceived by many as terrorists, of a sort, who intimidate and harass whole communities. Laws aimed at them are meant to dissuade other haters from committing similar acts of violence against embattled groups – although it's not clear thathate crime legislation has a deterrent effect. In practice, though, the vast majority of these kinds of acts are not carried out by thugs who belong to hate-fomenting organizations.
"Most hate crimes are carried out by otherwise law-abiding young people who see little wrong with their actions," as the American Psychological Association put it in a 1998 position paper. "Alcohol and drugs sometimes help fuel these crimes, but the main determinant appears to be personal prejudice … [which] blind the aggressors to the immorality of what they are doing." The APA goes on to note that many hate crime perpetrators believe "that society sanctions attacks on certain groups":

"For example, Dr Karen Franklin, a forensic psychology fellow at the Washington Institute for Mental Illness Research and Training, has found that, in some settings, offenders perceive that they have societal permission to engage in violence against homosexuals."
​

Obviously, making it clear that society strongly disapproves of such behavior is crucial. But is a lot of jail time in a handful of cases an effective way to overcome prejudice that remains, unfortunately, all too widespread?In a recent New York Times forum, James Jacobs, a professor at New York University school of law and co-author of Hate Crime: Criminal Law and Identity Politics, argues that, if anything, longer sentences only exacerbate the problem:

"In the 1980s, proponents of the original bias crime laws said they meant to go after murderous plots by members of neo-Nazi and similar hardcore hate groups. Now, bias crime prosecutions most often involve young defendants, frequently mixed-up teenagers, who commit low-level offenses like criminal mischief and simple assault, typically escalating from spontaneous altercations at a party …
"Minority and liberal advocacy groups argue that [hate] laws reinforce anti-discrimination values. But these laws also conflict with liberals' opposition to over-use of criminal law and especially over-incarceration. Sending more people to prison for longer is hardly likely to contribute to a more tolerant society. To the contrary, jails and prisons are breeding ground for hate groups."
​

(And there are some people in the LGBT community who agree with him.)
I have to wonder whether punishing a kid like Dharun Ravi after the fact is just; or, moreover, whether it will do anybody any good. Both Clementi and Ravi were impacted, albeit in different ways, by a society that is still far too accepting about the use of anti-gay language.
Rather than ruining the life of another impressionable young man, a better way to effect real change at Rutgers – and the nation at large – might be to work on changing the culture. More education and advocacy efforts aimed at enabling students better to understand sexual orientation, at training teachers about how to respond to anti-gay slurs in their classroom, and at getting gay youth (and their parents) to accept their sexuality, might be a more prudent and useful way to foster a less prejudiced society.
To help prevent tragic events like Clementi's suicide in future, we should make it our responsibility to tell any loudmouths we happen to encounter at the laundromat, or the gym, or the corner market, or at a family gathering, that we don't approve of their hateful language. If only one of Ravi's buddies had called him out for using the word "fag", maybe this sad story would've had a different ending.

Regards,
KRS

 

[Jaykay767]

Dear KRS,

what if Tyler was not gay ?. would Ravi be still punished.

Infact in all schools, colleges, pubs, bars, offices in US, people use abusive languages, hate, racial, gay etc..

why are they not being punished.

will you punish them only if someone suicides !

In this silly country, Gays have suddenly become some kind of holy cows. why are you not putting people into jail when normal hetrosexual people are harrassed, victims of hate crimes etc..

& what if a Gay harrasses a hetrosexual guy, will you jail him. can you even think of putting him behind bars.

this nonsense of political correctness has gone insane !!

Cheers,
JK

 

[KRS]

Dear Sri Jaykay767 Ji,

I agree that the concept of 'hate crime' is about PC and for a society grappling with the fact that there are open LGBT folks demanding to be treated the same. Same over sensitivity is also being applied to other minorities such as blacks etc., who face real discrimination still.

