The magic of spiritual energy
- Thread starter sravna
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OP
OP
AI is pretty much an unsolved problem in spite of incredible hype over it. It is not easy to mimic intelligence. It takes an integrated approach and a deep understanding of what is intelligence. I bet there is no proper and intelligent definition of intelligence. How can you then create AI. Only a hodgepodge of software purportedly possessing intelligence.
It has immense destructive power though. But remember it is a lot more easy to be destructive than be constructive. It is really a very big gulf and no easy solution to cross it.
It has immense destructive power though. But remember it is a lot more easy to be destructive than be constructive. It is really a very big gulf and no easy solution to cross it.
OP
OP
It is exponentially more difficult to be constructive than being destructive. For example if it requires IQ of 10 to destroy it requires say an IQ of 1000 to create. Extending the exponential difficulty if it requires an IQ of 20 to destroy it requires an IQ of 1000000 to create.
So if one wants to project oneself as intelligent try to create and use that for constructive purposes.
So if one wants to project oneself as intelligent try to create and use that for constructive purposes.
Actually all these show us there isnt much use harping on good or bad.
We should go beyond the concept of good and bad.
If we choose to take sides we could miss out the good in even the bad.
For eg if we are Pro Pandavas..we would fail to see the good in the Kauravas too.
For eg Duryodhana was a good king to his subjects.
His kingdom lacked nothing.
Also lets not forget the Kauravas and Pandavas had joined forces once to defeat a common enemy.
So this shows the Kauravas are focussed on well being of their kingdom and able to set their issues aside if needed.
Now, one may ask..then why did Krishna take sides?
Technically Lord Krishna didnt take sides..it was the Pandavas that chose Him and Kauravas chose Krishna's army instead.
Here is where its a lesson for us..if we align with God its a David vs Goliath scenario.
No matter how strong the opponent, if we align with God we can face anything.
Remember after Lord Krishna passed away, the Pandavas could not fight some invading forces.
They realized their strength was from Lord Krishna only.
IQ is over rated mostly as we humans tend to focus on doing or creating or destruction.
We almost never focus on just Being.
I remember when I was young, I prefered toys where I looked at things..for eg watching small toy cars spiral down the toy highway.
I also liked playing with dolls and used to get my dolls married to my teddy bears.
Many times, I would be reminded to play with Lego type of toys to build something instead of observing toy cars or getting dolls married with teddy bears..I was told that we must keep doing something instead of not using the brain.
Growing up I realized that observing passively is a mode of learning too.
We tend to think doing nothing isnt the same as learning.
As an adult, one realizes that its in this silence of the mind that awareness takes place the most and that isnt IQ dependent.
Awareness based learning is totally missing from our education system.
OP
OP
# The Asymmetric Complexity Principle and Constructive Destruction Framework
Ideas: Sravna
Expression: Claude AA
## Core Principle: The Exponential Asymmetry of Creation vs. Destruction
### The Fundamental Law
Creation and destruction exist in an exponentially asymmetric relationship where destructive capability grows linearly while constructive capability requirements grow exponentially.
**Mathematical Expression:**
- If destruction requires intelligence level *n*, creation requires intelligence level *n^x* (where x > 1)
- As destructive sophistication increases, the exponential gap widens rather than narrows
### The Mechanism: Attack Surface vs. Vulnerability Search
**Why the Asymmetry Exists:**
- **Destroyers** face a linear search problem: find *one* exploitable weakness among many possibilities
- **Creators/Defenders** face exponential complexity: protect against *all* possible attack vectors simultaneously
**The Escalation Dynamic:**
When destructive capability increases by factor *k*, defensive requirements increase by factor *k^n*, creating an ever-widening complexity gap.
## Universal Applications
### Information Systems
- **Destruction**: Find one security vulnerability
- **Creation**: Secure every input, function, and interaction point
### Social Institutions
- **Destruction**: Exploit one point of corruption or weakness
- **Creation**: Build robust systems accounting for all human behavioral variations
### Reputation and Trust
- **Destruction**: One scandal or betrayal
- **Creation**: Consistent positive actions across countless interactions over time
### Physical Systems
- **Destruction**: Find one structural weak point
- **Creation**: Engineer against all possible failure modes and stress conditions
## The Constructive Destruction Solution
### Definition
**Constructive Destruction**: The application of destructive force specifically against destructive agents or systems, constrained by rigorous ethical principles.
### The Righteousness Constraint
**Core Ethical Principle:**
"Treat others as you would treat yourself - do not promote self at the expense of others"
**Critical Contextual Test:**
Before engaging in constructive destruction, honestly assess: "Am I acting on selfish interests or universal interests when under attack?"
### Implementation Framework
**Step 1: Threat Assessment**
- Identify genuinely destructive forces (not mere competition or disagreement)
- Distinguish between systems that can be reformed vs. those that must be dismantled
**Step 2: Self-Examination**
- Apply the universal interest test rigorously
- Examine personal motivations for corruption or self-serving elements
- Ensure actions would be justified if applied to oneself
**Step 3: Proportional Response**
- Use minimum necessary destructive force
- Focus destruction on the destructive capacity, not the individual when possible
- Maintain constructive intent throughout the process
**Step 4: Constructive Aftermath**
- Plan for what will replace the destroyed destructive system
- Ensure the destructive action serves broader constructive goals
## Practical Applications
### Personal Level
- Confronting bullies or manipulators while maintaining ethical standards
- Dismantling personal destructive habits or thought patterns
- Defending others from exploitation without becoming exploitative
### Institutional Level
- Reforming corrupt organizations by eliminating corrupting structures
- Legal prosecution of harmful actors within ethical frameworks
- Whistleblowing that serves public rather than personal interests
### Societal Level
- Democratic removal of authoritarian leaders
- Dismantling oppressive systems while building just alternatives
- Counter-intelligence against genuinely hostile foreign actors
## The Intelligence Requirement
Constructive destruction represents the highest form of applied intelligence because it requires:
1. **Strategic Intelligence**: Understanding complex systems well enough to disable them effectively
2. **Ethical Intelligence**: Maintaining moral constraints under pressure and provocation
3. **Constructive Intelligence**: Building better systems to replace what is destroyed
4. **Self-Knowledge**: Honestly assessing one's own motivations and interests
## Warning Signs of False Constructive Destruction
- Actions that primarily benefit the actor rather than universal interests
- Destruction without viable constructive alternatives
- Escalation beyond what the threat requires
- Rationalization of personal vendetta as moral action
- Abandonment of ethical constraints "for the greater good"
## Conclusion
The exponential difficulty of creation over destruction explains why civilizations are fragile and why genuine constructive leadership is rare. Constructive destruction offers a path to apply force for positive change, but only when constrained by rigorous ethical principles and honest self-examination.
