View on views

[fire]

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Hi,
Can you share your view on following views?

Consistency (of thought, word and deed) and fear (of sin) are conjointly natural only to the high-born.

The high-born will never deviate from these three; good manners, truthfulness and modesty.

Of soil the plants that spring thereout will show the worth:
The words they speak declare the men of noble birth.

BTW you can guess the source of these views.

Thanks,
Fire

 

[tech_rsr]

I don't agree with them per se. They can become true if society conditions the high-born to become consistent and diligent in thought, afraid of sin and well mannered, truthful and modest. However, such is impossible if you have a society of high-borns and others. I suspect it is taken from a scripture such as Manu Smriti or a similar scripture. In any case, I don't think I recollect this from anything I remember from my limited reading of the scriptures.

Although traits like goodness and altruism are rated highly (for brownie points), they are actually ineffective in a social situation where you have multiple tribes/identities which aspire to maintain distinctness of identity. This is unless there is an underlying plutocracy or meritocracy which fosters mixing of these tribes. Such basic tribe-survival related aspects often control our "good" and "bad" and "generous". This is probably true of most of the higher castes in India, who have had the upper hand in terms of personal influence at some point. The dynamics of this have changed since the olden days, though.

 

[fire]

Are family values completely ignorable?

Hi,
The high-born may not be indicating to a caste or class.May be it is a family of good persons. If somebody commits some mischievous act, its quite common in villages to say 'I know your father and grandfather. They are good persons.How can you do this ,being in a such family?' . Even some people do marriages even today with families which they know good. Yes , exceptions are there.But don't you think the chances are more that a good man's son learning good activities ? And there is a social expectation that the person will follow his ancestor's footpath by doing good.It may be acting as a driving force for him.

Thanks,
Fire

 

[tech_rsr]

Interesting, because we can have situations like that - I know of many brahmin households who don't necessarily raise their children with the high morals traditionally associated with them. I also know of many non-brahmin families whose family environments are more conducive to developing a value system and morals.

I have come across questioning brahmins and believing non-brahmins. Indeed, the distinction between "high born" and others, although unclear in the original post, may stand for that.

It is true that a social conditioning which we typically see in our society is that based on one's father and grandfather, or one's family in general. I know a guy from a humble background who often goes around with pride about what he has achieved (he is an engineer) despite coming from a family of farmers. His pride is often misplaced, because of the value he associates with his achievement. He does not look at the challenges ahead of him and the mistakes, because he is drunk in his achievement. Although capable this lets him down.

I have seen a worse kind - those who take unjustifiable pride in the achievements of their families, while they themselves are losers. There is this kind as well. I daresay I have seen more brahmins in the second category and less in former category.

Naturally, this means that the social conditions we provide for the development of moral, ethical and other ideas in a child's mind is pivotal to the way the child forms ideas and opinions about the world around him. Such social conditioning can create jihadis, who can sacrifice themselves for a fictitious religious cause. It can also create generations of high achievers like the Ashkenazi Jews. It can lead a community of individuals to degeneration and disintegration as it has done in many communities world wide.

It is probably important to consider the extant social conditioning in our communities and how these conditions were - they will leave clues as to where we were in society, where we are heading and whether we are headed for the better or for the worse.

 

[N.R.Ranganathan]

view on views

Dear Mr.Fire,

Even though Barthruhari's ' Neeti satakam ' and நாலடியார் in Tamil
mention these characteristics found in men of nobility, you have quoted
the English translation of the following kural occuring in the அதிகாரம் -
குடிமை. முழு குறள் இதோ:

நிலத்தில் கிடந்தமை கால்காட்டும் காட்டும்
குலத்தில் பிறந்தார்வாய்ச் சொல்.

நெருப்பு அவர்களே, சரியா ?

The qualities required of men born in noble families are :
( I quote from the Kural itself )

நடுவுநிலைமை ; நாணம்; ஒழுக்கம்; வாய்மை;

முகமலர்ச்சி; ஈகை; இனிய சொல்; புறங்கூறாமை;

கோடி கிடைப்பதாயிருந்தாலும் குலப்பெருமையை விட்டுக்கொடாமை;

வறுமையிலும் தானம் செய்தல்;

வஞ்சனை இல்லாமை;

அன்பும், பண்பும்.

Even if there is an insignificant deficiency in such men, it would be
magnified and shown as an " afflicted Moon ".

Sir, do you think I am competent to comment on Thiruvalluvar ?!!!

We must try to follow and fashion our life according to the advice
given by Saint Thiruvalluvar.

 

[fire]

Great!!

Really great Sir.Mikka sari. That was from GU pope's Urai for Thirukkural. Here are the links

http://www.cs.utk.edu/~siddhart/thirukkural/PAL/porul_7.html

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Academy/8357/kcha096.html

The qualities you quoted , are they from the contents of 'Kudiyiyal' ?
We have a separate chapters like vaimai, but thats in different section.

Actually I started of asking 'What do you think about kudimai in Thirukkural'.But if I say ThirukKural people view would change and they wont give their true perception.

Sure even thoughts like this will make people suspect they are from some Hindu scriptures and against harmony if you don't explain the proper meaning and the source.

Dear Mr.Fire,

Even though Barthruhari's ' Neeti satakam ' and நாலடியார் in Tamil
mention these characteristics found in men of nobility, you have quoted
the English translation of the following kural occuring in the அதிகாரம் -
குடிமை. முழு குறள் இதோ:

நிலத்தில் கிடந்தமை கால்காட்டும் காட்டும்
குலத்தில் பிறந்தார்வாய்ச் சொல்.

நெருப்பு அவர்களே, சரியா ?

The qualities required of men born in noble families are :
( I quote from the Kural itself )

நடுவுநிலைமை ; நாணம்; ஒழுக்கம்; வாய்மை;

முகமலர்ச்சி; ஈகை; இனிய சொல்; புறங்கூறாமை;

கோடி கிடைப்பதாயிருந்தாலும் குலப்பெருமையை விட்டுக்கொடாமை;

வறுமையிலும் தானம் செய்தல்;

வஞ்சனை இல்லாமை;

அன்பும், பண்பும்.

Even if there is an insignificant deficiency in such men, it would be
magnified and shown as an " afflicted Moon ".

Sir, do you think I am competent to comment on Thiruvalluvar ?!!!

We must try to follow and fashion our life according to the advice
given by Saint Thiruvalluvar.

 

[N.R.Ranganathan]

view on views

Sir:

yes, its from 'Kudiyiyal' coming under porutpaal. In arathupaal, 'vaaimai'
comes under thuravaraviyal. In this we have the famous Kural :

எல்லா விளக்கும் விளக்கல்ல சான்றோர்க்குப்
பொய்யா விளக்கே விளக்கு.