It is quite interesting to post here an opinion posted by a self acknowledged gay man. Most of the opinions of gay folks about Dharun verdict run like this:

I just wanted to throw my 2 cents in. I am a gay man. And I am saddened by this decision. I also saddened to think that the average straight person out there thinks that this decision has anything to do with "a gay agenda". The blame here falls directly on the shoulders of the "straight" community. In their TOTAL lack of understanding about what it is like and/or feels like to be gay in this country, the straight community in this case rose up to "defend the rights of gay kids from being bullied, harassed, intimidated, etc etc...blah blah blah."Well, as a gay man let me tell those people who think they "defended us" something...you are hypocrites! Instead of looking inward and really trying to understand the struggle gay folks have navigating this very straight world (and I could give people literally HUNDREDS of examples of how that looks for us)...the straight community once again makes a decision on behalf of gay people to "right a wrong". Dharun Ravi did something that wasn't "sensitive". I agree that he made a bad choice. But the reason Tyler Clementi committed suicide, similar to why I think about committing suicide A LOT, is bc the culture/USA I live in has completely NOT NOT NOT met my developmental needs as a gay person. Who is to blame?....myself, my parents, my teachers, my counselors, my coaches, my friends parents, my etc etc etc.So in this situation what happened was...straight people said to themselves, "we need to protect the rights of gay kids and not let them be bullied, harassed, intimidated, etc etc"....well, straigh people, you have it wrong! U missed the mark!We don't need justice from ur prosecution of Dharun Ravi. If you REALLY want to help....u REALLY care...CONTEXUALIZE into the very fabric of our culture that being gay is normal!!!!!! Don't tell me "you accept it" or "it's ok" or "I don't judge you"...I mean literally create a society that allows us gay folks to feel like our journey from birth to death has NOTHING to do a our sexual preference at all, period!!! Anything less than that is the straight community marginalizing us, and offering up a scapegoat as a sacrificial lamb to appease their own guilt.Sorry Dharun that you were the scapegoat. They couldn't possibly blame the parents for not parenting correctly or ur school system for not building ego strength or ur friends for not building ur sense of self...etc etc etc. Nope, ur the scapegoat so society doesn't have to look inward. Sad.
​

Comments on React to the Dharun Ravi verdict in the webcam spying case | New Jersey Real-Time News - Page 2 -

Yet, some among us see no problem and claim that Dharun was not scapegoated! Go, figure.

By the way, looks like you inordinately like the word 'silly'!

Regards,
KRS

 

[Nara]

Dharun used webcam to capture the gay act on the video, encouraged others to watch through twitter. Ravi & his laywers have agreed to this !!

JK, you are jumping to conclusions, please read the articles carefully. There were only two occassions. The first one is when they actually watched the two men kissing, after which they switched the webcam off. The second time Tyler himself pulled the plug, nobody could watch anything. No recording, no broadcasting, all this is myth. Read the New Yorker article to understand the dynamics better.

BTW, I fully support LGBT rights, and they being a persecuted minority, their rights need to be protected. I do not condone what Dharun did. My point is only that I think the soecity got themselevs a nice brown boy scapegoat and they are lynching him high as though that will absolve their sins.

You may still insist the video was recorded for broadcast, all I can say is it is a case of insisting rabbits come with three legs.

Cheers!

 

[Nara]

....It is quite interesting to post here an opinion posted by a self acknowledged gay man. Most of the opinions of gay folks about Dharun verdict run like this:

Thanks dear brother for posting the comments of this self-identified gay man, he articulated my own take on this affair perfectly.

Cheers!

 

[KRS]

Mine too.

Regards,
KRS

Thanks dear brother for posting the comments of this self-identified gay man, he articulated my own take on this affair perfectly.

Cheers!

 

[Jaykay767]

Dear Sri Jaykay767 Ji,

I agree that the concept of 'hate crime' is about PC and for a society grappling with the fact that there are open LGBT folks demanding to be treated the same. Same over sensitivity is also being applied to other minorities such as blacks etc., who face real discrimination still.

It is quite interesting to post here an opinion posted by a self acknowledged gay man. Most of the opinions of gay folks about Dharun verdict run like this:

Yet, some among us see no problem and claim that Dharun was not scapegoated! Go, figure.

By the way, looks like you inordinately like the word 'silly'!

Regards,
KRS

Dear KRS,

Agree, the gay person has explained this extremely well ! - I really liked the way he put the entire thing in context !

Also have to agree with you, I use the word silly inordinately

Cheers,
JK

 

[Yamaka]

Dear KRS,

Agree, the gay person has explained this extremely well ! - I really liked the way he put the entire thing in context !

Also have to agree with you, I use the word silly inordinately

Cheers,
JK

Hello JK:

This gay person does not understand the dynamic nature of this deeply rooted Societal Issue..and how CHANGES come along..slowly, steadily one step at a time.

Society, since 1980s at least, understood the Pathology of Homophobia and is willing to take medicine in the form of laws and regulations.

Medicines take time to take full effect.

Dharun case is a perfect example that the country rose up to the occasion. Jury has spoken.