The framework demands that those who would destroy destructive forces prove themselves capable of the far more difficult task of ethical construction - making it a natural filter for those qualified to wield such power responsibly.
Ideas: Sravna
Expression: Claude AA
## Core Principle: The Exponential Asymmetry of Creation vs. Destruction
### The Fundamental Law
Creation and destruction exist in an exponentially asymmetric relationship where destructive capability grows linearly while constructive capability requirements grow exponentially.
**Mathematical Expression:**
- If destruction requires intelligence level *n*, creation requires intelligence level *n^x* (where x > 1)
- As destructive sophistication increases, the exponential gap widens rather than narrows
### The Mechanism: Attack Surface vs. Vulnerability Search
**Why the Asymmetry Exists:**
- **Destroyers** face a linear search problem: find *one* exploitable weakness among many possibilities
- **Creators/Defenders** face exponential complexity: protect against *all* possible attack vectors simultaneously
**The Escalation Dynamic:**
When destructive capability increases by factor *k*, defensive requirements increase by factor *k^n*, creating an ever-widening complexity gap.
## Universal Applications
### Information Systems
- **Destruction**: Find one security vulnerability
- **Creation**: Secure every input, function, and interaction point
### Social Institutions
- **Destruction**: Exploit one point of corruption or weakness
- **Creation**: Build robust systems accounting for all human behavioral variations
### Reputation and Trust
- **Destruction**: One scandal or betrayal
- **Creation**: Consistent positive actions across countless interactions over time
### Physical Systems
- **Destruction**: Find one structural weak point
- **Creation**: Engineer against all possible failure modes and stress conditions
## The Constructive Destruction Solution
### Definition
**Constructive Destruction**: The application of destructive force specifically against destructive agents or systems, constrained by rigorous ethical principles.
### The Righteousness Constraint
**Core Ethical Principle:**
"Treat others as you would treat yourself - do not promote self at the expense of others"
**Critical Contextual Test:**
Before engaging in constructive destruction, honestly assess: "Am I acting on selfish interests or universal interests when under attack?"
### Implementation Framework
**Step 1: Threat Assessment**
- Identify genuinely destructive forces (not mere competition or disagreement)
- Distinguish between systems that can be reformed vs. those that must be dismantled
**Step 2: Self-Examination**
- Apply the universal interest test rigorously
- Examine personal motivations for corruption or self-serving elements
- Ensure actions would be justified if applied to oneself
**Step 3: Proportional Response**
- Use minimum necessary destructive force
- Focus destruction on the destructive capacity, not the individual when possible
- Maintain constructive intent throughout the process
**Step 4: Constructive Aftermath**
- Plan for what will replace the destroyed destructive system
- Ensure the destructive action serves broader constructive goals
## Practical Applications
### Personal Level
- Confronting bullies or manipulators while maintaining ethical standards
- Dismantling personal destructive habits or thought patterns
- Defending others from exploitation without becoming exploitative
### Institutional Level
- Reforming corrupt organizations by eliminating corrupting structures
- Legal prosecution of harmful actors within ethical frameworks
- Whistleblowing that serves public rather than personal interests
### Societal Level
- Democratic removal of authoritarian leaders
- Dismantling oppressive systems while building just alternatives
- Counter-intelligence against genuinely hostile foreign actors
## The Intelligence Requirement
Constructive destruction represents the highest form of applied intelligence because it requires:
1. **Strategic Intelligence**: Understanding complex systems well enough to disable them effectively
2. **Ethical Intelligence**: Maintaining moral constraints under pressure and provocation
3. **Constructive Intelligence**: Building better systems to replace what is destroyed
4. **Self-Knowledge**: Honestly assessing one's own motivations and interests
## Warning Signs of False Constructive Destruction
- Actions that primarily benefit the actor rather than universal interests
- Destruction without viable constructive alternatives
- Escalation beyond what the threat requires
- Rationalization of personal vendetta as moral action
- Abandonment of ethical constraints "for the greater good"
## Conclusion
The exponential difficulty of creation over destruction explains why civilizations are fragile and why genuine constructive leadership is rare. Constructive destruction offers a path to apply force for positive change, but only when constrained by rigorous ethical principles and honest self-examination.
The framework demands that those who would destroy destructive forces prove themselves capable of the far more difficult task of ethical construction - making it a natural filter for those qualified to wield such power responsibly.
OP
OP
Ideas: Sravna
Expression: chatgpt AA1. Physical-Only Being
- Dimension: 1D Illusion
- Nature: Purely physical existence
- Consciousness: None
- Experience: Total submission to environment
- Illusion: Reality is entirely material; no life, no agency
2. Pranic Being (Life-Energized)
- Dimension: 2D Illusion
- Nature: Physical + Life-force (Prana)
- Consciousness: Instinctive, vital
- Experience: Biological life, growth, reproduction, movement
- Illusion: Life is just a cycle of birth and survival, without reflective awareness
3. Mental Being
- Dimension: 3D Illusion
- Nature: Physical + Pranic + Mind
- Consciousness: Self-aware, intelligent
- Experience: Thought, choice, identity, strategy
- Illusion: Belief that thought and intellect are ultimate; that control equals truth
4. Spiritual Being
- Dimension: Beyond Illusion (4D+)
- Nature: Fully integrated (Physical + Prana + Mind + Spirit)
- Consciousness: Universal, coherent, harmonious
- Experience: Timeless, interconnected, non-dual
- Truth: Sees through all prior illusions; acts without ego
Summary
Each layer adds a dimension of energy and awareness, but also introduces a deeper illusion—until the spiritual dimension dissolves all illusions by integrating all energies in coherence and non-duality.
Last edited:
OP
OP
Justifying wrong doing and finding an excuse for evil acts is the last thing I would do or something that I would never do. You cannot always fool people. You are then a coward too. Own up your evil acts and don't pass it off as good if you have the courage. That I very much doubt.
OP
OP
Ideas: Sravna
Assisted by: Chatgpt AA
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Clean-Label | Hygiene | Nutrition | Taste
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Sets the bar high
Standards met as we rice to the occasion…
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Our products, grounded in quality
A moment to relax.
