The Secret of the Veda - Excerpts from Sri Aurobindo's book

[sangom]

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Would this mean that vaisyas are some times referred in vedas as "aryas"?

Regards,

'arya' here means one of our own kin and this is emphasized clearly again. sudra may be taken as being referred to as araNaaya (forest dwellers) next.

 

[ozone]

If there were such a precedence in the veda, do you think Rama would have beheaded Shambuka?

may be reading this could give some additional perspectives !
Hindu Revolution: Why Lord Rama killed Shambuka

 

[aramakrishnan1]

Shri aramakrishnan1,

According to Nirukta, the word sUdra means sucati draavayateeti sUdrah (one who is always in sorrow and runs - tries to runaway from it). Why should someone be in sorrow always, unless it is due to his sins? Chanakya's arthasastra seems to confirm this.

BG IX-32 is this:—
मां हि पार्थ व्यपाश्रित्य यॆऽपिस्युः पापयॊनयः।

māṃ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye:'pisyuḥ pāpayonayaḥ|

स्त्रियो वैश्यस्तथा शूद्रास्तेऽपि यान्ति परां गतिम् ॥

striyo vaiśyastathā śūdrāste:'pi yānti parāṃ gatim ||

If you are not in a position to get convinced from the above that Krishna includes women, vaisyas and sudras in the "pāpayonayaḥ" category, then I do not know how to make you understand. But in modern commentaries, it will be found that some convoluted effort is made not to bring in such a meaning because of the fear of feminist ire. Due to this, vaisyas and sudras also get out!

You say "O Arjuna, even those who may be born from the wombs of degraded women, merchants and menials; if they take full shelter of me, they also reach the supreme goal.", you are citing one of the modern commentaries/translation.

I give below some of the older translations/commentaries:

Rudra Vaisnava Sampradaya:​

Visnuswami

Sridhara Swami's Commentary What is there to wonder that bhakti or loving devotion to the Supreme Lord Krishna purifies one of previously abominable behaviour? When it liberates from samsara the perpetual cycle of birth and death even low born and unqualified persons. This is being confirmed here that those born sinfully out of wedlock, those born in the poorest and most degraded of families such as mleccha or meat eaters, those who are vaisyas the mercantile class engaged only in business, sudras the menial class, women and all others who are devoid of Vedic knowledge. If any of them are accepted by the bonafide spiritual preceptor in one of the four authorised channels of spiritual knowledge and take complete refuge in the Supreme Lord Krishna worshipping Him or any of His authorised incarnations and expansions, it is assured undoubtedly that they will attain the Supreme destination of eternal association with Him.

The above one belongs to the modern version. Now, let us see Sankara's commentary of this sloka —

मां हि (यस्मात्) पार्थ व्यपाश्रित्य - माम् आश्रयत्वॆन गृहीत्वा
यॆ अपि स्युः (भवेयुः) पापयोनयः पापा योनिः येषां ते पापयोनयः पापजन्मानः। के ते इति आह -स्त्रियो वैश्याः तथा शूद्राः ते अपि यान्ति (गच्छन्ति)
परां गतिं - प्रकृष्टां गतिम् ॥

A rough English translation of Sankara's commentary above will be:

They who are of sinful birth, are pāpayonayaḥ. Who are they? It is said here — women, vaisyas, as well as sudras. Even they attain to the supreme goal, O Partha, if they come to Me, seeking shelter in me.

Now, why are women pāpayonayaḥ? This goes to the Indra- Visvarupa (son of tvaṣṭā, a brahmin) episode. The earliest possible reference is in taittirīya saṃhitā 2.5.1. Indra transfers one-third of the brahmahatyā sin due to his killing viśvarūpa to women on account of which they started menstruating (called malavadvāsā) and staining their clothes.

sudra is a varna. it is not a person.
A person exhibits certain behavior which identifies him as of a varna for the time he exhibits that behavior.
One who pursues the purushartha of kama is sudra.The Srimad BhagavadGita sloka ibid means that however bad karma samskara a person may have accrued, if s/he turns to Bhagavan with whole heart, s/he reaches the highest.papayonayah r those who r born due incorrect relationship.
such births r taken as a result of particular karma samskara.
Even they attain to highest if they chose to.vyshya and sudra are varna. not ppl.
those who exhibit those varna characterstic, yet dedicates themselves to Bhagavan, speedily reaches him.
womenhood is gender. nothing especially good or bad with it. it is actions of a person that determine their future positions.If women r of so-called ‘sinful birth’, would they be respected so much in Bharatiya Samskriti?​

 

[nannilam_balasubramanian]

Thank you very much for your above input, really knowledge producing valuable
information. We all must be proud to have taken birth in this culturally and
religiously rich Bharatha Desam. We all owe our Respects and Pranams to this great
Nation and indeed we are indebted always to our sacred Vedas for many generations.
Our Vedas are themselves the authority being eternal - the Knowledge of God. Above
all we all must be proud to have had the personages called Rishis for spiritual discoveries
which our legends speak always.
Pranams once again.

Balasubramanian
Ambattur

 

[aramakrishnan1]

Thank you very much for your above input, really knowledge producing valuable
information. We all must be proud to have taken birth in this culturally and
religiously rich Bharatha Desam. We all owe our Respects and Pranams to this great
Nation and indeed we are indebted always to our sacred Vedas for many generations.
Our Vedas are themselves the authority being eternal - the Knowledge of God. Above
all we all must be proud to have had the personages called Rishis for spiritual discoveries
which our legends speak always.
Pranams once again.

Balasubramanian
Ambattur

Dear nannilam_balasubramanian,

In various forums across the Indian webworld, we are fighting a war of words against MacCaulay-Putras, Marxists and the so-called Secular Indians. The reason for unity in India in the yester-years was only seen during Indo-Pak cricket matches. But thanks to the 7 years of Cong. rule, Children of Bharat varsha across the webworld are united for a greater cause of reviving Bharatiya Samskriti. We are like the squirrels that helped Shri.Rama to build the Rama Sethu doing our bit for reviving Bharat.

 

[nannilam_balasubramanian]

Yes. If we peruse our history, Bharat Desam, particularly South India,
saw really a golden era, during the periods of Chola, Pallava and Pandyas
besides Chalukyas, much importance was given towards the development
of our ancient culture and religion and this part of the Country really
flourished from the religious angle too. It is my humble opinion that Dharma
and Science if go together to improve the values of our human society,
India will certainly flourish in the coming decade to a higher platform. We
see now a days, here and there, some section of society are misguided in
the acts like inter caste marriage etc, rather we should put in our effort
with good motives to enhance our culture, tradition, historical beliefs, etc.
that will pay a good and applaud-able way so that our future generation
do not suffer.

Balasubramanian
Ambattur
together