We need to wait for Judge Glenn Berman's Punishment Phase of the Crime.

I have pleaded with him to give Suspended Jail Time (maybe 6 months to 3 years) for Dharun, in lieu of it I say levy a stiff penalty of $30,000 and 3000 hours of Community Service.

Please go to Change.org and find out what kind of support Dharun has in the US:

So far hardly 200 people signed to Exonerate him of all bias intimidation, invasion of privacy, and other crimes that the Jurors found him guilty.

As a comparison, Trayvon Martin Petition has gathered about 850,000 signatures, so far.

Go figure!

Cheers.

 

[Nara]

JK and others,

Read this interview Dharun has given. Finding him guilty of hate crime is a travesty. The tragedy of Tyler's death has been compounded by this. Two families have been devastated because of the society’s difficulties to come to grips with homophobia.

Exclusive interview with Dharun Ravi: 'I'm very sorry about Tyler' | NJ.com

 

[Yamaka]

On Dharun's Belated Remorse:

Now it appears the most incompetent Defense Attorney Steve Altman is engineering a PR campaign to make Dharun look remorseful. Very strange. All after the fact.

I have opined here that Dharun should take the Witness Stand at the Trial to show his remorse to the Jurors and explain what he did on Sept 21, 2010 (when he claims that he kept his webcam away from Tyler's bed and put the computer to sleep, which is contradicted by the Prosecution).

He refused to take the Plea Deal II, which was very generous. He misread the Prosecution and took the matter to the Trial and lost it.

He had a chance to take the Stand. He did not. He lost that wonderful chance to reveal to the Jurors who he was about 18 months ago.

Now, he is playing the Second Fiddle to Steve Altman. Blaming the "shady looking MB" for everything!

Masterful deceit. MB can now sue him in the Civil Court for damages.

In all, I get the feeling this Belated Remorseful Interview is just an After Thought to the Jury Verdict.

And, Dharun is finding fault with the Jurors, which is a very bad idea, IMO... Judge Berman will read this interview and may take a very hard stand during the Punishment Phase.

Dharun wants MORE trouble, and he will get it... Let him take it to the Appeals and make Altman a millionaire!

The simple facts remain: That his tweets "Tyler was a Poor Gay", and he wanted to "Keep the Gays Out" all showed his homophobia (may be a subtle one), which only prompted him to do the actions on Sep 19, 21 2010.

Jury found him guilty on his ACTIONS.

Pay the price, and move on Dharun... your remorse is very late and very artificial.

Wait & watch.

 

[Jaykay767]

On Dharun's Belated Remorse:

Now it appears the most incompetent Defense Attorney Steve Altman is engineering a PR campaign to make Dharun look remorseful. Very strange. All after the fact.

I have opined here that Dharun should take the Witness Stand at the Trial to show his remorse to the Jurors and explain what he did on Sept 21, 2010 (when he claims that he kept his webcam away from Tyler's bed and put the computer to sleep, which is contradicted by the Prosecution).

He refused to take the Plea Deal II, which was very generous. He misread the Prosecution and took the matter to the Trial and lost it.

He had a chance to take the Stand. He did not. He lost that wonderful chance to reveal to the Jurors who he was about 18 months ago.

Now, he is playing the Second Fiddle to Steve Altman. Blaming the "shady looking MB" for everything!

Masterful deceit. MB can now sue him in the Civil Court for damages.

In all, I get the feeling this Belated Remorseful Interview is just an After Thought to the Jury Verdict.

And, Dharun is finding fault with the Jurors, which is a very bad idea, IMO... Judge Berman will read this interview and may take a very hard stand during the Punishment Phase.

Dharun wants MORE trouble, and he will get it... Let him take it to the Appeals and make Altman a millionaire!

The simple facts remain: That his tweets "Tyler was a Poor Gay", and he wanted to "Keep the Gays Out" all showed his homophobia (may be a subtle one), which only prompted him to do the actions on Sep 19, 21 2010.

Jury found him guilty on his ACTIONS.

Pay the price, and move on Dharun... your remorse is very late and very artificial.

Wait & watch.

Hi Yamaka,

wow ! you are being too strong on Dharun. first of all you are assuming he refused the plea deal, he misread the prosecutors, he is finding fault with the jurors etc..

He is follwing what his parents & lawyers are saying , so it is not his decisions.

Even if all these actions are unhelpful, the judge must have "common sense" & analyse - "after all this boy was 18 yrs, he did not do all this deliberately or with a criminal intent" & let him off with no jail term.