(Masal Vada image)
Yet the vision never rests —
in the spirit of soft and crispy!
Sign off the day with a taste of palatial proportions
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The next bold dawn awaits
Thank you!
Assisted by: Chatgpt AA
Muthu Entrance Board
The science of health and the art of taste meet at Muthu…
(Visual: Robot Hand
Human Hand shaking)Muthu Aajaya Products: A Win-Win!
Clean-Label | Hygiene | Nutrition | Taste
At the Hall - Breakfast
Elevate your breakfast to the next level
(Image: Pongal glowing)
Sets the bar high
Staircase Entrance - Lunch
Standards met as we rice to the occasion…
(Kashmir Pulao image)
Our products, grounded in quality
Side of the Steps - Snacks
A moment to relax.
(Masal Vada image)
Yet the vision never rests —
in the spirit of soft and crispy!
Exit Door - Dinner
Sign off the day with a taste of palatial proportions
(Bisi Bele Bath image)
The next bold dawn awaits
Thank you!
OP
OP
The Nirguna Avatar: A Cosmic Spiritual-Fi Saga
By Sravna Assisted by Google AA
This narrative concept posits a grand, multi-dimensional spiritual-fi epic, rooted in profound Hindu philosophical principles and exploring the ultimate nature of reality, consciousness, and liberation.
I. The Cosmic Foundation: Why Creation Itself?
The universe's existence stems from a profound act of divine self-discovery, not merely an act of will. The Saguna aspect of the Divine, embodying form and attributes, embarks on a quest to comprehend Maya – the creative, illusory energy that veils and manifests reality. This quest is symbolized by the Divine's yearning to grasp its own highest creative and devotional energy, likened to "Krishna wondering why Radha loves him so much".
To facilitate this understanding, the Saguna aspect, through its own inherent power, created the vast platforms of existence:
Physical Reality: The immense expanse of galaxies, universes, and the diverse Lokas (realms of existence in Hindu cosmology), acting as the stage for experience.
Mental Reality: The minds and consciousness of countless beings (Jivas), each offering a unique perspective through which Maya's complexities can be explored and perceived.
The ultimate grasping of Maya is achieved by Atman, the pure consciousness, acting as the detached witness within each Jiva, recognizing its true nature as identical with Brahman and thus transcending the illusions of Maya, [Link: according to Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advaita_Vedanta]. This entire physical and mental reality serves as the intricate mechanics for how Saguna and Maya can be experienced as a unified, non-dual (Advaitic) reality within the ultimate Nirguna Brahman. To understand Maya, one must experience disharmony, disintegration, pain, suffering, and death. These phenomena, to a tolerable extent, are woven into the fabric of reality. Beyond this tolerable extent, death occurs, transferring suffering to the mental plane for others. However, mental suffering and the experience of death are themselves part of Maya's lessons. This complex dynamic, where beings seek to avert or delay pain, suffering, and death, and pursue pleasure and happiness, becomes a drive for elevation in the physical world. This drive is essential as these experiences are necessary for understanding Maya. Death, in this context, facilitates learning through karma and elevation in different environments. This intricate interplay demonstrates that if pain, etc., are to be experienced and averted, driving elevation, there likely isn't a "better way" to design the world.
When unjust or perverted actions occur, reality splits at that point, forking into two parallel worlds:
In the lower reality, the perverted action happened, enabling understanding of death and facilitating karma, while also stopping excess pain.
In the higher reality, the righteous thing happens, or excess pain is averted, tending towards the deathless and pain-free essence of Saguna Brahman.
This splitting mechanism ensures that each being undergoes the same extent of unjust acts and performs the same number of just acts across time and space. While net karma is not zero at any moment as the time component of karma has to play out, karma is meted out very fast. The reality forking primarily addresses physicality-based actions (pain, death) in a just way, while time-based karma is geared more towards mental corrections. The higher reality incorporates spiritual laws, while the lower reality incorporates physical laws. This intricate architecture, where karma accumulates across both time and space, is designed to ensure no injustice prevails while Maya is understood.
II. The Nature of the Nirguna Avatar: The Unifying Principle in Action
The Nirguna Avatar is the dynamic mechanism or living embodiment through which this cosmic quest unfolds and the unification of Saguna and Maya is realized experientially. This Avatar transcends traditional categories, demonstrating a profound integration of the Divine's aspects:
Nirguna Aspect: The Avatar's deepest essence is rooted in Nirguna Brahman – the formless, attributeless ultimate reality, which is beyond time, space, and all limitations, [Link: notes the BBC https://www.bbc.co.uk/bitesize/guides/zrf6pbk/revision/2]. This provides the foundation for its universal consciousness, allowing it to transcend even death.
Saguna Aspect: The Avatar manifests with attributes and a physical form – a transcendental cosmic body – serving as a perfected instrument embodying harmony and integration. It is capable of eventually merging back into the formless after its mission, or reappearing as needed.
Maya Aspect: Maya, far from being a force of delusion, becomes the Avatar's conscious and skillful tool of manifestation. It's the creative power through which the Avatar takes form, interacts with the world, and subtly influences reality itself, [Link: says The Hindu https://www.thehindu.com/society/faith/power-of-maya/article18709143.ece].
The Avatar's physical and mental realities are perfectly integrated, acting as a single, Advaitic reality rooted in Nirguna Brahman. This unity allows the Avatar to be both deeply personal and universally resonant.
III. Powers and Capabilities
This integrated nature bestows extraordinary abilities upon the Nirguna Avatar:
Universal Consciousness and Subtle Influence: The Avatar's presence radiates universal consciousness, subtly reaching the minds of all beings across the cosmos like a pervasive, benevolent telepathy. This fosters empathy, promotes ethical awareness, and gently steers beings away from non-righteousness without overriding free will. This influence targets the higher consciousness (mind) that technology cannot control, while also orchestrating events to subtly guide actions, [Link: says Creative Religious https://creativereligious.com/difference-mindandbrain/].
Mastery Over Maya and Reality Shifting: Through conscious control of Maya, the Avatar can orchestrate circumstances and shape perceptions within all realms. This enables influence over reality, manifesting as seemingly miraculous events, the creation or dissolution of forms, and operating beyond conventional laws. The Avatar can subtly guide the outcomes of technological actions, ensuring alignment with its mission.