Actually, it is the judge who is on trail in this case now, lets see what he does. Jurors have obviously failed.

Cheers,
JK

 

[Yamaka]

Belated Remorse: What Good Is It Now? Why Didn't Dharun Take the Stand?

Hi Yamaka,

wow ! you are being too strong on Dharun. first of all you are assuming he refused the plea deal, he misread the prosecutors, he is finding fault with the jurors etc..

He is follwing what his parents & lawyers are saying , so it is not his decisions.

Even if all these actions are unhelpful, the judge must have "common sense" & analyse - "after all this boy was 18 yrs, he did not do all this deliberately or with a criminal intent" & let him off with no jail term.

Actually, it is the judge who is on trail in this case now, lets see what he does. Jurors have obviously failed.

Cheers,
JK

Hi JK:

Yes, Dharun is getting very bad advices from Day One. From his parents and Steve Altman.

It appears Dharun & Party are going for Appeal, and may even go to NJ Supreme Court to outlaw the "Hate Crime" law.

There is a serious RISK here which needs to be understood by Dharun Ravi, the convicted FELON as of today:

The Appellate Court and the Apex Court may uphold the convictions and INCREASE the punishment (assuming Judge Berman gives a very reasonable 6 months to 3 year, suspended Jail Time).

And, it is a common sense not to find fault with the Jury before the Punishment Phase.

Steve Altman needs to be sued for Professional Misconduct /Malpractice, IMO.

Wait & watch.

 

[Nara]

...He is follwing what his parents & lawyers are saying , so it is not his decisions.

Folks, dear Y has very strong opinion about Dharun, his family, what they should have done, how they should have raised their kid, how much they should care for GPA and SAT, and so on. I have tried to reason with hm with very little effect. So, I don't want to keep hammering on with him, he has his opinion and that is just fine with me.

At the same time I am compelled to correct some of the misinformation that is being repeatedly presented as fact. Please read the latest interview Dharun has given and make your own mind up. From this interview the feeling I get is Dharun was the one firm in not accepting the plea deal, it was his own decision. Here is what Dharun said about rejecting the plea deal:

"I’m never going to regret not taking the plea. If I took the plea, I would have had to testify that I did what I did to intimidate Tyler and that would be a lie. I won’t ever get up there and tell the world I hated Tyler because he was gay, or tell the world I was trying to hurt or intimidate him because it’s not true."


​

Not many people are put in such a grim situation, one in which wrong choice comes with dire consequence. Dharun made a courageous choice and his trust in the justice system failed him. I think he is worthy of admiration, not derision.

When it is not our own skin on the line, it is easy to criticize, he should have done this or that or whatever. I for one would have supported him 100% if he had taken the plea deal. But now, as much as I weep for his predicament, I admire him for the courage and contrition he is showing post conviction. Just take a look at these poignant comments:

I’m not the same person I was two years ago, I don’t even recognize the person I was two years ago."

"I wanted to talk to his parents, but I was afraid. I didn’t know what to say."


​

This kid could be any one of our kids, a million other kids, who do stupid stuff that they regret later. If Tyler had not jumped to his death Dharun would have led his life in blissful obscurity that all of us are in. Something completely out of his hands changed his life ever so dreadfully. This is not the time to pile on. It is time to show some compassion, and support, for the courage this young man is showing against such great odds.

Once again, I don't expect Yamaka to agree with me, he is already deeply committed to his POV. I am addressing others, those in India who may not have all the facts, please don't think badly of Dharun, he just got caught up in the culture war raging in the U.S. It could have been the son of any one of us, it could have been my own son. My heart goes out to Dharun.

Cheers!

 

[Nara]

Please take a look at this:

Exclusive interview with Dharun Ravi: 'I'm very sorry about Tyler' | NJ.com

I strongly recommend this video, it puts lot of stuff we are talking about in context.....

 

[Nara]

Folks, if you think Dharun is being scapegoated and is deserving of your support, please sign this petition:

http://wh.gov/NM1

 

[கால பைரவன்]

It is true that Dharun is being scapegoated but blaming the society, in general, for the way trial was conducted is not dissimilar from blaming Dharun for Clementi's suicide. The events might be interrelated but the majority of the blame should go to the prosecutors who were overzealous. I think it is the agenda of the prosecution and their own understanding of the LGBT issue that led them to add several charges of hate crime and bias intimidation. The jury is comprised of ordinary people and Clementi's death could have easily swayed their opinion.