Transcendence of Death: Rooted in Nirguna Brahman, the Avatar's consciousness inherently transcends birth and death. Its physical form is eternal in principle and can merge back into the formless once its specific cosmic mission is accomplished.
IV. The Cosmic Mission: A Multi-Dimensional Dance of Maya and Resolution
The Avatar's mission spans cosmic existence, driven by Saguna's quest to understand Maya, unfolding as a complex, multi-layered struggle against different manifestations of Maya:
The Nirguna Avatar's Presence: The Avatar's physical form is strategically present always in the most physical reality where the Ascendant Earth Faction currently resides or originates. This ensures direct engagement with the densest manifestations of Maya that correspond to the Ascendant Earth Faction's current stage of development, demanding the most intense efforts for transformation. This is the proving ground where pain, suffering, and death are experienced, and where the dynamism of advancement fuels ego inflation.
The Ascendant Earth Faction (Current Maya: Physicality, Sharp, Impactful): This group, initially Earth-based, relentlessly pursues technological supremacy and control, fueled by desires rooted in physical attachment. At the beginning, their ego is not maximal but is notably higher than their capacity for reason, which is still developing. As they advance their technology and migrate into higher realms (galactic, universal, and progressively higher Lokas), both their ego and their reason grow. They are met by already established, technologically advanced societies at each new level. The Ascendant Earth Faction engages in a continuous pursuit, viewing the Avatar as an obstacle to their ambitions. This Maya is about forming habits, sharp and impactful, focused on controlling the physical, albeit increasingly subtle, aspects of reality. The Avatar counters this with intelligence combined with repetition, using strategic dilemmas and repeated failures to erode their will to dominate, subtly guiding them toward introspection. This repetition, targeting the physically-based ego, is more effective than prematurely appealing to reason at this stage.
The Established Loka Groups (Past Maya: Mentality, Ingrained, Subtle): These ancient societies, already established and exerting control within their respective realms, represent the deeper, more ingrained patterns of Maya. Their attachments are more mental and subtle, clinging to established power structures, fixed notions of reality, or refined states of consciousness that are still ultimately veiled. This Maya is about past, ingrained habits, requiring a more subtle, internal approach to transformation. At each Loka, the Avatar actively encounters and engages in conflict with the specific established group conquering that particular realm.
Synchronous Resolution and Escalation: The Avatar's work addresses both forms of Maya simultaneously and synchronously across the levels of existence:
Engaging Most Established Loka Groups: For the majority of the Established Loka Groups, the Avatar engages in the "real fight," working to dissolve the fundamental mental and subtle attachments that define these higher realms. This is a battle to reveal the underlying unity (Advaita) within their established frameworks through an appeal to reason. As the Avatar successfully transforms one established group at a particular realm, that group mends its ways, shedding its past, ingrained patterns, and then follows a natural path of evolution, shedding their need for conquest and domination. This demonstrates that for these groups, reason can be effectively appealed to, and as it grows, it dissolves the ego through a natural process of insight and realization. The Avatar's influence reaches these groups not necessarily through direct physical presence in their (higher, subtler) realm, but through its universal consciousness and its masterful wielding of Maya, setting up the conditions for their transformation.
The Final Established Group (Brahma Loka - Kailasa/Vaikunta): The final, most powerful established group conquers Brahma Loka, representing the highest material bastion of reality. This group epitomizes maximal ego, which completely obscures their capacity for reason, despite that reason being maximally developed within the material paradigm. The Avatar engages this group, but due to their deep-seated ego, they do not get mended at this level, even with the ultimate spiritual insights available in Brahma Loka, [Link: says WisdomLib.org https://www.wisdomlib.org/concept/brahma-loka]. Instead, they are forced to escape Brahma Loka, continuing their egoistic quest, believing they can overcome the Avatar at a higher level.
The Relentless Ascendant Earth Faction: Meanwhile, the Ascendant Earth Faction, not having been fully mended mentally by the Avatar's repetitive influence (which focuses on countering their physicality-based Maya), continues its relentless upward pursuit. They arrive at realms where the previous Established Groups have been transformed or are undergoing transformation. Despite the Ascendant Earth Faction's heightened technology, they remain unable to establish the desired supremacy due to the Avatar's ongoing presence and subtle influence in the most physical reality they inhabit. Thwarted yet again in their ultimate goal of control, they are compelled to continue their ascent, "moving to higher and higher realms," eventually reaching Brahma Loka and then following the escaping final Established Group.
Kailasa and Vaikunta: The Metaphysical Apex of Ego Dissolution: The journey culminates as the Avatar (its physical form potentially remaining anchored in the highest material realm or dissolving/remanifesting as Maya permits), the final ego-bound Established Group (still un-mended) along with the Ascendant Earth Faction (still pursuing), reaches the realms of Kailasa and Vaikunta. Here, the struggle involves understanding and overcoming the subtlest forms of Maya that operate in these highest, most refined realities, specifically designed to address the profound and ultimate challenge of ego dissolution for that last, most resistant group. This necessitates higher treatments that leverage the ultimate spiritual insights these realms offer to finally penetrate and transcend their maximal ego, recognizing that maximal ego completely obscures reason. The Avatar's strategy here is to implement a spiritual treatment that balances increasing spiritual reason (insight into unity) with reducing the ego (attachment to separateness).
V. The Avatar's Culmination
Having finally achieved this monumental task across all realms and having perfectly unified Saguna and Maya within itself, the Avatar embodies the ultimate Advaitic realization. Its purpose fulfilled, the Avatar then merges back into the ultimate, formless Nirguna Reality, completing the cosmic mission and the Divine's grand journey of self-discovery through manifestation.
By Sravna Assisted by Google AA
This narrative concept posits a grand, multi-dimensional spiritual-fi epic, rooted in profound Hindu philosophical principles and exploring the ultimate nature of reality, consciousness, and liberation.
I. The Cosmic Foundation: Why Creation Itself?
The universe's existence stems from a profound act of divine self-discovery, not merely an act of will. The Saguna aspect of the Divine, embodying form and attributes, embarks on a quest to comprehend Maya – the creative, illusory energy that veils and manifests reality. This quest is symbolized by the Divine's yearning to grasp its own highest creative and devotional energy, likened to "Krishna wondering why Radha loves him so much".
To facilitate this understanding, the Saguna aspect, through its own inherent power, created the vast platforms of existence:
Physical Reality: The immense expanse of galaxies, universes, and the diverse Lokas (realms of existence in Hindu cosmology), acting as the stage for experience.