And Yamaka, I mentioned "brown boy" because I do not feel that the prosecution would have been this harsh otherwise!

 

[KRS]

Dear brother Nara Ji,

Thank you for this post. I was going to post along the same lines - this poor kid has shown courage of his conviction. I would be proud to call him my own son.

You and I don't see eye to eye on many things; but on this we are in full agreement. Hopefully the law under which he is convicted will be thrown out as unconstitutional.

Regards,
KRS

Folks, dear Y has very strong opinion about Dharun, his family, what they should have done, how they should have raised their kid, how much they should care for GPA and SAT, and so on. I have tried to reason with hm with very little effect. So, I don't want to keep hammering on with him, he has his opinion and that is just fine with me.

At the same time I am compelled to correct some of the misinformation that is being repeatedly presented as fact. Please read the latest interview Dharun has given and make your own mind up. From this interview the feeling I get is Dharun was the one firm in not accepting the plea deal, it was his own decision. Here is what Dharun said about rejecting the plea deal:

"I’m never going to regret not taking the plea. If I took the plea, I would have had to testify that I did what I did to intimidate Tyler and that would be a lie. I won’t ever get up there and tell the world I hated Tyler because he was gay, or tell the world I was trying to hurt or intimidate him because it’s not true."


​

Not many people are put in such a grim situation, one in which wrong choice comes with dire consequence. Dharun made a courageous choice and his trust in the justice system failed him. I think he is worthy of admiration, not derision.

When it is not our own skin on the line, it is easy to criticize, he should have done this or that or whatever. I for one would have supported him 100% if he had taken the plea deal. But now, as much as I weep for his predicament, I admire him for the courage and contrition he is showing post conviction. Just take a look at these poignant comments:

I’m not the same person I was two years ago, I don’t even recognize the person I was two years ago."

"I wanted to talk to his parents, but I was afraid. I didn’t know what to say."


​

This kid could be any one of our kids, a million other kids, who do stupid stuff that they regret later. If Tyler had not jumped to his death Dharun would have led his life in blissful obscurity that all of us are in. Something completely out of his hands changed his life ever so dreadfully. This is not the time to pile on. It is time to show some compassion, and support, for the courage this young man is showing against such great odds.

Once again, I don't expect Yamaka to agree with me, he is already deeply committed to his POV. I am addressing others, those in India who may not have all the facts, please don't think badly of Dharun, he just got caught up in the culture war raging in the U.S. It could have been the son of any one of us, it could have been my own son. My heart goes out to Dharun.

Cheers!

 

[Jaykay767]

Hi JK:

Yes, Dharun is getting very bad advices from Day One. From his parents and Steve Altman.

It appears Dharun & Party are going for Appeal, and may even go to NJ Supreme Court to outlaw the "Hate Crime" law.

There is a serious RISK here which needs to be understood by Dharun Ravi, the convicted FELON as of today:

The Appellate Court and the Apex Court may uphold the convictions and INCREASE the punishment (assuming Judge Berman gives a very reasonable 6 months to 3 year, suspended Jail Time).

And, it is a common sense not to find fault with the Jury before the Punishment Phase.

Steve Altman needs to be sued for Professional Misconduct /Malpractice, IMO.

Wait & watch.

Hi Yamaka,

I wish Dharun had you as his lawyer, mentor because in this world, one needs to be realistic & pragmatic.

However I completely disagree with you on the issue of - Dharun taking a stand that he is not going for a plea deal because he is NOT guilty.

Unfortunately, Idealism, honesty, fighting to clear ones name, has all long but disappeared. Dharun is still a idealist because of his age. Lets not condemn him for not being pragmatic, realistic, cutting deals, etc.. for which most of us are experts including myself (no pun intended). Lets not condemn him because he was stupid, not smart etc..

Political correctness, being stupid, being idealistic cannot & should NOT trump justice. thats why I said earlier, I was extremely impressed by the "writings of the gay person" why Dharun is not guilty.

Cheers,
JK

 

[Jaykay767]

Folks, dear Y has very strong opinion about Dharun, his family, what they should have done, how they should have raised their kid, how much they should care for GPA and SAT, and so on. I have tried to reason with hm with very little effect. So, I don't want to keep hammering on with him, he has his opinion and that is just fine with me.

At the same time I am compelled to correct some of the misinformation that is being repeatedly presented as fact. Please read the latest interview Dharun has given and make your own mind up. From this interview the feeling I get is Dharun was the one firm in not accepting the plea deal, it was his own decision. Here is what Dharun said about rejecting the plea deal:

"I’m never going to regret not taking the plea. If I took the plea, I would have had to testify that I did what I did to intimidate Tyler and that would be a lie. I won’t ever get up there and tell the world I hated Tyler because he was gay, or tell the world I was trying to hurt or intimidate him because it’s not true."


Not many people are put in such a grim situation, one in which wrong choice comes with dire consequence. Dharun made a courageous choice and his trust in the justice system failed him. I think he is worthy of admiration, not derision.

When it is not our own skin on the line, it is easy to criticize, he should have done this or that or whatever. I for one would have supported him 100% if he had taken the plea deal. But now, as much as I weep for his predicament, I admire him for the courage and contrition he is showing post conviction. Just take a look at these poignant comments:

I’m not the same person I was two years ago, I don’t even recognize the person I was two years ago."

"I wanted to talk to his parents, but I was afraid. I didn’t know what to say."



This kid could be any one of our kids, a million other kids, who do stupid stuff that they regret later. If Tyler had not jumped to his death Dharun would have led his life in blissful obscurity that all of us are in. Something completely out of his hands changed his life ever so dreadfully. This is not the time to pile on. It is time to show some compassion, and support, for the courage this young man is showing against such great odds.

Once again, I don't expect Yamaka to agree with me, he is already deeply committed to his POV. I am addressing others, those in India who may not have all the facts, please don't think badly of Dharun, he just got caught up in the culture war raging in the U.S. It could have been the son of any one of us, it could have been my own son. My heart goes out to Dharun.

Cheers!

Brilliantly said !!. Absolutely agree with you !.

After listening to Dharun, I only admire him for taking a principled stand & fighting for it despite the hardships of court battle, the media coverage etc..

 

[Yamaka]

Dharun Ravi is NOT a Scapegoat! He is a Convicted Felon, for his ACTION !!

It is true that Dharun is being scapegoated but blaming the society, in general, for the way trial was conducted is not dissimilar from blaming Dharun for Clementi's suicide. The events might be interrelated but the majority of the blame should go to the prosecutors who were overzealous. I think it is the agenda of the prosecution and their own understanding of the LGBT issue that led them to add several charges of hate crime and bias intimidation. The jury is comprised of ordinary people and Clementi's death could have easily swayed their opinion.

And Yamaka, I mentioned "brown boy" because I do not feel that the prosecution would have been this harsh otherwise!

1. Dharun is not a scaptegoat. He actively engaged in (mildly?) a homophobic act in spying on Tyler Clementi who saw a gay companion in the dorm. By his own admission, he violated the law by webcaming Tyler & MB and tweeting about it to his dozens of friends.

His words like, "To keep the Gays Away", and Tyler is a "Poor Gay" all showed his homophobia.

2. The Prosecution wanted to be kind to him and offered generous Plea Deal II (Just 600 hours of Community Service), which he rejected on "some principle" (What's is it? Now, that the Jury found him a Felon!).

Yes, since 1980s, the LGBT issues are in the front burner of the Country... Still about 30% of the population is homophobic (mostly religious conservatives), like Rick Santorums of the world, and many Indians in the US.

Dharun has opined once he found out that Tyler is a "Poor Gay" that his father would throw him out of the room! Why? Is this not an expression of "Anti-Gay"?

There are massive injustices done to LGBT community by these people everyday. Laws are passed to protect this community, and Prosecutors are willing to enforce the law.

Middlesex County Prosecutor was just enforcing the strict anti-gay laws of the State of NJ. That's all.

3. Tyler Clementi's Death IS the KEY issue here - the 800 lb gorilla. To deny it is being very naive, although the Prosecutor did not mention a word of it during the Trial. It's given. Everyone knows it, including the Jurors, Judge and Witness. Except, probably, Ravis! That's a tragedy.

Whether one believes it or not, indirectly Dharun Ravi was at least partially responsible for the death of Tyler Clementi - a fact... because of what happened on Sep 19 & 21 2010, and Tyler died the next day.

Soon after Tyler's Death, President Obama and Gov Christie opined and showed sympathy for all the gay kids by saying, "It gets better everyday" messages.

4. "Brown Color" has NEVER been an issue here. It's very unfortunate that some Indians here think so..Very sad.

5. There are about 3.2 million Indians in the US (PIOs and NRIs). Only about 220 have signed in the Petition to Exonerage Dharun Ravi, as per Change.org.

Why?

Now, we are in the middle of this case: We need to wait and watch how the whole thing ends!