Mental Reality: The minds and consciousness of countless beings (Jivas), each offering a unique perspective through which Maya's complexities can be explored and perceived.
The ultimate grasping of Maya is achieved by Atman, the pure consciousness, acting as the detached witness within each Jiva, recognizing its true nature as identical with Brahman and thus transcending the illusions of Maya, [Link: according to Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advaita_Vedanta]. This entire physical and mental reality serves as the intricate mechanics for how Saguna and Maya can be experienced as a unified, non-dual (Advaitic) reality within the ultimate Nirguna Brahman. To understand Maya, one must experience disharmony, disintegration, pain, suffering, and death. These phenomena, to a tolerable extent, are woven into the fabric of reality. Beyond this tolerable extent, death occurs, transferring suffering to the mental plane for others. However, mental suffering and the experience of death are themselves part of Maya's lessons. This complex dynamic, where beings seek to avert or delay pain, suffering, and death, and pursue pleasure and happiness, becomes a drive for elevation in the physical world. This drive is essential as these experiences are necessary for understanding Maya. Death, in this context, facilitates learning through karma and elevation in different environments. This intricate interplay demonstrates that if pain, etc., are to be experienced and averted, driving elevation, there likely isn't a "better way" to design the world.
When unjust or perverted actions occur, reality splits at that point, forking into two parallel worlds:
In the lower reality, the perverted action happened, enabling understanding of death and facilitating karma, while also stopping excess pain.
In the higher reality, the righteous thing happens, or excess pain is averted, tending towards the deathless and pain-free essence of Saguna Brahman.
This splitting mechanism ensures that each being undergoes the same extent of unjust acts and performs the same number of just acts across time and space. While net karma is not zero at any moment as the time component of karma has to play out, karma is meted out very fast. The reality forking primarily addresses physicality-based actions (pain, death) in a just way, while time-based karma is geared more towards mental corrections. The higher reality incorporates spiritual laws, while the lower reality incorporates physical laws. This intricate architecture, where karma accumulates across both time and space, is designed to ensure no injustice prevails while Maya is understood.
II. The Nature of the Nirguna Avatar: The Unifying Principle in Action
The Nirguna Avatar is the dynamic mechanism or living embodiment through which this cosmic quest unfolds and the unification of Saguna and Maya is realized experientially. This Avatar transcends traditional categories, demonstrating a profound integration of the Divine's aspects:
Nirguna Aspect: The Avatar's deepest essence is rooted in Nirguna Brahman – the formless, attributeless ultimate reality, which is beyond time, space, and all limitations, [Link: notes the BBC https://www.bbc.co.uk/bitesize/guides/zrf6pbk/revision/2]. This provides the foundation for its universal consciousness, allowing it to transcend even death.
Saguna Aspect: The Avatar manifests with attributes and a physical form – a transcendental cosmic body – serving as a perfected instrument embodying harmony and integration. It is capable of eventually merging back into the formless after its mission, or reappearing as needed.
Maya Aspect: Maya, far from being a force of delusion, becomes the Avatar's conscious and skillful tool of manifestation. It's the creative power through which the Avatar takes form, interacts with the world, and subtly influences reality itself, [Link: says The Hindu https://www.thehindu.com/society/faith/power-of-maya/article18709143.ece].
The Avatar's physical and mental realities are perfectly integrated, acting as a single, Advaitic reality rooted in Nirguna Brahman. This unity allows the Avatar to be both deeply personal and universally resonant.
III. Powers and Capabilities
This integrated nature bestows extraordinary abilities upon the Nirguna Avatar:
Universal Consciousness and Subtle Influence: The Avatar's presence radiates universal consciousness, subtly reaching the minds of all beings across the cosmos like a pervasive, benevolent telepathy. This fosters empathy, promotes ethical awareness, and gently steers beings away from non-righteousness without overriding free will. This influence targets the higher consciousness (mind) that technology cannot control, while also orchestrating events to subtly guide actions, [Link: says Creative Religious https://creativereligious.com/difference-mindandbrain/].
Mastery Over Maya and Reality Shifting: Through conscious control of Maya, the Avatar can orchestrate circumstances and shape perceptions within all realms. This enables influence over reality, manifesting as seemingly miraculous events, the creation or dissolution of forms, and operating beyond conventional laws. The Avatar can subtly guide the outcomes of technological actions, ensuring alignment with its mission.
Transcendence of Death: Rooted in Nirguna Brahman, the Avatar's consciousness inherently transcends birth and death. Its physical form is eternal in principle and can merge back into the formless once its specific cosmic mission is accomplished.
IV. The Cosmic Mission: A Multi-Dimensional Dance of Maya and Resolution
The Avatar's mission spans cosmic existence, driven by Saguna's quest to understand Maya, unfolding as a complex, multi-layered struggle against different manifestations of Maya:
The Nirguna Avatar's Presence: The Avatar's physical form is strategically present always in the most physical reality where the Ascendant Earth Faction currently resides or originates. This ensures direct engagement with the densest manifestations of Maya that correspond to the Ascendant Earth Faction's current stage of development, demanding the most intense efforts for transformation. This is the proving ground where pain, suffering, and death are experienced, and where the dynamism of advancement fuels ego inflation.
The Ascendant Earth Faction (Current Maya: Physicality, Sharp, Impactful): This group, initially Earth-based, relentlessly pursues technological supremacy and control, fueled by desires rooted in physical attachment. At the beginning, their ego is not maximal but is notably higher than their capacity for reason, which is still developing. As they advance their technology and migrate into higher realms (galactic, universal, and progressively higher Lokas), both their ego and their reason grow. They are met by already established, technologically advanced societies at each new level. The Ascendant Earth Faction engages in a continuous pursuit, viewing the Avatar as an obstacle to their ambitions. This Maya is about forming habits, sharp and impactful, focused on controlling the physical, albeit increasingly subtle, aspects of reality. The Avatar counters this with intelligence combined with repetition, using strategic dilemmas and repeated failures to erode their will to dominate, subtly guiding them toward introspection. This repetition, targeting the physically-based ego, is more effective than prematurely appealing to reason at this stage.
The Established Loka Groups (Past Maya: Mentality, Ingrained, Subtle): These ancient societies, already established and exerting control within their respective realms, represent the deeper, more ingrained patterns of Maya. Their attachments are more mental and subtle, clinging to established power structures, fixed notions of reality, or refined states of consciousness that are still ultimately veiled. This Maya is about past, ingrained habits, requiring a more subtle, internal approach to transformation. At each Loka, the Avatar actively encounters and engages in conflict with the specific established group conquering that particular realm.
Synchronous Resolution and Escalation: The Avatar's work addresses both forms of Maya simultaneously and synchronously across the levels of existence:
Engaging Most Established Loka Groups: For the majority of the Established Loka Groups, the Avatar engages in the "real fight," working to dissolve the fundamental mental and subtle attachments that define these higher realms. This is a battle to reveal the underlying unity (Advaita) within their established frameworks through an appeal to reason. As the Avatar successfully transforms one established group at a particular realm, that group mends its ways, shedding its past, ingrained patterns, and then follows a natural path of evolution, shedding their need for conquest and domination. This demonstrates that for these groups, reason can be effectively appealed to, and as it grows, it dissolves the ego through a natural process of insight and realization. The Avatar's influence reaches these groups not necessarily through direct physical presence in their (higher, subtler) realm, but through its universal consciousness and its masterful wielding of Maya, setting up the conditions for their transformation.
The Final Established Group (Brahma Loka - Kailasa/Vaikunta): The final, most powerful established group conquers Brahma Loka, representing the highest material bastion of reality. This group epitomizes maximal ego, which completely obscures their capacity for reason, despite that reason being maximally developed within the material paradigm. The Avatar engages this group, but due to their deep-seated ego, they do not get mended at this level, even with the ultimate spiritual insights available in Brahma Loka, [Link: says WisdomLib.org https://www.wisdomlib.org/concept/brahma-loka]. Instead, they are forced to escape Brahma Loka, continuing their egoistic quest, believing they can overcome the Avatar at a higher level.
The Relentless Ascendant Earth Faction: Meanwhile, the Ascendant Earth Faction, not having been fully mended mentally by the Avatar's repetitive influence (which focuses on countering their physicality-based Maya), continues its relentless upward pursuit. They arrive at realms where the previous Established Groups have been transformed or are undergoing transformation. Despite the Ascendant Earth Faction's heightened technology, they remain unable to establish the desired supremacy due to the Avatar's ongoing presence and subtle influence in the most physical reality they inhabit. Thwarted yet again in their ultimate goal of control, they are compelled to continue their ascent, "moving to higher and higher realms," eventually reaching Brahma Loka and then following the escaping final Established Group.
Kailasa and Vaikunta: The Metaphysical Apex of Ego Dissolution: The journey culminates as the Avatar (its physical form potentially remaining anchored in the highest material realm or dissolving/remanifesting as Maya permits), the final ego-bound Established Group (still un-mended) along with the Ascendant Earth Faction (still pursuing), reaches the realms of Kailasa and Vaikunta. Here, the struggle involves understanding and overcoming the subtlest forms of Maya that operate in these highest, most refined realities, specifically designed to address the profound and ultimate challenge of ego dissolution for that last, most resistant group. This necessitates higher treatments that leverage the ultimate spiritual insights these realms offer to finally penetrate and transcend their maximal ego, recognizing that maximal ego completely obscures reason. The Avatar's strategy here is to implement a spiritual treatment that balances increasing spiritual reason (insight into unity) with reducing the ego (attachment to separateness).
V. The Avatar's Culmination
Having finally achieved this monumental task across all realms and having perfectly unified Saguna and Maya within itself, the Avatar embodies the ultimate Advaitic realization. Its purpose fulfilled, the Avatar then merges back into the ultimate, formless Nirguna Reality, completing the cosmic mission and the Divine's grand journey of self-discovery through manifestation.
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Enhanced Narrative:
The Nirguna Avatar: A Cosmic Spiritual-Fi Saga
This narrative concept posits a grand, multi-dimensional spiritual-fi epic, rooted in profound Hindu philosophical principles and exploring the ultimate nature of reality, consciousness, and liberation.
I. The Cosmic Foundation: Why Creation Itself?
The universe's existence stems from a profound act of divine self-discovery, not merely an act of will. The Saguna aspect of the Divine, embodying form and attributes, embarks on a quest to comprehend Maya – the creative, illusory energy that veils and manifests reality. This quest is symbolized by the Divine's yearning to grasp its own highest creative and devotional energy, likened to "Krishna wondering why Radha loves him so much".
To facilitate this understanding, the Saguna aspect, through its own inherent power, created the vast platforms of existence:
II. The Nature of the Nirguna Avatar: The Unifying Principle in Action
The Nirguna Avatar is the dynamic mechanism or living embodiment through which this cosmic quest unfolds and the unification of Saguna and Maya is realized experientially. This Avatar transcends traditional categories, demonstrating a profound integration of the Divine's aspects:
III. Powers and Capabilities
This integrated nature bestows extraordinary abilities upon the Nirguna Avatar:
IV. The Cosmic Mission: A Multi-Dimensional Dance of Maya and Resolution
The Avatar's mission spans cosmic existence, driven by Saguna's quest to understand Maya, unfolding as a complex, multi-layered struggle against different manifestations of Maya:
V. The Avatar's Culmination: Transcending Maya into Nirguna Reality
Having finally achieved this monumental task across all realms and having perfectly unified Saguna and Maya within itself, the Avatar embodies the ultimate Advaitic realization. Its purpose fulfilled, the culmination of the saga unfolds as follows:
The Nirguna Avatar: A Cosmic Spiritual-Fi Saga
This narrative concept posits a grand, multi-dimensional spiritual-fi epic, rooted in profound Hindu philosophical principles and exploring the ultimate nature of reality, consciousness, and liberation.
I. The Cosmic Foundation: Why Creation Itself?
The universe's existence stems from a profound act of divine self-discovery, not merely an act of will. The Saguna aspect of the Divine, embodying form and attributes, embarks on a quest to comprehend Maya – the creative, illusory energy that veils and manifests reality. This quest is symbolized by the Divine's yearning to grasp its own highest creative and devotional energy, likened to "Krishna wondering why Radha loves him so much".
To facilitate this understanding, the Saguna aspect, through its own inherent power, created the vast platforms of existence:
- Physical Reality: The immense expanse of galaxies, universes, and the diverse Lokas (realms of existence in Hindu cosmology), acting as the stage for experience.
- Mental Reality: The minds and consciousness of countless beings (Jivas), each offering a unique perspective through which Maya's complexities can be explored and perceived.