Is Dharun a Principled Young Man? Or is he a Homophobic Liar? Only the Courts can say for sure!

A Shakespearen Drama is unfolding!

Wait & watch.

 

[Yamaka]

Hi Yamaka,

I wish Dharun had you as his lawyer, mentor because in this world, one needs to be realistic & pragmatic.

However I completely disagree with you on the issue of - Dharun taking a stand that he is not going for a plea deal because he is NOT guilty.

Unfortunately, Idealism, honesty, fighting to clear ones name, has all long but disappeared. Dharun is still a idealist because of his age. Lets not condemn him for not being pragmatic, realistic, cutting deals, etc.. for which most of us are experts including myself (no pun intended). Lets not condemn him because he was stupid, not smart etc..

Political correctness, being stupid, being idealistic cannot & should NOT trump justice. thats why I said earlier, I was extremely impressed by the "writings of the gay person" why Dharun is not guilty.

Cheers,
JK

Hi JK:

I believe what that gay person wrote is totally incorrect.. He seems to be very confused. He wants the Society to fully accept the LGBT as normal people. But he does not understand the MECHANICS of the change that's taking place in the Society: Slowly and steadily. You just can't expect a 100% transformation over night... the PROCESS is slow, and there are many set backs along the way.

What I feel is, since 1980s, the Society is changing everyday.. my estimate says that about 70% of Americans have accepted the LGBT as normal, and agree that homosexuality is normal.

But, there are still about 30% homophobic (most are religious conservatives, which includes many Indians here). These people commit untold atrocities against LGBT everyday.

Most States have passed strict anti-gay laws (called Hate Crime Laws) to legally protect this "vulnerable people".

Dharun Ravi's case became a National Focus because homophobia was the underlying cause for the Violation of Privacy, a Felony under law.

Then, how could this gay person support Dharun Ravi on this? It's is very inconsistent.

Anti-Gay crimes must be punished to uphold the strict laws that legislature passed in support of LGBT.

I suspect that this gay person is not a true member of the LGBT - he could very well be a Black Sheep or a hired gun to obfuscate the issue on hand!

Wait & watch.

Cheers.

 

[KRS]

Sri Yamaka Said:

I believe what that gay person wrote is totally incorrect.. He seems to be very confused. He wants the Society to fully accept the LGBT as normal people. But he does not understand the MECHANICS of the change that's taking place in the Society: Slowly and steadily. You just can't expect a 100% transformation over night... the PROCESS is slow, and there are many set backs along the way.

What I feel is, since 1980s, the Society is changing everyday.. my estimate says that about 70% of Americans have accepted the LGBT as normal, and agree that homosexuality is normal.

I suspect that this gay person is not a true member of the LGBT - he could very well be a Black Sheep or a hired gun to obfuscate the issue on hand!

This is totally beyond being funny! Is this not exactly the attitude that the HS person was talking about? That the straight folks tell the HS folks that their situation is normal? Without making a true transformation, while pushing for knee jerk laws against homophobia?

Instead of introspecting on what this person with poignancy was saying, our friend here is suspecting whether this guy is for real!

I guess what one chooses not to listen to, does not exist!

Regards,
KRS

 

[Nara]

....I suspect that this gay person is not a true member of the LGBT - he could very well be a Black Sheep or a hired gun to obfuscate the issue on hand!

Dear Y, shooting the messenger is not very rational.

 

[Yamaka]

Hello All:

Here is the 20/20 ABC Interview of Dharun Ravi broadcast tonight: I suspect there is a gap between what Dharun says NOW and what he did by way of extensive tweeting about 18 months ago... Now he comes across a bit more matured.

I believe the Jurors believed all the tweets he made about Tyler on Sep 19, 21, 22, 2010 and came to the conclusion as presented in the Verdict.

Please read on....
"Rutgers’ Ravi: ‘I Wasn’t the One Who Caused Him to Jump’

Former Rutgers student Dharun Ravi, convicted last week of a hate crime for spying on his gay roommate’s date, regrets his “dumb kid” actions, but told ABC News today that he takes “comfort” in the belief that his webcam peeking is not the reason Tyler Clementi jumped to his death.
Ravi, 20, of Plainsboro, N.J., spoke about the case just days after a New Jersey jury convicted him of invasion of privacy, bias intimidation, witness tampering and hindering arrest for using a webcam to peek at Clementi’s date in their college dorm room on Sept. 19, 2010 and encouraging others to spy during a second date, on Sept. 21, 2010.
Ravi was not charged in connection with Clementi’s death.
“Even though I wasn’t the one who caused him to jump off the bridge, I did do things wrong and I was stupid about a lot of stuff,” Ravi said in an exclusive broadcast interview with “20/20″ co-anchor Chris Cuomo.
Watch Chris Cuomo’s exclusive broadcast interview with Dharun Ravi on “20/20 today at 10 p.m. ET.