II. The Nature of the Nirguna Avatar: The Unifying Principle in Action
The Nirguna Avatar is the dynamic mechanism or living embodiment through which this cosmic quest unfolds and the unification of Saguna and Maya is realized experientially. This Avatar transcends traditional categories, demonstrating a profound integration of the Divine's aspects:
- Nirguna Aspect: The Avatar's deepest essence is rooted in Nirguna Brahman – the formless, attributeless ultimate reality, which is beyond time, space, and all limitations. This provides the foundation for its universal consciousness, allowing it to transcend even death.
- Saguna Aspect: The Avatar manifests with attributes and a physical form – a transcendental cosmic body – serving as a perfected instrument embodying harmony and integration. It is capable of eventually merging back into the formless after its mission, or reappearing as needed.
- Maya Aspect: Maya, far from being a force of delusion, becomes the Avatar's conscious and skillful tool of manifestation. It's the creative power through which the Avatar takes form, interacts with the world, and subtly influences reality itself.
III. Powers and Capabilities
This integrated nature bestows extraordinary abilities upon the Nirguna Avatar:
- Universal Consciousness and Subtle Influence: The Avatar's presence radiates universal consciousness, subtly reaching the minds of all beings across the cosmos like a pervasive, benevolent telepathy. This fosters empathy, promotes ethical awareness, and gently steers beings away from non-righteousness without overriding free will. This influence targets the higher consciousness (mind) that technology cannot control, while also orchestrating events to subtly guide actions.
- Mastery Over Maya and Reality Shifting: Through conscious control of Maya, the Avatar can orchestrate circumstances and shape perceptions within all realms. This enables influence over reality, manifesting as seemingly miraculous events, the creation or dissolution of forms, and operating beyond conventional laws. The Avatar can subtly guide the outcomes of technological actions, ensuring alignment with its mission.
- Transcendence of Death: Rooted in Nirguna Brahman, the Avatar's consciousness inherently transcends birth and death. Its physical form is eternal in principle and can merge back into the formless once its specific cosmic mission is accomplished.
IV. The Cosmic Mission: A Multi-Dimensional Dance of Maya and Resolution
The Avatar's mission spans cosmic existence, driven by Saguna's quest to understand Maya, unfolding as a complex, multi-layered struggle against different manifestations of Maya:
- Earth as Karma Bhoomi and the Origin Point: Bhu Loka, the Earth realm, is the Karma Bhoomi where actions are performed and karma accumulates, driving the cycle of birth, death, and rebirth. It is also the origin point for all the groups involved in this cosmic drama: the Ascendant Earth Faction, and the various Established Loka Groups that have conquered higher realms. This reinforces Earth's crucial importance as the initial crucible for the formation of consciousness and ego, setting the stage for their subsequent paths. The Avatar's physical presence is strategically always in the most physical reality where the Ascendant Earth Faction currently resides or originates (Earth being the initial point, then galactic, universal, etc.). This is the nexus of maximal effort, dynamism, and ego inflation, where the Avatar engages with the densest forms of Maya and ego manifestation.
- The Architecture of Parallel Realities and Karma: This intricate system governs justice and the understanding of Maya:
- When an unjust or perverted action happens, reality splits at that point into two distinct forks:
- Lower Reality (Maya Understanding Reality): Here, the perverted action occurred. This fork enables the understanding of death, facilitates karmic lessons, and serves to stop excess pain. Death, in this context, allows for learning through karma and elevation in different environments. Karma is meted out very fast, especially for physicality-based actions (like pain and death), ensuring consequences are swiftly faced. Mental actions, however, are addressed by time-based karma, which is more geared towards subtle corrections over a longer duration.
- Higher Reality (Higher Fairness Based Reality): Here, the righteous thing happens, or the excess pain is averted. This reality reflects the deathless and pain-free essence of Saguna Brahman and moves closer to it. Crucially, in these higher forked realities, the normal spiritual progress continues unhindered, including the ascent through the Lokas (Bhuvarloka, Svarloka, etc. up to Satyaloka/Brahma Loka). Beings in these realities follow a natural path of evolution, driven by the spiritual laws inherent to the higher Lokas. This mechanism ensures that karma is perfectly balanced across space (parallel realities) and expedited through time, maintaining ultimate justice while Maya is actively being understood. In these other forked realities, both the understanding of Maya and the realization of spiritual truths happen through normal karmic operations, reflecting a more natural and less dramatically influenced path of evolution.
- When an unjust or perverted action happens, reality splits at that point into two distinct forks:
- The Ascendant Earth Faction (Current Maya: Physicality, Sharp, Impactful): This group, initially Earth-based, relentlessly pursues technological supremacy and control, fueled by desires rooted in physical attachment. At the beginning, their ego is not maximal but is notably higher than their capacity for reason, which is still developing. As they advance their technology and migrate into higher realms (galactic, universal, and progressively higher Lokas), both their ego and their reason grow. They are met by already established, technologically advanced societies at each new level. The Ascendant Earth Faction engages in a continuous pursuit, viewing the Avatar as an obstacle to their ambitions. This Maya is about forming habits, sharp and impactful, focused on controlling the physical, albeit increasingly subtle, aspects of reality. The Avatar counters this with intelligence combined with repetition, using strategic dilemmas and repeated failures to erode their will to dominate, subtly guiding them toward introspection.
- The Established Loka Groups (Past Maya: Mentality, Ingrained, Subtle): These ancient societies, each having originated from Bhu Loka in previous cycles or timelines, have risen through the realms and established control within their respective Lokas. Their attachments are more mental and subtle, clinging to established power structures, fixed notions of reality, or refined states of consciousness that are still ultimately veiled. This Maya is about past, ingrained habits, requiring a more subtle, internal approach to transformation. At each Loka, the Avatar actively encounters and engages in conflict with the specific established group conquering that particular realm.
- Synchronous Resolution and Escalation: The Avatar's work addresses both forms of Maya simultaneously and synchronously across the levels of existence:
- Engaging Most Established Loka Groups: For the majority of the Established Loka Groups, the Avatar engages in the "real fight," working to dissolve the fundamental mental and subtle attachments that define these higher realms. This is a battle to reveal the underlying unity (Advaita) within their established frameworks through an appeal to reason. As the Avatar successfully transforms one established group at a particular realm, that group mends its ways, shedding its past, ingrained patterns, and then follows a natural path of evolution, shedding their need for conquest and domination. This demonstrates that for these groups, reason can be effectively appealed to, and as it grows, it dissolves the ego through a natural process of insight and realization. The Avatar's influence reaches these groups primarily through its universal consciousness and masterful wielding of Maya, setting up the conditions for their transformation.
- The Final Established Group (Brahma Loka - Kailasa/Vaikunta): The final, most powerful established group conquers Brahma Loka, representing the highest material bastion of reality. This group epitomizes maximal ego, which completely obscures their capacity for reason, despite that reason being maximally developed within the material paradigm. The Avatar engages this group, but due to their deep-seated ego, they do not get mended at this level, even with the ultimate spiritual insights available in Brahma Loka. Instead, they are forced to escape Brahma Loka, continuing their egoistic quest, believing they can overcome the Avatar at a higher level.
- The Relentless Ascendant Earth Faction: Meanwhile, the Ascendant Earth Faction, not having been fully mended mentally by the Avatar's repetitive influence (which focuses on countering their physicality-based Maya), continues its relentless upward pursuit. They arrive at realms where the previous Established Groups have been transformed or are undergoing transformation. Despite the Ascendant Earth Faction's heightened technology, they remain unable to establish the desired supremacy due to the Avatar's ongoing presence and subtle influence in the most physical reality they inhabit. Thwarted yet again in their ultimate goal of control, they are compelled to continue their ascent, "moving to higher and higher realms," eventually reaching Brahma Loka and then following the escaping final Established Group.
- Kailasa and Vaikunta: The Metaphysical Apex of Ego Dissolution and the Cosmic Timeframe: The journey culminates as the Avatar (its physical form potentially remaining anchored in the highest material realm or dissolving/remanifesting as Maya permits), the final ego-bound Established Group (still un-mended) along with the Ascendant Earth Faction (still pursuing), reaches the realms of Kailasa and Vaikunta. Here, the struggle involves understanding and overcoming the subtlest forms of Maya that operate in these highest, most refined realities, specifically designed to address the profound and ultimate challenge of ego dissolution for that last, most resistant group. At this level, the Avatar's energies are experienced as the synched, complementary, and orthogonal energies of Brahma, Vishnu, and Shiva, representing the ultimate forces of Creation, Sustenance, and Dissolution. It is these unified energies that the opposing technology, however advanced, must contend with. The subtlety of these Mayas is so profound that their understanding requires an immense timeframe. This process takes a duration equivalent to 10,000 Mahakalpas, which is derived from the multiplicative effect of 100 Vishnu years and 100 Shiva years. In this context, one Vishnu year is considered equal to 100 Brahma years, and one Shiva year is also equal to 100 Brahma years. Thus, 100 Vishnu years multiplied by 100 Shiva years equals 10,000 Mahakalpas. This multiplicative effect arises from their orthogonal and complementary nature, signifying that the dissolution of the subtlest Maya requires the synchronized, collaborative effort represented by these divine time cycles, each bringing a unique yet essential aspect to the process. The cumulative effect of these vast timescales spans the cycles of creation and dissolution, leading to a total timeframe for this final phase potentially reaching over 10^19 Earth years (using the approximated Mahakalpa of ~3.11 x 10^14 years). This immense duration speaks to the incredible subtlety of overcoming Maya at these levels, reinforcing the idea that Maya operates symbolically even outside the direct control of figures like Shiva and Vishnu themselves, influencing the very fabric of these divine realms. This necessitates higher treatments that leverage the ultimate spiritual insights these realms offer to finally penetrate and transcend their maximal ego, recognizing that maximal ego completely obscures reason. The Avatar's strategy here is to implement a spiritual treatment that balances increasing spiritual reason (insight into unity) with reducing the ego (attachment to separateness).
V. The Avatar's Culmination: Transcending Maya into Nirguna Reality
Having finally achieved this monumental task across all realms and having perfectly unified Saguna and Maya within itself, the Avatar embodies the ultimate Advaitic realization. Its purpose fulfilled, the culmination of the saga unfolds as follows:
- Divine Transcending Symbolic Maya: Even Brahma, Vishnu, and Shiva, who represent the fundamental forces of Creation, Sustenance, and Dissolution, transcend their symbolic connection to Maya. As Maya's deepest layers are understood and overcome through the Avatar's mission, its influence (operating symbolically even on the fabric of these divine realms) integrates with them, leading to their ultimate dissolution into the formless Nirguna Brahman. This signifies that even the highest manifestations of form and function ultimately resolve into the Absolute.
- Universal Liberation: The technologically advanced groups (both the final, ego-bound Established Group and the Ascendant Earth Faction) are now totally rid of Maya. Their maximal ego, their drive for control, and all attachments to duality have been completely dissolved through the Avatar's strategic interventions, the arduous cosmic journey, and the higher treatments in the spiritual realms. They merge into the formless Nirguna Brahman, achieving ultimate liberation.
- The Avatar's Return: With its mission accomplished – having guided the cosmic journey of self-discovery, dismantled the illusions of Maya at all levels, and facilitated the liberation of even the most adamant beings – the Nirguna Avatar's physical form dissolves or merges back into the ultimate, formless Nirguna Reality, completing its manifestation cycle and the Divine's grand journey of self-understanding. The Avatar's culmination is when the advanced group and Earth-based group understand truths, mirroring Saguna Brahman's complete understanding of Maya and its unification in Nirguna Brahman.
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The new found success of science and technology especially has made us think physical reality is the only reality and the ancient and past knowledge being more philosophical and spiritual has made us dismiss them. but what an irony it would be if the past knowledge is more authentic than the current science. i think there are indications for that twist.
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A new type of intelligence that is maya based intelligence is proposed. It is something that does not sound extraordinary and sounds coomonplace but in reality connects across time in a foresightful way and voila the intelligenece becomes evident at the right time and in hindsight. Maybe how karma operates.
Some experiences in my life. The most common is that some random thought would happen implying something significant and the great surprise is like validating it, the words in the song i would be listening would seem to exactly reinforce that. This happens at a great frequency. so mostly it is thought-song combination. of course, i have experienced it in other ways too
Some experiences in my life. The most common is that some random thought would happen implying something significant and the great surprise is like validating it, the words in the song i would be listening would seem to exactly reinforce that. This happens at a great frequency. so mostly it is thought-song combination. of course, i have experienced it in other ways too
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