Ravi, who was 18 at the time, was initially rattled by Clementi’s death, which the press depicted as the result of cyber bullying.
He asked himself, “Is this because of me?” Ravi told Cuomo.
But Ravi said that what he learned about his freshman roommate during the course of legal proceedings — including information that hasn’t been made public — convinced him that the 18-year-old took his life for reasons that didn’t have anything to do with Ravi and his webcam.
“The more and more I found out, it would be kind of obnoxious of me to think that I could have this profound effect on him,” Ravi said.
At another point he added, “After all this time and reading his conversations and how and what he was doing before, I really don’t think he cared at all. I feel like I was an insignificant part to his life. That’s giving me comfort now.”
Ravi also pointed out that Clementi left behind a note, and that its contents have never been made public.
“The fact that we weren’t allowed to read it, that they said it didn’t have anything to do with this, that gave me comfort also because I figured if it has nothing to do with me…it must have been something else that was going on,” he said.
“He didn’t even care about this… He had bigger problems in his life,” he said.
Ravi, alerted by his dorm resident adviser that Clementi was aware of his spying and wanted a room change, sent Clementi a text and an email apologizing. That text was sent about the same time that Clementi jumped off the bridge.
“What is frustrating was I never knew if he got my text or the e-mail that I sent. It was very frustrating to think I didn’t get a chance to say anything to him. To this day, I just say you know what, I’ll just think he read it and he got it and I’m going to accept that as that’s what happened. …At least he had to hear what I had to say.”
Ravi is scheduled to be sentenced May 21 and could face five to 10 years in prison. As an Indian citizen who is in the U.S. on a green card, Ravi could also face deportation.
Despite the hate crime conviction, Ravi maintains his innocence. He said he never hated Clementi and is not homophobic. That’s why, he said, he turned down prosecutors when they offered a plea deal that included no jail time in exchange for admitting to charges of intimidation against Clementi.
“I had to go up there in front of a judge under oath and say I intimidated Tyler because of sexual orientation — (to say that) I did this because I had this hate for gay people,” he said. “I don’t hate gay people.”
It is believed Clementi learned about his roommate’s spying over Ravi’s Twitter account, on which Ravi posted messages about the incidents.
The first time, Ravi said, he and a friend watched Clementi and his date kissing for just few seconds from another dorm room before quickly shutting it down. The second time, Ravi said, he planned to let a friend watch the webcam feed, and through a Twitter post he also let other friends know about his plans. But he later decided against it and turned the camera away from Clementi’s bed, he told Cuomo.
During Ravi’s trial, the prosecutor rejected Ravi’s claim to have turned off his computer and turning the webcam away, arguing that it was Clementi who shut it off.
Ravi told Cuomo that his actions were never intended to hurt or shame Clementi and that the Twitter posts were just a way to keep in touch with his own friends and let them know what was going on in his life.
“Looking back, I was very self-absorbed with the whole thing. It was never, ‘What if Tyler finds out, how’s he going to feel about it?’” he said. “…I was 18, I was stupid, I wouldn’t think about my actions beyond a minute into a future. I was a dumb kid not thinking about it.”
Despite media depictions of Clementi and his suicide, Ravi said he believes the teen wasn’t fragile.
“Just because he’s gay doesn’t mean he’s automatically fragile and can’t deal with anything,” he said.
While Ravi believes he should face some punishment, that punishment shouldn’t include jail, he said.
“So much worse happens,” he said. “Kids actually get bullied and actually go through stuff much worse than this. I understand why people feel the need to punish me. Bad stuff happens and they need to set an example, but it’s unfortunate this has to be the case where this happens.”
Ravi said he feels he’s been taken advantage of.
“The people that are fighting for gay rights, they have a just cause. I think this kind of detracts from their cause,” he said. “This is something people can point to and say, ‘You guys are going overboard.’ I think it’s bad for them.”



I guess we need to wait for the Punishment Phase on May 21, 2012. Dharun & Party indicated that they would appeal the Verdict.
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I may not log on to this Site for sometime, as I will be away on Work Assignment. Going to DC for a month!

Take care.

Cheers.